Six of One, Half Dozen of the Other

[M.Solymossy]

@ Brian:  Then you need to come to the ICBM Opens in Milwaukee!  The Ohio crew makes it, you might be able to swing a caravan!

@ Stephen:  I completely agree with you.  Although I was not at Richmond  due to having one programming class this summer that reflects on everything in life I want to do, I spoke with the Ohio crew, The ICBM guys, and a couple others and I definitely missed a great time.   Flash is no longer at critical mass, gush decks are obviously dominant, but not too much so, shops are playable again...  We are seeing a return to a diverse field, and it excites me! 

Also, I  heard you decimated one Benjamin Carp sammach.    GG having to buy him another one!

[Smmenen]

Well, it's almost here.  Chapin has called it the "hyper-modern" Vintage era.  I like ELD's simple "New Age of Vintage."   

Right now I've been most impressed with Control Slaver in testing.   The deck is just a monster. 

Here's my list:

Control Slaver
By Stephen Menendian

3 Island
2 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
4 Volcanic Island
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Lotus Petal
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
4 Force Of Will
4 Mana Drain
4 Thirst For Knowledge
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Darksteel Colossus
2 Mindslaver
1 Triskelion
4 Goblin Welder
1 Echoing Truth
1 Fire / Ice
1 Rack And Ruin

Sideboard:
4 Leyline
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Extirpate
1 Sundering Titan
2 Pyroclasm
2 Rack and Ruin
1 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast

I'm looking to include two Sensei's Divining Tops.   Tops seem like obvious additions, but I'll be honest.  I'm afraid to play with Tops.   I have had troubling avoiding going to time.   Top is a card that sucks lots of time out of a match with all its activations.   

That said, this deck has been testing very well.   I think it is obviously going to be a top tier deck, and right now it is my leading candidate for the Vintage Champs. 

[AngryPheldagrif]

Couple questions on the list:
A) Maindeck R&R? What are you afraid of in the metagame that calls for this in the main?

B) No Duress-effects. Is this based on an expectation that traditional combo will be largely non-existant?

[Smmenen]

Tormod's Crypt, in a sense, is this deck's Duress.   Control Slaver has always been a deck light on Duress effects, but striving to interact in other ways.   I also think at this time, although I could turn out to be wrong, that Duress will be mediocre in the new metagame. 

You'll recall my top ten unrestricted spells in Vintage from a few weeks ago:

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/15876.html

1) Brainstorm
2) Force of Will
3) Merchant Scroll
4) Thoughtseize
5) Duress
6) Gush
7) Leyline of the Void
8) Dark Ritual
9) Ponder
10) Tormod’s Crypt

It's very early, but right now my new list looks something like this:

1) Force of Will
2) Mana Drain
3) Thirst For Knowledge
4) Sensei's Divining Top
5) Dark Confidant
6) Goblin Welder
7) Dark Ritual
8) Trinket Mage
9) Thorn of Amethyst
10) Tormod's Crypt

Duress and Thoughtseize have dropped from my top ten list.   I just think that decks will be interacting in other ways.  Thorns and Ichorid will be around quite a bit and Duress will have little effect on them.   I think that Red Blast is now more important than Duress again, particularly with Painters amuck. 

The maindeck Rack and Ruin is a relic of the 2005 and 2006 metagame where Control Slaver dominated Workshop fields.  It is likely that I will turn the RnR and the Fire/Ice into two Tops. 

[MuzzonoAmi]

While I can't speak for Steve, I'm testing a similar deck, and with combo expected to be significantly slower (and less consistent), there's less of a need to Duress on turn 1-2 to slow them down. It also forces you to run additional nonbasic lands, which is a huge risk given the strength and prevalence of Blood Moon and Magus in the new meta. In every multicolor control deck I've tested, from bad Keeper to CS to Gifts-inspired Painter's Servant, has used black very little - almost exclusively for Demonic Tutor and Yawgwill, and perhaps Vamp. All Duress does is strengthen the combo matchup, which Extirpate does better postboard.

EDIT: Steve posted while I was writing. There you have it.

[AngryPheldagrif]

Fair enough. Also, at that top 10 unrestricted list, no Oath? I don't know if I'd put Ritual in there and not include Oath without solid proof storm is going to be a force in the coming meta.

[M.Solymossy]

Man, I can't wait to play New Slaver with GWSx.  That deck gets butchered by GWSx. 

You play so many cards that are dead against combo decks.   I know Steve you don't feel that ritual based combo decks will be that good in the field, but you've replaced cards that can fight ritual for cards in the other potential matchups.  I don't quite agree that Tormods Crypt = duress, because Quite honestly, most storm decks don't use willenium the way they used to.

[MuzzonoAmi]

I know that I'm hoping that the new Shop decks will keep combo in check. In at 15 proxy event, it's fairly easy to build one, and it's a comparably easy archetype to play passably. So it's more of a "I know the matchup isn't great, but X-1 tends to make top 8." position.

[Smmenen]

Revised list:

Control Slaver
By Stephen Menendian

3 Island
2 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
4 Volcanic Island
1 Tolarian Academy

1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Lotus Petal
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus

4 Force Of Will
4 Mana Drain
4 Thirst For Knowledge

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
2 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Tinker

1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will

1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Darksteel Colossus
2 Mindslaver
1 Triskelion

4 Goblin Welder
1 Echoing Truth

Sideboard:
4 Leyline
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Extirpate
1 Sundering Titan
2 Pyroclasm
2 Rack and Ruin
1 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast

This list has been incredible.   It is so smooth and so powerful.   The Tops have been very powerful, with synergies that require alternative plays.  For instance, Fetchlands have very powerful interaction with Top. Welders are amazing with Top if you can get an artifact into the graveyard, especially a Mindslaver.

There has been an interesting debate about Trike versus Triskelavus or Grim Poppet on the starcitygames forums.  I intend to try Triskelavus over Trike at some point, but at this time I prefer Trike for several reasons, one of which is that sometimes you just have to immediately kill Welders (or Bobs) with no mana up. 

[AngryPheldagrif]

Please for the love of God don't run Grim Poppet. I toyed with it in a number of capacities, both Workshop and Welder-based, and it sucked in all of them. You simply cannot afford to have a  cost 1/1 at times.

[Smmenen]

No, I know that.  I was just relaying what people were suggesting. 

[AngryPheldagrif]

No, I know that.  I was just relaying what people were suggesting. 

I figured, just being clear. Poppet sucks hard enough to write an essay on.

As for the deck itself, it seems very compleat for a metagame not even established. I like it a lot and am highly considering it for the championship. Given my historical hatred of CS in any form whatsoever, I'd like to think of that as a high compliment on the list

[Smmenen]

No, I know that.  I was just relaying what people were suggesting. 

I figured, just being clear. Poppet sucks hard enough to write an essay on.

As for the deck itself, it seems very compleat for a metagame not even established. I like it a lot and am highly considering it for the championship. Given my historical hatred of CS in any form whatsoever, I'd like to think of that as a high compliment on the list

Thanks - I feel the same way.   Control Slaver is to me the worst great Vintage deck.  I even admired UR Gay Fish more, for the sheer farce of Null Rod pwning.  At least with Gay Fish there is no pretense.   I think a big saving grace is how explosive this deck feels now, at least relative to the field.   

[desolutionist]

Man, I can't wait to play New Slaver with GWSx.  That deck gets butchered by GWSx. 

You play so many cards that are dead against combo decks.   I know Steve you don't feel that ritual based combo decks will be that good in the field, but you've replaced cards that can fight ritual for cards in the other potential matchups.  I don't quite agree that Tormods Crypt = duress, because Quite honestly, most storm decks don't use willenium the way they used to.

I don't know if storm decks are using Will in any different frequency and I don't think Steve is using Tormod's Crypt to foil them.  The card is great against any deck that uses the graveyard, which is...  everything.

Smmenen, do you have any storm decks in your testing gauntlet?
[/quote]

[Smmenen]

Currently I have two lists, one which is five color, essentially for Regrowth alone, as I wouldn't run Swarm anymore.   Here is the fetchland version of the same. 

Grim Long 2008
Stephen Menendian

1 Tendrils Of Agony
1 Yawgmoth's Will

1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Mind's Desire

1 Ancestral Recall

1 Timetwister
1 Wheel Of Fortune
1 Windfall
1 Memory Jar
1 Tinker

1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor

3 Grim Tutor

3 Thoughtseize
3 Duress

1 Chain of Vapor
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Time Walk

3 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Tolarian Academy

1 Black Lotus
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring

2 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual

Sideboard:

4 Leyline of the Void
3 Island
1 Swamp
2 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Rebuild
1 Extirpate
2 Pyroblast

More on this deck in the future, no doubt...

[Matt]

Wow, that thing is practically Dark Ritual and Grim Tutor away from being criticalmass.dec.

[Smmenen]

I believe I'm at the point where I've made Slaver "my own" here.  I've come to understand the basic mechanics of the deck in a deeper way, which I can elaborate on at some point.   But most importantly, I've made some radical changes that are very much in line with what I did with Gifts and GAT.

Here is my most recent list:

4 Top Control Slaver
By Stephen Menendian

3 Island
2 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
4 Volcanic Island
1 Tolarian Academy

1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Lotus Petal
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus

4 Force Of Will
4 Mana Drain
4 Thirst For Knowledge

4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Tinker

1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will

1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Mindslaver
1 Triskelion

2 Goblin Welder
1 Echoing Truth

Sideboard:
4 Leyline
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Extirpate
1 Fire/Ice
2 Pyroclasm
2 Rack and Ruin
1 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast

Changes:

- 2 Welders
- 1 Slaver
+ 2 Tops
+ 1 Imperial Seal

The Imperial Seal is added to complement the four Tops.

This Slaver list is now approaching my basic Vintage maxim of 4s and 1s, as was my GAT and Gifts lists.   The only obvious exception being the two Welders. 

My SB is still a work in progress.   I recognize that my combo match is the most important to shore up.  I am not sure, but I hope that extirpates will be critical there.  I will need to do alot of extensive Long testing.   

I've received some criticism for my Tinker package, especially DSC.   I stand by it on the assumption that Slaver is a Tinker and Will deck, utilizing Tinker far more than other blue decks.  DSC is the quickest route to victory and is difficult, especially since the restriction of Scroll and even Brainstorm, to quickly find answers for it.

I'm very, very happy with the maindeck.   Updates as I progress...

[Moxlotus]

Not a big fan of the Crucible/artifact land combo Steve?  Do you feel that you can have a handle on shops with only 2 Welders and without Cow?  I'm surprised you have such a love for Top.  I wouldn't think it would be a card you want to see in every opening hand.  Not worried about Null Rod?  I'm most surprised at the Seal, considering that I tend to board out Vamp a lot if I even play the card.  I guess they get better with the additional tops though.  Looks like your build is very effective at my joke about how to play CS:  Find Tinker and cast it before you die.

I really like your sideboard though.  Lots of 2 and 1 ofs I think work well for a Slaver board.

[Smmenen]

I gave up on CS.

I think the number one problem is that CS has a fundamental disadvantage against Long variants.  Goblin Welder might as well be Mons Goblin Raiders in that matchup.    I didn't expect Long to be a real part of the metagame with so many Thorns and Spheres around. 

CS can fight Long with post-board Thorns, etc, or even maindeck Thorns, but I think its just a losing battle.   You have weak matchups against too much  other stuff, like Fish and Goblins, to be playing with maindeck Spheres.

[Anusien]

To be fair, you went the wrong direction (4 Tops 1 Seal for example) to beat Long-like decks.  In your posted list you don't have much in the way of sideboard hate to fight the deck either.  CS has always been sort of vulnerable to Long, but what's to keep you from bringing in the same amount of disruption into CS (say, 4 Duress and then possibly Thoughtseizes) that you'd use in other decks?

[Smmenen]

Not exactly.   The last list I posted here was not the last list I was working with.   I went back down to two tops.  The answer to your question is not a simple one, but I'll answer it more fully later.

[M.Solymossy]

Steve: I played Drain Tendrils on Sunday at a Small Mox Tournament and I actually REALLY liked the Long matchup.  I maindecked Force and Duress, and Sideboarded Chalices as well as tinker  :{0} and it worked out quite nicely at foiling their plans.  I don't feel though that it is strong enough to run through an eight round tournament.  I'd like to know your opinion on Drain Tendrils strengths and weaknesses.

[Smmenen]

Haha!   Ironic question with hindsight! Congrats Soly on your top 8 with Drain Tendrils!

Now, to answer the questions I didn't want to answer before the Champs...

I had already figured out that the best answer to Pitch Long was to SB Spheres.   However, I didn't want to post a Control Slaver list here that did that, since I figured it might hurt my chances as a TPS player :X

Although our patented Super Meandeck Strategic Slaver (TM! (jk)) is perhaps the best slaver iterations ever, I still think Slaver has a uphill battle against Long.

Now the trick will be for Long to continue to position itself against hate and control aiming for it.  However, there is a tension between the Workshop decks that would prey on TPS/Pitch Long and the Control Slaver decks.   

I am not a big fan of the new metagame, since I prefer the Gush metagame to the Long/Slaver metagame, but I'm happy to roll with Long or Slaver until something else better comes along (if).

[M.Solymossy]

Steve: I played Drain Tendrils on Sunday at a Small Mox Tournament and I actually REALLY liked the Long matchup.  I maindecked Force and Duress, and Sideboarded Chalices as well as tinker  7/10 and it worked out quite nicely at foiling their plans.  I don't feel though that it is strong enough to run through an eight round tournament.  I'd like to know your opinion on Drain Tendrils strengths and weaknesses.

Man, I must say I DO feel it's strong enough to roll with through a 7 round tournament, though
Steve, thanks for the props! 

[Anusien]

SB Spheres have been considered before in the Long v Slaver matchup, and I think at the time it was felt that they just didn't do enough. What makes this different?

[Smmenen]

SB Spheres have been considered before in the Long v Slaver matchup, and I think at the time it was felt that they just didn't do enough. What makes this different?

What makes you say that they were felt to have not done enough?   

[Anusien]

SB Spheres have been considered before in the Long v Slaver matchup, and I think at the time it was felt that they just didn't do enough. What makes this different?

What makes you say that they were felt to have not done enough?   

It was a card I know I was working on at one point, and I'm fairly certain I suggested it to Rich several years ago.  It's one in a long line of CS cards that are only half the answer to Long.

[Smmenen]

If Sphere doesn’t do enough, nothing does enough.

Like the Grow game plan, Long’s strategic is specifically centered around resolving multiple spells per turn (hence, a ‘storm’ deck).   There is no category of card that more efficiently disrupts that game plan than Spheres, by making every spell cost more.   Certainly, other cards like Lab have the same objective, but Lab is not as efficient, nor does it punish Long players in quite the same way. 

Of course, Sphere by itself is not going to get the job done.  But the assumption is that you are using it in tandem with other cards.   Spheres also combo with Welders and Thirst and the whole notion of a blue deck with artifacts.

I’m certain that Slaver players in the past have tried it, although I am also certain that I almost never faced Spheres from Control Slaver players in the past, as many opted for alternative forms of disruption, like Blood Moon.   I think Slaver players would have gotten much further in past with Spheres for Grim Long rather than Blood Moon or Arcane Lab.   

I was very surprised to see that Slaver players in the month of July did not automatically default to Spheres SB (even some using Thorns).  For example, I saw that Jimmy top8ed at the ICBM open with Labs and no Spheres.   I was not about to correct them for what I saw as an obvious choice, particularly since I was audibling to Pitch Long and then TPS.  Even my teammate Brian was on Thorn over Spheres until we arrived at Nats.   

[Moxlotus]

Becker and I have long thought that the most effective card for Slaver against Long was Thorn/Sor.  We just didn't want to be telling anyone since we were playing or planning on playing combo.  Lab and Blood Moon are meh.  Cards like Crypt and Extirpate are easy to play around if you are half decent and know how to win without Will.

[Vegeta2711]

If Sphere doesn’t do enough, nothing does enough.

This. Exactly.