Uba stax, still viable?

[McBain]

you make a good point, the one thing i really hate about uba stax is that it has a weak aggro finish. Most games i just go for a uba lock though.

One option that i was considering was

-2 factories
+2 urborg tomb

i only cut the factory because there was nothing else i really want to cut, mabye i could do -1 waste and something else.

the tomb is an interesting idea, for one it helps with turning bazaars into mana, shops into real mana ect.
helpful against things like kataki, or flux, you can actually hardcast leyline!!! ect.

thoughts?

[meadbert]

Urborg makes it much easier to hardcast Leyline as well.  I could possibly see putting them in the sideboard to bring in against Flux and to help cast Leylines.

I think they would not be very good in the main deck.  Energy Flux never shows up in game 1 and having enough mana is rarely a problem.

[meadbert]

I have been going through my test gauntlet with Uba Stax and it is performing really well right now.

Typically Uba Stax does better than average against slow decks (Other Stax, SS, Fish), poorly against fairly fast decks (Oath, Ichorid, Gifts, Drain Tendril) and very well against Fast combo (Long, Belcher, Flash).

I have started with the slow decks and am 11-7 right now which is pretty good.

I have been testing the maindeck I posted earlier along with a sideboard of:
4 Keg
4 Cap
4 Leyline
2 Words of War
1 Karn

The second Karn should have been in the main deck.  I board it in whenever I am not facing Welder and it randomly wins so many games.
Jester's Cap has not done much yet because I do not bring it in versus Fish but the one time I did bring it in it was solid.
I have barely used Leyline.  One major problem I have with Leyline is that it means that Welder no longer answers an early DSC.  There is still the Chalice defense and using Smokey to race but I really hate losing to DSC when I have a Welder out.  I will see how Ichorid and Flash turns out later to determine if Leyline is right or if I should just put Crypts back in.

Powder Keg has been amazing so far.  He tears up Fish and answers Pithing Needle.  I am almost always glad to draw him.

Words of War is amazing if you board out Resistor. The two just do not go well together because once you drop Resistor it becomes very difficult to get Words mana up.  The good news is that the decks that you want Words of War against (Fish) are also good decks to board out Resistor.  Those decks where you want Resistor most (Long) are the decks where you would not board in Words of War.

Even without Bazaar Words is a wrecking ball versus Fish.  It has torn them up time and time again.

Versus Fish I mulliganed into 2xSerum Powder, Shop, Mountain, Factory, Words of War.  Without really evaluating I just about Serum Powder mulliganed before realizing that I had a turn 2 Words of War and turn 3 Factory.  Being able to use Shop to play two Powders and then use both Powders and Mountain to play turn 2 Words of War was strong.

Words of War is also solid against Slaver where it removes opposing Welders.  It also replaces Uba Mask as a way to make Bazaar of Baghdad broken.  Note that I use Words of War as removal.  Do not skip your draws just to do 2 damage to your oppoent.
Activating Bazaar on upkeep with an empty hand to do 4 damage to your opponent is fine, but you should not be skipping draws unless it is to remove annoying creatures.

Note that Words of War is able to handle Jotun Grunt, Auriok Salvager and mid sized Kudzus/Dryads.

One issue I have noticed is that opposing Leylines are fairly annoying.  I have started boarding down to two Crucibles when I expect Leyline because they are useless against it.  Welders also become close to dead while Bazaar is weakened.  I do not board out Bazaars because I generally want the draws.  Powder Keg can remove Leyline, but it takes forever.  I still win plenty of games against Leyline, but it is a solid card to bring in against Uba Stax.

[Tiki Walker]

I have been going through my test gauntlet with Uba Stax and it is performing really well right now.

Powder Keg has been amazing so far.  He tears up Fish and answers Pithing Needle.  I am almost always glad to draw him

Hello there, meadbert!

Glad you found encouraging results with your playtest sessions!

On the Keg subject, if your playtest results suggest that they are quite useful, then what about moving some of them into the main deck? Maybe 2 or 3?

Words of War is amazing if you board out Resistor. The two just do not go well together because once you drop Resistor it becomes very difficult to get Words mana up.  The good news is that the decks that you want Words of War against (Fish) are also good decks to board out Resistor.  Those decks where you want Resistor most (Long) are the decks where you would not board in Words of War.

Even without Bazaar Words is a wrecking ball versus Fish.  It has torn them up time and time again.

Versus Fish I mulliganed into 2xSerum Powder, Shop, Mountain, Factory, Words of War.  Without really evaluating I just about Serum Powder mulliganed before realizing that I had a turn 2 Words of War and turn 3 Factory.  Being able to use Shop to play two Powders and then use both Powders and Mountain to play turn 2 Words of War was strong.

Words of War is also solid against Slaver where it removes opposing Welders.  It also replaces Uba Mask as a way to make Bazaar of Baghdad broken.  Note that I use Words of War as removal.  Do not skip your draws just to do 2 damage to your oppoent.
Activating Bazaar on upkeep with an empty hand to do 4 damage to your opponent is fine, but you should not be skipping draws unless it is to remove annoying creatures.

Note that Words of War is able to handle Jotun Grunt, Auriok Salvager and mid sized Kudzus/Dryads.

This is a nice outcome. How is your playtest sessions telling you on this words of war subject. Does your deck produce a consistent enough draw regularly to cast the words of war with its mana requirements? If it does, then this enchantment maybe the long awaited creature control element that prison players are looking for.

Being able to kill grunts, Salvager is good. and with ample mana supply and enough bazaars, we should be able to finish the opponent quickly if the opportunity comes.

One issue I have noticed is that opposing Leylines are fairly annoying.  I have started boarding down to two Crucibles when I expect Leyline because they are useless against it.  Welders also become close to dead while Bazaar is weakened.  I do not board out Bazaars because I generally want the draws.  Powder Keg can remove Leyline, but it takes forever.  I still win plenty of games against Leyline, but it is a solid card to bring in against Uba Stax.

I agree that the leylines are somewhat quite annoying to the Uba prison deck. It tampers with several card interactions important for optimal Uba prison function. Welder of course is quite neutralized by the Leylines. However, I tend to think that Bazaar's function as card drawing machine in Uba prison is still preserved, provided you have access to Uba Mask soon. That maybe can support the idea to preserve full complement of Uba Masks in the deck. As long as we have ample mana, with Uba and Bazaar then we can still draw more than once per turn and cast a lot of the deck's lock components.

That's is also why I tend to opine that most of Uba prison's components should consist of cards that can be cast reasonably. In case that the welder path is unavailable because of opponent's graveyard hate or due to anti welder cards he/she operates, then at least most of the spells in the Uba prison deck can still be cast normally.

One more thing, I would like to point also that Keg is not going to be able to remove Leylines in play. If you would really want to be able to remove the leyline from play, then further effort should be considered. Maybe should splash color for a bit of white or green, although I think that the mana base is going to be more unstable.

The second Karn should have been in the main deck.  I board it in whenever I am not facing Welder and it randomly wins so many games.

Observing games from my friends using MUDs, fast, active Karn in play is quite scary to face, as suddenly lock components can be all animated to block and attack, as well as killing any moxes and chalices present. It changes the timing quite dramatically. I tend to agree that without Null Rods then Karn should be the best addition to the Uba prison. My friends they use 3 Karns for their MUD as MUD tends to lack a bit on card drawing ability. They want to have access to Karn soon. With Uba prison, I'd like to argue that maybe 2 is already correct as they will come sooner with bazaar engine online.

Thank you.

[Eversio]

I think this could have good potential in the current metagame. It is a strong list, but there is one card I was wondering about:

Null Brooch.

It has been discussed here on TMD before, and I think it could work well if it could be fit into the deck. It would give you an answer to Flash, by making them have to find the kill and a way to bounce your brooch, giving you time to get down lock pieces or find another brooch for welder tricks.

Another thought I had would be maindecking Jester's Cap, which Yesuphren used to seem to do well with. An activated cap screws Flash, Tog, Bomberman, Long, etc. The only deck that I can think of that it wouldn't be good against would be fish variants.

Unfortunately this list is really tight, so I'm not sure what could be cut. The only thing that immediately comes to mind is smokestack, but I would hate to cut that. Maybe cut a stax and a mask and you could fit in 2 copies of one of them.

Just some thoughts. I haven't tested yet, but I will do so soon.

[meadbert]

I keep thinking that Keg can blow up Enchantments.  Basically the only way we have to remove Leyline is Smokestack and at that point we have already won.

Cap is great in some matchups but bad in others which is why I do not consider it worth maindecking.  I would hate to draw it against Fish.  That said, you could turn Uba Stax into a form of hate.dec and use Serum Powders to mulligan into your hate.  This only works if you know what deck your opponent is playing so it is perhaps a strategy best left to the board.

I could see adding Kegs to the main deck.  Since Needles are not showing up in the main deck and Warrens is on the downswing it would not be as strong pre board as it is post board but blowing up all of an opponent's moxes can be nice.

Karn is so ridiculously good.  The fact that Mana Drain seems to have fallen out of favor makes him even better.

Null Brooch is also good but he is a bit slow to get going.  When I tested it my opponent kept baiting me with counterspells.  He would play EOT Gifts or EOT Ancestral which I would counter and then I would get hit with Rebuild or Hurkles.

Null Brooch does act as a lock with Uba Mask.

[madmanmike25]

I keep thinking that Keg can blow up Enchantments. 

God, that would be sweet.

Cap is great in some matchups but bad in others which is why I do not consider it worth maindecking.  I would hate to draw it against Fish. 

It really isn't that bad against Fish.  Taking out 3 artifact-hate cards can be nice, not to mention that you can pretty much guess whats in their hand after going through their deck.  It isn't horrible, just probably not optimal.


Call me old fashioned, but I still think Null Rod is better than Karn in the maindeck.  I'm not completely sold on Serum Powders just yet.  I would still play with Null Rod main even with Powders, because drawing into one mid/late game is useless.  Who cares if i shut down my own 1 for 3 mana source late game??

If I want to eat moxen/chalices, I have a 1cc red creature.  He also can eat 1cc artifacts fairly easy where Karn just turns them into 1/1's.

If you want a deck where Karn really shines, try MUD.  I'm not sure a lockdown deck should be aggro orientated(pre SB) at the cost of a great lockdown card: Null Rod.

[Pitlord]

I think a big part of the reason Null Rod has fallen out of favor in prison lately is because against most of the top decks, it really isn't all that good. Take a look at some of the decks that are doing the best right now and how bad Null Rod is against a lot of them...
Flash - Plays only on color moxen and lotus
GAT - Plays petal, Lotus, And probably 4/5 moxen/crypt.
Ichorid - LED? Maybe?
Fish - Most lists play only on color moxen and lotus, the exception being URBana
Bomberman & Stax -  These are really the only matches where Null Rod is exceptionally good, and you have a lot of hate already for these two decks.
Shutting off more cards in your deck than in the opponents is pretty bad, and coutner-productive to your gameplan.

As for playing Karn in the main, he is somewhat of a win-more card, but he is also a win-now card, which can be a somewhat big problem playing Uba Stax. An opponent can be locked pretty tight, and still manage to get the resources to rebuild or Hurkyls eventually because we cannot kill them in a reasonable amount of turns. Karn solves that problem, forcing them to find their answer now, instead of letting them capitalize on our very slow clock.

[meadbert]

Karn has not been a win more card at all.  He has been a just plain win card for me.

Uba Stax has started to flat out dominate in testing.  The metagame has really shifted in its favor.  I cannot stress how much I would rather face GAT than Gifts or Slaver.

I have not gotten to Ichorid or Flash yet so I have been unable to evaluate Leyline.  GAT never felt close.  The one game I almost lost was to turn 1 Dryad, but FActory slowed him down and Keg removed him.

[LKG]

@meadbert:  You seem to be very sucessful in your testing, which is great.  I also think that this version of Uba could dominate the meta.

I am running a different sideboard (with ensnaring bridge), but yours seems to be doing well for you.  I was wondering if you could give some insight into the different sideboarding strategies you have using your sideboard to better show the strengths yours has opposed to a different board.

[McBain]

i am also experiencing very good results in testing with uba stax.
i absolutely love uba mask, and for is a must. the better you become with the deck, these become golden, every bazaar you wish for one of them to draw.
I went back karn and haven't looked back, he is just flat out amazing. an active welder makes it pretty much game over.
This deck is one giant enormous synergy killing machine.
active welder is the key to the absolute broken plays with this deck though.
COW+mishra factory, infinite dryad blocks, and infinite welder.
I play with:
2 karn
1 mana crypt
3 serum powder
this has been amazing for me, uba stax almost always has a decent opening hand, but im not afraid to mull it, esp if i have opening serum as well as a chance to mull into one.
mana crypt hasn't been a problem for me at all, it allows broken openings, can be taken out from stax, welder and karn.
karn also allows for huge chumping vs dryad if you need to, as well as providing a huge clock for your opponent.
I almost always use the bazaar on my upkeep with no cards in hand, as long as i don't have a good chance of milling my welders out. this fills your grave, allowing for barb rings to get online and huge welder fun when you get him.

Play this deck, it is amazing.

However im still very undecided on the sideboard, kegs i agree are very good. I like 3 trikes in there as well, cuz they pretty much own creature decks/ other welders. 4 ;eylines, i am kinda torn on this... they are soooo good esp with 3 powders maindeck, but they are just bazaar food almost all the time after turn 0. (lotus, or double jet). Jesters caps are pretty amazing, i have a lot of t2 concessions after an active cap. pretty good vs flash or combo.

Cards i would also consider
- tangle wire
- ensaring bridge
- null rod
- the old r/g fastbond/crop rotation 4 taiga, with sideboard ray of revelation?

[madmanmike25]

I think a big part of the reason Null Rod has fallen out of favor in prison lately is because against most of the top decks, it really isn't all that good.

I have to disagree with you here.

Take a look at some of the decks that are doing the best right now and how bad Null Rod is against a lot of them...
Flash - Plays only on color moxen and lotus

Some lists play all the moxen as well as petal.

GAT - Plays petal, Lotus, And probably 4/5 moxen/crypt.

When did GAT stop using Sol Ring?

Ichorid - LED? Maybe?

 
The obviously worst case scenario for Null Rod.  How well has Ichorid been placing?

Fish - Most lists play only on color moxen and lotus, the exception being URBana

Probably the second case where Null Rod should just be Bazaar'ed away.  Besides, I seem to remember not that long ago people were being CHASTISED for only playing with 3 Null Rods in Fish!  "Fish is a 56 card deck built around Null Rod"-well, thats what they said anyway, I still can live with 3.  Do you think so many people are really that incorrect about the potence of this card?

Bomberman & Stax -  These are really the only matches where Null Rod is exceptionally good, and you have a lot of hate already for these two decks.
Shutting off more cards in your deck than in the opponents is pretty bad, and coutner-productive to your gameplan.

You seem to forget that Stax has Mishras Workshop and plenty of other lands for mana,  Null Rod isn't really a 'bomb' against Stax especially when they use the card themselves....


Most of the top tier Vintage decks utilize full artifact acceleration, or very close to it.

And how effective is Karn with Null Rod out? 

Oh, and not to mention that Null Rod OWNS Belcher decks.  Even if they use EtW this card is a ball breaker.  I'm not saying that casting Null Rod wins you the game hands down, but in a prison deck it's a very, very solid card for 2 mana.

[ErkBek]

Madmanmike, clearly you like Rod better in your build, but you're kill post is really unproductive to this thread (I actually find it very counterproductive). I really hate when people do this (threads on my decks tend to turn into a disaster because people do things like this). Bert's entire build is based off not running null rod and all you are trying to do is say why that's all wrong. It's clear you are sold on Rod, don't spam this thread with telling people they are wrong.

Null Rod is a good card we know this, but as Meadbert and Pitlord have clearly stated their veiwpoints on the card only for you look for small holes in their logic (ie: saying some GAT list run Sol Ring or off color moxen). You're missing the big point though, 2sphere hits GAT so much harder than Null Rod. Also, not running Null Rod has made Serum Powder, Karn, and various sideboard cards available.

I don't feel that's its necessary to disect your whole post, but I can't stand how you said Ichorid isn't a big contender, but Null Rod is a bomb vs. Belcher. Ichorid sees at least 3 or 4 times as much play as Belcher.

As for my thoughts on Rod, I think it just isn't strong enough at the moment. Flash's kill hardly needs artifact mana if at all. GAT typically uses about 5 artifact accelerants. Long has a much more difficult time with Sphere + Karn. Rod does nothing vs. ichorid. Rod is good vs. Bomberman. Rod and Sphere can both be very situationally good vs. Fish. Slaver will probably beat you either way if they know what they are doing.

[madmanmike25]

Hmm, first off this isn't Bert's thread(no offense to Bert, I rather enjoy his posts) or really anyones since the original poster kind of abandoned it.  I am not calling any of those decklists 'bad' either. 

Secondly, it is a STAX thread.  Uba Stax is still Stax and Stax is a prison deck, no question.  Null Rod is a card that goes well in prison decks.  My opinion of the card should be obvious by my posting, but I am not trying to talk down to anyone who omits Null Rod.

Third, for you to insinuate that I am trying to 'spam' as opposed to examining all the card options that Uba Stax has is rather insulting.  If you notice, if your post didn't have that last paragraph added, it is much more akin to spam than mine.  Clearly you are letting previous experiences cloud your judgement here.

This post is not about Null Rod, it is just to say that I think my previous posts were relevent.  You can always choose to ignore my posts as I will not be going on and on and on about the Null Rod argument.  I am not on a crusade here.  I don't think people are 'wrong' for not using Null Rod, just as I don't think people are wrong if they choose not to use Sphere of Resistance.  All options should be explored and held for consideration.  If you choose one option over another you need to know if what you are gaining is better than what you are losing by not running certain cards.  Isn't that how decklists should be designed?

I also NEVER said Ichorid isn't a big contender.  Never.  I only asked how well it has placed.  I wasn't trying to insinuate that Ichorid is a bad deck, that would be folly.

[ErkBek]

Here's what I mean

Take a look at some of the decks that are doing the best right now and how bad Null Rod is against a lot of them...
Flash - Plays only on color moxen and lotus

Some lists play all the moxen as well as petal.

When did GAT stop using Sol Ring?

Steve's list plays 4 Moxen, Petal, and Lotus. Shay's list plays 3 moxen and Lotus. No Sol Ring, off color moxes, or mana Crypt in either. Most people are either netdecking these or playing something similar.

Ichorid - LED? Maybe?

 
The obviously worst case scenario for Null Rod.  How well has Ichorid been placing?

Oh, and not to mention that Null Rod OWNS Belcher decks.  Even if they use EtW this card is a ball breaker.  I'm not saying that casting Null Rod wins you the game hands down, but in a prison deck it's a very, very solid card for 2 mana.

You imply that Ichorid shouldn't be worried about, because it's not a contender. Null Rod on the other hand destroys Belcher. Belcher comprises about 2% of the metagame last time I checked.

Fish - Most lists play only on color moxen and lotus, the exception being URBana

Probably the second case where Null Rod should just be Bazaar'ed away.  Besides, I seem to remember not that long ago people were being CHASTISED for only playing with 3 Null Rods in Fish!  "Fish is a 56 card deck built around Null Rod"-well, thats what they said anyway, I still can live with 3.  Do you think so many people are really that incorrect about the potence of this card?

Null Rod fish isn't doing so hot at the moment. Chalice fish and fish decks without Chalice and Rod are seeing the most play at the moment. Also, you're taking things out of context. If people ran 3 Dark Rituals in Long everyone would say you need to run 4 because Long is built around rituals and fast mana. That doesn't mean you should play 4 in prerestriction gifts. I mean, gifts loved drawing mana acceleration.

Bomberman & Stax -  These are really the only matches where Null Rod is exceptionally good, and you have a lot of hate already for these two decks.
Shutting off more cards in your deck than in the opponents is pretty bad, and coutner-productive to your gameplan.

You seem to forget that Stax has Mishras Workshop and plenty of other lands for mana,  Null Rod isn't really a 'bomb' against Stax especially when they use the card themselves....

Okay, so you're saying Rod is bad in this matchup too? So it's marginal to bad vs. the following

Stax
Fish
GAT (runs 4-6 artifacts)
Flash (wins the game for 2 mana and plays 12-13 lands)
Ichorid

Good vs.

Slaver
Bomberman
Belcher

So why exactly should rod be played? Keep running rod if you'd like, it's personal preference I guess.

[madmanmike25]

Every time I try to get out, they keep pulling me back in... jk, I actually like healthy debates and I think that this is very relevent to the future of Stax.

Here's what I mean.....
Steve's list plays 4 Moxen, Petal, and Lotus. Shay's list plays 3 moxen and Lotus. No Sol Ring, off color moxes, or mana Crypt in either. Most people are either netdecking these or playing something similar.

So, thats a total of 2 people?  Vs, everyone else who may or may not be playing with more moxen?  I can't argue for or against this as there is insufficient evidence to do so.  Personally I have never played against a GAT list without Sol Ring.  Your experiences are different from mine.  Nothing we can do about that.

You imply that Ichorid shouldn't be worried about, because it's not a contender. Null Rod on the other hand destroys Belcher. Belcher comprises about 2% of the metagame last time I checked.

No, you are putting words in my mouth.

The obviously worst case scenario for Null Rod.  How well has Ichorid been placing?

That's what I wrote.  When did I say Ichorid shouldn't be worried about?  Ichorid is a horrible matchup for Stax pre-board.  Who would dispute that?  Stax has so many dead cards againsts Ichorid.  Maybe I should have asked 'Is Ichorid that heavily played?'.

Last SCG tournament had 6 Ichorid decks and 3 Belcher decks.  Thats not a global reflection I know, but still.....Ichorid had a grand total of 3 more decks at the tournament.  So your 2% meta calculation is against 4%?? (for Belcher and Ichorid respectively)

Null Rod fish isn't doing so hot at the moment.

I invite you to look at the last SCG results again.  Fish with 3 Null Rods came in 2nd.  That's far from 'not so hot'.  Yep, Gifts got restricted.  I know this.  Does this mean that every deck will be playing with less and less moxen???  Time will tell, and then both of us can draw a solid conclusion.   If decks start only using on-color moxen then you can bet your entire collection that I will drop Null Rod in a heart beat.

Okay, so you're saying Rod is bad in this matchup(STAX) too?

Well, there is a huge difference between 'bad' and 'not optimal'.  But yes, I would say that Rod isn't optimal against Stax.  I have had my Null Rods mana screw opposing Stax decks many times though...But they tend to get SB'ed out for Heretics/Artifact hate.


Also, check out Scroll TPS that won 3rd and 5th at SCG.  Do you think Karn would do better than Null Rod?  5 mana vs. 2 mana.  Actually, make that 6 mana to cast and activate Karn.  This is not an argument about Sphere of Resistance vs Null Rod btw.   You can (and I have) played with both Spheres and Rods in the same deck, not too shabby btw.

I think Null Rod is still good in Vintage and still good in Stax-Prison, and this is the last I will ever post that statement in this thread, or then I would be spamming.  You do not feel that Null Rod is a threat, I understand that now.  If there are better cards in your opinion, then by all means run them.  One of the first cards to consider is Jester's Cap.

[Vegeta2711]

So, thats a total of 2 people?  Vs, everyone else who may or may not be playing with more moxen?

It's two people who make their lists publically visiible and have been known to get netdecked heavily in the past. Trying to downgrade the impact by saying 'oh it's only two guys' does a disservice. It's like when Flores writes about tech in other formats, people will netdeck that shit hard if they think it's any good (And many times even if it's not). Even if they don't completely follow either of their decks, I'd bet that most people would follow and modl their builds closer to either one of those unless they happen to have a strong deckbuilding pedigree and are confident in their own decisions. It's just what people do in the information age now.

[zeus-online]

I'm confused, why would people play with sol ring in GAT?...It does allow some awesome turn 2 plays, but since most people are only playing like 4-5 artifact mana sources i just don't see sol ring making the cut, i'd much rather have a mox pearl or mana crypt then sol ring, and i play neither.

That said, i think stax could do great right know, it seems like basics are out of style (Although people ofcourse haven't forgotten everything....yet) and most tier1 decks do not play maindeck stax hate (The old meta-game was better prepared for stax imo)

/Zeus

[meadbert]

So Uba Stax continues to nearly dominate in testing.  Right now it is 22-8 including both pre and post board games. 
I tested against ICBM Oath.  I used a list I found that one of the Carps had used in Wisconsin.  It had no Basics, but a ton of Uba Stax hate in the sideboard.  The matchup felt even or even advantageous.  ICBM Oath had 4 Creatures post board and it runs Null Rod so Jester's Cap was not that much of a factor.  Instead Powder Keg seemed to make a huge difference.  It combines with Wasteland to shut off Orchard.

I am over half way through the gauntlet which mostly (75%) is from decks that have top eighted on Morphling.de but also contains some random test decks (plagiarize.dec) and some pet decks (turboland).

[Purple Hat]

people are also forgetting one of the reasons the original dueleman MUD lists ran 3x Karn....Karn is a 0/8 wall for dryad/tog to jump over.  That fact alone has lost me games vs stax in testing with gat the last coupple weeks.  Karn's a house in the current meta.  he's literally good vs everything.  Stax that can win or apply serious pressure on turn 3-5 while assembling it's lock is pretty freakin annoying to deal with.

[PhilipJFry]

Meadbert,
How did testing Ensnaring Bridge go for you?  Did it make the cut, or did it prove not worth the space?

Additionally, does running 4 Smokestack seem like too much for a card that works that slowly, or is that proving to be the proper number?

[meadbert]

I will answer the Smokestack question first since that is much easier.  Smokestack is a huge bomb.

I estimate that the median magic game lasts 5 turns for each player.  This means that a turn 1 Smokestack removes a median of 6-10 permanents depending on who went first.  If your opponent has Time Walk it is even worse.

I realize that Smokestack is slow but, you must consider its purpose.  It is not there to prevent opponents from comboing out on turn 1 or 2.  It is there to ensure that you win the long game.  You have Trinisphere, Chalice, Resistor and Serum Powder to make sure you have a relevant turn 1 play against Combo.

Against Control or non Ichorid Aggro a turn 1 Smokestack is the most powerful play you can make.

Ensnaring Bridge is a much tougher question.  It is pure gold in a few matches in game 1. It tears up Ichorid in game 1.  Very few Ichorid players run a solutions in their main deck.  This makes a big difference since you have Serum Powder to help mulligan into it and you almost always lose game one without Ensnaring Bridge.  The weakness in game 1 is that Bridge is close to dead in many matchups.  Although it theoretically stops Flash, Flash typically goes off on turn 2 and by then you are still quite likely to have a card in hand.  Because those slivers are 1/1s they can slip uner Ensnaring Gridge too often.  Against Tendrils combo Ensnaring Bridge is close to dead.  Against Oath it is gold again, but Oath is not heavily played.

Post board Bridge gets a bit worse.  Most Oath and Ichorid decks run Ancient Grudge to remove Ensnaring Bridge.  Most other decks can ignore it.

I would not run Ensnaring Bridge right now, but it is very good in game 1 versus some decks like Ichorid so in the right meta it could definitely deserve a spot.

[LKG]

I would like to add my own 2 cents to on the ensnaring bridge topic.  While initially I thought bridge would be a good way to solve some matchups (ichorid, flash, oath, etc...) I found that in testing it was less than opimal.  In addition to all the reasons meadbert gave, bridge is extremely dissynergetic with Karn and Factory, cutting off 2 of your main win conditions.  The fact that Karn was ineffective I found weakened the deck quite a bit as it made me have to find barbarian ring, bazaar, and resolve a crucible, giving my iopponent ample time to deal with the bridge. 

As for stax, I also find the card to be a bomb, a turn 1-2 stax is game over for many decks.  However I cut the number down to 3 in the maindeck to make room for a second Karn, a change i am satisfied with.  While Stax is very good, Karn is just plain better.  I have yet to lose after resolving him, and he just ends games.  I cut the Stax, instead of another lock piece, because I find it fills almost the same role as Karn in the deck, ending the game.  Sphere, crucible, and other pieces of the deck all have other roles which are vastly different from those played by Karn and Smokestacks, and often times Karn does the Stacks's job faster, killing off 2 or more moxen in one swoop.

What I would like to know, from meadbert, is how you beat bomberman.  In my limited testing the match is very hard preboard because while I can shut off the combo all they need to do is resolve a mindscensor or 2 to quickly eat away my life total before I can find answers.  Post board I put in words of war (which I have upped to 3 in the board after putting a second Karn in the main) but it always seems to be taken out/stalled by drain before I can deal with the mindscensors.

What are everyone's experiences against bomberman?

[meadbert]

Bomberman should have all sorts of trouble comboing out since Chalice@0, Chalice@1 and Sphere of Resistance all shut it off.

The real question is can they win quickly with creature beats.

Auriok Salvagers is somewhat slow to come out.  The bigger threats are Trinket Mage and Aven Mindcensor.

Mindcensor's backup ability does nothing since Uba Stax runs no tutors other than Solem Simulacrum and even he is not run by everyone.  Although Mincensor can fly I find him barely any scarier than Savannah Lion is in Fish.

If you are having trouble against Bomberman then either you have been unlucky or you are really missing your extra Smokestack.

[Tiki Walker]

Hello, there.

Regarding the Mindcensor problem, Uba prison's strategy to deal with it is more or less is similar as if dealing with some aggro control decks in T1 which use some 2/2 and x/1 creatures. Playing with a full set of Barbarian Rings will likely help to stem the problem. Threshold can be achieved quite fast in this deck with Bazaar engine so as to make Barbarian Rings online. To Uba prison, Mindcensor is likely regarded as another 2/1 beater, as the deck does not generally able to tutor up for anything, relying more on the Bazaar-Uba synergy to draw more cards instead.
 
On the Smokestack thing I fully agree with Meadbert's assessment.

On the other note, I would like to ask your opinion, Meadbert; How is your playtest sessions telling you regarding the flow of the new Uba prison (which according to your version does not use Null Rods). In general, do you feel that with the new variant there is greater emphasis on mana access for us on the table? I feel that using a full set of resistors generally give me the impression that:

1. We would like to have access to Workshops and mana accelerators soon and consistently throughout the game. Once the 1st 
resistor is down there, generally I feel the need to add more mana on the table to cast future spells or just to stabilize our
mana supply in case the opponent is able to destroy our mana. Lands like Workshops and Tolarian Academy become greatly
appreciated under resistor's influence. I recalled that with the Old Uba prison (the just Null Rod version), our mana is quite
stabilized already if we can have access to 4 mana. Any extra mana thus can be tossed into graveyard to feed Bazaar engine
or to feed crucible.

2.  With resistors on the table maybe it is safe to assume that we actually need more mana sources on the table; be it from
artifacts or from lands. I would like to opine that this in return also put some emphasis on the mana availability from our
artifacts sources; i.e it is quite important for them to be able to function reliably. How does your playtest sessions doing
and telling you in those cases where you have to deal with Null Rod users? Does the Null Rod issue from the opponent
able to give some stress to the deck's mana stability?

I happened to read a response in the tourney report section that Mr. Razvan Trufasiu who played stax in the tourney
experienced problems with Null Rod from the opponent. His version looks like the 4 color stax variant, and he encountered
problems with resolved Null Rods in some of his matches,including the top 8 match. I imagined that it could be possibly come from early Null Rods from the opponent when he might choose to keep hands with some artifact mana accelerants during the course of the tourney as the primary problem.

All being said I fully agree that the build with resistors is a good approach for current state. With this post I would like to ask other people's experiences on whether with the resistor build some play style on how to develop the board position should be adjusted a bit different than the old build with rods.   

Thank you.

[meadbert]

Generally you mulligan into a hand with at least 3 mana.  Serum Powders are what allow this.  I would say that over 70% of the time I start with Workshop.  In those games where I do not I either have multiple moxes or have a way of dodging mana costs like Welder + Bazaar.  Serum Powders are also mana sources themselves so they can help you play Smokestacks and Uba Masks while you have Resistors out.

Wasteland is a bit scary.  For instance I keep a lot of hands that have Shop and Resistor but maybe only 1 other land as a mana source.  Wasteland could wreck this hand.  The good news is that Wasteland prevelence is at an all time low.
Also if you know your opponent is playing Wasteland then you can usually just lead with Crucible instead.