B/G Sui Black-ish Deck

[SyntheticAngel]

My girlfriend started to play Magic about two years ago, and has only been playing Standard. Now, however she really wants to play Vintage because that's what I play primarily and she wants to play at tournaments with Bob, Scott, Lou, Travis, Heather, and myself. So I was thinking of a decent deck for her to play for her first Vintage tournament. Scott Limoges and I were discussing B/G Tarmogoyf Bob stuff. I was looking for suggestions on card choices for the deck and the sideboard:

Mana Sources: 20

1x Black Lotus
1x Lotus Petal
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Jet
1x Strip Mine
4x Wasteland
4x Bayou
1x Polluted Delta
2x Bloodstained Mire
2x Windswept Heath
1x Forest
1x Swamp

Creatures: 19

4x Tarmogoyf
4x Dark Confidant
4x Skyshroud Elite (Not sure about this guy...)
4x Yixlid Jailer
3x Phyrexian Negator or Hypnotic Specter

Spells: 21

4x Duress
4x Hymn To Tourach
3x Null Rod
3x Chalice of the Void
2x Sudden Death
3x Root Maze
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Vampiric Tutor

Sideboard:

2x Sudden Death
2x Pithing Needle
3x Oxidize
4x Leyline of the Void (Or 3x Tormod's Crypt)
4?

This is the proposed deck right now. I would like to discuss different cards that could go in this deck. Thank you very much.

Brennen Cook
SyntheticAngel

[SyntheticAngel]

This just in maybe I should cut the Skyshroud Elites for Wild Mongrels just another thought to consider.

[MirariKnight]

Wild Mongrel is a good idea as it has good synergy with Goyf and Confidant. I another option is Zombie Infestation which would fill a similar role to the Mongrel, but probably would put you in black solidly enough to use Dark Ritual. Another card that I think would be solid in this deck would be Bazaarr of Baghdad, it has nice synergy with Tarmogoyf and provides so more drawing/card filtering. I probably wouldn't play 4 of them, but it might be worth testing. I also think that Sudden Death is really not very useful (I guess it kills Dryads and Togs) but those slots would probably be better used for something else.

[SyntheticAngel]

Wild Mongrel is a good idea as it has good synergy with Goyf and Confidant. I another option is Zombie Infestation which would fill a similar role to the Mongrel, but probably would put you in black solidly enough to use Dark Ritual. Another card that I think would be solid in this deck would be Bazaarr of Baghdad, it has nice synergy with Tarmogoyf and provides so more drawing/card filtering. I probably wouldn't play 4 of them, but it might be worth testing. I also think that Sudden Death is really not very useful (I guess it kills Dryads and Togs) but those slots would probably be better used for something else.

That's the reason I have them in there is to kill Togs and Dryads which I am sure it will see a lot of. What would you suggest in their place?

[Nydaeli]

I'd run Smother instead of Sudden Death.  Three mana is a lot to pay, and Smother deals with most of what you'd want to gun for anyway.

Experiment with Hidden Gibbons and/or Hidden Herd.  They're great against the majority of good decks.

Demonic Consultation would be great with essentially no one-ofs.

[senpai]

life from the loam could strengthen mana denial and helps to boost mongrel, just my 2 cents

[BC]

Eternal Witness is worth looking at for any green creature-based deck.  As far a battle-worthiness goes for matching up with Togs and Dryads, I am a big believer in Troll Ascetic.  The problem with both of those creatures, however, is the double green.

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

Just another suggestion: Imo Cabal Therapy is insanely good in the current meta. The only problem I see with it is that your girlfriend probably won't name the right things when shooting blind if she hasn't played the format before...
Oh, and one other thing: If you want her to really like the format, give her a deck that definitly works for her first tournament. So either test the hell out of this or let her start of with some form of established archetype. Nothing sucks more than loosing because your deck crumbles on you, and she'd just remember "Vintage tournament sucked". Especially if you don't get to do ridiculous things (=>fun) in the games the deck actually does work.

[dawgie]

Root Maze and Fetchlands are anti-synergistic. Its either you take out the Root Mazes or make some Fetchlands to Land Grants. But Land Grant is not too good for my taste. I would then remove Root Mazes but still not sure of what to place. Your meta is different in our local meta.

Just my .02 cents.

[BigBarn]

I would definitely play 2-3 more land in here.  You especially don't want her losing to mana-screw, but besides that you have 20 cc and 5 cc spells.  I agree with the Root Maze/Fetch land issue as well.

[Thegreatgonzo]

I honestly think Root maze and Chalices are strong first turn play, so you should go for 4 of them. Cut some Skyshroud elites, Bazaars and tropical islands don't care about a 2/3 anyway

About doing funny things : I tried to explain vintage to newbies, and there's something I learned : Even if a monster like Dredge or Belcher is more mechanical to play (as opposed to tempo/hate decks that ask for an intimate knowledge of the format in order to be really efficient), players from other formats are more familiar with the "Play land, tap for creature or spell, attack" kind of play. In other words, they want to play the game they're used to. Even if they don't play fish like Fenstein would, they will be more familiar with the mechanics of the game, than with, say, grim long. (That's a gross summary, but well, you get the point)

That's a false illusion, because, in order to play non interactive decks, you just have to know your deck. In order to play a hate deck, you have to know every decks, and to be able to recognize them pretty fast.

I guess that's up to you (and her^^), but anyway, I bet she'll have more fun  with something familiar, so I don't think that a deck able to do "funny things" (read : who needs to do funny things) is the right choice.

Good luck to both of you anyway, and have fun!

[SyntheticAngel]

Thank you all for your input I really appreciate all your criticism. I think I will switch her to some sort of Sligh build because that is what she is used to in Type 2 and good point about hate decks being about knowing what other people are playing. I would really hate for her first Vintage tournament to be an unpleasent experience for her, especially since it is the only format that I play. She and I have been playtesting, and I have been schooling her on the correct card to take with Duress and the importance of certain cards against certain decks (chalice against combo) or (Sphere of Resistance against GAT) She is taking to the concept of the deck well. I am still worried about Cabal Therapy though... thinking about the best way to get her used to the card. I am going to tell her that if she sees dual lands with blue in them that Force of Will, Ancestral Recal, Merchant Scroll, and other things. I think for this tournament she will have to stick with this hate deck so I hope she doesn't hate it. Tommorow I don't have time to revamp her deck because I have to work the PTQ and I have to work FNM tonight. Thank you for all your advice and feel free to keep discussing this to help me build her deck. I will post the list after I win the Time Walk tournament.

Brennen

[Luecifer]

i have independantly (with much help from desolutionist and others) designed a similar version of this deck, and after recent testing have found root maze to be a very solid turn 1 play. while yes, it does make your fetches less effective, in a deck like this which has a curve top out at 2-3, it is very easy to work around the slow play of fetches, while that will hurt many other decks which rely on having access to their mana right away. a root maze followed by either a chalice for 0 or a null rod is a devistating play against many decks, and can slow them down by several turns, allowing the b/g player to develop enough of an advantage to win the game.

[Guli]

hehe, ive like created every possible color of aggro. My B/G versions looks similar however there are some important pointers i would like to give.

First of all the creature base is very important. You can't just add some creatures that are 'hot' or were you have doubts.  Dark Confidant is obvious. No reason to discuss it its a black aggro deck. Sui black -ish you said. So why would you splash green. I think that is the most important question when creating an aggro, you always have a main color and then splash in a 2nd or maybe even a 3th color. What can green offer?
Green has got some cheap fatties that could serve as a clock. Tarm and Mongrel or even the Mongoose wich can become a nasty problem for the opponent IF you can deliver good early disruption. I think that is the way to go. Black is a master of disruption and green brings in the muscles USING that disruption thats in the grave;
Tarm or Mongoose
However there is a card that is even more important than aggro green offers. Root Maze... actually root maze is hot right now. So i would not even THINK about not adding it. And the reason is Gush. When you are using colors like black and green u have to use game changing cards like root maze to stand a chance.
There is a problem with Tarm tho. You don't want to remove cards from graves. So Leyline is not really interesting then. This means you are basically sitting ducks turn 0-1 when ur opponent is on the draw. And looking at the format you need all the disruption u need starting from turn 0. So before you decide to use some cards you should realize you have to accept that you can't do anything to a turn 1 kill. One the draw it doesn't look that bad. Duress or Root are both bomb right now.
I would simply be very hard on the yourself and simply start from scratch with the following cards

4 Leyline of the void (ichorid,flash,stax,Will,....)
4 Root Maze (GaT, any fetch lands, simply game slowing so any form of combo/acceleration)
4 Duress
4 Wasteland (with root maze its looks anti syn but it's not, you can actually take out fetchlands when u are first with the waste ^_^)
1 Strip Mine

4 Dark Confidant

4 Bayou
4 Dark Ritual
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox jet
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana crypt

I want to add another card to the discussion, Choke. With Root Maze it shuts down blue based decks. Yea this is turning into a HATE deck
Simply think about a turn 1 maze + lotus/crypt/ring followed by Choke. It is not only scary for flash,gat,gifts,cs,U-based fish,Mono blue,.... it simply wins the game.

+4 Choke

Now a lot 4-offs and mostly non cumulative. So you really need filtering and improvement of your hand. Somebody already mentioned bazaar. I find that a good idea. AND at the same time you can use flashback/Threshold/Madness abilities making bazaar multi-functional.

I also think it is a good idea to use ESG to play those nasty bombs faster.

Another thing is what if you are not facing a blue deck. Well what is out there right now that is blue-less??
Goblins, Sui-Black?... help me out here. So it would be wise to add creature removal i guess.. or just cast more and bigger ones lol Maybe Phyrexian Negator can do multiple things here aswell.

-Offer a clock
-Use the second maze that is useles for sac or a leyline that isn't really doing anything anymore this goes for all cards kinda, some kinde raw filter system :p
-its rituable

My list right now testing it sometimes on mws

// Lands
    4  Bayou
    3  Bloodstained Mire
    4  Swamp
    3  Bazaar of Baghdad
    1  Strip Mine
    4  Wasteland

// Creatures
    3  Basking Rootwalla
    3  Nimble Mongoose
    3  Phyrexian Negator
    4  Dark Confidant

// Spells
    1  Mox Emerald
    4  Choke
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Lotus Petal
    1  Sol Ring
    1  Mana Crypt
    2  Crippling Fatigue (instead of those smother and sudden deaths)
    4  Leyline of the Void
    1  Black Lotus
    4  Dark Ritual
    4  Duress
    4  Root Maze

[Valrauka]

I have been working on this version for a littelwhile now. It is bit different becasue it is more disruptive and less agressive but I thought I would post it becuase it fits near the same catagory

    Mana sources
4 Bayou
4 fetch
4 waste
3 ghost quarters
3 swamp
forest
treetop village
mox jet
mox emerald
black lotus
mana crypt

    Creatures
3 Dark Confidant
2 Withered Wretch
1 Yixlid Jailer
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Spiritmonger

    Spells
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Root maze
2 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Pernicious Deed
Darkblast
Engineered Explosives
3 Living Wish
Demonic Tutor
Vampiric Tutor

    Sideboard
Dark Confidant
Withered Wretch
Yixlid Jailer
Spirit Monger
Thrashing Wumpus
Strip Mine
Maze of Ith
2 Mesmeric Fiend
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Leyline of the Void

This deck has alot of early disruption with duress, therapy, rootmaze, darkblast, jailer, ee and crypt to counter first and second turn craziness

It also has good mana denial with the ability to lock with crucible and the strip mine is in the side board so it can be tutored for with living wish.

 As for living wish itself, it can get yixlid jailer against ichorid, withered wretch against any graveyard abuse, Thrashing wumpus against aggro/EtW, Maze of ith against DSC/Oath creatures, Stripmine for the lock. Also in circumstances where you dont need any tech peices you can use it to get spirit monger or bob

[asi]

Strip Mine has three advantages over Stone Rain: being free, having more than one function (taps for mana) and not being counterable. I don't know whether it should be in the Sideboard; when you need it, you can also cast DT/Vampiric to get it, and those two are less likely being countered than Living Wish.

I'm no vintage expert, but Spiritmonger looks worse than the forth Confidant.

[Valrauka]

Strip Mine has three advantages over Stone Rain: being free, having more than one function (taps for mana) and not being counterable. I don't know whether it should be in the Sideboard; when you need it, you can also cast DT/Vampiric to get it, and those two are less likely being countered than Living Wish.

I'm no vintage expert, but Spiritmonger looks worse than the forth Confidant.

Stone rain? who mentioned that. And strip mine is in the board so it can be gotten with living wish and if you have a crucible in play most people are going to counter a DT/VT anyways and if you dont have the crucible in play most people probably wont think a huge about about a living wish cause they will think they can counter whatever i bring in assuming it is a creautre. Also maindeck there are 7 more mana denial cards (wasteland and ghost quarters) so i dont think having the strip in the side board is that huge of an issue. And the fourth confidant is there but hes just in the sideboard so he can be obtained by living wish, therefore i have 3 maindeck and 3 living wishes maindeck so technically i have 6 chances to draw one. Spiritmonger is there as a one of in the deck because against certain matchups tarmogoyf wont be getting that big and spirit monger will add a clock so you opponent has to deal with it fast or they lose.

[zeus-online]

Careful now, you're assuming that your opponent makes a mistake and chose not to counter living wish...If i where playing this deck, i'd rather not count on my opponent to hand me the game.

/Zeus

[asi]

Strip Mine has three advantages over Stone Rain: being free, having more than one function (taps for mana) and not being counterable. I don't know whether it should be in the Sideboard; when you need it, you can also cast DT/Vampiric to get it, and those two are less likely being countered than Living Wish.

I'm no vintage expert, but Spiritmonger looks worse than the forth Confidant.

Stone rain? who mentioned that. And strip mine is in the board so it can be gotten with living wish and if you have a crucible in play most people are going to counter a DT/VT anyways and if you dont have the crucible in play most people probably wont think a huge about about a living wish cause they will think they can counter whatever i bring in assuming it is a creautre. Also maindeck there are 7 more mana denial cards (wasteland and ghost quarters) so i dont think having the strip in the side board is that huge of an issue. And the fourth confidant is there but hes just in the sideboard so he can be obtained by living wish, therefore i have 3 maindeck and 3 living wishes maindeck so technically i have 6 chances to draw one. Spiritmonger is there as a one of in the deck because against certain matchups tarmogoyf wont be getting that big and spirit monger will add a clock so you opponent has to deal with it fast or they lose.

The comparision with Stone Rain was supposed to show what makes Strip Mine uber-good what other landdestruction spells don't have: Uncounterability, no mana cost, being an additional landdrop if needed [well, ok, I forgot synergy with Crucible]. Living Wish takes much of that away, which might be a mistake in my opinion.

Also, against an unknown deck, I would rather counter Living Wish than Demonic Tutor.

[defector]

Just for the record, this is a dead end as far as design goes. These along with the Pernicous deed and straight sui decks were beat to death around 2000. That being said, lets get down to work:)

The Heart of this deck is Aggro-Control.

Threat Density: The list needs about 16 solid beats. The lack of draw promotes a solid redundancy in design.

Tarmogoyf looks awful to me, but to each their own.

One of the lists that was common back when the Sui debate was alive looked like this:

Phyrexian Negator X4
Withered Wretch X4
Hypnotic Spector X4
Flesh Reaver X4
Nantuko Shade X4

Shade needs a mono B base and Flesh Reaver is just tough. I would run Confidants over Reavers. So, that gives you roughly 16 to swing and disrupt with. Withered Wretch is more important these days than Hypnotic Spector. Wretch can answer Flash and Ichorid, getting double duty is important for these lists.

Disruption-

This is critical and decks that follow this path need the highest possible amount. Look up some old oshawa stompy decks to get some ideas. My advice is no less than 4 of the following: Root Maze, Null Rod, Wasteland, Chalice of the Void. Stripmine is an auto inclusion. Another fundamental flaw in aggro control decks of this nature is that they can't abuse the restricted list the way that control and combo decks can. That being as it is, use all that you can.

Well, thats my advice. Best of luck!

defector

[Lordomor]

I was just in a tounry running Suicide Black/Blue. I had been thinking long and hard about running green over blue though, and I think you've missed some of the best cards you could be running, tbh.

Berserk is the best card green has to make this deck insane. One green to double damage and give trample? If you were running negator, that would be half their life in one creature, though turmagyof could come close to that. I would really, really, suggest negator over hippie. I almost shit a brick when I saw 0 dark rituals, they'd up your speed so much and I highly suggest them. As said before, Smother is pretty much amazing, I had no regrets about running 4 sideboard, it was very handy against other aggro, GAT, even artifacts (for welder/metalworker).

Hope this helped.

[SyntheticAngel]

Thanks to all for your help. Your ideas have really got me thinking about different directions to go with this deck. Berserk seems really excellent too. The current build is looking like this:

1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Jet
1x Black Lotus

4x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
2x Treetop Village
4x Bayou
2x Bazaar of Baghdad
3x Forest
3x Swamp

4x Basking Rootwalla
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Nimble Mongoose
2x Phyrexian Negator

4x Root Maze
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Sphere of Resistance
3x Dark Ritual
4x Duress
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Vampiric Tutor

This is the list I have recently come up with keep commenting I haven't thought of a board yet, but it will contain Berserks.

Brennen

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

I somehow like the way that latest list looks. With Bazaars and all the strip-effects, there should be a single Life from the Loam to tutor for, though.

Cabal Therapy only got better now that there are Bazaars, especially thanks to all the 1-drops. If your creature base stays like that, I'd probably cut the Rituals. They're a lot less impressive with only ten cards to accelerate into. If you want to speed up the Sphere of Resistances, something like Ancient Tomb or City of Traitors might even be better.

[SyntheticAngel]

I somehow like the way that latest list looks. With Bazaars and all the strip-effects, there should be a single Life from the Loam to tutor for, though.

Cabal Therapy only got better now that there are Bazaars, especially thanks to all the 1-drops. If your creature base stays like that, I'd probably cut the Rituals. They're a lot less impressive with only ten cards to accelerate into. If you want to speed up the Sphere of Resistances, something like Ancient Tomb or City of Traitors might even be better.

Life From the Loam does seem kind of hott for keeping mana decks off thier mana even more so what with Sphere of Resistance and Root Maze. Also my girlfriend does love this deck she only lost two of her rounds which was against Flash and the guy went turn one both games they played so that wasn't very fun for her, and her other match was against a guy playing a jank deck that used Kavu Predator and your opponent gains life cards, and what happened was she is new so she doesn't know all of the procedures for calling judges and not letting her opponent take things back. Her opponent played some gain life spell while Kavu Predator was out and she attempted to Sudden Death it and he told her that she couldn't do that, and lost the game because of it. Since then I have been teaching her to not listen to her opponent because he probably doesn't have your best interest in mind, and to not let them take things back, but overall she loves the deck!

[Scott_Limoges]

This is the list I would run:

4 ESG
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Jet
1x Black Lotus

4x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
4x BG shock land
4x Bayou
3x Bazaar of Baghdad
1x Forest
1x Swamp

4x Jungle Lion
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Carnophage

4x Root Maze
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Sphere of Resistance
4x Duress
2x Cabal Therapy

3x smother

1x Vampiric Tutor

ESG makes the deck tick rasing it's fundimental turn to the vintage average (it also beats).  Also, Smother seems good in the current metagame.  I've always liked cheap creatures instead of expensive phatties (and 3 mana is expensive with sphere of resistance).

[SyntheticAngel]

This is the list I would run:

4 ESG
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Jet
1x Black Lotus

4x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
4x BG shock land
4x Bayou
3x Bazaar of Baghdad
1x Forest
1x Swamp

4x Jungle Lion
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Carnophage

4x Root Maze
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Sphere of Resistance
4x Duress
2x Cabal Therapy

3x smother

1x Vampiric Tutor

ESG makes the deck tick rasing it's fundimental turn to the vintage average (it also beats).  Also, Smother seems good in the current metagame.  I've always liked cheap creatures instead of expensive phatties (and 3 mana is expensive with sphere of resistance).

Scott I must say I love the deck, and so does Misty, but I really don't like Jungle Lion. Nimble Mongoose is so much better because it can't be targeted and it will most likely be 3/3 because of Bazaar, and the natural order of things going to the graveyard. I thought you wanted Street Wraith in this deck? Remember we were talking about it during the tournament last time.

[Scott_Limoges]

Good memory, Street Wraith.  So...

4 ESG
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Jet
1x Black Lotus

4x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
4x BG shock land
4x Bayou
3x Bazaar of Baghdad
1x Forest

4x Jungle Lion
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf

4x Street Wraith

4x Root Maze
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Sphere of Resistance
4x Duress
4x Leyline of the Void

2x smother

1x Vampiric Tutor

Leyline is somewhat narrow these days but free disruption that can be Bazaar'd away.  Street Wraith is great in here.  Nimble Mongoose is ok compared to Jungle Lion and they probably deal equal damage over the course of a game (untargetable really doesn't mean much on a vanilla 1/1 or 3/3).  Another cheap creature seems in order but then again street wraith might be enough.

[Methuselahn]

I threw together your list Scott and played a few quick games on MWS.  Some of the things I noticed right away are Bob doesn't like to see 4 leyline and 4 Street Wraith.   I'm not sure about them entirely.  Also, 4 Root Maze and 4 Chalice is almost too redundant.  I'd cut down on 2 SW and maybe a Chalice, since it's not as good as it once was, plus, it's really only good on the play and for zero in the deck.

[SyntheticAngel]

I threw together your list Scott and played a few quick games on MWS.  Some of the things I noticed right away are Bob doesn't like to see 4 leyline and 4 Street Wraith.   I'm not sure about them entirely.  Also, 4 Root Maze and 4 Chalice is almost too redundant.  I'd cut down on 2 SW and maybe a Chalice, since it's not as good as it once was, plus, it's really only good on the play and for zero in the deck.

Flipping Street Wraith is bitch, and I still like Nimble Mongoose a lot. Jungle Lion can't block which sucks against some decks can't block Dryad, Tog, Goyf, Slivers. I really don't like Leyline main at all. I do understand you can Bazaar it away, but you totally want to draw something relevant rather than drawing something to pitch to Bazaar.