G/W Land Stomp

[powerkor]

My name's Eric, this is my first post on themanadrain, so I'd like to say Hi! and hope I get some good suggestions and such from all of you! Thanks for helping me out with this...

Here's the deck:
// Lands
        7 Forest
        2 Plains
        1 Horizon Canopy
        4 Savannah
        1 Strip Mine
        1 Temple Garden
// Creatures
        2 Birds of Paradise
        4 Wood Elves
        4 Argothian Wurm
// Enchantments
        2 Aura Shards
        2 Limited Resources
        1 Sylvan Library
// Spells
        1 Enlightened Tutor
        2 Giant Growth
        2 Mana Tithe
        4 Swords to Plowshares
        1 Worldly Tutor
        4 Mwonvuli Acid-Moss
        4 Nature's Lore
        4 Reap and Sow
        2 Wrath of God
// Artifacts
        2 Horn of Greed
        1 Planar Portal
        1 Scroll Rack
        1 Sol Ring

What I want to accomplish is a quick way to mana screw my opponent, eventually locking them down completely.
I am looking for suggestions for different cards, if you think that a card in this deck does not fit
Also, I would like your opinion on Thresher Beast as a possible addition to the stompy part of this deck

If you do not think this is T1 worthy, tell why, if you think it has potential, let me know how I can make it better. I've been changing it up and play testing for a few months and the current setup seems to be fast paced (with all the land digs) and land destruct, control spells/affects that support it.

Thanks!

[The Demon]

My name's Eric, this is my first post on themanadrain, so I'd like to say Hi! and hope I get some good suggestions and such from all of you! Thanks for helping me out with this...

Here's the deck:
// Lands
        7 Forest
        2 Plains
        1 Horizon Canopy
        4 Savannah
        1 Strip Mine
        1 Temple Garden
// Creatures
        2 Birds of Paradise
        4 Wood Elves
        4 Argothian Wurm
// Enchantments
        2 Aura Shards
        2 Limited Resources
        1 Sylvan Library
// Spells
        1 Enlightened Tutor
        2 Giant Growth
        2 Mana Tithe
        4 Swords to Plowshares
        1 Worldly Tutor
        4 Mwonvuli Acid-Moss
        4 Nature's Lore
        4 Reap and Sow
        2 Wrath of God
// Artifacts
        2 Horn of Greed
        1 Planar Portal
        1 Scroll Rack
        1 Sol Ring

What I want to accomplish is a quick way to mana screw my opponent, eventually locking them down completely.
I am looking for suggestions for different cards, if you think that a card in this deck does not fit
Also, I would like your opinion on Thresher Beast as a possible addition to the stompy part of this deck

If you do not think this is T1 worthy, tell why, if you think it has potential, let me know how I can make it better. I've been changing it up and play testing for a few months and the current setup seems to be fast paced (with all the land digs) and land destruct, control spells/affects that support it.

Thanks!

I always hate to quash the idea of someone, but your deck really has no chance to compete.  It is to slow against combo or ichorid, it walks into mana drains, and to top it all off stax locks down faster then your deck does.  However if you really wanted to try to go that route I would suggest adding four elvish spirit guides (to speed up your LD by a turn) and running at least three wastelands main.  Cut Wood elves entirely for two more Birds of Paradise and two Llanowar Elves. Other then that the only thing left to suggest is looking at a few of the Ichorid threads for a cheap quality deck.

[runeblayde]

My name's Eric, this is my first post on themanadrain, so I'd like to say Hi! and hope I get some good suggestions and such from all of you! Thanks for helping me out with this...

Here's the deck:
// Lands
        7 Forest
        2 Plains
        1 Horizon Canopy
        4 Savannah
        1 Strip Mine
        1 Temple Garden
// Creatures
        2 Birds of Paradise
        4 Wood Elves
        4 Argothian Wurm
// Enchantments
        2 Aura Shards
        2 Limited Resources
        1 Sylvan Library
// Spells
        1 Enlightened Tutor
        2 Giant Growth
        2 Mana Tithe
        4 Swords to Plowshares
        1 Worldly Tutor
        4 Mwonvuli Acid-Moss
        4 Nature's Lore
        4 Reap and Sow
        2 Wrath of God
// Artifacts
        2 Horn of Greed
        1 Planar Portal
        1 Scroll Rack
        1 Sol Ring

What I want to accomplish is a quick way to mana screw my opponent, eventually locking them down completely.
I am looking for suggestions for different cards, if you think that a card in this deck does not fit
Also, I would like your opinion on Thresher Beast as a possible addition to the stompy part of this deck

If you do not think this is T1 worthy, tell why, if you think it has potential, let me know how I can make it better. I've been changing it up and play testing for a few months and the current setup seems to be fast paced (with all the land digs) and land destruct, control spells/affects that support it.

Thanks!

This deck will certainly have trouble holding it's own against today's tier 1 decks, especially ichorid with such little reliance on mana at all.  However, if Waterbury is not your goal, I think with a significant overhaul, this deck could have some potential to be effective.  One thing with vintage is that mana often doesn't come from lands alone.  You need Chalice of the Void/Null Rod (also ET targets) to be able to cut those off.  You also need to be able to reach your denial faster than they can reach their win condition.  So The Demon's suggestion of ESGs is a good one, as well as any moxen of your own.  I'll give you my take on the breakdown of this deck:

Horizon Canopy - I like this card.  The pain isn't substantial and the ability to sac it for a card is great.  But you run only one and have no way of recursion.  Maybe a mana base that uses Canopies, Strip, Wastes, Windswept Heaths, Savannahs and Life from the Loam to recur them wouldn't be a bad start.  It fuels your Land Destruction, Draw and your own mana development.  Perhaps adding Exploration/Fastbond might not be a bad idea for some more acceleration and disruption potential.

Birds - This should be a 4x and no wood elves I agree.

Argothian Wurm - You have to win somehow, this works.

...be back for more later...

[powerkor]

This is exactly the kind of replies I was looking for, thank you for your input, I will have to buy the heaths and 2 more birds, but I do agree with what has been said.

Secondly, I HATE when people tell me that my deck has no chance because its not one of the popular decks at the time
i like to build a deck that is unique and still effective. It may not be as good as flash, ichorid, etc... but that is not the goal of magic, and definitely not mine.
If all you care about is winning, go for it, but I like variety.
Yes, the argument above could go on forever, but to each his own and lets move on to something worth talking about.
I understand I have to remove and add some things in here to have a chance at winning, and I agree... so I appreciate what has been said so far.

As always, my hears and eyes are open for suggestions.

OUT: 4 Wood Elves, 2 Forests, 2 Plains, 1 Giant Growth, 1 Planar Portal
OUT to SB: 2 Aura Shards
IN: 2 Birds, 4 Windswept Heath, 4 Elvish S Guide ... the heaths are going to send me back a few $

// Lands
        4 Windswept Heath
        4 Horizon Canopy
        4 Savannah
        1 Strip Mine
        3 Temple Garden
// Creatures
        4 Birds of Paradise
        4 Argothian Wurm
        4 Elvish Spirit Guide
// Enchantments
        2 Limited Resources
        1 Sylvan Library
// Spells
        1 Enlightened Tutor
        2 Giant Growth
        2 Mana Tithe
        4 Swords to Plowshares
        1 Worldly Tutor
        4 Mwonvuli Acid-Moss
        4 Nature's Lore
        4 Reap and Sow
        2 Wrath of God
// Artifacts
        2 Horn of Greed
        1 Scroll Rack
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Lotus Petal

[Skadrian]

if you want to use limited resources as a lock I would play at least 3, and you will need more land destruction. You only have 9, asuming you use all the reap and sow for destruction. Crucible of worlds + stripmine is a very good land destruction combo, I would add it. If you want to use it under resources you would need something that lets you drop extra lands, exploration and fastbond are great for that purpose, and they are good before that. A lot of vintage decks dont play a lot of land, so you could easily get to 5 land fast, drop resources and play 2 more land so the opponent is already behind.
You would still need something to keep away artifact land, CotV or nullrod work for that purpose, and sphere of resistance is good when you lock their mana, and to slow them down, something this deck needs.

[GrandpaBelcher]

I've seen a deck similar to this (piloted by Mark Trogdon), using both Argothian Wurm and Shivan Wumpus.  Using those and some acceleration (ESG and SSG?) and some way to hose artifacts (Null Rod?  Mox Monkey?) and some more ways to destroy lands (he was running Ghost Quarters, Wastelands and Strip Mines, and I think Boom & Bust), you could have a fun, surprising deck.  It sure kicked the crap out of Fish.

[runeblayde]

An update already, great!

If you are going for the Limited Resources lock you will need more than 2

I think Giant Growth is out of place in this deck, as you are not playing the aggro, that could free up a couple of spots for wastes or more LD spells.

I like Mana Tithe and think it is underplayed, it could certainly be used in a deck like this.

Swords is great piece, especially when you have a lot of aggro in your meta, I assume that's also why you include Wrath.

Instead of Worldly Tutor, as you don't have a creature toolbox to justify the -1 Card Advantage, you could up the threat count.  Exalted Angel/Eternal Dragon?

Mwonvuli Acid-Moss/Reap and Sow are sub-par LD cards, Ice Storm is probably better, or if you're looking to save a few $$ Winter's Grasp/Thermokarst are good alternatives that will be online a turn before the two you have right now, and getting your disruption online fast is your first priority.

Nature's Lore could be dropped for a couple of lands and a couple of free spaces.

Horn of Greed also likes Land recursion, via Crucible or Life from the Loam.  Crucible is more vulnerable but is only a one time investment of mana.  LftL is much more resilient and would be my pick if you run into much control or artifact hate. 

[powerkor]

I like acid-moss because it takes one land of theres and i get to play a land from my deck, helping the lock down. I see what you are saying though. Reap and Sow is really subpar, but recursion is good, like you said... its sorta like an acid-moss, for 2 more, but I do understand it isnt the best choice, but I don't think its totally out of place either.

Good call on the giant growth... i'll add more mana tithe to make 4 and then go from there

[powerkor]

update:

// Lands
        4 Horizon Canopy
        4 Savannah
        1 Strip Mine
        4 Temple Garden
        4 Windswept Heath
// Creatures
        4 Birds of Paradise
        4 Argothian Wurm
        4 Elvish Spirit Guide
// Enchantments
        1 Aura Shards
        3 Limited Resources
        1 Sylvan Library
// Spells
        1 Enlightened Tutor
        4 Mana Tithe
        4 Swords to Plowshares
        1 Life from the Loam
        4 Mwonvuli Acid-Moss
        4 Reap and Sow
        2 Wrath of God
// Artifacts
        2 Horn of Greed
        2 Null Rod
        1 Scroll Rack
        1 Sol Ring

how does this look now?

[runeblayde]

I would go with

-4 Reap and Sow
-1 Scroll Rack

+4 Wasteland
+1 Life From the Loam

and maybe fiddle around with it a little more from there.

[Nydaeli]

Run Root Maze.  Four of them.  They hose fetchlands, which is huge, and they slow down everything else too.

[powerkor]

BTW I refuse to make this a crucible deck, which is what it is turning into

[Implacable]

If you refuse to make this a Crucible deck, that's fine.  I think that Life from the Loam is probably better anyway.  The problem with your current decklist was not put bluntly enough, even by The Demon.  The fact of the matter is that your deck, as is, cannot compete in Type 1.  Variety is great, but being competitive is more important.  Your deck cannot beat Ichorid, Flash, Long, Oath, Slaver, Drain Tendrils, Stax, GAT, Gush Tendrils, Bomberman, or Dragon.  However, changes can be made, and the concept of a G/W aggro/mana-denial deck may not be without merit.  Let's explore the concept:

1) Mana denial must be spread among artifacts and lands to be effective in Type 1.  This is because much of the mana used by a typical Type 1 player will come from the 10 artifacts ubiquitous in the format: the five Moxen, the two Lotuses, Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, and Mana Vault.  This is perfectly fine.  A land destruction element will definitely include some quantity of Wasteland and Strip Mine.  It may also include mana denial, like Root Maze, or Limited Resources.  However, LR is much too slow to be any good in Type 1.  Artifact denial centers around the tried and true Null Rod and Chalice of the Void. 

2) A deck like this needs fast finishers to acommodate for the fact that it is fundamentally underpowered.  That's fine.  Green and White are hardly lacking for a healthy variety of big men.  Among your mana options are Argothian Wurm (who may be slow and unwieldy, but is worth consideration), Vinelasher Kudzu (a very good card in any Loam deck), Jotun Grunt, & Wild Mongrel.  Small aggro options include Savannah Lions, Isamaru, Hound of Konda, and Basking Rootwalla.

Let's take these two factors into account and put a decklist into play:

4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Wild Mongrel
3 Jotun Grunt
2 Savannah Lions
1 Argothian Wurm
1 Isamaru, Hound of Konda

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Life from the Loam
4 Root Maze
3 Pithing Needle (these are quite good in Vintage right now)
3 Sylvan Library (how amazing are these guys?!)
2 Null Rod

4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
20 Mana Sources

Of course, this is merely a rough outlook on a potential decklist.  However, it is disruptive, fast, and resilient.  What more can you ask from an aggro deck?

[runeblayde]

While trying to keep with the original feel of the deck, I think that you do need to run some form of strip/waste recursion for LD to be effective.  Life from the Loam does Crucible's job extremely well, if not better, and still doesn't have to be the main focus of the deck, it's just a very strong card for what you are trying to do.  I disagree with root maze as you are not playing aggro atm.  If you do go that way, it's a great card, but with what I think you are trying to do, I think you only end up slowing yourself as much as your opponent for -1 CA, putting you at the disadvantage for running the card.  Limited Resources can be a pretty slow lock to get out, but with Exploration/Fastbond + LftL you can overcome that I think, only some actual play will tell the truth on that score.

[powerkor]

LftL + Wasteland and Strip > Acid-moss etc, b/c in T1 ppl play non-basics, b/c it goes with the format
Chalice of the Void to deny Moxen and other 0's

What do you recommend I use so I can abuse the Dredge ability of LftL?

[powerkor]

So, what I have come to conclude maybe is that I can use Sylvan Library with LftL to fuel a faster deck.

So, the question is how can I abuse this? Should I do a GB reanimate with dredge? or something more unique.

I already know that Limited Resources will not work in T1 very well, so now that I have dredging and land recursion, what should I do with it or what else SHOULD i do?

[netherspirit]

So, the question is how can I abuse this? Should I do a GB reanimate with dredge? or something more unique.

Only if you can get 4 Bazaar of Baghdad.

Regrowth and Balance both might be worth adding.

[runeblayde]

Here's a decklist I put together with a splash of black for protection and tutorage.


// Lands
    4 Horizon Canopy
    4 Windswept Heath
    1 Strip Mine
    4 Wasteland
    1 Savannah
    4 Bayou
    1 Taiga
    4 Gemstone Mine

// Creatures
    4 Birds of Paradise
    3 Terravore

// Spells
    4 Chalice of the Void
    2 Null Rod
    1 Engineered Explosives
    1 Vampiric Tutor
    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Enlightened Tutor
    4 Life from the Loam
    1 Fastbond
    4 Duress
    1 Swords to Plowshares
    2 Glittering Wish
    4 Ice Storm
    1 Wrath of God
    2 Thermokarst
    1 Damnation

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 Dueling Grounds
SB: 1 Spiritmonger
SB: 1 Artifact Mutation
SB: 1 Vindicate
SB: 1 Aura Mutation

It actually ran pretty well against some fully powered decks like GT and as long as it got the null rod or Chalice at 0 to stick early.  It's a pretty bad matchup vs. cheap aggro, but a little more fleshing out of the SB and maindeck may offer a better gameplan.  Maybe Maze of Ith.

Regrowth might not be bad, but balance...balance is a great card but I think it would far too often force you down to 1 or 0 lands by casting it.

dredge/reanimator is a fairly established deck and a lot different than what you're trying to do here.  I don't think that you're really looking to abuse the dredge mechanic for filling up your library so much as you are trying to fuel the recursion of your lands for draw and LD, that doesn't really require a lot of dredging, and any extra dredging you might need can be accomplished by your canopies that you are recurring.

[zulander]

I'd agree that this deck won't exactly win any vintage world championships but as a casual deck it'll do fine. If you're able to afford it I'd recommend playing 4 berserks. And there's this new guy out, his name is Tarmogoyf. He's almost always a 4/5 for 1G. He also wrecks houses and saves kitty cats from trees. Play 4 of him. For evasion guys I'd recommend looking at Silhana Ledgwalker(she is a bit small though) and River Boa's. Have you also looked at maybe adding in a couple Bounty of the Hunts? I personally think the X-land stompy version would do quite well

[LotusHead]

If you are going for budget or no proxy GW stompy, why not give Armageddon a spin?  If you have dudes, and your opponent doesn't, you win. Mana Drain be dammned!

[zulander]

I'd agree that null rod + Armageddon = bad times for your opponent.

[silvernail]

If I were gonna play some kind of BGW disruption deck in type 1 I'd try something like this:

// Lands
    4 Wasteland
    1 Strip Mine
    3 Horizon Canopy
    4 Gemstone Mine
    4 Windswept Heath
    3 Bayou
    1 Savannah
    1 Scrubland
    1 Nomad Stadium
    1 Nantuko Monastery
// Creatures
    3 Dark Confidant
    4 Birds of Paradise
    3 Terravore
    1 Eternal Dragon
    1 Genesis
// Spells
    3 Life from the Loam
    1 Fastbond
    4 Duress
    3 Cabal Therapy
    4 Vindicate
    4 Null Rod
    1 Vampiric Tutor
    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Enlightened Tutor
    1 Solitary Confinement
    1 Ghostly Prison
    1 Pernicious Deed
// Sideboard
SB: 2 Ghostly Prison
SB: 1 Pernicious Deed
SB: 2 Armageddon
SB: 2 Aura of Silence
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void

This version has a few more tricks up its sleeve, though it would defintely be capable of bing stronger once tuned to a specific metagame.

[powerkor]

I just ordered my last 2 BOP, making 4
and I now have 4 LftL and 4 Vinelasher

Since I now have LftL, i can get rid of all the ridiculous 4-6 cost 1 land destruct and play Armaggedon (which I have 4 of already) without fear. I am also thinking Harmonize and Sylvan Library to get card advantage

Since I do not have null rods at the moment or chalice, what do you think of either aura of slience or suppression field as a poor man's rod and chalice? I no its not that good, but its better than nothing

[SimonCopp]

Here's the list i've made in like 15 minutes. UWG sirs.

Mox Pearl
Mox Emerald
Mox Sapphire
Black Lotus
3 Null Rod

2 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
4 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland

4 Wild Mongrel
4 Meddling Mage
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Kataki, War's Wage

1 Fastbond

3 Life From the Loam

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Mystical Tutor
3 Echoing Truth
4 Brainstorm
4 Force Of Will
4 Daze

[silvernail]

Umm he was not looking for a u/w/g fish list dude.....

[Dr_Tongue]

Why not just play legacy? Most of the cards you wanted to play are 1.5 legal and you would at least get a few turns. T1 decks are fast or they lock you down via Prison. You get raped all the way around it looks like.

Honestly, you can't do anything about someone going broken on you on turn 1 (or 2 I'll argue for that matter). So why not just switch formats with the deck rather than enter the big leagues with it?  AAA ball can be fun as well....

[powerkor]

I just i am just fimilar with t1... never considered 1.5, ill research it i guess

[Spacebalzz]

Just because this was actually a really fun post to read I'll throw out some ideas.  If you're wanting to go with a G/W mana-denial type deal, try running Root Maze and Null Rod with Fallow Earth.  Nothing pisses someone off more than losing their draw and their land drop    Since you're running white also, look into Disempower.  Its always fun to put Mox's on the tops of libraries, and it gets rid of DSC, Titan, and Platz.

Maybe something like this:

// Mana
        4 Savannah
        4 Brushland
        4 Horizon Canopy
        4 Wasteland
        2 Forest
        1 Plains
        1 Strip Mine
        1 Lotus Petal
// Creatures
        4 Birds of Paradise
        4 Tarmogoyf
        3 Aven Mindcensor
        2 Blurred Mongoose
        2 Savannah Lions
        1 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
// Disruption
        4 Chalice of the Void
        4 Root Maze
        4 Ice Storm
        4 Fallow Earth
        3 Null Rod
        2 Disempower
        2 Swords to Plowshares

If you're wanting to get super-crazy, use the old "Wall of Blossoms/Stampeding Wildebeasts" draw engine.  Old school dude.

Just some thoughts.

-Matt