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Author Topic: Force Spikes  (Read 3582 times)
desolutionist
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« on: June 20, 2007, 11:15:09 am »

Before Roanoke, the general consensus was that Ichorid and Hulk will see a lot of tournament play this summer unless some major component of each deck is restricted.  At this weekend's event, I counted 2 Hulk decks and 10 Ichorid decks (about 20% of the field).  This is about the same representation that Control Gifts had near the end of 2006 and Waterbury.  The difference is that instead of slow Fish decks emerging to balance the metagame, we're getting fast combo decks.  All of this could potentially be bad for Vintage by putting it into a state that every critic say it is already in: infested with first and second turn kill decks.

The simultaneous arrival of two “handle-me-or-lose” decks is certainly enough to distort the metagame, but not beyond recovery. Back in 2002, a deck named Dragon posted similarly (relative to the metagame) powerful results. The deck was being used by almost everyone playing in competitive tournaments and didn’t actually begin to diminish until people realized how to combat the deck effectively. More and more fish decks started to show up and crush Dragon with Stifles, Swords to Plowshares, Tormod’s Crypts, and bounce spells and pushed the deck toward becoming a minority.

Hulk and Ichorid seem like decks with a lot of inherent inconsistency problems that will eventually be exploited and even though they are fairly resilient to their current respected hosers, will be at the mercy of some card. Ichorid and, to a lesser degree, Hulk still have that problem of trading skill for percentage, making a long tournament a rumble pit against fatigue; with Ichorid there is no way to exploit skill differences and you can potentially lose games to bad players. Nonetheless, Hulk and Ichorid are decks that no one wants to play against so the logical thing to do is prepare for them.

For right now, if your deck isn’t maining Force of Wills or Leyline of the Voids, your reason for not doing so probably isn’t good enough. These decks, including the decks are being played because of Ichoird and Flash, are consistently goldfishing by turn two; you need to be able to prevent what they could have from winning the game so you can initiate your strategy.  Echoing Josh Silvestri, turn one Mana Drain isn’t reliable enough to stop “fast combo” on it’s own. It can’t be the only counterspell in addition to Force of Will (in mid-range decks) because it is too slow. Disrupt and Daze are one mana alternatives that are already gaining popularity.

My friend, Dan Herd, played two or three Disrupts in Bomberman and missed 9th by a close Bomberman round 6 mirror match against JR Goldman.  I saw his Twister slip away when Dan overvalued an Ancestral Recall (a common mistake).  But nonetheless, he said that Disrupt was amazing all day.  It was unexpected and effective, which propelled the unpracticed Dan into a position, where if he didn't make a mistake, would have been 4-1-1.

Disrupt in decks that aren't tapping out within their first few turns and Daze in decks that are tapping out within their first few turns can give slow, non-mana denial decks like Slaver or Intuition AK the tools to survive until the late game, where they're more comfortable to play naturally.  Can these quick, "one-shot" counterspells rebalance the format?
« Last Edit: June 20, 2007, 11:19:36 am by desolutionist » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2007, 01:14:24 pm »

Was honestly thinking more along the lines of Duress, Chalice, REB and most importantly Tormod's crypt...Crypt buys time against ichorid, and its a 0 mana answer to flash - Although i do know that they can just tutor for an answer...that takes time, and buying time is the purpose.

REB works against both flash and gush-based decks, while Force spike effects are not all that good against gush.

/Zeus
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« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2007, 02:48:56 pm »

Quote
Disrupt in decks that aren't tapping out within their first few turns and Daze in decks that are tapping out within their first few turns can give slow, non-mana denial decks like Slaver or Intuition AK the tools to survive until the late game, where they're more comfortable to play naturally.  Can these quick, "one-shot" counterspells rebalance the format?

I've been using Daze for quite a while and it's really good right now.  I know the UBW fish that got 2nd at SCG last weekend used them and stifle took the one blue instant spot.  Daze is best in a deck with pressure because you want to fire it out with a threat already on board.  It's not uncommon for me to daze brainstorms, and I will almost every time if a fetch is out.

Disrupt seems better in a deck that isn't tapping out early, as you mentioned.  Bomberman seems like the most obvious candidate and I know people have been trying it out in that deck for quite some time.  The problem is that in bomberman, the later game you go the worse disrupt becomes because bomberman has no mana denial.  Because of that, if people know about disrupt it will do virtually nothing more often than not. 

If you run disrupt in a deck with mana denial, it becomes much more dangerous in the same way that daze is.  I've considered disrupt in a UBW fish deck over stifle because that type of deck has pressure, mana denial, and other fast counters.

Still, even with all those components it's tough for fast counterspells to compete with sheer broken.  Ichorid in particular is still an uphill battle and disrupts/dazes do little there.

I think overall one shot counterspells can help in the battle against broken, but they certainly won't rebalance anything.

- Dave Feinstein
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« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2007, 05:18:07 pm »

I've been using Daze for quite a while and it's really good right now.  I know the UBW fish that got 2nd at SCG last weekend used them and stifle took the one blue instant spot.  Daze is best in a deck with pressure because you want to fire it out with a threat already on board.  It's not uncommon for me to daze brainstorms, and I will almost every time if a fetch is out.

I find it difficult to imagine many scenarios when casting Daze into a fetchland is a good idea....
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« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2007, 05:21:47 pm »

I've been using Daze for quite a while and it's really good right now.  I know the UBW fish that got 2nd at SCG last weekend used them and stifle took the one blue instant spot.  Daze is best in a deck with pressure because you want to fire it out with a threat already on board.  It's not uncommon for me to daze brainstorms, and I will almost every time if a fetch is out.

I find it difficult to imagine many scenarios when casting Daze into a fetchland is a good idea....

I assume the rationale is that, without fetches, Brainstorm is just a nice cantrip.  However, I disagree with this logic, because it means that you are trading some of their spell's functionality for one of your cards.  In other words, your neutralization of a fraction of their card with one full card is a bad deal.
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« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2007, 05:27:39 pm »

As long as the meta is combo-control centric,
Disrupt is the insanity when no one sees it coming.
Mana denial is just icing on the cake,
and Daze has mad synergy with Disrupt as well.

It's so good against first turn Brainstorm;
right from the get go, you have a major tempo swing!
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« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2007, 08:46:58 pm »

Does anybody know where I can find a list of this UBW fish deck that got 2nd at SCG last weekend?
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« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2007, 08:56:09 am »

Does anybody know where I can find a list of this UBW fish deck that got 2nd at SCG last weekend?

Normaly SCG posts the Decklists by themself on http://www.starcitygames.com/ Smile
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« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2007, 04:49:47 am »

The main weakness that I see with 'force spike' effects in Vintage is that with all of the Moxes it is extremely difficult to determine just how useful they will be.  In other formats like Legacy or Extended the mana curve is much more rigidly defined over the course of the game.  However, in Vintage a player can open up with three, four, or five mana on the first turn which can often turn a Daze or Disrupt into a completely dead card. 

However, the one card that always peaks my attention is Divert.  It just screams play me.  And, unlike Daze or Disrupt having to pay 2 gets around an opponent's random untapped and unused off color Mox that is just sitting there being useless and wrecking all of your best laid plans.  Obviously, Divert is a card better suited for a combo or combo control deck... Whereas I see cards like Daze or Disrupt finding a nice niche in decks that have some sort of a Mana Denial element.  For instance, decks that pack Null Rod or Chalice of the Void and still play a high number of blue cards, and Pitch Counterspells.   Daze and Disrupt definately get stronger when you condense the game and are able to bottleneck an opponent's Mana.  I would be wary to play them in a Bomberman style control deck, but would be curious about playing them in a more agressive/disruptive UWB fish style deck that can apply early pressure and force an opponent to play their spells while they are low on Mana.
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« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2007, 11:48:54 pm »

The main weakness that I see with 'force spike' effects in Vintage is that with all of the Moxes it is extremely difficult to determine just how useful they will be.  In other formats like Legacy or Extended the mana curve is much more rigidly defined over the course of the game.  However, in Vintage a player can open up with three, four, or five mana on the first turn which can often turn a Daze or Disrupt into a completely dead card. 

However, the one card that always peaks my attention is Divert.  It just screams play me.  And, unlike Daze or Disrupt having to pay 2 gets around an opponent's random untapped and unused off color Mox that is just sitting there being useless and wrecking all of your best laid plans.  Obviously, Divert is a card better suited for a combo or combo control deck... Whereas I see cards like Daze or Disrupt finding a nice niche in decks that have some sort of a Mana Denial element.  For instance, decks that pack Null Rod or Chalice of the Void and still play a high number of blue cards, and Pitch Counterspells.   Daze and Disrupt definately get stronger when you condense the game and are able to bottleneck an opponent's Mana.  I would be wary to play them in a Bomberman style control deck, but would be curious about playing them in a more agressive/disruptive UWB fish style deck that can apply early pressure and force an opponent to play their spells while they are low on Mana.

Divert seems pretty bad against Flash, which is where Force Spike effects would be at their best. Honestly, I feel awful holding a Misdirection against Flash when it could have been a Disrupt. I think I wold rather not play at all than show up packing Divert.
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