[Deck] Grim Lavamancer Control

[netherspirit]

I've come to the conclusion that although there are very few decent red disruption cards a red control deck can still be built.

The deck works on a very simple idea: there are two ways for your opponent to win in Vintage, pound you with creatures or eat you with Tendrils of Agony.

So, surely a deck that can stop both of these things from happening will be able to beat most decks, no? Of course, your opponent will try to stop you from preventing their win conditions, but when you are a lot faster than them and can be dealing significant amounts of damage every turn from turn one onwards, they will have a tough time.

Here's the deck so far:

Mana Base:
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Ruby
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
9 Mountain

Creatures:
4 Grim Lavamancer

Removal:
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Pyromania

Lock Pieces:
1 Trinisphere
3 Sphere of Resistance
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Null Rod
4 Blood Moon

Kill Conditions:
4 Black Vise
3 The Rack

Other:
3 Ensnaring Bridge

Sideboard:
3 Pithing Needle
2 Rack and Ruin
2 Echoing Ruin
1 Pyroclasm
3 Goblin Welder
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast

Right, I'll now explain the cards.

Grim Lavamancer - Kills creatures and helps to kill your opponent.

Lightning Bolt - Will stop nearly every creature in Vintage and can cause significant damage to your opponent.

Pyromania - Helps damage creatures and your opponent, provides cards for Grim Lavamancer and has brilliant synergy with Ensnaring Bridge.

Trinisphere and Sphere of Resistance - The deck's best way to win is with Black Vise, so these two help with that route a lot and stop your opponent from dropping threats.

Chalice of the Void - Great against combo, which is one of my biggest threats.

Null Rod - Further helps with Black Vise and is very one-sided as I only run two artifact accelerants.

Blood Moon - Stops fetchlands, Wastelands, Strip Mine, Tolarian Academy, Mishra's Workshop, dual lands and other annoying nonbasic lands.

Black Vise - Quick damage that can be sustained for quite a while.

The Rack - Stops my opponent from dropping their hand to get around Black Vise.

Ensnaring Bridge - Prevents my opponent from beating me down with creatures.

The sideboard is tuned to stop artifacts as Stax can be difficult to beat and Chalice@1 is brutal against me.

Well that's it! Any comments, criticism or ideas about the deck would be appreciated.

netherspirit

[Serenity]

hi
the decks seems to be a combination of burn and stax lock pieces???

so why don`t add blue????

for forces, stifles and maybe daze....
i would play it alike a ur fish with more lock parts if you like to play them....

trinissphere and sphere of resistance are very good lockcomponents.

but i would like to add the mox monkey (gorilla shaman) and nulll rod for early disruption...

maybe I'm wrong but that seems to me to be the best way to play this deck...

serenity

[wethepeople]

You are going to have a very difficult time getting any of your lock pieces into play before they kill you without full acceleration. That means Sol Ring, Mana Vault, Mana Crypt, Lotus Petal, Ancient Tomb, Mox Jet, Lotus, etc etc -- like all prison decks should.

[netherspirit]

You are going to have a very difficult time getting any of your lock pieces into play before they kill you without full acceleration. That means Sol Ring, Mana Vault, Mana Crypt, Lotus Petal, Ancient Tomb, Mox Jet, Lotus, etc etc -- like all prison decks should.

Rather than adding artifact mana sources such as other moxen, what about Mishra's Workshop?

[wethepeople]

You are going to have a very difficult time getting any of your lock pieces into play before they kill you without full acceleration. That means Sol Ring, Mana Vault, Mana Crypt, Lotus Petal, Ancient Tomb, Mox Jet, Lotus, etc etc -- like all prison decks should.

Rather than adding artifact mana sources such as other moxen, what about Mishra's Workshop?

I would rather use Moxen+Tomb because they will allow you to cast an early Blood Moon. One other card that I forgot to mention was Simian Spirit Guide, which has traditionally been a strong card in my Blood Moon-based decks, because not only does it serve as a mana accelerant, but as a creature as well.

If you are to follow the above suggestions, I would also cut Lightning Bolts for Gathan Raiders. This will allow you to play Chalice for one (not zero, because it will counter Morph creatures). I have a list I would be willing to post that is somewhat similar to what you are implying.

[President Skroob]

My first statement would be a close echo of what wethepeople said. You want some more acceleration. I'm not sure if that means you need to go all out as he advocates, but at least run all five Moxen and probably Sol Ring. The reasoning behind this is pretty simple. You have numerous decent one drops, and dropping multiples of those on the first turn is going to be a lot more threatening than moving up at a steady curve. Also, Blood Moon becomes a significantly worse card after each turn that it is not in play. If you drop it first turn on the play, you may have just won the game right there against some decks. If you're looking at it as a turn three play, your opponent, if they know what you're playing, has already fetched out a basic land and will play around your Blood Moon. It's a bomb if you drop it fast, but it's a total blank if you drop it late when they've prepared for it. Basically, all the lock pieces in your deck are better early on, and you want to facilitate that as best you can. Even accelerating into a first turn Null Rod can be very nice, as there are many decks that it hurts a lot more than your own.

I'm also not sure that the eight fetchlands are necessary in a mono-red deck. They thin your deck, but it's practically inconsequential. I can see the benefits, but I'm not sure it's worth the damage or the possibility of Stifle hurting your manabase (as you have few other good Stifle targets for a Stifle player). You might actually be mana-heavy, but it's hard for me to say. Especially if you add in some extra Moxen, you could probably get away with cutting out some Mountains/fetchlands.

Pyromania and The Rack seem like weak choices to me. Pyromania is a lot of cost for a fairly weak effect. I realize that it combos with Ensnaring Bridge, but once you have Bridge on the board you are at the top of your mana curve and should be able to play any spell in your deck. The Rack punishes people for having too few cards in hand, which is already a punishment in itself. If they're out of cards in hand, you're already on your way to winning through other means. It's not that it's a bad choice, but I really feel you could find something better in its place, as well as in Pyromania's.

On top of my list to replace it with would be maindeck Pyroblasts. There's a reason why people joke that Islands are the most overpowered cards in Vintage, and a mono-red deck is the ideal place to make those pesky water mages pay. Pyroblasts, as opposed to REBs (which I still might sideboard a few of because they are SO good against blue playing decks), can also be cast on a random permanent at EOT in order to fuel your Lavamancers in a matchup where Pyroblasts aren't useful.

Null Rod is a really good card. I'd strongly consider playing four. The theory is that "when effects don't stack, stick to three instead of four," but Null Rod has a quasi-stacking ability in that they become much harder to answer when a second one is on the table. With two Null Rods out, Chain of Vapor or single target artifact destruction spells don't cut it, and they have to either fetch up Echoing Truth or Rebuild/Hurkyl's Recall. That's good in some cases, and in some it's just a minor setback for the opponent. On the other hand, though, more early Null Rods is a hot, hot thing.

You may consider running Magus of the Moon over Blood Moon. He's a bit more vulnerable to hate in Vintage, but most of the commonly played anti-creature hate either does only one damage or only affects creature players who are running Plains, which are very silly lands. He beats for two and disrupts the opponent while having the same cost as the enchantment. It's pretty cool.

And let us speak of your sideboard. I find your artifact destruction spells to be weak. You're playing mono-red and you're afraid of Chalice 1. Shattering Spree is the absolute best card in your case. You can play it through Chalice 1 and you should have enough mana to make it a big pain for your opponent if they're playing a bunch of artifacts. I'd drop the four spells with "Ruin" in the title for four Shattering Sprees.

Goblin Welder would be really good even maindeck if you ran some more Moxen and wanted to keep using Pyromania, or even if you didn't. Dropping a Null Rodded Mox for a lock piece that they countered can be a sweet deal. Still, he's not utterly necessary, just basically gravy. If it were me, I'd tend to maindeck him or not play him at all.


All in all, I think you could use a few stronger cards to focus your gameplan a bit. Being able to field Blood Moon is pretty good in today's meta, and that's why I would seriously avoid adding a second color as has been suggested. Blue will steer you off the course that you're trying to get and will make Blood Moon a very painful play for your deck as well as your opponent's.

[wethepeople]

Here is the list that I made for a friend of mine (who plays under a budget, with fifteen proxies), once Future Sight became legal. I haven't modified it very much lately, but I am sure that it is atleast worth looking at.

Full Moon Stax:

Lock Pieces:
4 Blood Moon
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Tangle Wire
1 Trinisphere

Land:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Barbarian Ring
3 Mountain
3 Wasteland
1 Crystal Vein
1 Strip Mine
2 Bazaar of Baghdad

Acceleration:
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring

Other:
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Serum Powder

Just by looking at it you probably picked up on all of the "debatable" selections.

I will begin by saying that it is "Stax-less". You then ask "Why do you even call it Stax? It doesn't run full Tangle Wires, Crucibals, or even Mishra's Workshop. WTF mate?"

Smokestack is difficult to cast without Mishra's Workshop, and I myself, in addition to many others think that it is too slow for our format. I prefer using the more inexpensive disruption that is castable solely off Moxen, or Ancient Tomb. Shop mana will not help me when trying to cast the strongest overall piece of disruption in the deck- Blood Moon, so I choose not to run it. The only cards it can really cast are Spheres, Chalices, and Tangle Wires. However, aside from Tangle Wire (which you generally don't want to play turn one), Ancient Tomb is also able to cast each of those just as easily.

1 Crystal Vein

Crystal Vein has been in and out a lot. It originally replaced City of Traitors so I would have a permanent land, that can also provide double mana if I need to. I don't usually need to sacrifice it, but on the occasion, I have no other acceleration to allow me to play a certain card. It is currently just a 1'of so I have five Ancient Tombs, and I imagine that it will not rise.

4 Serum Powder

Powder was originally something to make mulliganing easier for the friend in which I made the deck for (he is a fairly new player), but it has proven to be helpful much of the time. Drawing them late game obviously isn't lovely, but at it's least it can work as a 3-mana Darksteel Citadel that I can use simply as a permanent to tap for Wires, etc. This led me to include Bazaar of Baghdad, a card which creates a draw engine by filtering out dead, or unwanted cards. I only run two Bazaars because there is no real way that I can abuse it (no Uba Mask/ Cruci).

Aside from those, the rest of the list is pretty simple, which was the exact reason why I made it. I don't know what exactly I'd do to make it non-budget, or more complex, but it atleast provides a skeleton for people who choose to develop the deck even more.

[wierdmtg13]

i think you should run 1 less of both the bloodmoon and the magus and also cut the sreum powders.  Inplace of those you should run mox monkeys, crucibles, and REB's.

[madmanmike25]

i think you should run 1 less of both the bloodmoon and the magus and also cut the sreum powders.  Inplace of those you should run mox monkeys, crucibles, and REB's.

I agree to an extent.  I would cut 2 Bloodmoon's before cutting the first Magus.  Magus is useful in multiples whereas BMoon is not.  Both provide the same effect and are vulnerable to the most common form of removal, bounce. 

Serum Powder also does not seem to fit this deck.  What's next, Street Wraith?  But if you have tested it and are pleased, then use the powder.  I only hope your 2 Bazaar's can compensate drawing one of these useless topdecks.

I would recommend:
-2 BloodMoon (leaving you 6 BMoon effects)
-4 Serum Powder

+2 Null Rod
+4 REB/Pyroblast

SSG+REB/Pyro is as close to FoW as red will ever get.  The prevalence of blue warrants it's inclusion in this deck.

I realize the focus is not on the original decklist, but it appears that wethepeoples decklist is far superior.

*EDIT
Cut the Crystal Vein and play with the 4th Wasteland.  Total non-basic land domination will commence

[wethepeople]

Yes, the list that I posted is obviously very janky. Serum Powders were added so my friend of mine, who is a newer player in search of plaing Vintage competatively could have an easier time deciding to keep, or mulligan before the game even begins. This is one of the hardest things for new players because it forces you to think over almost your entire game, before a single thing even happens, so being able to mulligan without worrying about card disadvantage seemed helpful. A card that I used in it's place for some time was Viashino Heretic, for it's ability to stall Fish for quite a while, and work as a stronger, yet more-expensive Gorilla Shaman.

The reason that I chose to not play REB's were my own Chalice of the Voids. Using Tombs/accel, I generally like to cast a turn one Chalice of the Void with one counter on it. This is a fairly common early game play, so I tried to avoid any unwanted interactions by choosing to not play 1cc spells entirely.

I have always been slightly more interested in Blood Moon than Magus. There may be an issue with redundancy, but in addition to bounce, Magus is accessable to one other form of removal. Pyroclasm, being a red card, is very easy to use when trying to break out of the Mountain-lock. I've seen it boarded in several times for Fish, and it works the same versus this. Massacre also can be hardcasted with the help of Cabal, or Dark Ritual, casted by a leak in my "lock" via basic Swamp. Although these cases may be somewhat uncommon, throughout the long games that this deck brings there are many opportunities for the gamestate to shift entirely.

If I were to make one change in this deck judging from testing, I would cut Crystal Vein for a third Bazaar of Baghdad. Bazaar has been awesome in here because the deck needs no more than 3 mana, so it's drawback of costing you a land drop is rarely relevent. The only reason I've chosen not to run three is because it was originially built under a proxy-limit.

Like I said before, I don't really work with this deck much at all. I originally tried to create it using cards that he actually owned, to avoid having to spend so much money. People may be interested in improving on the idea, which I would be glad to try and help do also.

[WhiteWolf]

@ wethepeople: Isn't Bazaar just a Mountain 9 out of 10? Seeing that you play 8 Moons and want to drop one in every match-up it probably lands on the board the first or second turn, before Bazaar ever becomes relevant. I totally agree with Bazaar as a card filter in aggro and prison decks but together with 8 Moons? Maybe Mindstorm Crown or Bottled Cloister could provide some draw?

[madmanmike25]

The reason that I chose to not play REB's were my own Chalice of the Voids. Using Tombs/accel, I generally like to cast a turn one Chalice of the Void with one counter on it.

On the play you would opt to cast Chalice @ 1 BEFORE Chalice @ 0?  I guess it is a matter of personal preference, but statistically speaking wouldn't 0 be the better Chalice?

I have always been slightly more interested in Blood Moon than Magus. There may be an issue with redundancy, but in addition to bounce, Magus is accessable to one other form of removal. Pyroclasm, being a red card, is very easy to use when trying to break out of the Mountain-lock. I've seen it boarded in several times for Fish, and it works the same versus this. Massacre also can be hardcasted with the help of Cabal, or Dark Ritual, casted by a leak in my "lock" via basic Swamp. Although these cases may be somewhat uncommon, throughout the long games that this deck brings there are many opportunities for the gamestate to shift entirely.

You make good points.  Only thing is, they all occure POST SB.  You need to do all the dmg you can, and a redundant BMoon is not optimal.  I think the deck needs a more aggressive approach, if you want to focus primarily on control you should be playing blue.  This is a red deck, and as such needs to do as much dmg as possible before the disruption wears off (and it will).

People may be interested in improving on the idea, which I would be glad to try and help do also.

Sometimes it's difficult to help with a deck's design where there are limitations(proxy/playskill).  I always try to give advice to make the deck as competitive as possible, disregarding such constraints.  As such, yes the Crystal Vein should be either a Wasteland or the 3rd Bazaar.

@ wethepeople: Isn't Bazaar just a Mountain 9 out of 10? Seeing that you play 8 Moons and want to drop one in every match-up it probably lands on the board the first or second turn, before Bazaar ever becomes relevant. I totally agree with Bazaar as a card filter in aggro and prison decks but together with 8 Moons? Maybe Mindstorm Crown or Bottled Cloister could provide some draw?

True to an extent.  Bazaar will either act as a filter, or become a basic mountain.  I wouldn't cut it merely because it *could* lose its abilities.  His list only runs 3 mountains(enough?) so having 3 more after a resolved BMoon effect isn't too horrible.  BMoon effects shouldn't exclude using non-basic lands the same way that Null Rod does not exclude playin with moxen.

Cloister is nice but 4 mana dictates that it belongs in Shop decks....and we don't even see that too often, though I know both you and I have tried it.

It's a shame that Mindstorm Crown has synergy with the Bazaar's it would replace, why don't they make a better card drawing artifact????


Here is my proposed decklist:

'You've got red on you.'(From what movie?)

Lock Pieces/Disruption: 25  (enought for ya?)
2 Blood Moon
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Tangle Wire
1 Trinisphere
2 Null Rod
4 REB/Pyro

Land: 19
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Barbarian Ring
3 Mountain
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
3 Bazaar of Baghdad

Acceleration: 12
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring

Critters: 4
4 Gathan Raiders

Based off WTP's list no less.  I think the SSG's can easly take the place of Lotus Petal and the Tombs should provide enough mana for an almost guaranteed turn 2 or turn 1 BMoon/Magus.

I think it looks fairly solid on paper.  If the Petal is truly needed then add it back in by all means.  I'll try to build it out sometime and give it a test drive.

Thoughts/Comments?

[wethepeople]

On issues regarding Chalice of the Void:
In this deck, I almost always try and cast Chalice for one if I can. If for some reason I am tapped out, or I manage to cast a turn one Blood Moon, I'd love to drop Chalice to completely shut off their color-sources by coutering Moxen too. However, versus Combo, and GAT, Chalice for one makes it very difficult for them to get anyway, let alone break free of the Moon-lock. This prevents plays that answer Magus like Swamp into Dark Rit, and hardcasting Massacre, etc etc. Lastly, a Chalice for zero can be problematic when trying to Morph in a Raider. You can still hardcast it, which is my general answer, but this prevents you from attacking for another few turns, and it may very well cost you the game.

People may be interested in improving on the idea, which I would be glad to try and help do also.

Sometimes it's difficult to help with a deck's design where there are limitations(proxy/playskill).  I always try to give advice to make the deck as competitive as possible, disregarding such constraints.  As such, yes the Crystal Vein should be either a Wasteland or the 3rd Bazaar.

Well lists using the idea don't necessarily have to be restricted to a certain proxy limit, but that list that I posted was soley so a good friend of mine could begin playing again, and have as little trouble doing so as possible. I may try and update my list a bit, but I've been a little squeezed for time lately, and when I do test, it's testing a different deck that I plan to play in just a few days.

If I were to create a list right now, it'd no doubt be similar to what Mike proposed playing in the above post.