Ban/Restriction discussion

[DJ Catchem]

This is a discussion currently ongoing over in the Classic Quarter forums - http://www.classicquarter.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=203

As originally posted by Hamtastic:

As the pretty much only place for this data to be collected (Eternal Struggle and ClassicQuarter.com), what are the communities feelings towards banning/resticting cards as needed.

The reason I bring this up is because of a few sad facts.

1) Stagnant meta's are not particularly fun.
2) 'Classic only' sets get released very infrequently
3) Not many cards in new sets make big splashes in Classic.

Like most things there are of course exceptions to those facts, but in general I believe those to be true.

So, if any particular card or combo becomes overpowered, what's the communities feelings about banning/restricting?

As has been said previously banning is almost a non-option as once there isn't a place to play a card you open what's the point?  So that pretty much leaves restrictions, which raises some questions for me.

1) How bad will it have to get before restrictions are put in place?
2) How often would the list and format be reviewed?
3) Would it be more of like: restrict just a little bit of the deck/combo and see if that weakens it enough to allow others, or would you do a lot of damage to the deck just to make sure it doesn't evolve and remain format warping?

I think this is important to discuss as a community, as Classic enjoys a lot of freedom with the cardpool, but perhaps at the expense of a very lax policing policy by Wizards.  It may very well be necessary to self-impose restrictions and/or bans on the PREs if things get out of hand in some way.  (Clearly, this is very relevant in the face of the upcoming debut of Hulk Flash online.) 

-What are the criteria we should look at? 
-How would this issue be complicated in the face of the official Constructed queues and/or any PEs that may be scheduled?

--->DJ

[Zherbus]

I think short of the Classic format being totally unplayable, they won't touch it. I think we'll have plenty of time with Flash before they determine to ban anything.

[DJ Catchem]

I think short of the Classic format being totally unplayable, they won't touch it. I think we'll have plenty of time with Flash before they determine to ban anything.

Coming from a format where there has been plenty of upheaval in the B/R list, and even a history of "player-run events" that institute their own rules (proxies, etc...), what's your take?  I agree that WotC won't touch Classic; for the sake of competetive playability, when/where should people running their own tournaments step in?  Should the Classic Quarter PRE's be governed by its' own B/R list eventually?

--->DJ 

[Zherbus]

Should the Classic Quarter PRE's be governed by its' own B/R list eventually?

We considered this on the proxy circuit of Vintage, but we didn't go with it. We WANT WotC to pay attention to it, and not blow it off as some niche format noone but a handful play. They have an interest in making it grow. The more people who play Classic, the more money they can milk off sets THEY ALREADY DESIGNED. Moving away from them is really bad for us in the long term.

[DJ Catchem]

THat makes sense.

So, in theory, if Hulk Flask proves to be a deck that absolutely destroys the Classic field, you believe the correct play is to leave it alone, and call on WotC to take action?

--->DJ

[Zherbus]

Yes. I mean, they HAVE to do something. They might also print FoW as a promo and be done with it too. They have a lot of options, really.

[Implacable]

I'm not an MTGO player myself, but from what I've read, it's basically impossible to go through infinite loops in MTGO.  If that's the case, what win condition are Hulk players going to use?

[PhilipJFry]

Hulk Flashers online have to use a Ravager/Disciple kill.  Karmic Guide isn't available to do the infinite Hasty Guides combo.  So the lack of infinite combo good ness online isn't much of a problem as of yet.

[DJ Catchem]

I'm not an MTGO player myself, but from what I've read, it's basically impossible to go through infinite loops in MTGO.  If that's the case, what win condition are Hulk players going to use?

Unfortunately, the very strict adherance to the rules the MTGO Client provides also really hurts any sort of looping in a timed game, since timing out of your alloted time in a match equals an immediate match loss.  This was a huge issue last year when Dragon was being run in the ES.  I personally had one match where I won 2-0, comboing out on my first turn in the first game and my second turn in the second game, and even then, the match nearly went to time and I won with only 25 seconds left on my game clock.  You have to click through all of the priority stops Online. 

In any case, PJF is correct on the Disciple win.  (Which some might argue is better anyway...it's certainly the combo I would choose if given the opportunity.)

--->DJ

[dangerlinto]

Don't forget - there is no such thing as infinite.  Only arbitrary.

The only real place where that matters is in life gain, where you want to set an incredibly high life total (something that say, Affinity, could never do enough damage before it decked itself).  That takes a long time and you'll lose by the clock

Even in something complicated like a Worldgorger Dragon loop where you draw every card, toss them all and then Laquatus a win only takes you 3-4 minutes at the worst, once you get used to the interface.  And since you have 30 minutes, and you are usually going off turn 3 or something, the "inifite" combo thig is no big deal.

So if Karmic Guide were online, you'd be able to make like 30 of them in under a minute.  More than enough to kill anyone.  Not a big deal.