Six of One, Half Dozen of the Other

[Liam-K]

Back when pitch long came out and a person I tested a lot with had CS as a pet deck, 2ball going into his board was far and away the worst thing for when I pulled out long he ever did.  I thought this was accepted already.  If you're going to play CS and want tools for the Long match, this is what you should use.

[Smmenen]

I see all of these other folks have been filling MY BLOG with posts! How DARE you!

It’s interesting, the story this weekend is not Super Meandeck Strategic Slaver, although that is a story.  The story of the weekend is that the two apparent best decks in Vintage are Slaver and TPS/Pitch Long.

When we put that into a broader narrative, what does that mean?  It means that despite all of the hoopla, despite all of the praising and condemnation, the DCI action did nothing but rewind the clock back to 2006, sans Gifts.   

Restricting Brainstorm: Did nothing. 

Restricting Scroll: did everything.   

It’s almost a seamless thread.   

In 2006, the best decks were, in order,

1) Meandeck Gifts,

2) Pitch Long,

3) and Slaver. 

In 2007, Gifts was restricted, Gush was unrestricted.   Suddenly, GroAtog is the best deck.   Gush bond engine (Scroll, Gush, etc) is restricted, what comes out on top?   

Pitch Long and Slaver.   

There was no surprise.  There was no mystery.   It was almost inevitable.  It was almost as if it was written before hand.  It was almost like the hand of history reaching across restrictions and saying: this is how it shall be. 

Unlike last year, where GroAtog finished 1st and 2nd in a very diverse top 8, this year the top 8 was not as diverse.   The top 4 was monolithic Slaver and TPS/Pitch Long. 

I find the tableau of Vintage quite boring right now.   Although I enjoyed playing TPS, and nearly repeating this year (Grr Paul), the thing that is interesting about Vintage right now isn’t the decks, it’s the details.   It’s the intricacies of a Pitch Long mirror match, it's the tactics and counter-tactics.  It’s not the decks.   We’ve been here before.

Ichorid?  Been there, done that for well over two years now.   

TPS?  This thing has been around since the Trinisphere era, and earlier.

Control Slaver?  Perhaps the most boring thing to be at the top level of Vintage since Keeper.

Painter?  Neat, cute, but not quite good enough.  Also, you share too many cards with Control Slaver.

Tyrant Oath?  You were a lot more interesting when Gush was unrestricted.  You are now just a better version of previous Oath decks. 

Fish: oh. yay.  hoo rah

Workshop decks?   You look the same as you always have.  Nothing new to see here. 

Here’s the real question:

Assuming that Wizards doesn’t print a Trinisphere/Gifts Ungiven type card, does anyone have any reason to expect that TPS and Slaver won’t be the best two decks:

•   3 months from now?
•   6 months from now?
•   9 months from now?
•   12 months from now?

Now, I understand that people can build decks to beat these decks.  But I also understand that it’s not like people didn’t think that Slaver and Pitch Long/TPS weren’t the best decks going into the Vintage Champs.   There was no great metagame mystery. 

I’m all for innovation.  But I have to wonder if things could be a little bit more interesting than a redux of 2006 sans Gifts…

Although I likely can't go to the Vintage Champs next year (my sis is getting married), would I play TPS again?

Outlook: probably....

[Anusien]

Is CS actually one of the top decks, or is it simply a good enough deck played by good pilots with the right matchups?  Would the two guys who T4ed with Slaver have gotten there if they had played TPS instead?  Are there enough/any matchups where TPS is better?  My hunch is that TPS is just plain better in most cases than Slaver, but people are playing Slaver because of emotions instead of statistics.

[forests failed you]

I am not sure that is necessarily fair.  Control Slaver has a much better match up against decks that play with spheres and Null Rods than TPS does.  The way that I looked at it was that CS seemed to have a favorable match up against the entire field, with the exception of Dark Ritual decks--where I felt that it was under 50percent, but better than thirty percent game one.  So, I dedicated the vast majority of my sideboard to playing with cards that beat Dark Ritual in hopes that I would be better than fifty percent post board.  Jimmy said he went 4-1 v dark ritual, and I was 3-1 v Dark Ritual in the event. 

[Smmenen]

My last blog entry prompted some interesting replies on the Open forum.

Inspired by Brian's list, I thought I'd post a list that focuses on one skill: innovation.   

Here it is, the most INNOVATIVE players in Vintage.  Let me preface by saying that I simply do not follow closely enough to unequivocally establish this list.  So, if you make a case, I will be happy to adjust this list.   I am posting this to help highlight the work and effort of some members of the Vintage community.

1.  Albert Kyle (Meadbert). 

Although he was not the first player to play Ichorid in Vintage (every major team tried it when the dredge mechanic was printed), nor the first to top 8 with Ichorid at a major event (that would be me ), he is the first to innovate Manaless Ichorid, the shell of which Ichorid exists with today. 

He also came up with an innovative Turboland deck which he played at SCG Richmond.   He is always coming up with interesting (and often jank) combinations, which he posts all over the SCG forums.

2. Jeff Carpenter/Jeremiah Rudolph

Ummm.  Tyrant Oath.   That insane Time Vault deck.   

3.  Andy Probasco

Almost always comes up with a new deck.  Sometimes plays tired old deck, trying to relieve Belcher Gifts glory. 

4.  Mat Endress

Insane innovative, over many years.  Came up with GWS Oath.   Now found a way to make mono blue work again.    Mat almost always comes up with something cool and new. 

Any one else I should add?

[M.Solymossy]

Eric Becker had a big part in Pitchlong (which came back) as well as IT (twaun did well with it) Urbana, and Phil Shmidt's list that went 5-2, just barely missing Top8. 

[AngryPheldagrif]

In all fairness, to stroke my own cock, if you're really making a list of the most innovative then I should be far up there if not in the top 2 or 3. I've probably done more design work than most teams have over the years. I'm also not shy about posting them up for public use.

[M.Solymossy]

The problem with your decks Dan are that they're "Captain Obv".  Strategic Planning in Combo... duh!

[AngryPheldagrif]

The problem with your decks Dan are that they're "Captain Obv".  Strategic Planning in Combo... duh!

You mean like Gilded Claw? Or ICBM Oath? Or Twilight Gifts? Or Empty Gifts?

[M.Solymossy]

Ok, I really don't want to get into this, but Empty Gush was all TK, and A LOT of people were playing rituals in gifts before you.

[Moxlotus]

Needs more Peter O/Shockwave.

[Smmenen]

I consider Twilight Gifts to be a modification of Meandeck Gifts (and not necessarily an improvement).  Same, Empty Gush was basiically GAT - 4 Dryads, Wish, 1 Tog + 6 other cards. 

Gilded Claw is quite unique though, but I'm not sure it is substantially different enough from other workshop aggro decks historically.  And although IT was a really cool, innovative deck, that was years ago   Pitch Long was amazing though.   

My list is intended to include only the MOST innovative, that is, people who come up with entirely new concepts or radical redesigns of old concepts, and not every once in a while, but on a constant basis.   

[desolutionist]

vroman had a lot of juicy decks

The problem with your decks Dan are that they're "Captain Obv".  Strategic Planning in Combo... duh!

I wouldn't have ever tried such an awful card in any deck

[Smmenen]

Good catch on Vroman. 

[Matt]

I consider Twilight Gifts to be a modification of Meandeck Gifts (and not necessarily an improvement).  Same, Empty Gush was basiically GAT - 4 Dryads, Wish, 1 Tog + 6 other cards. 

I find this most hilarious, coming as it does from the man who added 4 Brainstorms to slaver and declared it a whole new deck.

[Anusien]

Good catch on Vroman. 

Is he still alive?  I thought you were commenting on current deck designers.

[Smmenen]

I consider Twilight Gifts to be a modification of Meandeck Gifts (and not necessarily an improvement).  Same, Empty Gush was basiically GAT - 4 Dryads, Wish, 1 Tog + 6 other cards. 

I find this most hilarious, coming as it does from the man who added 4 Brainstorms to slaver and declared it a whole new deck.

You mean strategic slaver? 

[ErkBek]

And although IT was a really cool, innovative deck, that was years ago   Pitch Long was amazing though.   

My list is intended to include only the MOST innovative, that is, people who come up with entirely new concepts or radical redesigns of old concepts, and not every once in a while, but on a constant basis.   

The big ones
IT
URBana Fish
Pitch Long
GWS Long (back in '06)
The Tropical Storm

All the others
Bazaar Storm
WU Tang Wizards
CounterTop Magus
BUG Fish - I'll post this when I get around to it.

When I took a break from Vintage to play in the PTQ season, I built Cheon's GP winning deck, Previous Level Blue.

I also was the first to post in public forums how good Storm Combo is post restriction.

[Tha Gunslinga]

I thought we weren't allowed to discuss who created what.  That seems like a good idea.

[desolutionist]

When I took a break from Vintage to play in the PTQ season, I built Cheon's GP winning deck, Previous Level Blue.

I know you did this one.  Props, seriously.

I also was the first to post in public forums how good Storm Combo is post restriction.

Yikes!  If that's worth anything at all, I get the credit for posting that one THREE days before you!

[Smmenen]

Notice any patterns?  I do...

2003 Vintage Champs:
Winner: Psychatog (Mana Drain deck)
Runner-Up: Mask-Naught

2004 Vintage Champs:
Winner: Control Slaver (Mana Drain deck)
Runner-Up: Workshop Aggro (Mishra’s Workshop deck)

2005 Vintage Champs:
Winner: Stax (Mishra’s Workshop deck)
Runner Up: Gifts Belcher (Mana Drain deck)

2006 Vintage Champs:
Winner: Meandeck Gifts (Mana Drain deck)
Runner-Up: Pitch Long (Dark Ritual deck)

2007 Vintage Champs:
Winner: GroAtog (Gush-bond deck)
Runner-Up: GroAtog (Gush-bond deck)

2008 Vintage Champs:
Winner: TPS/Pitch Long (Dark Ritual deck)
Runner-Up: Control Slaver (Mana Drain deck)

[Smmenen]

I hate people who come up with Magic decknames:

Quick N Toast

What the hell does "Quick" or "Toast" have to do with this 5c control deck:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgevent/gbnat08/welcome#10

[Liam-K]

Seems like a crack about cereal archetype names.  I'm figuring Quick is intended to mean the chocolate milk mix.

[desolutionist]

Steve, what are your thoughts on the current b&r list?  Can Gifts ever come off?

[Smmenen]

Steve, what are your thoughts on the current b&r list?  Can Gifts ever come off?

Yes.   It may need to be re-restricted, but I don't currently see Gifts problematic.   I mean, are you more afraid of Slaver or TPS if they could run more than 1 Gifts?  TPS might run 2.   Slaver can't afford, imo, to run 4 Gifts because Slaver's weakness is its early game.   Shay claims he'd run 4, but I bet most Gifts decks (with the restriction of Scroll) would end up running 2 Gifts.   However, if TPS and Slaver and other decks started running 3 or 4 Gifts, then I think it should be restricted. 

Scroll was the real problem.    Scroll should have been restricted, not Gifts. 

I am strongly against the restriction of both Flash and Gush.  With Brainstorm and Merchant Scroll AND Ponder restricted, restricting Gush is asinine.  The card is worthless with Scroll and Brainstorm restricted.  Same with Flash. 

[Vegeta2711]

I hate people who come up with Magic decknames:

Quick N Toast

What the FUCK does "Quick" or "Toast" have to do with this 5c control deck:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgevent/gbnat08/welcome#10

The person who came up with that name should be taken into the street and pummeled.  I'd do it myself if I knew who it was.

“Quick ‘n Toast” deck, named after a convenience store chain and created by Manuel Bucher of Switzerland.

There you go. Also I recommend you only go after Bucher after beating down the people who named Solidarity or any other Legacy decks. Or even Brassman, who has an awesome deck name in Crime and Punishment, but means nothing. ;o

[vroman]

Good catch on Vroman. 

Is he still alive?  I thought you were commenting on current deck designers.

alive, employed, engaged.

[Smmenen]

I hate people who come up with Magic decknames:

Quick N Toast

What the FUCK does "Quick" or "Toast" have to do with this 5c control deck:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgevent/gbnat08/welcome#10

The person who came up with that name should be taken into the street and pummeled.  I'd do it myself if I knew who it was.

“Quick ‘n Toast” deck, named after a convenience store chain and created by Manuel Bucher of Switzerland.

There you go. Also I recommend you only go after Bucher after beating down the people who named Solidarity or any other Legacy decks. Or even Brassman, who has an awesome deck name in Crime and Punishment, but means nothing. ;o

Unfortunately, absurdly bad deck names are nothing new in Magic.   Legacy does stand out as a format with particularly heinous decknames, but it is not limited to Legacy.   Cereal names like Pebbles and Trix are part of magic history.

[TheBrassMan]

Or even Brassman, who has an awesome deck name in Crime and Punishment, but means nothing. ;o

Hey now, the Crime part clearly refers Raven's Crime, and Punishment refers to the horrible tournament losses you suffer should you decide to play it. 

alive, employed, engaged.

Hey!! Congrats!! Post wedding pix plz.

[Mr. Nightmare]

I hate people who come up with Magic decknames:

Quick N Toast

What the FUCK does "Quick" or "Toast" have to do with this 5c control deck:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgevent/gbnat08/welcome#10

The person who came up with that name should be taken into the street and pummeled.  I'd do it myself if I knew who it was.

“Quick ‘n Toast” deck, named after a convenience store chain and created by Manuel Bucher of Switzerland.

There you go. Also I recommend you only go after Bucher after beating down the people who named Solidarity or any other Legacy decks. Or even Brassman, who has an awesome deck name in Crime and Punishment, but means nothing. ;o

Unfortunately, absurdly bad deck names are nothing new in Magic.   Legacy does stand out as a format with particularly heinous decknames, but it is not limited to Legacy.   Cereal names like Pebbles and Trix are part of magic history.

Most of the decks that are actually good have fairly intuitive deck names.  In fact, looking at The Source's DTB forum, it's pretty easy to decipher what all of those decks are.  Even in the "established" decks forum, the majority of the decks which do not suck are appropriately named.  Compared to "Hippies use the side door," "WCK's New Wave," and "Booby" from the GB Nats, Legacy names are normal.  Then again, I think the history of this game has shown that given the opportunity, players would rather name their deck with some stupid in-joke or self reference than actually make an intuitive name.  See: The Mean Deck.