[Deck Discussion] 4-Gush GroATog

[alvin6688]

Gat runs 2 less than the maximum number of artifact mana - the two missing are Mox Pearl and Sol Ring. Actually, some people advocate running Pearl as well. Either way, GAT makes up for it with lots of cantrips, so it'll run into a Mox before Tinker 98% of the time. As for mana, it seems that GAT nowadays has 20-21 slots for mana rather than the 18 of 2003 builds, so it's not too bad. If the fat is good enough such that Tinker is worth it in the first place, I'm sure we'd be able to make it work. The main problem, I feel, is that decks are maindecking more bounce now, so Darksteel Colossus is pretty easy to "kill".

You're probably right about Storm vs. Stax, but I distinctly remember Smemmen write in one of his GAT articles that against Stax you try to play the combo-control role. Rather than play out an early Dryad, you hold back Mana Drain and use the mana to launch directly into combo mode. In this case Tendrils would be better than Dryad or Tog. Of course this implies the inclusion of Mana Drain, which is another topic altogether.

[Xman]

I think its valid and useful to compare ToA and Dryad as kill conditions in this deck because, as i said, they both rely on you playing spells.  I don't think the decks need to be as far apart as you're making out. Esentially you could take GAT and remove the creatures to replace them with 2 storm cards. You want a full complement of artifact mana for storm but you don't need as much green and i for one think GAT should run all the accelerants anyway.

I don't think your point about the "Tendrills infastucture" being large and having large casting costs is valid. No one forces you to play Mind's Desire or Gifts in order to run Tendrils. If they are too expensive and not worth their slot: don't play them. Gifts very rarely played Mind's Desire. Actually, as i said, one of the benefits of the tendrils kill is that it is smaller. You could cut 4 Dryads, the tog and the C.Wish for 1 ToA and 1 EtW.I'd probably run rituals in the 4 free spaces I've just generated so that would help make the deck less mana tight as well.

The problem here is that they are two completely different decks.  It is very simple.  You cannot just remove Dryad & put Tendrils of agony in the deck.  It just doesn't flow right then.  There are several problems with your ocmparision.  GAT doesn't run the full compliment of Artifact mana, it is frequently short Mana Vault, Mana Crypt, Sol Ring, Mox Pearl & often Mox Ruby as well.  It doesn't run them nor does it truly need them.  Yes, some people who want ot run them can and will, but it may not be the best option.  & if you question me as to those elements, please, find any GOOD tendrils deck that doesn't run most, if not all of those.

As for the Tendrils Infrastructure, I guess I should point out that youa re right, no one says you have to run Mind's Desire or Gift's Ungiven.  They let you win significantly faster with them than without them.  So no, you don't need to have them in your deck, but it doesn't always add up without them.  With the cards you mentioned cutting, you have changed it from an aggro-control deck to a BAD combo-control deck.  There are significantly better options out there than the deck you would create.  If you think it will not be a bad deck, then make it, but I believe it should belong in the Gush-Tendrils thread which is exactly what you are trying for.

Also, you forgot one other aspect.  We are discussing Gro-A-Tog here.  A legendary Aggro-control deck that does it's role perfectly, and has dominated the format in the past to such an extent that no other single deck ever has.  When 4-Gush GAT was first unrestricted, it was absolutely amazing, and I believe Steve ran the numbers.  It comprised apporx. 40% of the overall meta that was Type 1.  In fact, I was one of those people who loved to play this deck.  I have always had the option of if I want to play combo, then I will play any one of the numerous combo decks.  And if I want to play GAT, I will play GAT.  The factor that you forgot is there are people out there who know they can win with a deck that does not include Tendrils of Agony OR Empty the Warrens.  And the fact that they enjoy playing the deck is something that is an added bonus.

Lets also not forget that GAT was immensly power before Gush was unrestricted.  Every Waterbvury there were always 2 or 3 GAT decks, and one generally ends up near the top somewhere.  I believe in the last one, it was 3rd overall?

Now, the Tinker-> DsC runs into a problem.  Not enough artifacts.  Like Purple Hat stated, you do not have a dense enough concentration of artifacts to make it reliable.

As for Stax, I believe Steve said it in his article that 4-Gush GAT Dominated the meta for so long, and then Stax came in, changed it for 1 tournament.  Once decklists were released, GAT was back obn top because it adapted.  It is very adaptable & very resiliant.  Of course wen a new deck comes out, it will distort the meta, but truly legendary decks like 4-Gush GAT always bounce back.

Stax vs. GAT.  Yes, it can be tough on the GAT player, but the GAT player generally loses not to the Stax Player, but to misassignment of role.  Basically, incase you have forgotten, one deck is Aggro & one deck is Control.  The basis of this principle is simple.  Missasignment of Role = Game Loss.  GAT has to play its role properly vs. Stax or it takes a game loss.  But that is the same with any good deck vs. any other good deck.

[alvin6688]

Xman, I know it depends on a lot of in-game factors, but generally, what role does GAT play in the Stax matchup? I always felt the control-combo role was the best to take, but that seems to require Mana Drain. Meanwhile, PurpleHat implied the aggro role in his last post (or atleast that's how I took his argument).

Second, I don't think the problem we should look at is so much Stax as it is Flash and Ichorid. Flash with 11 maindeck pitch/free counters has been tough for me to beat, unless I run a full 4 MisD, 4 FoW, 4 Duress, 4 Scroll. And Ichorid is...you know.

Steve: Did something come up in testing that caused you to drop LoA?

[Xman]

Xman, I know it depends on a lot of in-game factors, but generally, what role does GAT play in the Stax matchup? I always felt the control-combo role was the best to take, but that seems to require Mana Drain. Meanwhile, PurpleHat implied the aggro role in his last post (or atleast that's how I took his argument).

you actually have two different options depending on the build of each deck, the level of each player, & the draw you both get.  If you keep a decent contorl hand because you have drains in the board, or something like that, you can go contorl.  But you have to control the right cards.  Stop the spheres is paramount, and you can keep going un-impedid.  If you stop the Spheres, you can gro faster than they can destroy you.  If you don't have drains anywhere, go aggro, and just plain gro.

The basic game vs. Stax (if I remember correctly) is to drop an early dryad with control backup (Force/Drain preferably) and then your off to the races.  You're trying to gro your Dryad quickly before they find a way to deal with it.  afterall, Dryad is almost as fast as a clock as Tog is.  Tog is a next turn clock & Dryad is an ALMOST next turn clock.

But to be honest, I would ask ELD which role GAT should take.  I can't really remember because the last time I had this matchup was 4 years ago.  After Gush was restricted, I settled into Hulk Smash which plays the control role.

[Scyther]

I'm curious about all the sideboards.

Yixlid Jailer + Crypt + Needel is much better against Ichorid, because most Builds cant deal with creatures ( I kno... it will change...)

But what doe's this configuration against Flash?
Facing 1 6/6 after just crypting Karmic Guide/ Kiki or so is not really good...

There the 4 Leyline seem mor optimal ...

[Purple Hat]

you use your 7/7 or your 6/7 to kill their 6/6

[Scyther]

Oh, so your strongest weapon is to draw 1 of the 2 crypts, lay a Dryad, just play 6 other spells and hope dryad and crypt gets  not countered against a turn-2-kill-dec, that run more counter than you?
Sounds really good! [irony off]

Seriously preboard you have 2 REB, but most of the time a constand Disruption would not be possible. Flash in fact IS really fast.
2 crypts seems not very strong. Maybe Needle can help against feeder? But it leads to the same Problem.
IMO decks that have the possibility to even hardcast the Leyline later should auto include it at the moment in SB.

Another thing i don't get is: Street Wraith. It did nothing in this dec except replacing itself for a cost of 2 life. I know everyone knows it. This dec loses a lot life through Fetchies and Fastbond(!). A card that maybe even kills you without giving your Dryad a counter or can't be recast from Will is so poor in here. Decks like Doomsday or Ichorid abuse this card and are a no-brainer there, but in a dec that allready lose a lot of life through other effects it's nonsense, especially as a 3-of...

[Purple Hat]

if your concern is the 6/6 then it is answered as I said.  if you somehow believe that playing 6 other spells is difficult then you need to play the deck more.  or you can bounce it.  against flash, and combo in general, you're playing force of will, duress, tons of draw and a fast clock.  you do the same thing every aggro control deck does against combo.  you attempt to establish a clock while slowing your opponent down enough that you can win the game.  post board you bring in crypt to help with that, pithing needle could theoretically stop the kiki kill but I'm not sure that's being used much any more.  there are a whole host of cards that can kill a bunch of 1/1 slivers and echoing truth is also nice against that. I don't think leyline is as good against flash as you make it out to be because they're pretty likely to be able to find bounce, and if they bounce your leyline you're unlikely to be able to cast it again.  as such I think there are many better answers available to this deck than putting 4 dead cards in the board.

EDIT: I don't want to make this a habit, but to illustrate my point I thought I might give an example vs flash.  I'm <player>, there were no mulligans and I was on the play.  I've edited out most of the garbage from the log for the sake of brevity, and to make it more readable.  if a mod finds this edit to be unnecessarily cumbersome I completely understand.


Player plays Flooded Strand from Hand
<Player> End my turn


mergerat draws a card
mergerat plays Island from Hand
<mergerat> Thinking
mergerat plays Brainstorm from Hand
<mergerat> Ok?
<Player> Ok
<mergerat> End my turn
Player puts Flooded Strand to Graveyard from Play
Player's life total is now 19 (-1).
Player puts Underground Sea into play from Library


It is now turn 2 (Player)
Player draws a card
Player plays Flooded Strand from Hand
Player puts Flooded Strand to Graveyard from Play
Player's life total is now 18 (-1)
Player puts Tropical Island into play from Library
Player taps Tropical Island
Player taps Underground Sea
Player plays Quirion Dryad from Hand
<mergerat> k
<Player> End my turn


mergerat plays Island from Hand
mergerat plays Mox Emerald from Hand
<mergerat> Thinking
mergerat taps Island
mergerat taps Mox Emerald
mergerat plays Merchant Scroll from Hand
<mergerat> Ok?
<Player> Ok
mergerat puts Mystical Tutor into play from Library
mergerat taps Island
<mergerat> Ok?
<Player> Ok
mergerat puts Mystical Tutor to Graveyard from Play
mergerat puts Summoner's Pact into play from Library
mergerat puts a Summoner's Pact on top of Library from Play
<mergerat> End my turn


Player taps Underground Sea
Player taps Tropical Island
Player plays Merchant Scroll from Hand
<mergerat> Ok
Quirion Dryad now has 1 (+1) counters.
Player puts Ancestral Recall into play from Library
Player puts Ancestral Recall to Hand from Play
Player plays Polluted Delta from Hand
<Player> End my turn


mergerat plays Island from Hand
<mergerat> Thinking
mergerat taps Mox Emerald
mergerat taps Island
mergerat plays Merchant Scroll from Hand
<Player> Ok
mergerat puts Pact of Negation into play from Library
mergerat puts Pact of Negation to Hand from Play
mergerat plays Summoner's Pact from Hand
<mergerat> Ok?
<Player> Ok
mergerat puts Protean Hulk into play from Library
mergerat puts Protean Hulk to Hand from Play
mergerat taps Island
mergerat taps Island
mergerat plays Flash from Hand
Player puts Polluted Delta to Graveyard from Play
Player's life total is now 17 (-1)
Player puts Underground Sea into play from Library
Player taps Underground Sea
Player plays Ancestral Recall from Hand
<mergerat> Thinking
mergerat plays Pact of Negation from Hand
Quirion Dryad now has 2 (+1) counters.
<Player> Thinking
Player plays Gush from Hand
Player puts Tropical Island to Hand from Play
Player puts Underground Sea to Hand from Play
<mergerat> Ok
Player plays Force of Will from Hand
mergerat plays Force of Will from Hand
Player puts Brainstorm to RFG from Hand
mergerat puts Impulse to RFG from Hand
mergerat's life total is now 19 (-1)
<Player> ancestral is countered
mergerat plays Protean Hulk from Hand
Player plays Force of Will from Hand
Player puts Echoing Truth to RFG from Hand
<Player> force flash
Player's life total is now 15 (-2)
Player puts Ancestral Recall to Graveyard from Play
Quirion Dryad now has 3 (+1) counters.
Quirion Dryad now has 4 (+1) counters.
Quirion Dryad now has 5 (+1) counters.
<Player> Ok?
<Player> hello?
<Player> you there?
<System> Player Lost

the flash player could have won by not engaging in a counter war on my terms, but in that case I would have drawn 5 cards, with 5 counters left in a <50 card deck, so my odds weren't particularly bad.  but I think this example shows two things.  1) that it's very easy to get a dryad to 6/6 and 2) flash is not some all fired holy thing.  if I hadn't been holding 2 counters I probably would have played my hand differently, but by countering set up spells rather than threats or using echoing truth I believe I still would have been able to win this game.  a turn 2 goldfish is not the same as a turn 2 win in competitive play and I believe my opponent was correct to hold off for counter backup having seen that I was playing a deck with counters.  in the end it made no difference as he still lost to his pacts, but the point remains, if he'd tried to go off earlier I had counters and enough draw to restock my hand.  if he had waited longer things would have only gotten worse for him.

[Grand Inquisitor]

illustrate my point I thought I might give an example vs flash

You use an example where the Flash player doesn't put pressure on you until turn 3, and he had to tutor for both the combo and a counter?  Not that the deck draws the balls every game, but this is a really poor hand for that deck.  I doesn't seem representative.

[Purple Hat]

I don't think flash is as good as it's made out to be. also the player played somewhat conservatively.  he didn't have to tutor for the counter since he was holding force of will and a blue card.  he went for double counter backup when he could have tried with just force, but this, to me seems to highlight the point about flash having more counters.  I could show more examples, that's just the one I happened to have available to me at the moment.

the point was that you don't roll over and die vs flash and I think the example shows that.  flash wins a lot of games on turn 1 or 2.  in my experience flash doesn't win anywhere near as many games on turn 1 or 2 with the amount of backup being claimed by a lot of people and I believe that a turn 3 win with pact and force backup is representative of a choice many players would make with the deck.

[nataz]

The flash v. Gat match-up tends to be pretty intense b/c GaT is one of the few decks that can go toe to toe with Flash's 0cc/pitch counters while running duress to boot.

Most post-gush builds of Flash are simply rebuilt Gat Decks. Think about it, G/U/B base, 2 mana win conditions, pitch counters, low number of lands, gush, etc., with the main differences being Flash having more "dead" in the deck cards v. its ability to win "now" with out timewalk.

[Implacable]

The flash v. Gat match-up tends to be pretty intense b/c GaT is one of the few decks that can go toe to toe with Flash's 0cc/pitch counters while running duress to boot.

Most post-gush builds of Flash are simply rebuilt Gat Decks. Think about it, G/U/B base, 2 mana win conditions, pitch counters, low number of lands, gush, etc., with the main differences being Flash having more "dead" in the deck cards v. its ability to win "now" with out timewalk.

?

I'm not sure where you get this from.  I have yet to see a good GushFlash list.  I tested Gush pretty thoroughly, and simply saw no way in which it was better than the cards that it replaced.  Furthermore, I'd like to point that Flash has 11 pitch counters to GAT's 7: where GAT makes up the difference is in Duress. 

Flash and GAT are radically different decks, in every way.  GAT is an aggro-control deck with a dozen synergistic combos built in, and Flash is a traditional two-card combo deck with a bunch of proactive disruption.  The comparison is not apt.

[nataz]

I don't particularly want to get into specific flash lists considering the title of this thread, but 11 pitch counters...seriously?! I've never seen any list (that has at least placed in a published event) with 11 pitch counters, that seems off.

That said,
perhaps I didn't make my point clear enough; I'll go at it agian.

Both decks can run similar draw engines: Scroll -> recall, Cantrip/wraith, Gush
Both decks run a similar number of Tutors: Mystical, Demonic, Vamp, and sometimes Imp Seal
Both decks run a similar number of pitch counters: 7-8
Both decks have kill conditions that cost 2 mana
Both decks generaly use their counters as reactive control to protect a threat
Both decks have "weak" mana bases, allowable only by a low avg. cc and quick threats


That being said, GaT has the advantage in the match mostly because of the addition of Duress into the disruption package, and the ability to win/recover in an incramental fashion. Fights over summoners pact with equal numbers of pitch counters tend to be a nail in the coffin. 

GaT manages to negate a number of Flash's strenghts simply by mirroring them, but they come at the cost of not being able to win on a single turn without finding a time walk (and somtimes a zerk). I'm not convinced that Hales match up example was very good, but his conclusions are sound.   

[mistervader]

I guess Pact of Negation counts as a pitch spell, too.

4 Force
4 Pact
3 MisDirection

That's 11 ways to counterwar, not to mention versions that also run Daze.

That being said, GAT seems capable of dealing with it by applying pressure while engaging in the Counterwar, and Duress really gives the edge to GAT at times. Still, all it takes is a permission-light hand, and Flash would capitalize on it.

[Implacable]

I don't particularly want to get into specific flash lists considering the title of this thread, but 11 pitch counters...seriously?! I've never seen any list (that has at least placed in a published event) with 11 pitch counters, that seems off.

That said,
perhaps I didn't make my point clear enough; I'll go at it agian.

Both decks can run similar draw engines: Scroll -> recall, Cantrip/wraith, Gush
Both decks run a similar number of Tutors: Mystical, Demonic, Vamp, and sometimes Imp Seal
Both decks run a similar number of pitch counters: 7-8
Both decks have kill conditions that cost 2 mana
Both decks generaly use their counters as reactive control to protect a threat
Both decks have "weak" mana bases, allowable only by a low avg. cc and quick threats


That being said, GaT has the advantage in the match mostly because of the addition of Duress into the disruption package, and the ability to win/recover in an incramental fashion. Fights over summoners pact with equal numbers of pitch counters tend to be a nail in the coffin. 

GaT manages to negate a number of Flash's strenghts simply by mirroring them, but they come at the cost of not being able to win on a single turn without finding a time walk (and somtimes a zerk). I'm not convinced that Hales match up example was very good, but his conclusions are sound.   

You are comparing the decks by virtue of similarities in their decklists.  In a format where the two top pre-June 20 control decks are only different in 1/3 of their decklist, this is not an argument that I buy.  Where decks diverge is in their respective gameplans.  Flash has one gameplan; it aggressively tutors to get Flash and Hulk in the first three turns, then protects the combo with pitch-counters.  In 20 of the 50 games that I just goldfished, I went off by Turn 3 with more than one counterspell in reserve.  Those kills came predominantly on Turn 2.  That's what the deck does.  GAT, on the other hand, has a series of chains that it normally plays out; it can lay a Dryad and then throw a barrage of disruption, it can lay a Dryad and go off, or it can play as the control deck.  Quite simply, these two decks should not be compared. 

If you want to continue this discussion, we may wish to do so through Private Message.  This may be wandering from the thread's purpose.

[alvin6688]

Its pretty irrelevant to debate whether GAT and Flash are similar. The real question is whether GAT can beat Flash.

Compare the disruption:

GAT
4 Duress
4 Force of Will
3 Misdirection

FLASH
4 Force of Will
4 Pact of Negation
3 Misdirection

GAT runs a tiny bit more draw. However, here's what I'm worried about. If Flash decks evolve and start maindecking Xantid Swarm, their Summoning Pacts will act like counters as well, making them incredibly tough to beat.

EDIT: Swarm has summoning sickness though, so it may not happen. But if some green creature of that sort is found, there could be trouble.
EDIT 2: diopter, you read my mind !

[diopter]

Its pretty irrelevant to debate whether GAT and Flash are similar. The real question is whether GAT can beat Flash.

Compare the disruption:

GAT
4 Duress
4 Force of Will
3 Misdirection

FLASH
4 Force of Will
4 Pact of Negation
3 Misdirection

GAT runs a tiny bit more draw. However, here's what I'm worried about. Once Flash decks evolve and start maindecking 1-2 Xantid Swarm, their Summoning Pacts will act like counters as well, making them incredibly tough to beat.

Xantids have summoning sickness - thus fetching one with Pact will not work (you will lose on your next upkeep).

[Jo84]

Yesterday I tested against a friends Grow-A-Tog with Hulk Flash.

I only lost one match, cause he aggressively used Duress against me, all other games ended on turn 3 the latest after some counter wars.

So I think you need Leylines in the sideboard to increase your chances post-board. Game 1 seems to be almost in favor of Hulk Flash.

[Scott_Limoges]

The common thread that each deck has is a horrible match against dredge.  Steve is right about leyline - its the best card in the format.

[Elric]

Gat runs 2 less than the maximum number of artifact mana - the two missing are Mox Pearl and Sol Ring. Actually, some people advocate running Pearl as well. Either way, GAT makes up for it with lots of cantrips, so it'll run into a Mox before Tinker 98% of the time.

If you run Tinker + 7 artifacts (what Steve's most recent list has), then your chance to get an artifact in your opening hand, conditional on having Tinker in your hand, is 54.8%.  If you assume the deck is 57 cards (to account for the 3 Street Wraiths in Steve's build), then the chance is 56.9%.

Edit- to give two stats for comparison, a deck like Slaver pre Future Sight (10 mana artifacts, 0 Street Wraiths) has a 69.0% chance to have a mana artifact in its opening hand, conditional on having Tinker in hand.  A GAT deck with 3 Street Wraiths and 5 mana artifacts would have a 44.5% chance to have a mana artifact in its opening hand, conditional on having Tinker in hand.

[Purple Hat]

what really concerns me about gat right now is that I'm not sure it has a favorable or even 50/50 bomberman matchup.  if it can't beat bomberman then it's pretty clearly not worth playing imo.

[Vegeta2711]

what really concerns me about gat right now is that I'm not sure it has a favorable or even 50/50 bomberman matchup.  if it can't beat bomberman then it's pretty clearly not worth playing imo.

You might as well not play any deck in the format except B-man then under that criteria. If you play something that doesn't lose to Bomberman, I'm guessing you just pack it up to either Gush, Flash or Ichorid or more likely two of them.

[Purple Hat]

what really concerns me about gat right now is that I'm not sure it has a favorable or even 50/50 bomberman matchup.  if it can't beat bomberman then it's pretty clearly not worth playing imo.

You might as well not play any deck in the format except B-man then under that criteria. If you play something that doesn't lose to Bomberman, I'm guessing you just pack it up to either Gush, Flash or Ichorid or more likely two of them.

it's not that I wouldn't play a deck with a bad bomberman matchup so much as I see the format right now as bomberman, ichorid, flash and everything else game 1.  in games 2 and 3 it gets more interesting because flash and ichorid are both pretty beatable with common sideboard cards, but my problem is that if you can't beat bomberman game 1 and you might beat flash game 1 and there's no way in hell you're beating ichorid game 1 then you're probably not good enough.  conceeding game 1 of every matchup is not a good way to win a tournament.  I dont' think the flash matchup is aweful but I don't think it's better than 50/50 or so game 1.  game 2 there's a lot of options but I really don't want to count on that.  as odd as it is to say it, especially since I've been saying this for like a year and not really believing it, I'm starting to think wizards was right and gat is just slower than the metagame.

[Scyther]

So... uif Duress is THE weapon against Flash and most of the other Upper Tier decs, then why don't try the (Mana drain)/ Mind Twist way. The whole bunch of artifact mana + a few Mana Drains and the raw power of Mind Twist can Randomly win games. But if a Flash player is forced to discard Tutors/Combo or Protection your own win is not far away. Even if it is only 2-3 cards.

For the R-Splash. Do all think it is the way to go? Of course: Artifact Mutation is TEH St4xx hoser, but with only 2 permanent red Mana sources its not easy to cast it constantly.
Don't you think Flux, Oxidize, H. Recall is more than enough? I do ^^

[o uncola o]

So... uif Duress is THE weapon against Flash and most of the other Upper Tier decs, then why don't try the (Mana drain)/ Mind Twist way. The whole bunch of artifact mana + a few Mana Drains and the raw power of Mind Twist can Randomly win games. But if a Flash player is forced to discard Tutors/Combo or Protection your own win is not far away. Even if it is only 2-3 cards.

2-3 random cards = 3-4 mana.  It countered, you spent 2+B-3+B to draw the counter rather than just B to duress it.  Duress can go off first turn without acceleration, and does not rely on you first establishing UU to counter some spell prior to it's effective use.

[Scyther]

No one said that Twist should replace Duress ...
In addition ... of course, because the Disruption effect (of Duress) is huge in here.

[Jo84]

well, Drain/Twist is just too slow as Flash wouldn´t let your drain resolve, and if it gets resolved you´ve almost won even without Mind Twist. If you wanna go this way you may be better with Mana Leak, but I don´t think that´s the right way to go.
I think Stifles might be a better way, as they also stop storm, fetch lands and so on, so they are more versatile.

[Xman]

as odd as it is to say it, especially since I've been saying this for like a year and not really believing it, I'm starting to think wizards was right and gat is just slower than the metagame.

I don't know if GAT is too slow, but it fdefinatly needs a face lift to help it out in the speed of the current meta.  Time will tell.  But I think we need more information.  I do think GAT will have an impact on the meta.  After all, it was one of the most feared eecks & before gush was unrestricted, it did show up near the top if piloted by a good player in some of the larger tournaments.

[alvin6688]

Any opinion on maindeck Yixlid Jailer? I think it makes more sense than maindeck Leyline because you don't need 4 slots, and because GAT can utilize the advantage of running lots of cantrips and finding Yixlid. Yixlid beats just as well as Dark Confidant does, and has a better special ability than Bob is this metagame. Also, maindecking Yixlid forces us to make the deck tigher by cutting the 3 worst cards previously - I made room by cutting a Street Wraith, the Regrowth, and a Polluted Delta (I was happier with 20 mana sources than 21 even before I included Yixlid, and used the extra slot for a 3rd Misdirection) from Steve's build. And in bringing perhaps the most universal and flexible sideboard card into the maindeck, we have 3 more slots in the sideboard to work with.

MAINDECK:
4 Quirion Dryad
3 Yixlid Jailer
1 Psychatog

4 Duress
4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection

4 Brainstorm
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Gush
2 Street Wraith
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Cunning Wish
1 Time Walk
1 Fastbond
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor

2 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island

1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mana Crypt

SIDEBOARD:
3 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Pithing Needle
2 Artifact Mutation
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Berserk
1 Strip Mine
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Naturalize
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Echoing Truth

Dropping back down to 2 Misdirection has allowed me to drop the Sleights for Street Wraiths since there isn't such a heavy need for blue cards early on. I'm also thinking of cutting the Island for a second Volcanic because the single basic land has never made a difference in my testing against Wasteland. Running two Volcs pretty much solves the little Regrowth issue mentioned above. EDIT: Yeah I went and dropped the Island for Volc.

Anyway, these are small changes here and there that may make a difference once in a while. But these tweaks all pale in comparison to the massive percentage shifts provided by Yixlid against Flash and Dredge. If I were to bring this list, Yixlid Jailers included, to a tournament today, I'd feel good about my chances of winning the match against every single Vintage deck.

[Xman]

How do the Jailers main change the natural flow of the deck?  Is it still like lightning?  I understand it will help make us have a better vs. Ichorid, but in the majority of cases is it better main than more draw or control?