GT - Gush Tendrils

[nicofromtokyo]

I wonder why nobody gives a try to Draw7's. With Fastbond, it must auto-included, 7 cards are better than 2, and with Fow and Misdirection, there should be no problem to cast a Wheel or a Jar ftw.

[Purple Hat]

I wonder why nobody gives a try to Draw7's. With Fastbond, it must auto-included, 7 cards are better than 2, and with Fow and Misdirection, there should be no problem to cast a Wheel or a Jar ftw.

draw 7's are symetrical, your opponent is just as likely to draw into counters as you are into protection in many cases and if you clear his hand to resolve the draw 7 you then have to clear it again to resolve spells to win.  also if you draw 7 and whiff you may have just given your opponent the nuts.

[Whatever Works]

@ nicofromtokyo - Purple Hat hit the correct. The problem with draw 7's is that they are clunky, symetrical, and can whiff.

Off of a draw 7 with this deck in particular its never an auto win. The only way I could see it being that way is if you have fastbond in play, and if it is in play the game is probably over anyway. The deck only runs 1 ritual, and even with mana floating a draw 7 is not nearly as broken in this deck as it would be in a long.dec.

Thats not particularly a bad thing, because the deck doesnt play like that. The reason this deck doesnt run timetwister is the same reason gifts.dec didnt run timetwister. Draw 7's in tutor based combo decks w/o rituals just dont work. Its not that I am not giving draw 7's a chance. I tested them, and they were just win more, clunky, or just not very strong. My recent testing only makes me feel more confident saying that the list posted is as close to optimal as I have been able to come up with as of yet (though I do want to try to test a few cards, and see if I can find slots for those cards).

My testing with this deck continues to be extremely strong and similar to my tourney results. If anybody has tried my list I would be happy to hear testing results good or bad.

Kyle

[oneofchaos]

What do you find yourself commonly casting Gifts to get?  And in what situations would you get what?  How does gifts play a role in the deck, and is it better than a draw 7? 

[Whatever Works]

@ oneofchaos - Gifts Ungiven is 100x better then any draw 7. The card plays the role of "Finisher" in GT.

The piles are NEVER super obvious like they were in gifts ungiven. However, that doesnt mean they are any less powerful. All of the card selections are 100% dependent on whats in play and what is in hand.

Lets say that you have absolutely nothing of relevence in hand or in play (cards like - fastbond, yawgmoth's will, black lotus etc.), and lets say 4 mana (w/2 land), and its at EoT of opponent...

If I had nothing great in my graveyard I would get:
Demonic Tutor
Vampiric Tutor
Gush
Ancestral Recall

In this situation they are either allowing me to get fastbond with a draw spell that should put me permanently ahead. Or allowing me to draw 5 cards with 4 mana floating (tap lands bounce 2 - replay 1 and get 1 more mana) if they give me Gush/Ancestral pile.

If I have a graveyard that I would deem strong (more then 1 gush, an ancestral, mox or 2, some combination of those... If you have a good graveyard... You know you have a good graveyard)... Then you get a pile like this:

Fastbond
Vampiric Tutor
Mystical Tutor
*Ancestral, Gush, Imperial Seal (all depends on hand)

In this situation they wont give you fastbond with a tutor that can get gush. So your likely getting 2 tutors. You tutor on upkeep for Yawg will, and then will replays fastbond, and then you go crazy by replaying Gush's and the gushes are more efficicent b/c you use the vamp you got to get black lotus, or tendrils, etc. to gush into to get the kill.

There are other fancy piles you can get if you want to set up mind's desire, or if you have Yawg will in hand. All of those are very similar to the gifts piles basically.

Kyle

[oneofchaos]

Thanks for clarifying my inquiry, I just was trying to test GT out and found myself blanking out when I drew gifts.  I tended to just randomly cast it for brokenness since I didn't know how to play it optimally.  Thanks again.

[Whatever Works]

Thanks for clarifying my inquiry, I just was trying to test GT out and found myself blanking out when I drew gifts.  I tended to just randomly cast it for brokenness since I didn't know how to play it optimally.  Thanks again.

No problem. Glad I could clerify gifts ungiven a little bit. The key to remember is that it is 100% dependent on the situation, and when you cast it the following questions should be considered:
1.) What am I trying to achieve with this gifts ungiven? This is often underlooked. Sometimes you go for the kill, sometimes for card advantage, or sometimes you can gift defensively with a pile like (FoW, Misdirection, Merchant Scroll, Duress) if you are playing vs. combo or trying to protect your own combo.
2.) What is the best and worst case scenario with my gifts? In other words, Can I win this turn? Is there a pile I can trick my opponent with? Should I go for bombs or tutors for bombs?

Another thing about the deck that is often misplayed is when to put your foot on the gas or on the break with the deck. Sometimes I noticed I was trying to combo... Then I stopped myself... Looked at the game state... and realized... "Wow, I have a FoW in hand... And if I hold off till next turn I can win 100% instead of trying to force through several gush's w/o any mana b/c of some scroll played earlier in the turn. Just something to ask yourself when playing/testing the deck. Realizing and adjusting to this error greatly improved my results almost instantly, but I hae been known to be an extremely aggressive player and it shows up in my playstyle.

Kyle

[Stamford]

Another thing about the deck that is often misplayed is when to put your foot on the gas or on the break with the deck. Sometimes I noticed I was trying to combo... Then I stopped myself... Looked at the game state... and realized... "Wow, I have a FoW in hand... And if I hold off till next turn I can win 100% instead of trying to force through several gush's w/o any mana b/c of some scroll played earlier in the turn. Just something to ask yourself when playing/testing the deck. Realizing and adjusting to this error greatly improved my results almost instantly, but I hae been known to be an extremely aggressive player and it shows up in my playstyle.

Kyle

I agree with this statement. I have came across the same problems when I tried to master this deck.
The trick is to stop treating it as a Grim Long or Pitch Long deck, but rather as a "better" Meandeck Gifts deck.

I play very aggressively too and I think its because of my mastery of Grim Long.

[slyfer]

The fact that this deck can flizzle while comboing it's a weakness, and you cannot do anything because you just draw cards via gush...
Tutoring is superior to pure drawing ... cards like grim tutor or gifts ungivens proved that for the last 2 years of Vintage.

No other storm deck actually played has the possibility to flizze while comboing. And it's very important to combo out at 1000% during 1 turn because you just have a little window open to victory many times.

I consider Grow-atog the best archetipe to abuse the 4x gush, but even in that case, the deck is hatable, and it has also problems.
Maybe that's why Wizard unlocked gush: the reason is that even with 4x gush, we are not able to create a "monster deck" that is superior to all the rest.
Because we live in a "ichorid, flash" metagame, stax, fast storm deck, etc...

The bad move was, imho, to lock gifts ungiven. I think we could have live very well in a 4x gift 4x gush "Magic enviroiment" 
I hope they will discover this, and unlock the gifts ungiven restriction as soon as possible 

They create a couple of tier 1.5 decks
They destroyed a tier 1 deck

<greetings from Italy>

[ErkBek]

I don't want this thread to go off topic, but...

They create a couple of tier 1.5 decks
They destroyed a tier 1 deck

Isn't that the whole point of restrictions though?

[volkboys]

I'm actually trying a gush deck too but I went into the intuition/dark ritual way.

I was just wondering why do you run this deck over grim long?
Basicly, you try to do the same thing with more disrupt (maybe too much in my point of view) and you slow you down by 2-3 turn if we compare with grim long.

What's your good and bad match-up?

I often find myself with a kick-ass hand and even if I draw a bilion cards, I just can't find a tutor or the lone tendril. Have you considered running more tendrils or empty the warrens (the red splash affect a lot the mana base but give red elemental blast in side and maybe recoup main deck)?

Why don't you play Xantid Swarm in your side board?

Your deck is interesting, a lot of good ideas, I'll try some of them in future testings.

[Whatever Works]

@ Stamford - Thats how I look at the deck too. Very similar to Meandeck Gifts, but with more draw spells and less grave reliance.

@ Slyfer - I think I just have to disagree with many of your statements. I will break them down 1 by 1.

1.) You state Tutoring is superior to draw, and thats a deck flaw? My deck runs 8 tutors. And the draw engine only finds more threats, and generally acts as a way to produce mana and stay ahead. I look at it as the best of both worlds. Also tutoring is never card advantageous and call falter vs. a deck that wins the "big" counter war.

2.) No other storm deck has the potential of fizzling? Are you kidding me? Pitch Long and Grim Long can fizzle w/o a doubt. Sure they dont fizzle a lot, but they do fizzle. My deck can fizzle of course, but GT does not fizzle at a high percentage. And, if played well it fizzles at about the same percentage as the two decks that you state. Also I tend to disagree about this extremely "narrow window" for openings. Type 1 is a fast format, but a turn 3-4 kill is generally a descent kill speed provided that you run enough disruption to prevent your opponent from goldfishing, and GT definetly does.

3.) GAT the best gush deck? Thats an opinion. By results alone and my testing GT clearly is the superior deck, but I am not here to debate what deck is the best, because it has way to many factors and the decks dont share many things in common besides gush.

@ Kobefan - Exactly! At least somebody is catching on lol.

@ volkboys - I havent tested gush in an intuition style based deck yet. I always find those decks to be a little bit more reliant on graveyard then I like.

The big question I been expecting! Why play this over pitch/grim long! Good question! Here are my reasons:
1.) Consistency - Having played A LOT of pitch/grim long to success I can say with confidence that GT is a more consistent deck. The problem with pitchlong is that it Mulligans A LOT! It does randomely get god hands, but it also gets a lot of awful hands that have to be thrown back.
2.) Graveyard! GT isnt as reliant on it as grim/pitch long. All the decks can win without them, but GT can do it much better.
3.) Speed = Whats the value? The kill turn of a deck is the most overrated thing in all of magic! I could play Storm 10 combo and win 60% on turn 1 easily, but that doesnt mean that I would be winning more games then if I played fish that wins turn 20ish. What GT lacks for in speed is made up for in consistency, and disruption. The ammount of disruption is diseaving as well, because the deck draws so many cards so it feels like it always has a FoW/Misdirection/Duress at all times. I rarely passed the turn thinking "oh boy! I am in big trouble now" because I dont have a counter or was going to be drawing dead.

I havent considered running more tendrils as of yet, and I dont want to splash red into the mana base. I find that stretching the mana base could be detrimental, and I believe warrens is a more answerable card then tendrils vs. everything but stax (which also prepares for it). Its a great card, but I am not sure I would want to sacrafice a strong mana base for the trade. Game 1 is also about efficiency, and adding a 2nd kill condition hurts that. Though throwing a 2nd tendrils in the board wouldnt be a bad option at all.

I cant give great matchup figures yet. Most everything has been favorable with the acception of stax game 1, but its a matchup I feel is extremely winnable especially with a good sideboard.

Xantid Swarm just feels awful in the deck. why try to resolve a 1 green casting cost creature to say I can do what I want... when i can resolve a 1 green enchantment that says I win the game? Also the disruption for the deck is already great, and protecting things like merchant scroll that are all synergy plays seems to have little benefit at the cost of a maindeck slot.

Thanks for the complements, and ideas.

Kyle

[someone_unimportan]

I think the most important reason why you would want to play GT over Long-style is, as its creator mentioned, the lack of graveyard reliance. It is very, very, VERY important in a meta full of Ichorid, Flash, and graveyard paranoia in general. I know at the last Vintage tournament I went to (the first day FS was legal) a huge percentage (60-80) was running 4 SB leylines.

[pyr0ma5ta]

Xantid Swarm just feels awful in the deck. why try to resolve a 1 green casting cost creature to say I can do what I want... when i can resolve a 1 green enchantment that says I win the game? Also the disruption for the deck is already great, and protecting things like merchant scroll that are all synergy plays seems to have little benefit at the cost of a maindeck slot.

Uh, yeah, nobody's saying you should cut Fastbond, which is clearly the strongest card in the deck (even better than Will).  The thing is though, when you go to game 2, you might want it over Duress/Misd, especially because you don't really plan to win on turn 1, although it does happen.

[Whatever Works]

Xantid Swarm just feels awful in the deck. why try to resolve a 1 green casting cost creature to say I can do what I want... when i can resolve a 1 green enchantment that says I win the game? Also the disruption for the deck is already great, and protecting things like merchant scroll that are all synergy plays seems to have little benefit at the cost of a maindeck slot.

Uh, yeah, nobody's saying you should cut Fastbond, which is clearly the strongest card in the deck (even better than Will).  The thing is though, when you go to game 2, you might want it over Duress/Misd, especially because you don't really plan to win on turn 1, although it does happen.

My example was a poor 1 I will admit that. I still believe that duress/Misd are better postboard b/c duress provides information, and a better combo matchup. While Misdirection is another blue card for FoW, very good vs. Ancestral and vs. cards like Orim's chant etc. and of course acts as a counter. In fact with this deck I welcome counter wars because I generally win them, and it forces opponents to pitch gas to counters that they generally dont resolve anyway.

Kyle

[volkboys]

I don't believe that we can increase the number of turns it takes to kill and add disrupts because most of the time, those disrupt aren't the good answer.

By exemple, ichorid is much, much faster and resiliant post FS and we got a lot of dead cards. We'll almost never see the fourth turn.
This is the problem I met with my intuition build, at first I was running mana drain because there's a lot of boberman man around here but it was slowing me too much. I shifted to duress, even if it force me to be the beatdown. We just can't sit there and give them 3 turn. If we play the control role, we'll lose.

I don't see why dark rituals aren't good with gush. It's a huge tempo boost before AND post yawgmoth's will. It's the only way I see how we could make the deck enough fast to compete in the ichorid/grim long match-up.

We could easily cut 1 Gifts Ungiven, 1 Misdirection and 1 Street Wraith to have a full set of ritual.

Anyway, gift is really random, 3 misdirection is really too much in the metagame and Street Wraith force sometimes mulligans because play lines becomes too complex and risky, depending of what we draw.

At this point, grim tutor become interesting to do the old tricks like grim -) will -) grim -) tendrils

We could cut 1 Merchant Scroll (we won't draw 2 anyway) and another Street Wraith to add 2 grim tutor.

Why I find misdirection bad here is that the threat's density of this deck is way more low than grim long. He try to play early bomb and need to protect them.
I'm not sure if we should go into a grim long variante with gush or change the disrupt base but something have to change and it needs to kill faster than it does actually.

[Stamford]

I don't believe that we can increase the number of turns it takes to kill and add disrupts because most of the time, those disrupt aren't the good answer.

By exemple, ichorid is much, much faster and resiliant post FS and we got a lot of dead cards. We'll almost never see the fourth turn.
This is the problem I met with my intuition build, at first I was running mana drain because there's a lot of boberman man around here but it was slowing me too much. I shifted to duress, even if it force me to be the beatdown. We just can't sit there and give them 3 turn. If we play the control role, we'll lose.

I don't see why dark rituals aren't good with gush. It's a huge tempo boost before AND post yawgmoth's will. It's the only way I see how we could make the deck enough fast to compete in the ichorid/grim long match-up.

We could easily cut 1 Gifts Ungiven, 1 Misdirection and 1 Street Wraith to have a full set of ritual.

Anyway, gift is really random, 3 misdirection is really too much in the metagame and Street Wraith force sometimes mulligans because play lines becomes too complex and risky, depending of what we draw.

At this point, grim tutor become interesting to do the old tricks like grim -) will -) grim -) tendrils

We could cut 1 Merchant Scroll (we won't draw 2 anyway) and another Street Wraith to add 2 grim tutor.

Why I find misdirection bad here is that the threat's density of this deck is way more low than grim long. He try to play early bomb and need to protect them.
I'm not sure if we should go into a grim long variante with gush or change the disrupt base but something have to change and it needs to kill faster than it does actually.

I think you might be playing it wrong then or your build is suboptimal.

By goldfishing alone, I normally win by turn 3, with disruption backup and along the way, I would also have disrupted by opponent multiple times. This is really the new Control Combo deck which mimics MDG's gameplan but doesn't rely on the GY that much.

Frankly, I took Kyle's decklist, modified it a bit to suit my likings and I have found it to be exceptionally well. It is very interactive. It is not those kind of decks where you can just goldfish. How you win is determined by how your opponent plays out.

I have fizzled with it before, (I call it Gush Long), but when I fizzle, it is often the case in which I have 2-3 lands untapped and a handful of counters and disruption, making sure that my opponent cannot possibly fight through it.

Gifts Ungiven is good. I have often go for this pile, Regrowth, Yawgmoth's Will, Ancestral Recall, Fastbond. It just pretty much ensures I am always ahed in terms of advantage.

[Stamford]

Accidentally clicked the wrong button while trying to edit my above post.
Mods, please delete this post.
I cant report my own post apparently.
(An Error Has Occurred!
You can't report your own post to the moderator, that doesn't make sense!)

[Malhavoc]

Frankly, I took Kyle's decklist, modified it a bit to suit my likings and I have found it to be exceptionally well.

Would you like to share these modifications?

Personally I'm trying to fit tinker and colossus maindeck (that's a metagame dependent choice, due to the high number of fish like decks), but I think that's just needed in the sideboard. In order to optimize Tinker I've thought about some interesting alternative target: of course lotus can be nice sometimes, before a yagwill or just to easily get BB for tendrils, but I was looking for something better. Jar is nice but a bit clunky if drawn (5 mana are a bit for this deck) and not awesome anyway when activated without rituals in the deck (I consider Twister superior if I want a draw7). Another artifact I've thought about is the old Horn of Greed, but discarded this option quite quickly: seems like a win more under fastbond and just too much symmetrical without it. What do you think?

Regarding the side, I've seen some of you think about Xantid as a bad card.. why? Sure, it requires a turn to be active, but seems like a wondeful choice against control decks. On the other hand, with all these very fast combo decks roaming around, I was wondering if a tech card like Mystic Remora can find its 2-3 slots in side. It's awesome against any very fast combo deck in order to draw disruption and business spells, otherwise just giving us tempo to lay out our strategy: with the low cc spells we have, paying the remora and still doing something seems highly possible, while the opponent is almost forced to wait or otherwise give use huge card advantage.

[someone_unimportan]

Some people have been questioning the speed of the deck in the post-FS meta, and I agree with the people who state that the disruption will be more than enough to slow your opponent down long enough to win. The only deck that is excluded from this is Ichorid. I agree that this deck probably cannot beat Ichorid game 1 (barring the first-turn win hands). But the sad truth is that basically nothing beats Ichorid game 1 (Except for 4x Leyline, 4x Planar Void, 4x Crypt.dec). I think this deck is great, and a real contender post unrestriction.

[Whatever Works]

@ Volkboys - With the changes your describing you might as well turn the deck into PitchLong or GrimLong.

A KEY point is this: I am NOT saying that Dark Ritual & Gush are bad together. I am just saying that Dark Ritual is BAD in a deck that does NOT run; Yawgmoth's Bargain, Necropotence, Grim Tutor, Draw 7's, or any other expensive casting cost bombs.

Seriously, think about it like this... You have 4 ritual in the deck... What are you honestly going to be using them to cast? Merchant scroll? That 1 black mana floating will be amazing when you burn after fetching an ancestral recall, gush, or FoW.

Also, cutting a Street Wraith is a NEVER in this deck. Street Wraith is AMAZING! The drawback of it sometimes with brainstorm is 100% mute when the deck can shuffle the deck from 14+ different card effects!

I played merchant scroll as a 3 of on the first day of the tournement, and bumped it up to 4 on the 2nd day and havent regretted the change at all. Its the kind of card that i WANT to see 2 of in my opening hand, and wouldnt be upset if I had a hand with 4 of them as long as I had 2 mana sources as well. Its that good!

Misdirection I personally love as a 3 of. Especially because of merchant scroll. I hate being in a situation where I cant scroll for 1, because I am only running 2. The card is stronger in this metagame then it has been in a long time, and against stax it gets boarded out so its pretty simple.

About Ichorid. I dont know what to say... I was beating it in testing game 1, and absolutely CRUSHING it post sideboard, and I mean not even close. And this was against Richard Shay so its legitiment competition. The deck doesnt care about chalice at 0, or leyline so it turns into a goldfish race. And, my main focus is to put myself in a situation where I can protect my hand from Cabal Therapy w/brainstorm and my vast erray of tutors that safeguard my hand. Creating a high threat density. game 1 they obviously have the edge, but with my "unique" sideboard plan of boarding out Misdirection/Duress, and often FoW I can keep the same speed clock while running leyline and jailer.

@ Stamford - Your 100% right. Goldfishing this deck just doesnt give it justice. On a naming standpoint i refuse to call any deck "Long" right now. That was a term used by "Mike Long" a famous cheater who linked himself to burning wish, and lions eye diamand. This deck runs neither, and unlike decks like "grimlong" doesnt take "long" turns. I preffer to link a deck name to its primary kill condition, and something distinct so I go with GT or Gush Tendrils, because it most accurately describes the deck to the vast majority of people from all formats. So I will stick with GT.

You pointed out one think I have noticed. In situations where the deck "fizzles" it generally doesnt fizzle as much as plays a control role until it can acquire and protect a merchant scroll or other tutor that can then instantly end the game, or severally leverage the advantage to 1 player.

I am assuming your modification was adding regrowth in place of something. I myself want to fit regrowth in, because I retested it and it is stronger then I thought with the inclusions of gifts ungiven (which seems like a random 1 of, but really isnt considering 4 merchant scroll). Im glad your having success with my deck!

@ Malhavoc - I have found basically the same exact results that you have listed. Those being that its almost impossible to fit Tinker/collossus into the maindeck comfortably, Jar is clunky, and that horn of greed can be overly symmetrical and generally win more (because if your casting gush your generally ahead).

I do REALLY like tinker in the sideboard. Perhaps more then I like psychatog. I have an updated sideboard that I will share later in this post!

Mystic Remora is very interesting and I will test it! I feel like I have great game vs. Salvagers and combo mirrors already though, and my main matchup concern would likely be stax.

@ someone_unimportan - First off, your user name is rather depressing! Self confidence! Anyway thank you for your complements on the deck! Ichorid can be beaten game 1, but I will admit that most decks do have a problem with it game 1, and nothing is particularly favorable game 1. I feel the deck is starting to see A LOT less play, because board hate is slowly pushing the deck out of the metagame and people find it sooo boring to play that unless they feel they will win with it (which is getting harder) they see less reason to run it. The key to beating Ichorid is having 2 different forms of hate. That being said running Leyline, and say planer void wouldnt count. Because, they both are answered by the same card. I like Leyline & Jailer because both require different answers. Leyline is stronger vs. Ichorid early game while Jailer is much better vs. ichorid in the late game giving the board a 2 headed approach vs. the deck improving the matchup.

I find deck speed is not important vs. Ichorid as being able to play around leyline and chalice at 0. I dont care how fast the deck is... because on game 3 when your on the draw if ichord starts with leyline in play, chalice at 0, and bazaar your in BIG trouble if your long.dec while GT might have a more favorable chance of recovering though that is a very hard hand to beat for anything.

OK! My updated Sideboard!

4 Leyline of the Void
2 Yexlid Jailer
3 Threads of Disloyalty (4 was a little overkill, but intentional based on metagame)
1 Duress
1 Tinker
1 Darksteel Collosus
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Rebuild

So looking at this here is how I would board vs. some matchups.

STAX
-3 Misdirection
-1 Gifts Ungiven (to costly mana wise)
-1 Duress
+2 Hurkyl's Recall
+1 Rebuild
+1 Tinker
+1 Darksteel Collosus

On the play I would probably leave duress in if not board in 1 more, and cut a merchant scroll etc.

COMBO (any fast form - good matchup in tournement play and testing)
-1 Island
+1 Duress
-maybe bring in tinker/collosus
Weird board choice, but its seriously something I would do. They dont run strip, and I want aggresive hands. I dont board a lot because well I really dont need too... 4 Duress, 4 FoW, 3 Misdirection and merchant scroll for MisD when I know they want to get ancestral is just good.

CONTROL/BOMBERMAN w/e
+1 Tinker
+1 Darksteel Collosus
+1 Duress
+1 Hurkyl's Recall
-1 Mystical Tutor
-1 Merchant Scroll
-1 Street Wraith
-1 land maybe

The only key to the matchup is to "be the beatdown" Bomberman is an extremely beatable deck as long as you force them to react to you. I see people who are very good players lose to the deck, because they are too willing to pass the turn and let bomberman hit 3 mana and EoT drop Aven Mindscensor or cast that trinket mage for tormod's crypt (which doesnt hurt my deck much).

Those sideboarding examples were just that. Examples. It can be completely different based on play/draw, and if I am up or down a game, or if perhaps I feel that I want to run less card disadvantage vs. a player I deamed more skilled. So its on a match to mass basis.

Hope this helps. Glad to here responces!

Kyle

[volkboys]

Why do you board in tinker-colossus versus bomberman? I mean, it's just the worst thing you could do. They'll bounce it most of the time. Those trinket mage may also tutor EE, instead if we use ETW. The problem is that boberman is more and more played and with 4 duress/fow/confident/cutpurse, it sometimes play enough disrupt to stack us and we can't come back due to the cards disaverage. For the moment, the match-up is about 50/50 but I would want to increase it since this deck is played a lot here.

I'm also not sure about all those bounces in the side. 3 seems a lot and we could make place for those xantid swarm.

Why do you board in Hurkyl's Recall against control? They don't play tinker-colossus anymore... is it to combo faster? In this case, the bounce could be better main deck.

Actually, I run 2 Rebuild in my deck cause it allows to play more agressively and to don't care about dropping mox to play tutors even if I don't combo this turns. It's true that I also run intuition but that's just an idea.

[Stamford]

Frankly, I took Kyle's decklist, modified it a bit to suit my likings and I have found it to be exceptionally well.

Would you like to share these modifications?

Personally I'm trying to fit tinker and colossus maindeck (that's a metagame dependent choice, due to the high number of fish like decks), but I think that's just needed in the sideboard. In order to optimize Tinker I've thought about some interesting alternative target: of course lotus can be nice sometimes, before a yagwill or just to easily get BB for tendrils, but I was looking for something better. Jar is nice but a bit clunky if drawn (5 mana are a bit for this deck) and not awesome anyway when activated without rituals in the deck (I consider Twister superior if I want a draw7). Another artifact I've thought about is the old Horn of Greed, but discarded this option quite quickly: seems like a win more under fastbond and just too much symmetrical without it. What do you think?

Regarding the side, I've seen some of you think about Xantid as a bad card.. why? Sure, it requires a turn to be active, but seems like a wondeful choice against control decks. On the other hand, with all these very fast combo decks roaming around, I was wondering if a tech card like Mystic Remora can find its 2-3 slots in side. It's awesome against any very fast combo deck in order to draw disruption and business spells, otherwise just giving us tempo to lay out our strategy: with the low cc spells we have, paying the remora and still doing something seems highly possible, while the opponent is almost forced to wait or otherwise give use huge card advantage.

Sure, why not?
Gush Long
// Lands
    3 Underground Sea
    2 Tropical Island
    1 Tolarian Academy
    1 Library of Alexandria
    1 Flooded Strand
    3 Polluted Delta
    2 Island

// Creatures
    3 Street Wraith

// Spells
    1 Dark Ritual
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Lotus Petal
    4 Merchant Scroll
    1 Yawgmoth's Will
    1 Tendrils of Agony
    1 Mind's Desire
    4 Brainstorm
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Gifts Ungiven
    1 Regrowth
    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Chain of Vapor
    2 Duress
    2 Misdirection
    1 Mystical Tutor
    4 Gush
    1 Imperial Seal
    1 Vampiric Tutor
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Fastbond
    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Time Walk
    1 Timetwister
    4 Force of Will
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Mana Crypt
    1 Sol Ring
    1 Mox Emerald

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 2 Misdirection
SB: 4 Quirion Dryad
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 2 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 Echoing Truth

There is no need for Tinker or Colossus at all.

Most of the time, i can go on such a control role that i can actually hardcast FOW. And when games go long, i always find myself hardcasting Street Wraith to attack. It surprisingly wins.

There is no need for Xantid Swarm. As I said, this is a control combo deck. There is no reason to go cutthroat all-in. All you need to do is maintain card advantage and win with a single beater or just go to the point whereby you can just tendrils your opponent to death with a lot of disruption backup.
The aim is to out-card adavantage you opponent. Most of the time, you will also out-mana advantage your opponent with this deck.

[Whatever Works]

@ Volkboys - I would bring in tinker/collossus vs. anything postboard that I feel might bring in a card like extract. Also it just randomly wins games, and they board out bounce most of the time.

Regardless, I dont really fear bomberman or boberman. As long as your the aggressor the matchup has always been easy for GT in testing.

The bounce in the side is 100% neccessary for stax. I might bring in a hurkyl's against control just as a utility card so that I have 1 more efficient bounce spell availible, and all the scary cards that I want to bounce are generally artifacts. Its also a matter of taking out cards that do nothing vs. cards that have the potential to do something. If your worried about that deck just play 4 threads of disloyalty, and a few copies of massacre and the matchup should be improved.

@ Stamford - So basically your personal changes are adding; Library, regrowth, and timetwister over the 4th Street Wraith, 3rd Duress, and 3rd Misdirection. To try and make the deck a little more "combo" ish.

Personally, I would NEVER cut a street wraith. They are way to good in the deck, and I would never cut a misdirection or a duress for reasons I already stated. I am not a fan of timetwister. I like library, but it has its flaws that make it questionable. And, like you I like regrowth, but I havent found a spot for it yet.

Your sideboard "GAT" strategy makes little to no sense to me. I dont see why turning your deck into GAT will help your postboard. Even with 2 Hurkyl's I really doubt that your postboard Stax Matchup has improved. Or why you would bring misdirection in from the sideboard at all when there are clearly superior postboard cards to misdirection.

Your reasoning for Gush Tendrils makes sense, and the deck is not a "long" deck lol. Reasoning already stated above.

I think people are looking a little to deep into a few sideboarding examples. Those were very basic examples of what you could do, but not what you MUST do. I just giving examples I felt were decent so players have a better clue of what to cut (instead of dropping cards that really should always remain in the deck like vamp a card that gets cut a lot postboard in other decks)

Kyle

[Grand Inquisitor]

find myself hardcasting Street Wraith to attack. It surprisingly wins

I was also surprised by this.  I originally regarded street wraith as a nuisance for mulligans, but it's option to go beat down comes in handy more frequently than I expected.  In fact, some guy was being a piss-ant on MWS last night, going on about how SW is terrible in combo...so I took infi turns slow rolling him with it

One of the concerns I have with lists like this, and lists like Brian Rozzero's (2bl T8 @ myriad as well) is that postboard they become rather vulnerable to Trickbind.  Waiting for duress is not always feasible, and without drains, the deck lacks the stopping power to play a real control roll.  Has this been an issue against other midrange decks, Kyle?

[Moxlotus]

I"ll also chime in on the castability of Street Wraith.  It is very surprising how many times he gets in for the beats.  Casting him in a stalled out game will give you the ability to win off a Tendrils for like 8 quickly.

[Whatever Works]

@ Grand Inquisitor - Trickbind is a scary card. Besides duress I have answer to besides being able try and recover, and win through a Yawgmoth's Will (if not used already) or with street wraith. Trickbind screws with every combo deck so its a fairly universal issue. I have noticed that most decks dont run it, but if the card starts to take off in popularity I mind start running Xantid Swarm, but I have maybe had trickbind cast 1 time on me in the last 5 tournements when I have played combo so I dont think about it to much.

My midgame hasnt really been to much of a problem. However, thats because of the great decrease in decks that are strong during the midgame/late game. Perhaps, that explains the success of bomberman in the northeast? Im not sure if there is even a tier 1 drain deck out right now. CS is to slow. Meandeck gifts got nuddered. Flash/Stax/Combo/Ichorid are all early game decks. That being the case my midgame hasnt been tested much (but I assume that GAT's growing popularity will change it). Most games dont play past turn 4-5 so I try not to let games reach that point, because I assume it could be a little tricky.

And yes. Steet Wraith allows me to not have to worry about running 2nd tendrils, and mind's desire into 3 of them is hillarious!

Kyle

[kombat]

I've been doing some extensive testing with this list, and I'm still on the fence regarding its potency.  In my experience, it seems this deck takes longer to reach critical mass than other, faster combo decks, but when it does, it really goes off like crazy.  Last night, one game resulted in 16 copies of Mind's Desire, which led to a Tendrils for at least 70.  Even the Street Wraiths have contributed to some pretty cute tricks.  In one game, my opponent attempted to cast a Trinisphere.  I Mystical Tutored up a Force of Will, cycled Street Wraith to draw it, then countered it.  However, overall I found my games against Stax difficult.  The combination of lock components (specifically Sphere of Resistance and Chalices), plus the vulnerability of my manabase (I lost a lot of games due to Wasteland/Crucible, given that the list only runs a single basic island and no swamps or forests), I wonder if the deck is too slow.

I haven't tried tweaking the list yet, but given that I now have some test sessions under my belt, it may be time to start making some adjustments.  Chalice for 1 cripples this deck.  Recurring Wastelands cripple this deck.  On the plus side, the Gushes enable it to combo off without needing to rely on its graveyard, which is heavily hated in the current metagame.

[Sarah Angel]

Haha, love this thread!

Awesome that you added tinker/colossus!  Even if it's only boarded.  (I like colossus alot.....)

[Whatever Works]

@ Kombat - Your analysis is both insightful and accurate, and mirrors a lot of what I have found. Its not the fastest combo deck as you pointed out, but then again it doesn't want or try to be either. Its funny that though its slower then the other combo decks in the format it absolutely DESTROYS combo in the mirror, and I wont give a percentage in my testing results because its so uneven that it could result in flames. However, ask any combo player that played vs. me with it (or hopfully one will post on this thread), and they will admit that Gush Tendrils has a strong matchup vs. the other tendrils combos.

To me street wraith is a 4 of in everything. I am a statistics player, and play all my games on probability and odds. With shuffle effects street wraith truly does make the deck 56 cards, and the life loss has never been an issue. Or at least not a big enough issue for me to even question its inclusion. Cutting it would be a massive mistake.

Stax is the hardest matchup for the deck by a mile. I feel this deck has over 50% vs. the rest of the format with maybe the acception of GAT that depends 100% on the skill level of the player. For example I would say that I would take about 35-40% of my game 1's vs. ELD or Scott Limoges who are the best GAT players I have ever met, and win say 55%+ vs. other GAT players.

Stax is a bad matchup, because this deck is essentially the GAT draw engine and is permanent light. The matchup is not unwinable by any stretch of the imagination, but I believe that there are a few steps that could be made to greatly increasing the chances. Your comment about basic lands is accurate and is being adressed! I am not sure speed plays to much of a role vs. stax, because a turn 1 trinisphere is a turn 1 trinisphere. Or a lock is a lock, and stays that way until you bounce the lock. Now, getting to a point of getting out of the lock is something that can be improved through the maindeck, and the sideboard.

I have an updated list that I feel adresses several of the problems vs. Stax, and greatly improves the deck as a whole. I will post my updated list later today with card choices, and explanations. I feel this is a tier 1 format defining deck on par with meandeck gifts (if not ahead of it), and should be a contender to win every event its played in if played well.

@ Sarah Angel - Thanks! I think its a good addition too, because its often a free win and is not to difficult to protect with the decks countermagic, and ability to misdirect bounce spells (nobody boards in rebuild vs. gush tendrils =p)

Thanks for the feedback. I will post my updated list later!

Kyle