The status of CS

[Fred The Ev]

In a few days we are going to see an enormous change in the state of vintage. many things are being discussed on this forum but there is one topic that I think should be discussed more. Control Slaver. I just have a few questions for discussion.

Will it stick around? Will it be able to remain a top-tier deck?
What new hate cards should be looked at for Flash and GAT?
Should it incorporate Street Wraith?

Anything else pertaining to CS is welcome here! Discuss!

[The Demon]

In a few days we are going to see an enormous change in the state of vintage. many things are being discussed on this forum but there is one topic that I think should be discussed more. Control Slaver. I just have a few questions for discussion.

Will it stick around? Will it be able to remain a top-tier deck?
What new hate cards should be looked at for Flash and GAT?
Should it incorporate Street Wraith?

Anything else pertaining to CS is welcome here! Discuss!

As far as it sticking around, I would probably guess no simply because I don't think to many people will want to play it.  If you are going to be playing something that is not Ichorid, or Flash, or Long you probably want to be playing Bomberman or GAT.  I highly doubt that slaver could remain a top tier deck as of this moment, but once the metagame shifts again you never know.

As far as hate cards for GAT I would say that perhaps Diabolic Edit could be some goodness?  GAT wins with beat downs but it has a limited number of kill cards so resolving a DE could hamper them for a few turns.

I dont think that Slaver wants to lose life with Ichorid and GAT around

[MoxMonkey]

In a few days we are going to see an enormous change in the state of vintage. many things are being discussed on this forum but there is one topic that I think should be discussed more. Control Slaver. I just have a few questions for discussion.

Will it stick around? Will it be able to remain a top-tier deck?
What new hate cards should be looked at for Flash and GAT?
Should it incorporate Street Wraith?

Anything else pertaining to CS is welcome here! Discuss!

It will stick around but most likely as a Tier 2 deck, doing good once in a while.

REB?  I'm not sure what is good against them.  Might want to include hate against Bomberman in here too.

Street Wraith does not belong in CS, Losing life doesn't help and Most list Do not play Vampiric tutor to take advantage of it.

[zeus-online]

It's probably a bit too slow...but if i where to make a version i'd include either Duress, mana leak or REB MD...REB is pretty good against flash and GAT...duress is great all-over, and land, mox with leak up is pretty decent as well....

Aside from that i'd definetly include duplicant, since ETW is less played now, and the greatest creature based concern is dryads.
2 T. Crypt might also be warranted as it doubles as hate against both ichorid and flash.

..That said I wouldn't play it right now.

/Zeus

[Fred The Ev]

The thing about Slaver is it has usually 3-5 slots to hate out the rest of the format.  While Slaver may be a bit to slow, I think that perhaps with the addition of 2-3 merchant scroll, and also a strip mine+crucuible combination (I know Rich Shay said it was too slow, but that really hasn't been my experience) it can attain enough countermagic to catch up with all the insanely speedy decks out there right now.  I am running 2 Merchant Scroll in my current build, and I went 2-0 in my last match vs. Flash. It is also the only Mana Drain deck in the format right now, (with the exception of Bomberman, which isn't really a true Mana Drain deck) so I think that it definitely has a niche.

[Implacable]

Can Control Slaver still be a viable archetype after 6/20?  Certainly.  Will it have to adapt?  Yes indeed.  Zeus's suggestions for early disruption to add are a good start.  Of his three, I'd pick maindeck REBs, which are potent in a metagame that, with the exception of Ichorid, is 100% Blue.    Furthermore, while I am a huge fan of the Night's Whisper version of Slaver that Team Reflection piloted, I think that a Merchant Scroll-based version while have more viability in the current metagame.  Here's a sample version of what I think is a good CS list for the modern metagame:

2 Goblin Welder
1 Sundering Titan

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
3 Merchant Scroll
3 Thirst for Knowledge
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Mindslaver
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blsat
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will

4 Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy

Sideboard:

4 Leyline of the Void
3 Flametongue Kavu
2 Nix
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Goblin Welder
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
[2 Open Slots]

[Fred The Ev]

Can Control Slaver still be a viable archetype after 6/20?  Certainly.  Will it have to adapt?  Yes indeed.  Zeus's suggestions for early disruption to add are a good start.  Of his three, I'd pick maindeck REBs, which are potent in a metagame that, with the exception of Ichorid, is 100% Blue.    Furthermore, while I am a huge fan of the Night's Whisper version of Slaver that Team Reflection piloted, I think that a Merchant Scroll-based version while have more viability in the current metagame.  Here's a sample version of what I think is a good CS list for the modern metagame:

2 Goblin Welder
1 Sundering Titan

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
3 Merchant Scroll
3 Thirst for Knowledge
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Mindslaver
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blsat
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will

4 Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy

Sideboard:

4 Leyline of the Void
3 Flametongue Kavu
2 Nix
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Goblin Welder
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
[2 Open Slots]

A very interesting build.... I have found however, that as much as lots of merchant scroll is very good, Control Slaver is and always will be a TFK-based deck. Having 4 TFK allows you to chain draws together so much easier than a merchant scroll. I wouldn't play a CS deck with less than 4 TFK (unless it was Dry Slaver, but that is different). That said, with the enormous amounts of speed currently in the format, a 4 TFK, 3 Merchant Scroll engine may be warranted, forgoeing probably Fact or Fiction for the 3rd Scroll. Also, why no Crucible maindeck?

Another thing I would like to bring up is a sideboard removal card. Currently I have 2 FTKs in my sideboard, but with the addition of GAT (and those crazy Dryads) to our format, I think that FTK becomes a much weaker choice, with its inability to kill dryads after they get to 5 toughness. I am thinking alon the lines of threads of disloyalty, but that option is not extremely strong against fish, and it cant hit psychatog.... Any suggestions?

[aosquirrels]

As a former CS player I found Duplicants to be quite effective in the aggro match-up.  Maybe your FTK's could be Duplicants instead.

[Kowal]

Running Merchant Scroll doesn't actually improve your deck against the field.  I'd rather have Night's Whisper against most decks because I want the cards in my hand NOW.  Furthermore, unless you're going in there for Truth or Thirst or something similarly silly, you're getting a targeted draw spell in a field of people running Gush (and therefore Misdirection) or Sphere of Resistance (and therefore Chalice 1).  In addition, you're replacing a draw spell with a tutor in a room full of Mindcensors.

The days of Scroll for Force of Will being a good play are long over.  Night's Whisper may not be the best call, but I certainly can't come up with anything that fits the bill better.

[Hell of a Hat]

As a former CS player I found Duplicants to be quite effective in the aggro match-up.  Maybe your FTK's could be Duplicants instead.

Does Duplicant copy get the counters copied off an opposing dryad?  If not it seems a rather expensive form of removal for the cost (although the ability to cut off any Regrowth/ Yawg's Will shennanigans is a small bonus).  Maybe Cruel Edict would be a good sideboard card? (don't want to see MidD's on Diabolic or Chainer's)

As far as Merchant Scroll goes, It seems like it is huge in decks like GaT and the various Tendrils decks as it pumps the Dryad or storm count AND grabs a bomb.  In CS you don't have either of those things to grow and the only great card to tutor to grab is Ancestral, the other possible targets seem rather subpar to put tutor mana and tempo into.

[Akuma]

Does Duplicant copy get the counters copied off an opposing dryad?

No, it does not. You get a 1/1.

[Fred The Ev]

I rather like the play, Merchant Scroll for TFK, which I noticed has not been much discussed on this forum. TFK is the best way to get fat artifacts out of your hand, and having merchant scroll reduces the odds that any artifact will be sitting around in there for long.
Kowal, while I greatly respect the Night's Whisper engine, I tested it and it was just not for me. I also disagree that Merchant scroll for Force of Will is a bad play. In many circumstances, it can be exactly what you need to last just long enough to win the game.

[Vegeta2711]

I tested it and it was just not for me.

What does this even mean? Posting something like this is akin to saying you have friends on myspace, it means nothing in the real world. Was it too inefficient (pretty sure it's not since NW is 1B), too hard on the mana base (certainly possible if we use the old school, lol look mom I run like 3 black sources including lotus, lawlawlawlwlalawl') or because it was just worse than something else? I mean if there's some draw spell better than NW, please share.

Also Merchant Scroll -> FoW is a pretty awful play, sure you'll do it if you'd die otherwise, but why would you ever willingly throw away a search card to find a reactive card that's going to cost you significant resources down the road to even use?

[Fred The Ev]

I tested it and it was just not for me.

What does this even mean? Posting something like this is akin to saying you have friends on myspace, it means nothing in the real world. Was it too inefficient (pretty sure it's not since NW is 1B), too hard on the mana base (certainly possible if we use the old school, lol look mom I run like 3 black sources including lotus, lawlawlawlwlalawl') or because it was just worse than something else? I mean if there's some draw spell better than NW, please share.

Also Merchant Scroll -> FoW is a pretty awful play, sure you'll do it if you'd die otherwise, but why would you ever willingly throw away a search card to find a reactive card that's going to cost you significant resources down the road to even use?

Haha sorry about the lack of specificity there. I think my main problem with it was the tax on the mana base, and it really just didnt feel worth going to all that trouble, making the mana base much more vulnerable, when you could play hate and merchant scroll in its place. I'm really sorry I said that because
a) I don't want this to turn into a massive argument about whether Merchant Scroll or Night's Whisper should be run. And
b) My problems with Night's Whisper are probably not universal. I expect that my problems with it were because of my metagame (and lets please not discuss my metagame either) and playstyle, and not because, it, like, sucks ballz.


Okay, I'll get back on topic. Vegeta, I think you hit the head right on the nail with the 'don't use it unless you're going to die otherwise.' It is quite true that that is about the only time you would go for it. But still, I think that against all this new combo stuff coming into the format, it is going to become more and more important to be able to hold out for, an extra turn or so, allowing you time to set up your mindslaver, or play yawgwill, or whatever you need to do to win the game. Of 

[zeus-online]

Night's whisper was pretty good last i tested it....And as much as i like Merchant scrolls in other decks, i just don't like it in CS...Has anyone tried impulse? Impulse allows to you keep mana open for REB's or mana leaks on the first turn...or just dig for FoW in a tight spot.

/Zeus

[MoxMonkey]

If I was going to play CS it would have to look something like this

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
3/2 Duress
1/2 Tormod's Crypt
- 12

3 Goblin Welder
1 Mindslaver
1 Sundering Titan
1 Duplicant
- 6

4 Brainstorm
4 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Nights Whisper
1 Ancestral Recall
- 12

1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Tinker
- 5

1 Echoing Truth
- 1

24 Mana sources

I'm not sure on the number of Duress and T Crypts mainboard

I tested Mana Leaks a while ago and I'm pretty sure they were alright but they weren't amazing.  Leaks could go over Duress's in my list without a big problem I think.

To me Black is more important / better than Red since it allows for cheaper draw to stay in the early game and for better disruption(across the field) in the form of Duress(vs REB).  Also you get to board Yixlid Jailer for Ichorid.

[senpai]

i highly disagree with the titan in the maindeck. with gush to save lands and its general uselessness against decks like ichorid and stax, it is simply not as good as it used to be. not to say it is bad, but even the decks it is good against (like flash and maybe storm) it comes out to slow to matter. it should be moved to the sideboard and replaced with a trike or a pentavus.

also, singleton gifts? it seems like a good choice, but a card easily boarded out.

otherwise, the list looks good.

[zeus-online]

You can always duress before you tinker or weld the titan, if it resolves and GAT has no gush they've probably just lost.
I think i would go with 2 REB/2 T. crypt instead of the duress/crypt package though.

/Zeus

[The Demon]

It is my opinion that for CS to even be competitive it would have to run at least two stifles/trickbind.  The format is far to fast, for the first time in a long time people (albeit some stupid ones who don't understand the format) are right when they call it a two turn format.  CS always did well after it survived the initial onslaught that the opposing player dished out, right now stifle/bind stops ichorid from using Ghoul, hopefully stops flame kin zealots come into play ability (to be fair it is very possible for a dread return remix) but you get the point.  The stifle/trickbind  stops Rectors ability, and it stops the hulks ability too.  No matter what else is in the deck, it needs at least two and I would argue three of either trickbind/stifle.....oh yeah Tormod's Crypts wouldn't hurt either.

[Kowal]

Stifle and Trickbind are pretty horrible.  Ichorid will just keep animating guys, so it's actually 100% irrelevant against them.  Even if they didn't just ignore it, they are going to Therapy you several times before killing you.

The Rector version of flash is also likely to ignore you, given it runs a lot of hand disruption and is actually MORE likely to have a Duress effect ahead of time than the long variants are.

Given that only leaves Hulk Flash, I think your argument for running it is kind of flimsy, to say the least.  Hulk Flash is not a popular archetype, and you'd be much better off running a Red Elemental Blast or a Disrupt against it anyway.

[Implacable]

I see zero reason to run a Stifle effect in Control Slaver.  The deck only runs amazing cards (i.e. Tormod's Crypt) in its utility slots.

[The Demon]

Stifle and Trickbind are pretty horrible.  Ichorid will just keep animating guys, so it's actually 100% irrelevant against them.  Even if they didn't just ignore it, they are going to Therapy you several times before killing you.

The Rector version of flash is also likely to ignore you, given it runs a lot of hand disruption and is actually MORE likely to have a Duress effect ahead of time than the long variants are.

Given that only leaves Hulk Flash, I think your argument for running it is kind of flimsy, to say the least.  Hulk Flash is not a popular archetype, and you'd be much better off running a Red Elemental Blast or a Disrupt against it anyway.

I understand that the stifle effects are not the most attractive things to run in CS, but I fail to see any better option.  Yeah, Ichorid will keep animating guys, but that at least would give you a maybe a turn against them which is better then straight up death.  The Rector version of flash may have duress ahead of time, but any other that you would have to stop it would be vulnerable to that same affect correct?

And your last point may have gone straight over my head, but how is a REB or disrupt better?  Disrupt lets them have a chance to actually pay the one, and REB is a solid argument but stifle is more on color with it being blue anyway.  That and the fact that you could occasionally mana screw them with stifle makes it a superior choice to me.

[Implacable]

I understand that the stifle effects are not the most attractive things to run in CS, but I fail to see any better option.  Yeah, Ichorid will keep animating guys, but that at least would give you a maybe a turn against them which is better then straight up death.

...  And you will still lose.  Hate against Ichorid must win you the game, not stall out the inevitable.

[NicolaeAlmighty]

I fail to see how people can say CS is losing its power/ speed/ whatev in a format where Bomberman is a top tier deck. Honestly, Bman is so slow! They resolve 3-4cc sorceries in order to win and revolve around the graveyard. They play a surprisingly clunky deck that in all honesty, if the combo is removed- is a bad fish deck.

Despite what it seems like, the format is deceptively slow. The Mean Deck preached about turn 3 protected wins. Turn 3?! Grow doesn't really win until usually turn 3-4... and thats if opponents don't do a thing. Flash is much too clunky and vulnerable to hate. What else is there? What is is truly fast enough to rule Slaver out?

I realize, not many have actually ruled Slaver out completely, but I've heard it plenty. They say Mana Drain is dead after Gifts got hit... And with it went Slaver... Yet... We have Bman making multiple top 8s?

Slaver is a good deck... It just needs a competent pilot. I'm sure Demars/ whoever will pick Slaver back up, tweak it, and continue doing well.

[Spacebalzz]

Since we're talking about the continued viability of Control Slaver in today's metagame, I think it might be useful to direct some attention to Mickael Lellouche's build he used to win the "Coup de France" on the 24th.  There's no report or anything, but it is probably the most successful Slaver build I've seen on Morphling in a while.  A fluke?  I don't know.

For reference, you can find the list here:

http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=602

Cheers.

-Matt

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

Mickael said he was really lucky all day (he definitly was against me) but the deck is definitly very strong and has what I personally find really important in it - MD Duress and M.Scroll (even though I'd want to run a Gifts in the D.A slot and cut the deck down to 60 cards, probably cutting crypt once Ichorid has died down somewhat. He said he added it only because it ameliorated his MD matchup there from 20% to 50%).

For those that can read french, you can find a tournament report here: http://solomoxen.com/forum/index.php?topic=4062.15
His nick is rock-lee, you can find the report on the second page of the thread.

/edit: I tested the slightly modified version of his list against GAT today, and it is really really strong, going pretty much even with GAT (maybe very slightly in GATs favor). Imo this list is definitly the direction Slaver should take in the future.

[The Demon]

I understand that the stifle effects are not the most attractive things to run in CS, but I fail to see any better option.  Yeah, Ichorid will keep animating guys, but that at least would give you a maybe a turn against them which is better then straight up death.

...  And you will still lose.  Hate against Ichorid must win you the game, not stall out the inevitable.

Yes, I get that, but I still would like to hear about a better option then the stifle effect, especially since it is relatively strong against other arch types and at least somewhat useful in that situation.  Not to be rude, but living longer to actually have the ability to do something to win is better then flat out dieing.  A stifle effect is good against any type of flash deck period.  I am not saying that CS is a good deck atm, or even viable but a CS deck with MD stifle effects seems better then a CS deck without them MD right now from where I am sitting.

[Kowal]

Tormod's Crypt is better against the field.  And seeing as most flash players seem to want to play the KikiJiki kill, you can force them to remove the Crypt or you disrupt their win condition and they fail to win.  Further, Crypt will generate WAY more time than Stifle ever will against Ichorid.  Under optimal conditions, Stifle buys a single turn.  Crypt will buy several, and it's weldable, thirstable, and cheaper.

[The Demon]

Tormod's Crypt is better against the field.  And seeing as most flash players seem to want to play the KikiJiki kill, you can force them to remove the Crypt or you disrupt their win condition and they fail to win.  Further, Crypt will generate WAY more time than Stifle ever will against Ichorid.  Under optimal conditions, Stifle buys a single turn.  Crypt will buy several, and it's weldable, thirstable, and cheaper.

I see your point, however I suppose it would matter as to what build you where going for.  However here is a list from Rich Shay's Dry Slaver list with linkhttp://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=31627.0 I think this list (or something along those lines) may be playable.  Obviously two out of the three Gifts would have to go, but adding in two stifle effects would have to be strong here in my opinion.  No matter what kill they use, stifle works well there.  Yes, Crypt may be better against the field, but either stifle effect stops them from winning as well.  The fact that it gives you a turn or so against ichorid is just a bonus.  They way I see it having two ways to stop your opponent cold is really good, especially when one can be pitched to FoW and can occasionally mana screw the opponent.  As far as the Kiki Jiki kill goes, most of the flash decks that I have played against on MWS (yeah, it sucks to not have a playtest group) have been either the sliver or rector kill.
     Control Package (12):
    4 Force of Will
    4 Mana Drain
    1 Red Elemental Blast
    2 Tormod's Crypt
    1 Echoing Truth

Draw and Search (15):
    4 Brainstorm
    1 Ancestral Recall
    3 Gifts Ungiven
    1 Thirst for Knowledge
    2 Merchant Scroll
    1 Mystical Tutor
    1 Vampiric Tutor
    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Recoup

Design Mistakes (3):
    1 Time Walk
    1 Tinker
    1 Yawgmoth's Will

Control Slaver Engine (5):
    2 Goblin Welder
    1 Sundering Titan
    1 Triskelion
    1 Mindslaver

Sideboard (15):
   1 Red Elemental Blast
   3 Empty the Warrens
   1 Tendrils of Agony
   1 Hurkyl's Recall   
   2 Lava Dart   
   4 Leyline of the Void
   1 Shattering Spree
   2 Trickbind

[Roxas]

Depending on what you want out of the slot, either Tormod's Crypt or Red Elemental Blast will almost always be better than Stifle for trying to survive early on. REB is just as good against Flash if you build your mana base properly, and unlike Stifle it isn't nearly worthless against other decks in the format. REB can help you stop the opponent's draw engine, win counter wars, or destroy annoying permanents like Dimir Cutpurse and Meddling Mage. Stifle usually sits in your hand until you find some mediocre use for it like pitch to Force or counter a fetchland.

Tormod's Crypt is an even better than REB though. It's infinitely better than Stifle because you can get it onto the table for free, where it isn't going to just be taken away by a Duress or countered by Pact of Negation. It's also an artifact, and it should be pretty obvious that a cheap artifact with practical applications against almost every deck in the format is a better use of deck slots than a situational instant.

Go ahead and play Stifle. I'll cast Yawgmoth's Will.