Meandeck Open: Top 4 - A Brief Report

[Tin_Mox5831]

To set the scene just a bit, it's 5:30 AM on Sunday morning and I'm doing a little laundry while listening to some tunes on my iPod. (Don't worry, mini-playlist to follow the report!) I gotta get that infamous pink polo shirt ready for the big dance that we all know as the Meandeck Open and unfortunately for me, I got a stain on it the last time I rocked it. Oh well, Shout to the rescue! Huzzah! Piss off dirt, you've got nothing on me!  Anyway, I've been testing my Ichorid deck to death, and it just eats GAT's lunch for 'em, not to mention the beating you give Stax, which should show up to combat GAT again. After much debating, folding, and ironing, I decide it's time to bust the deck out again instead of playing a bazillion GAT mirrors.

For the inquiring minds, here's what I played:

Maindeck: (60 Cards)
Bazaar Of Baghdad x 4
Ichorid x 4
Nether Shadow x 4
Narcomoeba x 4
Golgari Grave-Troll x 4
Stinkweed Imp x 4
Golgari Thug x 4
Shambling Shell x 1
Street Wraith x 4
Bridge From Below x 4
Cabal Therapy x 4
Leyline Of The Void x 4
Chalice Of The Void x 4
Serum Powder x 4
Flame-Kin Zealot x 2
Dread Return x 2
Contagion x 3

Sideboard: (15 Cards)
City Of Brass x 3
Gemstone Mine x 3
Chain Of Vapor x 4
Emerald Charm x 2
Oxidize x 2
Darkblast x 1

I get my list done and pay my entry fee. I hang out with Josh and Justin before the tourney and play a few games with may GAT deck with three goals in mind: Helping Josh a bit, getting some GAT practice, and spreading some misinformation to those within earshot. Pretty soon, Mark "Snoop Trogg" Trogdon waltzes through the door and presents me with the Contagions I asked to bum from him, so I'm stoked. After some traditional bullshitting, the parings are up. And away we go!

Round One: Willie with GAT
Preface: Willie is a good guy with an amazing sense of humor. And he's super tall.

Game One: I do the Ichorid thing, he does the GAT thing and I win. Game 1's are a slaughter in this matchup. He did cast Yawgmoth's Will, however.

Game Two: This game was much more interesting, but no Tormod's Crypts and no Yixlid Jailers were involved, which can only mean one thing. He plays it very carefully, however, and after a few turns without a Bazaar (I think it was the victim of a Strip Mine.) my Ichorids become restless and start eating one another. Thankfully, Narcomoebas have flying. I swing for the Alpha Strike in the air and avoid any further Ichorid cannibalism. One thing I'd like to note is that Willie bluffed me into this situation by Forcing a crucial Cabal Therapy. Had I gained that information, I could've won earlier without fearing an Alpha Strike from his Dryads.
1-0 (2-0)

Round Two: Justin with The Mean Deck
Preface: Justin is a recent acquaintance of mine from Pittsburgh. He's a cool guy and a solid player.

Game One: When we talked earlier, I discovered what deck he was playing. I'm sure he overheard me doing my Ichorid thing as well, so it appears the jig is up for both of us. I open with Leyline Of The Void, Bazaar, and Chalice @ 0. Seems to be some good. I activate Bazaar and ditch Ichorid, Troll, and Cabal Therapy. I also had the Street Wraith. By the end of Turn Two, I've seen all my Ichorids, a few Therapies, and three Bridges. It's a bit lopsided from there. He scoops and we start boarding.

Game Two: We both open with Leylines, which is actually good for me in my opinion. My opener has Cabal Therapy and two rainbow lands in addition to Bazaar, so I'm in good shape. I find Chain Of Vapor and cast it, sending the Leyline to his hand. Luckily, he's running on artifact mana and can't Chain me back. Soon after, I drop Bazaar and start doing my thing all the while hardcasting and flashing back Cabal Therapies like it's going out of style. Pretty soon, I've seen all my Bridges and all my Ichorids. As a result, Justin's life total hits a number lower than Paris Hilton's IQ, so I guess we're done here.
2-0 (4-0)

Round Three: Steve with GAT
Preface: It's Smmenen. Therefore, I don't need a damn preface! (P.S. - Get SCG Premium today! Steve's stuff is golden.) 

Game One: He knows what I'm playing, so bad news gets worse when I win the roll. I open with Bazaar into Ichorid, Troll, and something else. I cycle Street Wraith and dredge into Stinkweed Imp. I then cycle another Street Wraith and dredge into Troll #2. The game ends in short order.

Game Two: This is where things get stupid. First off, He has to mull into oblivion. He stops at two cards, I believe. I mulligan a bunch as well, stopping at four cards. He gets a Needle down, but my Bazaar's been turned sideways a couple of times already. Soon after, I find Chain Of Vapor, Chain the Needle and Therapy it into another realm. After an untap, Bazaar finishes what it started. Although I am absolutely confident in this matchup even post-board, the mulligans turned a potentially great game and learning experience into a very bad game of Magic, all things considered.
3-0 (6-0)

Round Four: Mark with TrogdorSlaver.dec
Preface: Mark is without a doubt, the friendliest guy I've ever played magical cards with. Ever. He's really good to boot.

Game One: The game goes directly to my Raisin Bran phase and I scoop Mark into the Top 4 with me. I wouldn't gain anything from winning, and I'm ready for a mental break and a Vitamin Water.

Game Two: Rinse and repeat as needed.
3-1 (6-2)

Top 4: Me, Mark, Steve, and Jimmy
Preface: Yay for us, we're getting paid!

Game Zero: We split. I would've been more than happy to play it, but I think that this was the best conclusion to the evening.

Afterwards, we go to Thurman's for traditional burgers and debauchery. We discuss Sandwich Punch at great length and try to break the format. It turns out that eating sandwiches with the Pope leaves you open to "Acts Of God" unless you're an Atheist, in which case, enjoy your tuna on rye without fear or hesitation.

5 Random Songs From My IPod Shuffle:
"Makes Me Wonder" - Maroon 5
"Beethoven's 5th" - Trans-Siberian Orchestra
"Lost Without You" - Robin Thicke
"Remember The Name" - Fort Minor
"Home" - Michael Buble (Sorry Michael, I don't know how to create the accent online!)

Thanks to everyone for making a great time, as always!

Later,
Dave

[Shock Wave]

Round Three: Steve with GAT

Game One: He knows what I'm playing, so bad news gets worse when I win the roll. I open with Bazaar into Ichorid, Troll, and something else. I cycle Street Wraith and dredge into Stinkweed Imp. I then cycle another Street Wraith and dredge into Troll #2. The game ends in short order.

Game Two: This is where things get stupid. First off, He has to mull into oblivion. He stops at two cards, I believe. I mulligan a bunch as well, stopping at four cards. He gets a Needle down, but my Bazaar's been turned sideways a couple of times already. Soon after, I find Chain Of Vapor, Chain the Needle and Therapy it into another realm. After an untap, Bazaar finishes what it started. Although I am absolutely confident in this matchup even post-board, the mulligans turned a potentially great game and learning experience into a very bad game of Magic, all things considered.

Wow, hooray for Magic. I loved how much interactivity this matchup, and the rest of those in your report featured. I'm not knocking your report, in fact I really appreciate it. I just loathe your deck with a fiery passion and it hope it gets castrated by a dull set of tongs.

[Hi-Val]

Always a pleasure to see you!

[Smmenen]

FYI: in game 2, I don't HAVE to mulligan.  my hands were amazing... against anything else.   Scrolls, forces, dryads, etc. 

I was looking for one of my two pithing needles as I didn't have Yixlid Jailer or Leyline in my sb. 

My mull to two produced Strand and DT.  Keep!

Despite getting REAMED by you, I actually think that Ichorid is a good thing in the format and for the format.   I think its perfectly fair.  I made a strategic choice to allocate sb cards so that I'd lose to Ichorid to improve other matchups I felt were more relevant: specifically flash and stax.   I think Ichorid provides an important pivot point in the format and is a good thing.   Interactivity isn't the end all and be all of everything.   If the deck isn't that good in the metagame (and I don't think ichorid is (be careful, i'm not saying its a bad deck objectively speaking)), I really don't see a problem. 

good job! 

[Shock Wave]

Interactivity isn't the end all and be all of everything.     

It really should be, in my opinion. It has been a strong consideration when making B&R changes in the past, and I hope they continue to be made along the same line of reasoning.

[twault]

Dave, nice report. Congrats on the top 4. Something always comes up on Meandeck Open Sunday. One of these times, I hope I can make it. It sounds pretty competitive.

Are you going to the next tourney down here in "Da Valley"? If so, bring Ichorid. I've never got to play against it, and I need to learn how.

[Smmenen]

Interactivity isn't the end all and be all of everything.     

It really should be, in my opinion. It has been a strong consideration when making B&R changes in the past, and I hope they continue to be made along the same line of reasoning.

It's only a consideration when the deck that is non-interactive is actually capable of winning tournaments. 

See: Belcher and MD Tendrils.   They weren't, therefore no restrictions.   Same with Ichorid. 

[Shock Wave]

Interactivity isn't the end all and be all of everything.     

It really should be, in my opinion. It has been a strong consideration when making B&R changes in the past, and I hope they continue to be made along the same line of reasoning.

It's only a consideration when the deck that is non-interactive is actually capable of winning tournaments. 

See: Belcher and MD Tendrils.   They weren't, therefore no restrictions.   Same with Ichorid. 

Um, Trinisphere? Long? Those decks didn't win very many tournaments either, but they didn't exactly promote interactivity.

[Smmenen]

Trinisphere and Long didn't win many tournaments? 

I distinctly remember beating you to win multiple pieces of power to win a tournament piloting Long.dec. 

Moreover, Trinisphere won more tournaments than I could count.  To suggest that Trinisphere didn't win very many tournaments is not only grossly distorting, it's factually wrong.  Eric Miller alone won 3-4 SCG tournaments with Trinisphere.

 If I didn't know better, I'd think you were lying intentionally.   

Trinisphere and Long were capable of winning tournaments.   

Belcher, MD Tendrils, and Ichorid are not.   

[Purple Hat]

Trinisphere and Long didn't win many tournaments? 

I distinctly remember beating you to win multiple pieces of power to win a tournament piloting Long.dec. 

Moreover, Trinisphere won more tournaments than I could count.  To suggest that Trinisphere didn't win very many tournaments is not only grossly distorting, it's factually wrong.  Eric Miller alone won 3-4 SCG tournaments with Trinisphere.

 If I didn't know better, I'd think you were lying intentionally.   

Trinisphere and Long were capable of winning tournaments.   

Belcher, MD Tendrils, and Ichorid are not.   

the last month or so ichorid has been putting up fairly solid numbers.  while I haven't noticed it winning anything it's making way too many top 8's/top 4's, etc to be dismissed as easily as you are.  it's gonna win something eventually.

[Shock Wave]

Moreover, Trinisphere won more tournaments than I could count.  To suggest that Trinisphere didn't win very many tournaments is not only grossly distorting, it's factually wrong.  Eric Miller alone won 3-4 SCG tournaments with Trinisphere.

Trinisphere and Long were capable of winning tournaments.   

Belcher, MD Tendrils, and Ichorid are not.   

Yeah, Long won some tournaments. So did Trinisphere. I wouldn't say many though. The difference is that Trinisphere.dec and Long.dec didn't have free hosers like Leyline. Imagine if, at the time, there existed a Leyline of the Long, that essentially said "If this is in play Long.dec can't win." Would that have made Long.dec any more fair or interactive? It might've made it less dominant, but that doesn't mean it would've been a reasonable deck.

Gauging whether a deck needs neutering solely based on its performance is a terrible mistake.

[Smmenen]

Moreover, Trinisphere won more tournaments than I could count.  To suggest that Trinisphere didn't win very many tournaments is not only grossly distorting, it's factually wrong.  Eric Miller alone won 3-4 SCG tournaments with Trinisphere.

Trinisphere and Long were capable of winning tournaments.   

Belcher, MD Tendrils, and Ichorid are not.   

Yeah, Long won some tournaments. So did Trinisphere. I wouldn't say many though. The difference is that Trinisphere.dec and Long.dec didn't have free hosers like Leyline. Imagine if, at the time, there existed a Leyline of the Long, that essentially said "If this is in play Long.dec can't win." Would that have made Long.dec any more fair or interactive? It might've made it less dominant, but that doesn't mean it would've been a reasonable deck.

Gauging whether a deck needs neutering solely based on its performance is a terrible mistake.

You said that you thought bazaar should be restricted because it caused non-interactivity.

I replied by saying that non-interactivity is not the sole criterion for restriction because decks have to be good too.

To that you responded that non-interactivity has been a strong factor in determining whether to restrict and that therefore Bazaar should be considered in the same terms as Trinisphere and LED.

To that I responded that the difference betwen Trinisphere and LED is that they were capable of winning tournaments and did do so.   

Now, you are saying, very strangely, that my contention is that we should only make decisions based upon performance.   That's not what I said.

My claim was simple: interactivity is not the sole basis for restriction.   To that, you somehow transmorgrafied my claim into a claim that performance is the sole basis for restriction.

In short, it looks like this:

1) You said A.

2) I said not simply A, because of B.

3) You said, but A is an important factor.

4) I said: yes, but so is B.   

5) You say: It can't be just B.

Do you see how incredibly bad you've twisted my words by abstracting the back and forth into making it seem like I've made a claim that I didn't make?   Shameful.

A corolllary to your claim would be if I said (and this would be far more accurate): restricting cards on theory alone is a terrible idea.

It's really very simple:

The DCI has restricted great decks in the past based upon their level of interactivity: specifically, LED and Trinisphere.

However, that is not nor has it ever been the sole criterion for restriction.     There are many, many decks that were just as non-interactive but not restricted.   Why?  Because they can't win tournaments.

Once again: Long and 3Sphere Workshop decks were tournament winners through and through.    Ichorid, Belcher, and MD Tendrils are not;

You have a warped understanding of history with respect to your claim that Trinisphere didn't win many tournaments.

Let's take a look at the facts:

July 2004, metagame breakdown:
http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/7922.html

2 of 9 tournaments won by Workshosp
3 of those 9 a trinisphere deck got 2nd place

that's 5 of 18 decks in top 2 taken up by 3spheres

Aug. 2004:
http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/8065.html
1 of 5 tournaments running 3 Spheres
4 of those 5 tournaments were 3sphere decks

that's 5 of 10 top 2 slots taken by 3Spheres

Sept. 2004 Metagame Breakdown:
http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/8244.html
4 Trinisphere decks win 8 tournaments

Even a cursory examination of tournament total Completely and utterly refutes your ludicrious assertion. 

No one in their right mind could claim that "trinisphere didn't win very many tournaments" (as you did) after an examination of the facts.   

The only corrollary would be someone saying that "Gifts didn't win many tournamenmts."

ANY examination of tournament data shows that 3Sphere decks were among the best performing the format, period.

Ichorid, in contrast, is far from among the best performing decks in Vintage.   

  I'm still in shock that you would say that Workshop decks didn't win many tournaments, let alone compare their performance to Ichorid.

[Razvan]

steve, i am not certain where richard said bazaar needs to be restricted. in fact, i think he means more that the actual card Flash has a terribly stupid rule that's abusable and not in the intent of the card, much like time vault and such. at least, i think that's what he means.

[Smmenen]

steve, i am not certain where richard said bazaar needs to be restricted. in fact, i think he means more that the actual card Flash has a terribly stupid rule that's abusable and not in the intent of the card, much like time vault and such. at least, i think that's what he means.

All due respect: just read what Rich wrote:

Round Three: Steve with GAT

Game One: He knows what I'm playing, so bad news gets worse when I win the roll. I open with Bazaar into Ichorid, Troll, and something else. I cycle Street Wraith and dredge into Stinkweed Imp. I then cycle another Street Wraith and dredge into Troll #2. The game ends in short order.

Game Two: This is where things get stupid. First off, He has to mull into oblivion. He stops at two cards, I believe. I mulligan a bunch as well, stopping at four cards. He gets a Needle down, but my Bazaar's been turned sideways a couple of times already. Soon after, I find Chain Of Vapor, Chain the Needle and Therapy it into another realm. After an untap, Bazaar finishes what it started. Although I am absolutely confident in this matchup even post-board, the mulligans turned a potentially great game and learning experience into a very bad game of Magic, all things considered.

Wow, hooray for Magic. I loved how much interactivity this matchup, and the rest of those in your report featured. I'm not knocking your report, in fact I really appreciate it. I just loathe your deck with a fiery passion and it hope it gets castrated by a dull set of tongs.

1) Rich was CLEARLY referring to Ichorid.    "I loathe your deck."    "Your deck" referring to the Ichorid list.

2) "I hope it gets castrated."   Nuff said.

[Implacable]

steve, i am not certain where richard said bazaar needs to be restricted. in fact, i think he means more that the actual card Flash has a terribly stupid rule that's abusable and not in the intent of the card, much like time vault and such. at least, i think that's what he means.

All due respect: just read what Rich wrote:

Round Three: Steve with GAT

Game One: He knows what I'm playing, so bad news gets worse when I win the roll. I open with Bazaar into Ichorid, Troll, and something else. I cycle Street Wraith and dredge into Stinkweed Imp. I then cycle another Street Wraith and dredge into Troll #2. The game ends in short order.

Game Two: This is where things get stupid. First off, He has to mull into oblivion. He stops at two cards, I believe. I mulligan a bunch as well, stopping at four cards. He gets a Needle down, but my Bazaar's been turned sideways a couple of times already. Soon after, I find Chain Of Vapor, Chain the Needle and Therapy it into another realm. After an untap, Bazaar finishes what it started. Although I am absolutely confident in this matchup even post-board, the mulligans turned a potentially great game and learning experience into a very bad game of Magic, all things considered.

Wow, hooray for Magic. I loved how much interactivity this matchup, and the rest of those in your report featured. I'm not knocking your report, in fact I really appreciate it. I just loathe your deck with a fiery passion and it hope it gets castrated by a dull set of tongs.

1) Rich was CLEARLY referring to Ichorid.    "I loathe your deck."    "Your deck" referring to the Ichorid list.

2) "I hope it gets castrated."   Nuff said.

Actually, if you read his post history (from the last day), Shock Wave indicates that he thinks that it would be wrong to restrict Bazaar, but that instead some enabling card, like Serum Powder, should be removed from the equation.  Now I still agree with Smmenen here, in that neither Flash nor Ichorid should be neutered, but Mr. Menendian is unknowingly misrepresenting his position.

[Smmenen]

If " I hope it gets castrated" doesn't refer to restriction, then what DOES it mean? 

Regardless of whether he wants Bazaar restricted or not:

1) Trinisphere decks won PLENTY of Tournaments

2) Decks are not restricted without being tournament winning contenders.   

[Shock Wave]

1) Rich was CLEARLY referring to Ichorid.    "I loathe your deck."    "Your deck" referring to the Ichorid list.
2) "I hope it gets castrated."   Nuff said.

Well, at least Razvan considered that I didn't necessarily mean hitting Bazaar. However, I would look into all the possible ways to neuter Ichorid outside of Bazaar, and if none of those proved to be sufficient, then I would strongly consider restricting it. By castrated, I meant that it should be addressed by being weakened in some manner, so that decks are not forced to run 4 Leylines just to have a chance against it.

That's where we differ: I think Ichorid and Flash stifle interactivity and skew the metagame heavily. This combination of factors is enough to warrant action against both archetypes. You seem to feel that running 4 Leyline in the board should be a staple for most decks, and I feel strongly against that. There's no reconciling this difference, so let's just leave it at that.

As for that tirade you went on, I hope you enjoyed it. I'll only concede that I was wrong to say that Trinisphere did not win many events. That's just factually incorrect, but it does not change my position or my original argument.

[Implacable]

"I hope it gets castrated" means that he hopes a non-Bazaar card that is instrumental, e.g. Serum Powder, is restricted.

Regardless, however, of his position on Bazaar, the fact remains that any comparison between Long/Trinisphere.dec and Flash/Ichorid is fundamentally flawed.  The key distinction between the two is this; Flash and Ichorid are powerful based on synergies between cards, and can be attacked as such.  LED, Burning Wish, and Trinisphere, on the other hand, were powerful because they produced effects that were broken at their mana cost.  That is the definition of an overpowered card, and while cards can be restricted for other reasons, simple undercosting is the principle explanation for the majority of bannings and restrictions in any format. 

[Shock Wave]

"I hope it gets castrated" means that he hopes a non-Bazaar card that is instrumental, e.g. Serum Powder, is restricted.

Regardless, however, of his position on Bazaar, the fact remains that any comparison between Long/Trinisphere.dec and Flash/Ichorid is fundamentally flawed.  The key distinction between the two is this; Flash and Ichorid are powerful based on synergies between cards, and can be attacked as such.  LED, Burning Wish, and Trinisphere, on the other hand, were powerful because they produced effects that were broken at their mana cost.  That is the definition of an overpowered card, and while cards can be restricted for other reasons, simple undercosting is the principle explanation for the majority of bannings and restrictions in any format. 

Oh goodness me. A 2-card combo that wins the game isn't considered an overpowered effect for 2cc? Are we for real here?

What's the difference between going: MWS -> 3s -> Go

and

Land, other source, Flash, Hulk -> GG ?

From a probability perspective, there is not much difference. From a cost-effect perspective, Flash is worse. It wins the freaking game! 

[Implacable]

"I hope it gets castrated" means that he hopes a non-Bazaar card that is instrumental, e.g. Serum Powder, is restricted.

Regardless, however, of his position on Bazaar, the fact remains that any comparison between Long/Trinisphere.dec and Flash/Ichorid is fundamentally flawed.  The key distinction between the two is this; Flash and Ichorid are powerful based on synergies between cards, and can be attacked as such.  LED, Burning Wish, and Trinisphere, on the other hand, were powerful because they produced effects that were broken at their mana cost.  That is the definition of an overpowered card, and while cards can be restricted for other reasons, simple undercosting is the principle explanation for the majority of bannings and restrictions in any format. 

Oh goodness me. A 2-card combo that wins the game isn't considered an overpowered effect for 2cc? Are we for real here?

What's the difference between going: MWS -> 3s -> Go

and

Land, other source, Flash, Hulk -> GG ?

From a probability perspective, there is not much difference. From a cost-effect perspective, Flash is worse. It wins the freaking game! 

You are misrepresenting what I am saying.  The 1st rule of restrictions is this: Cards that produce an overpowered effect for their mana cost are restricted.  Ancestral Recall gets 3 cards for 1 mana; Demonic Tutor gets any card for 2 mana; Regrowth gets back a card for 2 mana.  All of these cards have been reprinted in later sets with 'fair' mana costs, and none of them have been amazing.  This is the fundamental rule of restrictions.  Flash produces a game-winning effect in conjunction with another card.  It is not any good in and of itself, as opposed to the other three, core-to-Type-1 cards that I just referenced.  Therefore, comparisons between it and the Big 3 of LED, Burning Wish, and Trinisphere are fallacious.

[Shock Wave]

"I hope it gets castrated" means that he hopes a non-Bazaar card that is instrumental, e.g. Serum Powder, is restricted.

Regardless, however, of his position on Bazaar, the fact remains that any comparison between Long/Trinisphere.dec and Flash/Ichorid is fundamentally flawed.  The key distinction between the two is this; Flash and Ichorid are powerful based on synergies between cards, and can be attacked as such.  LED, Burning Wish, and Trinisphere, on the other hand, were powerful because they produced effects that were broken at their mana cost.  That is the definition of an overpowered card, and while cards can be restricted for other reasons, simple undercosting is the principle explanation for the majority of bannings and restrictions in any format. 

Oh goodness me. A 2-card combo that wins the game isn't considered an overpowered effect for 2cc? Are we for real here?

What's the difference between going: MWS -> 3s -> Go

and

Land, other source, Flash, Hulk -> GG ?

From a probability perspective, there is not much difference. From a cost-effect perspective, Flash is worse. It wins the freaking game! 

You are misrepresenting what I am saying.  The 1st rule of restrictions is this: Cards that produce an overpowered effect for their mana cost are restricted.  Ancestral Recall gets 3 cards for 1 mana; Demonic Tutor gets any card for 2 mana; Regrowth gets back a card for 2 mana.  All of these cards have been reprinted in later sets with 'fair' mana costs, and none of them have been amazing.  This is the fundamental rule of restrictions.  Flash produces a game-winning effect in conjunction with another card.  It is not any good in and of itself, as opposed to the other three, core-to-Type-1 cards that I just referenced.  Therefore, comparisons between it and the Big 3 of LED, Burning Wish, and Trinisphere are fallacious.

I'm not comparing cards here. I'm comparing the degeneracy of archetypes, and I'm not relying on your definition as basis for my conclusion. That is a dated definition. It just so happens that the format has changed recently, so much that degenerate card combinations are now very much a reality. We have 0 CC spells that do absurd things in an already blazing fast format. The combination of all these cards, regardless of that fact that not 1 of them is potent in and of itself, has created a state of degeneracy. As such, I submit that it makes sense to restrict the causal element: Flash. Before the errata, no such degeneracy existed. It already shit on one format, and it has no business existing in multiples in Vintage. I really can't elaborate any more without beating a dead horse. Either we agree, or we disagree. All our cards are on the table at this point, there's no point in further beleaguering this poor issue.

[policehq]

Didn't you just win a tournament with Landstill?

What's the problem here?

If you want the game to be interactive, it seems you have made it so. If someone wants to play Ichorid and not win a tournament, that is probably within their means.

It really is up to the players themselves whether they want to take the chance of Leylines in their sideboard or not. You attended a tournament with a terrible ratio of Leylines in the side to Ichorid decks played, meaning a lot of people made the wrong calls. A restriction can't take place based on bad choices like that.

-hq

[Shock Wave]

Didn't you just win a tournament with Landstill?

What's the problem here?

If you want the game to be interactive, it seems you have made it so. If someone wants to play Ichorid and not win a tournament, that is probably within their means.

It really is up to the players themselves whether they want to take the chance of Leylines in their sideboard or not. You attended a tournament with a terrible ratio of Leylines in the side to Ichorid decks played, meaning a lot of people made the wrong calls. A restriction can't take place based on bad choices like that.

-hq

I could win a tournament with MountainGoat.dec and it wouldn't have any more or less relevance to the issue. I've been winning tournaments with Landstill since 2001 and we've seen plenty of changes in the format since then. What does that have to do with anything?

I am advocating for a restriction based on the arguments that Flash and Ichorid are format warping archetypes that severely weaken the potential for decks to win unless they run a very narrow solution in the sideboard, which is not easy to support and severely skews mulligan decisions.

I am advocating for a restriction based on the argument that Flash wins an unacceptable amount of the time on Turn 1 and Turn 2, and evidence is gathering that it is indeed a capable of wining tournaments.

I am advocating for a restriction based on the line of reasoning by Forsythe in his blurb on the restriction of Trinisphere:

"Vintage, like the other formats with large card pools, always runs the risk of becoming non-interactive, meaning the games are little more than both players “goldfishing” to see who can win first. Trinisphere adds to that problem by literally preventing the opponent from playing spells. We don't want Magic to be about that, especially not that easily. If combo rears its head, we'll worry about it later. But for now, we want to people to play their cards. Really."

If we can reason that Trinisphere prevents players from using their cards at too early a stage in the game, then certainly Flash is damnable by the same line of reasoning.

This is not a haphazard thought that I am out on limb about. A lot of players feel the same way. I don't like making calls for restriction, but the last time I raised my voice about a restriction issue (Crucible/Trinisphere era), it turned out that action needed to be taken in the eyes of the DCI (not because of what I said, but because there actually was a problem). I feel that what makes Magic fun is the interactive element, and unleashing weapons like Ichorid and Flash into the format is a severe detriment to its enjoyability. I hope that clarifies my position for you.

[JACO]

...However, I would look into all the possible ways to neuter Ichorid outside of Bazaar, and if none of those proved to be sufficient, then I would strongly consider restricting it. By castrated, I meant that it should be addressed by being weakened in some manner, so that decks are not forced to run 4 Leylines just to have a chance against it.

That's where we differ: I think Ichorid and Flash stifle interactivity and skew the metagame heavily. This combination of factors is enough to warrant action against both archetypes. You seem to feel that running 4 Leyline in the board should be a staple for most decks, and I feel strongly against that. There's no reconciling this difference, so let's just leave it at that.

Rich, you should already know I have the utmost respect for you as a player and a Magic theorist, but I can't agree with your logic regarding the fact that Leyline of the Void shouldn't be a staple in people's sideboards. It is simply to combat the current metagame. How is this any different than people running Red Elemental Blast main deck to compete against blue based decks, which seem to always be the majority of a tournament in Vintage? It's not any different, becausee players should always simply build and tune their deck against what they expect to face. At the last big tournament in Madrid there were 149 people present, including 13 playing Ichorid (the most played deck). Do you know how many made top 8? ZERO. Do you know how many made top 32? ZERO. In the top 8 there were 4 people playing Leyline of the Void in their sideboard. The fact is that as the players adjust to existing strategies and they figure out the correct hate cards, decks like Ichorid and Flash will continue to exist, but just not wind up being as successful. I mean Chalice of the Void for 0 alone shuts off like 15 cards (a whopping 1/4) in the Flash deck. I'm not really worried about it.

Vintage inherently has the largest and most powerful card pool of any format. Deck and sideboard construction to combat what you expect to face in a tournament shouldn't really be a criteria for restriction, but it is almost always a factor in determining what deck wins a given tournament. Yes, Ichorid or Flash might not be fun for you (meaning Rich) to play against, but I can tell you that Landstill sure as hell isn't fun to play against for me, in either Vintage or Legacy. And that's coming from the person who helped build and tune what I consider to be the most powerful Landstill deck in Legacy (BHWC 4C). I never thought fun should be part of the equation of restriction policy either for this very reason. It could be very fun for me to build a degenerate deck, and very unfun for my opponent to get dismantled by it, or vice versa. I pretty much never have fun losing in a tournament. Fun is totally arbitrary.

As I have always maintained, there is usually little or no need to push for restriction of anything anymore. Give the players a little time, and as the metagame ebbs and flows, they players will solve the problems and figure it out themselves.

To prevent this from being entirely about restriction, how many people were in attendance in this tournament of 4 rounds and cut to a top 4? Like 12 people? I don't understand how Columbus, which seems to have the biggest Regionals and PTQs of anywhere in the US, can't even muster like 20 people for these tournaments on a regular basis.

[Zarathustra]

You are misrepresenting what I am saying.  The 1st rule of restrictions is this: Cards that produce an overpowered effect for their mana cost are restricted.  Ancestral Recall gets 3 cards for 1 mana; Demonic Tutor gets any card for 2 mana; Regrowth gets back a card for 2 mana.  All of these cards have been reprinted in later sets with 'fair' mana costs, and none of them have been amazing.  This is the fundamental rule of restrictions.  Flash produces a game-winning effect in conjunction with another card.  It is not any good in and of itself, as opposed to the other three, core-to-Type-1 cards that I just referenced. Therefore, comparisons between it and the Big 3 of LED, Burning Wish, and Trinisphere are fallacious.

Huh? 

Flash produces a warped environment... in the form of a game winning 2-card combo.  That for the most part wins by turn 2 and in most cases turn 1.  With counter back-up, often with double counter back-up.  This is just to reiterate, to make sure we're looking at the same cards and the same examples.

LED, Burning Wish and Trinisphere were all nuked because they were broken.  Sure, LED is essentially another Lotus.  Wish is another Demonic Tutor.  And Trinisphere... well it's just unfair.

But to say none of these were 2 card combos is just ridiculous.  Burning Wish was in Long almost exclusively for Yawgmoth's Will.  Having 4 Wills in a deck is insane.  And Trinisphere was way too powerful with the fast mana Stax uses, namely Mishra's Workshop.

Honestly, everyone complained about Trinisphere.  And Stax was never capable of protecting it's 3Sphere.  Nevermind with the same consistency that Flash can protect itself.

-DShell

[Smmenen]

So much for Dave Dougherty's tournament report... can someone please lock up this thread or split it into a different topic?    Do we really need another mind numbing restriction debate here?     Ugh.   

[diopter]

Contagion x 3

What were the maindeck Contagions for? Off the top of my head I can't think of any creatures in game 1 that scare me.

[Shock Wave]

Rich, you should already know I have the utmost respect for you as a player and a Magic theorist, but I can't agree with your logic regarding the fact that Leyline of the Void shouldn't be a staple in people's sideboards. It is simply to combat the current metagame. How is this any different than people running Red Elemental Blast main deck to compete against blue based decks, which seem to always be the majority of a tournament in Vintage? It's not any different, becausee players should always simply build and tune their deck against what they expect to face.

At the last big tournament in Madrid there were 149 people present, including 13 playing Ichorid (the most played deck). Do you know how many made top 8? ZERO. Do you know how many made top 32? ZERO. In the top 8 there were 4 people playing Leyline of the Void in their sideboard. The fact is that as the players adjust to existing strategies and they figure out the correct hate cards, decks like Ichorid and Flash will continue to exist, but just not wind up being as successful. I mean Chalice of the Void for 0 alone shuts off like 15 cards (a whopping 1/4) in the Flash deck. I'm not really worried about it.

Well, likewise J, but I'm on the opposite side of the fence with respect to your logic as well. I keep hearing this argument that because there are solutions to Flash that this implies there is no problem. This is not sound reasoning. What difference does it make that Chalice shuts off 15 cards in the deck? Does that mean that because Chalice also shuts off Black Lotus, that perhaps we should just unrestrict that too? I mean, there are ways to answer it and hedge against it right? Why not just pack every deck and sideboard with 4 Chalice and 4 Annuls, or something else ridiculous? Using your logic, the players could simply "adapt" to the metagame.

J, there comes a point where it no longer makes sense to adapt and the environment is just not healthy. So where do we draw the line? Well, we don't. The DCI does, and they did with Trinisphere, while clearly outlining their logic.

Vintage inherently has the largest and most powerful card pool of any format. Deck and sideboard construction to combat what you expect to face in a tournament shouldn't really be a criteria for restriction, but it is almost always a factor in determining what deck wins a given tournament. Yes, Ichorid or Flash might not be fun for you (meaning Rich) to play against, but I can tell you that Landstill sure as hell isn't fun to play against for me, in either Vintage or Legacy. And that's coming from the person who helped build and tune what I consider to be the most powerful Landstill deck in Legacy (BHWC 4C). I never thought fun should be part of the equation of restriction policy either for this very reason. It could be very fun for me to build a degenerate deck, and very unfun for my opponent to get dismantled by it, or vice versa. I pretty much never have fun losing in a tournament. Fun is totally arbitrary.

You're wrong though. Fun is not arbitrary. Our own personal interpretations of fun may hold no weight in the debate we're having now, but I assure you that the DCI listened when people were howling that Trinisphere was "unfun". It was unfun, in my opinion, and in that of the DCI. Why not ask them what their definition of fun is? I personally don't care, because to me, it seems the DCI considers interactivity to be an integral part of a fun environment for the majority of players, regardless of how our own personal interpretations may differ.

As I have always maintained, there is usually little or no need to push for restriction of anything anymore. Give the players a little time, and as the metagame ebbs and flows, they players will solve the problems and figure it out themselves.

Yes, you've always maintained that. If I recall correctly, you were opposed to the restriction of Trinisphere. It's clear to me that you don't place a high premium on player interaction, judging from your stance on that occasion and in this one. I just can't relate, so we'll just have to disagree. I can only hope the DCI sees the similarities in degeneracy between TriniStax and Flash the way I perceive them.

I would contend that there is always a need to make changes to the B&R list. New sets come out, card interactions change, and broken mechanics are discovered. Sometimes, they are so broken that action needs to be taken instead of watching the format degenerate.

[Tin_Mox5831]

Well, we are so far off track that this thread's probably warped too far to recover. I would like to address a couple of points, however.

1) Steve, when I said you had to mulligan, I meant in the scope of the situation and taking the matchup into consideration. Also, I understood your sideboard decision and would likely follow suit to some extent in your situation. It was the right call and I agree, I just didn't want to get into the issue of your sideboard, as it's been something kept to yourself at times. If it came off wrong, I really do apologize. Just trying to respect your privacy.

2) I likely will attend the St. Clairsville tournament this time around. You guys should push for the next one to allow proxies and we could post an announcement a few weeks before. I love those tournaments and I wish we could draw more folks.

3) I ran the Contagions in the maindeck not to answer a problem in Game One, but rather in an attempt to squeeze all of my answers in the sideboard. The Contagions made the maindeck by simple virtue of being the only free spell and therefore the only one castable in Game One.

4) Great to see you as well, Mr. Linn.

Hope that helped.

Later,
Dave Daugherty 

[Twaun007]

Good tourney report (excluding the B&R discussion). I had a blast a Thurman,s and totally tried to syke you out on me being allergic to vinegar.
We also had a sweet discussion about acts of god in sandwich punch. so good!

Congrats on making top 4 with Ichorid and I can't wait to see ya at RIW.