Giftsless Gifts

[netherspirit]

Since we now have access to only one copy of Gifts Ungiven, Gifts decks will obviously have to change. I have only just built this deck, I've tested it a little and it is VERY reliable and can consistently win with protection on turn 3 or 4.

I used to play Gifts quite a lot, although I am not an expert on the deck, but I always found it too slow; now that we don't have Gifts to abuse in the same way I've replaced it with Intuition and have found it a lot stronger.

Here's the deck I've got so far, I did have green in there for Fastbond at one point but it just didn't work.

Mana Base:
7 SoLoMoxen
1 Lotus Petal
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Mountain
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills

Kill Conditions:
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens

Draw/Tutor:
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
3 Intuition
3 Merchant Scroll
3 Impulse
1 Frantic Search
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
2 Gush

Protection:
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
1 Pact of Negation

Others:
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Time Walk
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Recoup
1 Dark Ritual

Sideboard:
3 Pithing Needle
3 Spell Snare
1 Echoing Truth
2 Darkblast
2 Massacre
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Misdirection

Well that's the deck!

Intuition plays very similarly to Gifts but obviously you have less control over which card you get; so why is it better than Gifts? The answer is that one less mana, that little makes a lot of difference. This is why I haven't even included a lone copy of Gifts.

Usually when playing the deck, you spend the first turn or two playing the control role and hoping to make some card advantage or pull an Intuition. Turn three or four should see you play Intuition for Black Lotus, Recoup and Yawgmoth's Will or something similar; if you can spare one of the slots, Pact of Negation is brilliant to include in your Intuition pile as it can make sure your key spells resolve.

I decided to include both Empty the Warrens and Tendrils of Agony for three reasons:
1) I can go mini if I have to and use both of them in combination.
2) Empty the Warrens gives me a chance to stop opposing creatures.
3) Tendrils is often better if I can just win on the spot.

My sideboard is built to stop that cards which hurt me the most; things like Xantid Swarm, Empty the Warrens, Tendrils of Agony, Oath, Fish creatures, Null Rod, Tormod's Crypt etc. But it also has a lone Tormod's Crypt as it is just so useful against combo decks.

Well I don't really know what to write so I'm going to leave it at that for now! If there's anything you'd like to know please ask and I'll be happy to reply.

Comments, criticism and suggestions would be very much appreciated, but please let's keep it constructive!

netherspirit

EDIT: For the latest list, please see reply 32.

[PARKA]

Why you play a mountain??? Isn't a island for gush and don't add blue mana... I don't understand...

[CranialX]

Can you  still call this deck gifts, where there is no gifts in the deck...

[Dan_in_a_Can]

Can you  still call this deck gifts, where there is no gifts in the deck...

Well, the build is essentially gifts pre june 1st, except that it now runs intuition and gush...

So wait.. doesn't that make this intuition/gush-tendrils

[netherspirit]

Why you play a mountain??? Isn't a island for gush and don't add blue mana... I don't understand...

I play a Mountain solely because of the deck's dependeny on Recoup. The majority of the time you have to use it in order to win, so I need to ensure I'll have one red mana available; unfortunately, Volcanic Islands can be hit by Wasteland, so they aren't enough to guarantee the mana.

As for calling it Gifts even though there's no Gifts... No you can't really, but as this is an evolution of Gifts that's what I'm at least calling the thread for now.

[Midknight]

Something that might really help with your build, is adding Accumulated Knowledge. It was crap in Gifts, because you must search for four different cards. Intuition lets you search out any three. Making it so, they can all be the same. This usually allows your, Yawgmoths Wills to be more broken. Draw X more cards. Also makes Merchant Scroll more boken. So much easier to find that fourth AK.

I also think since theres been so much graveyard hate. I think its time again, to include Tinker Colossus.

If your running the gifts engine, with the recoup. Don't you think you shoud, auto include 1 Gifts Ungiven. Maybe as a Merchant Scroll target.

[netherspirit]

Something that might really help with your build, is adding Accumulated Knowledge. It was crap in Gifts, because you must search for four different cards. Intuition lets you search out any three. Making it so, they can all be the same. This usually allows your, Yawgmoths Wills to be more broken. Draw X more cards. Also makes Merchant Scroll more boken. So much easier to find that fourth AK.

I also think since theres been so much graveyard hate. I think its time again, to include Tinker Colossus.

If your running the gifts engine, with the recoup. Don't you think you shoud, auto include 1 Gifts Ungiven. Maybe as a Merchant Scroll target.

I tried Tinker --> DSC and it was just too slow. I might consider adding it to the sideboard though.

As for adding Gifts Ungiven, no I don't think it's worth adding; the deck does exactly as it's meant to using Intuition instead.

[Zarathustra]

As for adding Gifts Ungiven, no I don't think it's worth adding; the deck does exactly as it's meant to using Intuition instead.

If you add AKs to the deck and are drawing a ton of cards, Gifts Ungiven even as a 1-of is downright broken.  Honestly, if you've drawn enough mana and have some counter back-up, Gifts would be game over.

-DShell

[Implacable]

Something that might really help with your build, is adding Accumulated Knowledge. It was crap in Gifts, because you must search for four different cards. Intuition lets you search out any three. Making it so, they can all be the same. This usually allows your, Yawgmoths Wills to be more broken. Draw X more cards. Also makes Merchant Scroll more boken. So much easier to find that fourth AK.

I also think since theres been so much graveyard hate. I think its time again, to include Tinker Colossus.

If your running the gifts engine, with the recoup. Don't you think you shoud, auto include 1 Gifts Ungiven. Maybe as a Merchant Scroll target.

I tried Tinker --> DSC and it was just too slow. I might consider adding it to the sideboard though.

As for adding Gifts Ungiven, no I don't think it's worth adding; the deck does exactly as it's meant to using Intuition instead.

Haven't we already had this discussion about a hundred thousand times?  Gifts is better than Intuition; therefore, Gifts should be run over Intuition.  After all, Intuition piles are just Gifts piles -1.

[netherspirit]

As for adding Gifts Ungiven, no I don't think it's worth adding; the deck does exactly as it's meant to using Intuition instead.

If you add AKs to the deck and are drawing a ton of cards, Gifts Ungiven even as a 1-of is downright broken.  Honestly, if you've drawn enough mana and have some counter back-up, Gifts would be game over.

-DShell

If I add AK then Gifts will definitely go in, but I'm not adding AK at the moment; I want to consider other options first.

Something that might really help with your build, is adding Accumulated Knowledge. It was crap in Gifts, because you must search for four different cards. Intuition lets you search out any three. Making it so, they can all be the same. This usually allows your, Yawgmoths Wills to be more broken. Draw X more cards. Also makes Merchant Scroll more boken. So much easier to find that fourth AK.

I also think since theres been so much graveyard hate. I think its time again, to include Tinker Colossus.

If your running the gifts engine, with the recoup. Don't you think you shoud, auto include 1 Gifts Ungiven. Maybe as a Merchant Scroll target.

I tried Tinker --> DSC and it was just too slow. I might consider adding it to the sideboard though.

As for adding Gifts Ungiven, no I don't think it's worth adding; the deck does exactly as it's meant to using Intuition instead.

Haven't we already had this discussion about a hundred thousand times?  Gifts is better than Intuition; therefore, Gifts should be run over Intuition.  After all, Intuition piles are just Gifts piles -1.

But Intuition costs 1 mana less (therefore can be played earlier!) and my deck only needs to search for three cards; the fourth would be unnecessary.

[Midknight]

Haven't we already had this discussion about a hundred thousand times?  Gifts is better than Intuition; therefore, Gifts should be run over Intuition.  After all, Intuition piles are just Gifts piles -1.
[/quote]


I disagree partly on your statement. If you a AK in the build. Intution is not crap. The fact that it cost one less mana, is also another factor.

Now if your not playing with the AK engine, then yes Gift is far better, even though its a mana slower.

[netherspirit]

Those of you saying to add AK, what is the point? Why waste time, mana and card slots drawing an extra three cards when I could just use Intuition to win anyway?

[Midknight]

Those of you saying to add AK, what is the point? Why waste time, mana and card slots drawing an extra three cards when I could just use Intuition to win anyway?

The extra card drawing, is a huge boost agaisnt control. You want to set up, gaining control of the board.

Its like with Gifts, usually the first Gifts, gets mana, counters, and or tutors. So basicly your doing it with the extra card draw instead of Gifts.

[netherspirit]

I see your point there actually...

What should I cut for AK then?

[Oedipus]

Why not just play Drain Tendrils with more Gushes? Also many a Gush in Almost Blue should make the deck even stronger.

[andrewpate]

To fit AK?  I would try out cutting Impulse and moving the Pact of Negation to the sideboard in place of the Tormod's Crypt, which will almost never be relevant at any time after you can Intuition for it.

That said, I'm not sure what this has to recommend it over previous Intuition Tendrils builds which looked more like TPS and less like Gifts.  Perhaps you could elaborate on this somewhat.

As for green, Fastbond is undoubtedly insane with Gush, although it likes draw 7 spells also.  And as long as you are in the color, Intuition for Regrowth, Recoup, and Yawgmoth's Will sounds pretty good to me.  What was the problem with it?  Just color stability?

[netherspirit]

To fit AK?  I would try out cutting Impulse and moving the Pact of Negation to the sideboard in place of the Tormod's Crypt, which will almost never be relevant at any time after you can Intuition for it.

The only reason I'm reluctant to cut Intuition is that it essentially does the same job as Accumulated Knowledge but faster.

As for green, Fastbond is undoubtedly insane with Gush, although it likes draw 7 spells also.  And as long as you are in the color, Intuition for Regrowth, Recoup, and Yawgmoth's Will sounds pretty good to me.  What was the problem with it?  Just color stability?

Color stability was fine, it was just a matter of adding too little to the deck.

[Midknight]

Yeah, try cutting the 3 Impulses, and the Imperial Seal. I personly would rather see Mystical inplace of the Seal, mainly because, if need be it can be pitch to force. The Pact of Negation, is only good the turn in which your comboing off.

If your having problems with keeping red on board for Recoup. Try not to break all your fetchlands right away, intil you need to. Your deck needs, double blue open for Mana Drain. You could also cut Pact for a Misdirection.

I don't think you understand the fact is, Intution works Great with AK. Theres so many tricks you can do with this card.

For Example  If you have AK in your hand and Intution. Thats will allow you to draw 7 cards.

Second Example.  You have Intution in hand, allow with Merchant Scroll. You Intution for 3 AK, and then Scroll for the 4th. This also allows you to draw 7 cards.

Thrid Example.   With doing the above, this really shines when you cast Yawgmoths Will.

You almost never go straight for the combo pieces right away. You set up for the combo and thats the whole part of the AK engine. Atlease thats how the gifts deck is usually played out.

Any deck that runs Intution, should concider running AK. Unlike Gifts Ungiven where you can only search for one copy at at time is pretty pointless.

[zeus-online]

Think about adding in Tinker/Sundering titan...with gush's unrestriction, GAT will probably become heavily played again....And sundering titan just wreck that decks mana base.

I'm really not sure about intu/AK right now, since everyone is running Graveyard hate to hose ichorid.

I'm thinking that you might wanna try out something similar to cody vinci's Drain Tendrils deck, probably running extra gush's.

/Zeus

[netherspirit]

I don't think you understand the fact is, Intution works Great with AK. Theres so many tricks you can do with this card.

Oh I do understand, don't worry, I've played many decks with the AK Intuition engine; the thing is, this deck isn't one of those decks, but I will try AK in place of the Impulses and one Gush (Gush hasn't actually been that good).

[Neonico]

Here are the 2 lists i ran with only one gifts, even before the card was restricted.
The first is a Drain tendrils shell, with some of the spells i love playing (some choices can seem weird but it fits very well the french meta)
I took it to a 60 players tourney in france, ended in top8 after a 4-0 and a lost in 1/4 final :
Teferi’s Knowledge
1 Tolarian Academy
3 Flooded Strand
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Polluted Delta
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
1 Mana Crypt
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Emerald
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Gush
4 Accumulated Knowledge
1 Burning Wish
1 Fact or Fiction
2 Intuition
1 Recoup
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Lotus Petal
4 Brainstorm
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Black Lotus
1 Frantic Search
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Rebuild
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Mystical Teachings

Sideboard
1 Misdirection
2 Dark Confidant
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Shattering Spree
1 Pyroclasm
1 Massacre
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Duress
1 Deep Analysis
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Rack and Ruin

The deck is really strong in a Heavy Control Metagame (It has been played before FS became legal). To fit the actual metagame, Teferi has been moved to the sideboard, Frantic search removed and Tinker platinum added Maindeck (with colossus sideboard). The main force of playing Intuition/AK, beside the fact that intuition seal the game as well as Gifts and/Or the gifts can be found really fast with the AK draw power.

The main drawback of the Intuition/AK engine is that its really vulnerable to the rampant Graveyard hate played because of Flash/Ichorid. I decided to remove 2nd Intuition, 4 AK to play 3 confidants and scrying maindeck, and Tinker/platinum (With Colossus Sideboard) to have a way to win Game 1 vs Ichorid

It leaded me to this list which took first in a 35 people tourney this weekend :
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

3 Flooded strand
2 Polluted delta
3 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Snow-covered Island
1 Tolarian academy
1 Library of Alexandria

4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Merchant Scroll
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Tinker
1 Mystical tutor
1 Rebuild
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Gush
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Misdirection
1 Mystical Teachings
3 Dark Confidant
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's will
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Burning Wish
1 Recoup
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 lotus petal
1 Platinum Angel

Sideboard :
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
1 Pyroclasm
1 Shattering Spree
1 Deep Analysis
1 Massacre
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Misdirection
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
4 Yixlid Jailer
1 Darsteel Colossus

My games were all Against really good players :
Round 1 : 2-0 vs Slaver
Round 2 : 2-0 vs Gifts
Round 3 : 2-1 vs MonoB Aggro control
Round 4 : 2-1 vs Ichorid
Round 5-6 : ID
¼ Final : 2-0 versus Allmost Blue (Ub Drain Desire control/Combo)
½ Final : 2-1 vs Control Madness (what a fucking hard matchup for gifts, versus Stifle, shamaan, ReB etc... maindeck)
Split the final.

The only matchup im not sure (or at least, im sure im unfavorable) is flash, but i think it can be solved by leyline + Protection vs Jailer. The Ichorid matchup is really strong, allmost unloosable game 2-3, and allmost even game 1
The 2 decks keep a really strong matchup against other control decks, both slaver and standart gifts lists. The loose of 1 gifts from my previous list (instead of scrying) didnt affect the deck efficiency.

[kombat]

Haven't we already had this discussion about a hundred thousand times?  Gifts is better than Intuition; therefore, Gifts should be run over Intuition.  After all, Intuition piles are just Gifts piles -1.

Isn't that oversimplifying it a bit?  Couldn't you easily say that Gifts is better than Intuition in the same way Opportunity is better than Ancestral Recall?  You can't ignore the difference in CMC.  It may be small, but in Vintage, it matters.

[Implacable]

Haven't we already had this discussion about a hundred thousand times?  Gifts is better than Intuition; therefore, Gifts should be run over Intuition.  After all, Intuition piles are just Gifts piles -1.

Isn't that oversimplifying it a bit?  Couldn't you easily say that Gifts is better than Intuition in the same way Opportunity is better than Ancestral Recall?  You can't ignore the difference in CMC.  It may be small, but in Vintage, it matters.

Allow me to phrase it this way: on these forums, it has been said many times that, in a deck that will attempt to put together the Recoup + Will combo, the 1 extra mana does not outweigh the benefit of getting one more card.  In other words, A Gifts for Recoup + Will + Lotus + X is better than an Intuition for Recoup + Will + Lotus, even if it takes you an extra turn to get to.  A Gifts for the win is always better than an Intuition for the win.

[netherspirit]

I've just added Giftd to the deck and it's ok, but I still prefer Intuition. I tried AK and it really badly sucked, so I'm not going to use it.

I'll post the new list soon! Thanks for the helps so far.

netherspirit

[Midknight]

I've just added Giftd to the deck and it's ok, but I still prefer Intuition. I tried AK and it really badly sucked, so I'm not going to use it.

I'll post the new list soon! Thanks for the helps so far.

netherspirit

It really comes down to the meta and your play style. Im not saying your version is bad "I never tested it". I just mention what I though was better. Take everything, as a grain of salt. You tested it, and didnt like it, so thats kool. Atlease you gave it a try.

[netherspirit]

I am actually surprised that AK didn't work out in the deck; the end problem was that it was just too little too late I guess.

Any other suggestions for possible inclusions? I'm tempted to add Mystical Tutor instead of Imperial Seal, although I do often find myself tutoring for Black Lotus with it.

[ZeusDX]

Those of you saying to add AK, what is the point? Why waste time, mana and card slots drawing an extra three cards when I could just use Intuition to win anyway?

I really haven't tried this built yet, but I like playing a Drain Tendrils and it has the 4 AK in it and the Intuitions, and let me tell you that sometimes is better to draw some cards to keep the control.

ZEUSDX
_{"Sometimes is better to stay quite and listen to the silence"}

[netherspirit]

But when I want to go control (which does happen), I can just use Impulse to get a permission card or another draw card; it's nearly always worked for me so far.

[Foilman]

Any news for these lists?
I tested the bobgifs list of Neonico and it is pretty good (not perfect...need something against stax).
I really like the tinker-platinangel tech..every time i done it, i won.
Any news of the netherspirit list?
Thanks!

[netherspirit]

I'm just ironing out tweaks at the moment but I shall be posting the current list soon.