Banned/Restricted List Discussion

[Smmenen]

First on brainstorm.  What style of decks are you referring to?  It doesn't just show up in tier 1 decks.  Brainstorm helps to make tier 2 decks and lower playable.  Smenenen said that decks like grim or pitch long are not playable without brainstorm... what about fish?!   The archtype as a whole wouldn't be even remotely a contender without brainstorm.  You'd just have a couple little contenders that couldn't stand up over 7-8 rounds because they'd crumble to the more powerful decks.  Brainstorm let's fish play on that level.

Dave, I'm not sure that's actually true.

Fish became really, really, really good in vintage at a time when all of the major fish players insisted on not playing Brainstorm.   

Look at the Fish deck that Marc Perez built that put Fish on the map in 2004: http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/7145.html

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/feature/245

Look at the Fish deck that top8ed that year at the Vintage Champs: http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/7968.html

Now, Look at the fish deck that top8ed at Gencon last year:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgevent/vintage06/welcome

No Brainstorm

Urbana Fish has no Brainstorms as created last year: http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=20341
And Becker won a ton of Moxen last year. 

And with the advent of UW Fish, the original lists by Zheng and others did not run Brainstorm.

In fact, with the very small exception of Jacob Orlove's late Worse than Fish, no Fish player ran Brainstorm until you.  When I did a search of Fish decks performing in the last year, unfortunately, basically no name came up besides Dave Feinstein. 

Fish is the one deck, with Stax, that can survive without Brainstorm.   In fact, I think if Brainstorm were restricted, Fish would become very, very good.    Presumptive tier 1, actually.   

[desolutionist]

Rather than Flash, I think Pact of Negation and Summoner's Pact should be restricted.  Restricting Flash will only solve the problem temporarily until some other ridiculous combo enabler is printed/discovered.  If either of the Pacts are ever used as a 4-of, it isn't for something fair anyway.

[Liam-K]

I'm on board with Purple Hat, he seems to have been saying what I was trying to say more clearly.

A format with 1 Brainstorm is not a format without 10-15 1-of's.  Instead, it is a format that fails to draw what it needs, a lot.  It is also a format that retains bomby nutz draws.  The nuts happen less but stick more.  Your draw step just plain fails you in an even position more.  You can't find your even-more-limited-slot-wise disruption plan more.  Your hand won't let you play the correct role more.

This forces decks to be less versatile, diminishing their playskill cap.  It also creates a higher number of unfun games by increasing the odds your less consistent deck provides you with the tools you need to stay in the game.

Remember that just because your deck can't do what you want it to do nearly as much, broken cards will still come off the top and win games.  It'll just happen proportionally more through lucksackery than good piloting, and meet adequate disruption proportionally more through lucksackery than good piloting.



Additionally, while I'm still not advocating any restrictions right now, I don't feel restricting GAT because it is very strong is correct.  Some decks are better than others.  If you feel GAT (or merchant scroll) makes the format unplayable that's one thing, but if you feel you need to play a tier 1 deck to not be at a disadvantage that is very reasonable, especially when 1.5 decks have worse, but not heartbreaking odds.

If I were to ask for any b/r changes it would probably be Flash.  The deck produces games I don't enjoy and that's that.  I could spout off about playskill cap, interactivity, and power level, but I'm not sure any of those arguments are valid.  I like the Trinisphere comparison.  Too many games involving Flash suck.

[SpencerForHire]

At the same time wouldn't good players adjust their decks to run more 4-ofs in an attempt to bring consistency back to their decks?  These seems like the logical way to adjust their deck in such a situation.

Don't get me wrong, I don't know if I feel Brainstorm needs the axe, I'm just saying that if inconsistency is the problem due to Brainstorm, then you are more likely to just see decks evolve to a point where that isn't true.

The fault most people have within their arguments is assuming the current deck with close to identical builds would be played with Brainstorm being restricted.  In my opinion, it would be a bigger shift over the entirety of deck construction to remake the wheel as it were.

[Liam-K]

That would be hard to argue, since most restricted cards are capable of winning games on their own.  You certainly wouldn't cut any of the tutors, since suddenly it's even harder to get what you want, that leaves what, Time Walk?  No one's going to cut Ancestral and Yawgwill to fit in 4x fair card.

edit: though I suppose decks that already run all 4-of's get a hell of a boost.  Problem being they're all hate decks gunning for the supertype the restriction neuters.  It might make Stax a beast, I don't know.

[nataz]

Wow, I went to post, and steve said exactly what I was going to say - go go preview button. So yea, on brainstorm and fish - what steve said.

I'd also like to be clear on one of my points. My main disagreement is with looking to hit flash/ichorid/whatever while at the same time leaving GAT and Brainstorm untouched. Sure I'd like to let the format settle on its own (or at least be given more time to settle), but option 2 for me is definatly NOT to let GAT roam free while neutering its largest direct competition.

[Dxfiler]

Dave, I'm not sure that's actually true.

Fish became really, really, really good in vintage at a time when all of the major fish players insisted on not playing Brainstorm.   

Look at the Fish deck that Marc Perez built that put Fish on the map in 2004: http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/7145.html

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/feature/245

Look at the Fish deck that top8ed that year at the Vintage Champs: http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/7968.html

Now, Look at the fish deck that top8ed at Gencon last year:
http://www.wizards.com/de

fault.asp?x=mtgevent/vintage06/welcome

No Brainstorm

Urbana Fish has no Brainstorms as created last year: http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=20341
And Becker won a ton of Moxen last year. 

And with the advent of UW Fish, the original lists by Zheng and others did not run Brainstorm.

In fact, with the very small exception of Jacob Orlove's late Worse than Fish, no Fish player ran Brainstorm until you.  When I did a search of Fish decks performing in the last year, unfortunately, basically no name came up besides Dave Feinstein. 

Fish is the one deck, with Stax, that can survive without Brainstorm.   In fact, I think if Brainstorm were restricted, Fish would become very, very good.    Presumptive tier 1, actually.   

Steve... every example you listed was in a world where Gush was still restricted and flash didn't exist.

Welcome to 2007 :p

There's no way, just absolutely no way the deck would be at or near tier 1 in this metagame without brainstorm.  If you restrict just brainstorm and scroll/gush/flash remain untouched, fish basically falls right off the map as far as a competitive archtype.  It's barely hanging on as a contender right now. 

Could the deck still exist without brainstorm?  Sure... but strictly as niche choice, as I already mentioned.  The only deck you listed above in all of those fish links that could still be viable in this current 2007 metagame would be URBana, and I honestly don't think it would be any higher than middle tier 2 (assuming the rest of the B&R list stayed the same).  Almost every other deck you listed as an example is rod based (and more than 2 years old) and is simply outmoded for this metagame.  Besides URBana, the most recent fish deck you listed was Nicolo's UWB vial deck... which is pretty much dead right now.  UWB fish is in its most competitive form at the moment with brainstorm.  No contest.

URBana clearly has the best shot to do well in this environment of the brainstorm-less fish decks you listed...
what has it done since gush and flash have been introduced in the format?  How many moxes has it won since?  How are we to believe the deck would do any better if brainstorm were restricted if it isn't performing now?

Brainstorm just isn't the problem card here.  If you want to severely hurt archtypes already suffering in this meta such as long and fish then go ahead and nuke it, but it's just not the card to go after.  It's a great card, but it's not format warping.

- Dave Feinstein

[nataz]

The argument isn't so much that Fish would be weaker with or without brainstorm, but rather that Flash and Gat would not exist at all - or at least no where near their current power levels. No "super-decks" means that fish, even without brainstorm, can suddenly be a top choice again.

[Dxfiler]

Flash and Gush would most certainly still exist without Brainstorm.  Would they be a full level above everything else as they are now?  Probably not.  But they would still both be very strong decks while alot of other decks would suddenly become much weaker.  It's not like their aren't a host of 1 cc U cantrips that could easily take the spot of brainstorm in either of those decks.

Portent, Serum Visions, Peek and Mental Note are all fine candidates to replace brainstorm and keep both of the above decks still strong.  None of those cards are as good as brainstorm by a mile, but to think that flash or gush would suddenly play fair with all the other decks just because brainstorm would be restricted seems faulty logic... because alot of the decks trying to combat flash and gat also use brainstorm.

Restricting brainstorm would empower Ichorid and Stax for sure, but what happens to bomberman or scroll tendrils variants?  Can anyone tell me with a straight face that those decks would become more competitive without brainstorm?  Steve himself said long variants would pretty much die without brainstorm.  While I don't think bomberman would die, it would become severely weakened for sure.  Those decks aren't the only ones either.

So far the decks that I believe would get weaker without brainstorm are bomberman, most fish, long and scroll tendril variants... and this is just off the top of my head.  The list has to keep going.  GAT and Flash still have the scroll engine to work off, and GAT has the gush engine on top of that.  Neither of those decks would suddenly play fair because many of the decks combating them relied on brainstorm to stay in the fight.

Bottom line: If you nuke brainstorm the poor get poorer and scroll decks still remain relatively strong.

- Dave Feinstein
 

[nataz]

Hi Dave.

Portent, Serum Visions, Peek and Mental Note are all fine candidates to replace brainstorm

I disagree across the board. Brainstorms effect on mana bases and early game card selection can not be replicated by the above cards. Therefore decks that play less 1-ofs, and more mana (stax, classic blue control, ichorid, aggro, and fish) should have a greater benifit from the rest. of brainstorm.

That being said, we may have to agree to disagree.

[Vegeta2711]

I'm on board with Purple Hat, he seems to have been saying what I was trying to say more clearly.

A format with 1 Brainstorm is not a format without 10-15 1-of's.  Instead, it is a format that fails to draw what it needs, a lot.  It is also a format that retains bomby nutz draws.  The nuts happen less but stick more.  Your draw step just plain fails you in an even position more.  You can't find your even-more-limited-slot-wise disruption plan more.  Your hand won't let you play the correct role more.

This forces decks to be less versatile, diminishing their playskill cap.  It also creates a higher number of unfun games by increasing the odds your less consistent deck provides you with the tools you need to stay in the game.

Remember that just because your deck can't do what you want it to do nearly as much, broken cards will still come off the top and win games.  It'll just happen proportionally more through lucksackery than good piloting, and meet adequate disruption proportionally more through lucksackery than good piloting.

Additionally, while I'm still not advocating any restrictions right now, I don't feel restricting GAT because it is very strong is correct.  Some decks are better than others.  If you feel GAT (or merchant scroll) makes the format unplayable that's one thing, but if you feel you need to play a tier 1 deck to not be at a disadvantage that is very reasonable, especially when 1.5 decks have worse, but not heartbreaking odds.

If I were to ask for any b/r changes it would probably be Flash.  The deck produces games I don't enjoy and that's that.  I could spout off about playskill cap, interactivity, and power level, but I'm not sure any of those arguments are valid.  I like the Trinisphere comparison.  Too many games involving Flash suck.

Were you playing before Fetchlands were printed? Somehow I feel this would go a long way towards figuring out where the major disconnect we're having stems from. Because I just can't get behind this whole, 'obv obv all decks get inconsistent to the point where the format as a whole is weakened' some of you guys are getting at. Like there was quite a long time before Brainstorm was the end-all be all of cantrips. I'm also lost in that your basically inferring nobody would figure out workarounds to make decks consistent minus some Brainstorm. Seems kind of weak.

[Smmenen]

Dave, I'm not sure that's actually true.

Fish became really, really, really good in vintage at a time when all of the major fish players insisted on not playing Brainstorm.   

Look at the Fish deck that Marc Perez built that put Fish on the map in 2004: http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/7145.html

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/feature/245

Look at the Fish deck that top8ed that year at the Vintage Champs: http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/7968.html

Now, Look at the fish deck that top8ed at Gencon last year:
http://www.wizards.com/de

fault.asp?x=mtgevent/vintage06/welcome

No Brainstorm

Urbana Fish has no Brainstorms as created last year: http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=20341
And Becker won a ton of Moxen last year. 

And with the advent of UW Fish, the original lists by Zheng and others did not run Brainstorm.

In fact, with the very small exception of Jacob Orlove's late Worse than Fish, no Fish player ran Brainstorm until you.  When I did a search of Fish decks performing in the last year, unfortunately, basically no name came up besides Dave Feinstein. 

Fish is the one deck, with Stax, that can survive without Brainstorm.   In fact, I think if Brainstorm were restricted, Fish would become very, very good.    Presumptive tier 1, actually.   

Steve... every example you listed was in a world where Gush was still restricted and flash didn't exist.

Thing is, with Brainstorm restricted, Flash isn't half as good.    It's Ancestral Recall in that deck.  In some cases better.

Think about that: Brainstorm is Ancestral Recall in Flash.

And GAT....

Without Brainstorm, GAT is dead as we know it, straight up.   

Good luck playing a "Gro" deck with 1 Brainstorm.    Miracle Grow functions because you can run a super light mana base with lots of good cantrips.   Brainstorm is the best.   4 Sleight of hand just isn't remotely as good.   

I think if Brainstorm were restricted, Fish and Stax would be the only two decks that exist as we know them, and they'd both be VERY good.

[nataz]

Interesting that Veggies brought fetches up, but to be fair, a lot of the reason why blue is so good in the first place is that it's so painless to splash. Out of curiosity, where do we draw the line at restrictions? Fetchlands are actually far more format warping then pretty much anything ever. It's fetchlands that lets slaver spash for will. It's fetchlands that lets drayd run rampent in a blue based deck.

Of course, one step further, we have the duals.

Now, I'm not suggesting that we rest. duals or fetches, but it does make me think.

I don't like the idea of Type I being the format where everyone's deck is playable, I belive in a real metagame - but why am I so personally wedded to the idea of good mana bases? I think the answer comes in two parts. One, I think mana screw isn't fun, and good lands make that a non-issue. Second, I think that modern vintage is defined by good mana, including fetchlands, and getting rid of that brings me back to a format that was less interesting.

The funny part is, the fun argument can be expanded into the rest. of flash (which I am against), and the format defining argument can be expanded into the protection of brainstorm at any cost (which I am also against). So I guess I can understand where people are coming from when they say that flash is unfun, or that brainstorm is too fun (!).

At first I thought I found a way around this mental quandry by arguing that mana bases are off limits for restiction because they are availible and powerful to all. Since each color combonation has a dual - its all fair and equal. The market worked in that we had an overall increase in power level, but every color, and therefore base deck option, was equal. But then I remembered that part of what makes fetches so powerful is the ability to play a "blue" deck, and splash for any other colors you needed. Perhaps since blue is too powerful, maybe the way to bring balence to the format is not though the restrictions of flash/scroll/brainstorm, but rather polluted delta and flooded strand?

Just as brainstorm would weaken mana bases, so would the loss of blue fetches. Ditto on the fact that fetches are the other half of the brainstorm-fetch super card selection machine.

So yea, is there a reason why we can't restrict good mana?

Also of note, its not like good mana hasn't been restricted before. Just take a look at all the artifact mana on the resticted list.

oh, and this time I beat steve to the punch :p
  

[Dxfiler]

Thing is, with Brainstorm restricted, Flash isn't half as good.    It's Ancestral Recall in that deck.  In some cases better.

Think about that: Brainstorm is Ancestral Recall in Flash.

No card is Ancestral Recall.  You still have to put 2 cards back no matter what if you use Brainstorm.  Even if it's just a small side effect and even potentially a bonus in Flash, Brainstorm is not Ancestral Recall.  They just are not on the same power level. 

For card drawing there's ancestral... and there's everything else.

And GAT....

Without Brainstorm, GAT is dead as we know it, straight up.   

Good luck playing a "Gro" deck with 1 Brainstorm.    Miracle Grow functions because you can run a super light mana base with lots of good cantrips.   Brainstorm is the best.   4 Sleight of hand just isn't remotely as good.   

It's not like the deck would just curl up and die.  Oh noes.  We have to modify the deck to run more mana.  The world is over.

I've already tested Sleight of Hand and other 1 cc U cantrips in GAT with Shay and others... it would not be the end of the road for that deck.  Not by a longshot.

I think if Brainstorm were restricted, Fish and Stax would be the only two decks that exist as we know them, and they'd both be VERY good.

How in the world did you reach that conclusion? =/  What about Ichorid?  That deck would almost certainly become the best deck of the current ones without brainstorm.  I mean the deck is hard enough to contain as is... it's not like there wasn't one hanging out with you in top 4 at Gencon.

I'm not trying to put you under the hotseat Steve, but I think you're just ignoring the results of well performing decks right now that don't use brainstorm.  How can you tell me fish would suddenly rise up and be tier one when it isn't even close to that right now without brainstorm?

It's not like we'd be entering a brave new world if Brainstorm got the axe.  I think it's reasonable to assume that many decks right now would carry over and very few brand new decks would pop out of nowhere.  The reality is that alot of solid tier 1-2 decks would just pale in comparison to ones with merchant scroll because now they don't have brainstorm while scroll decks still have that as well as Gush in many cases.  It's like popping out a tire but ignoring the engine.

Oh you can add control slaver to my list of decks that I believe would be severely weakened if brainstorm got the axe.  More to come as I think about it.

There's not a whole lot more I can add to the 'brainstorm restriction' debate.  I don't think it should be a debate at all.  Brainstorm at worst the getaway driver while Scroll/Gush/Flash (in that order) continue to actually pull the trigger on people.

- Dave

[Liam-K]

Dave: I'm reasonably certain that if GAT were forced to cut 3 brainstorm, they would be replaced by at least two land.  Test the deck with +1 opt +2 land and see if you can make it unfair.  I'm ready to assume I cannot.  It may still beat fish... fish is slow and loses to larger men... but I can't imagine fish's matchup getting worse.

I'm on board with Purple Hat, he seems to have been saying what I was trying to say more clearly.

A format with 1 Brainstorm is not a format without 10-15 1-of's.  Instead, it is a format that fails to draw what it needs, a lot.  It is also a format that retains bomby nutz draws.  The nuts happen less but stick more.  Your draw step just plain fails you in an even position more.  You can't find your even-more-limited-slot-wise disruption plan more.  Your hand won't let you play the correct role more.

This forces decks to be less versatile, diminishing their playskill cap.  It also creates a higher number of unfun games by increasing the odds your less consistent deck provides you with the tools you need to stay in the game.

Remember that just because your deck can't do what you want it to do nearly as much, broken cards will still come off the top and win games.  It'll just happen proportionally more through lucksackery than good piloting, and meet adequate disruption proportionally more through lucksackery than good piloting.

Additionally, while I'm still not advocating any restrictions right now, I don't feel restricting GAT because it is very strong is correct.  Some decks are better than others.  If you feel GAT (or merchant scroll) makes the format unplayable that's one thing, but if you feel you need to play a tier 1 deck to not be at a disadvantage that is very reasonable, especially when 1.5 decks have worse, but not heartbreaking odds.

If I were to ask for any b/r changes it would probably be Flash.  The deck produces games I don't enjoy and that's that.  I could spout off about playskill cap, interactivity, and power level, but I'm not sure any of those arguments are valid.  I like the Trinisphere comparison.  Too many games involving Flash suck.

Were you playing before Fetchlands were printed? Somehow I feel this would go a long way towards figuring out where the major disconnect we're having stems from. Because I just can't get behind this whole, 'obv obv all decks get inconsistent to the point where the format as a whole is weakened' some of you guys are getting at. Like there was quite a long time before Brainstorm was the end-all be all of cantrips. I'm also lost in that your basically inferring nobody would figure out workarounds to make decks consistent minus some Brainstorm. Seems kind of weak.

Yeah, I followed vintage from just before Trix got huge to just before GAT started getting played (the first time).  I started paying attention again when I tracked down TMD from #bdchat and stopped seeing shit like Guilded Lotus in serious lists.  Maybe it was good in goth slaver or something but I couldn't get back into caring until I saw one of JD's deathlong lists and absolutely had to goldfish.

According to what I recall, decks were consistant in one of two ways back then.  Everything being too slow for it to matter (keeper), 4-of's without restricted cards (everything else).  Then 4 FoF.  Then stuff like Standstill, Survival, etc.  Admittedly I was a much weaker player then than now, but my memory of decks tending to abide by either the play lots of restricted cards and hope one blows your opponent out theory, or the play practically no restricted bomb cards and hope you can win before your opponent's dreadful, dreadful bomb-finding system came online.  Generally the former won out.  BBS did not fit the formula and was neutered.  I feel like OSE might have been something of an exception, but honestly I never played that deck.

I also remember manabases including a single basic island as anti-wasteland tech in the pre fetchland eta.  Yeah, that'd be awesome to try one more time.

"Control" usually translates into "an early game defensive plan enabling the use of swingier cards later."  "Aggro" usually translates to "get a lot of tempo out of your opening 7 because if you go card for card, their cards do more."  In current magic theory, choosing your role more correctly than your opponent wins you the game.  Because brainstorm allows you to carry out *specific* plans on purpose, it allows you to build a deck that has a useable game plan for either role, allowing the player to choose which is correct.  Brainstorm-less decks by nature have less avenues of play and are forced to focus on one mode during deck design, creating a rock-paper-scissors metagame... more slots must be devoted to land, and more slots must be devoted to your primary mode or it won't function.

(as an aside, this is what made gifts good.  All the cards in the deck except the explicit win conditions were good at aggro or control.  If brainstorm went on and gifts came off it would be a top deck.)

Personally I prefer a metagame where playskill matters more and raw matchups between the top 3 decks are as close to 50/50 as possible.  I do not prefer a metagame where pairings matter more and I'm constantly either locked into doing something whether it will work or not, or praying for the right card to come to the top.  I think brainstorm improves the format.

[Purple Hat]

A somewhat interesting method of dealing with flash through restrictions would be to restrict summoner's pact and protean hulk.  I kind of like this solution because it allows rector flash to still be playable.  I think rector flash is a more inheirently fair deck since it frequently has to pass the turn after flashing out rector in order to get an additional land drop and therefore can't really run pact of negation.

[Implacable]

No card is Ancestral Recall.  You still have to put 2 cards back no matter what if you use Brainstorm.  Even if it's just a small side effect and even potentially a bonus in Flash, Brainstorm is not Ancestral Recall.  They just are not on the same power level. 

For card drawing there's ancestral... and there's everything else.

My hand is as follows: Mox Sapphire, Polluted Delta, Brainstorm, [Sliver], [Sliver], Merchant Scroll, Force of Will.

I play: Mox, Brainstorm, and draw Flash, Demonic Tutor, Mox Jet, then put back [Sliver] [Sliver]. 

In doing so, I have drawn three cards, and put back two cards that were dead anyway.  In doing so, I have created a virtual card advantage of +2 (I had 5 cards in hand at the beginning of the turn, and after playing a mana source, ended up with 6).  This is not 'fuzzy math'; it, and variations of it, are a common and incredibly powerful play in Flash.  In these cases, Brainstorm is Ancestral Recall.

[Jacob Orlove]

Note that [Sliver][Sliver] can also be [Land][Land] or [Hulk][Hulk] and you still get a huge boost out of Brainstorm.

Brainstorm shows you three cards now, and makes you "pay" for it later, or never. In terms of Tempo, it's a Pact of Ancestral in decks that are fast enough.

Edit: also, people, we're not going to restrict Donate, or errata Illusions or Dragon or Animate. Nor are we going to restrict Protean Hulk or Summoner's Pact. That's just not how the system works, at all.

[Grand Inquisitor]

Edit: also, people, we're not going to restrict Donate, or errata Illusions or Dragon or Animate. Nor are we going to restrict Protean Hulk or Summoner's Pact. That's just not how the system works, at all.

I think we're on the same page.  Jacob, you're saying that DCI goes after the engine, not the combo, right?

I'm not trying to put you under the hotseat Steve, but I think you're just ignoring the results of well performing decks right now that don't use brainstorm.  How can you tell me fish would suddenly rise up and be tier one when it isn't even close to that right now without brainstorm?

First, outside of forgetting ichorid (and that may have been intentional), Steve's right that Workshop and Fish are really it for non-brainstorm decks.  GAT, Gifts, Bomber, Slaver, Pitchlong, Oath, all run 4.  Belcher and Dragon are the only other decks I can think of and those aren't exactly common appearances.  Second, metagame shifts are subtle.  All it took was Gifts getting knocked off, and Bomberman suddenly became good.*  I'm not sure if you were around before fetchlands, but when they came together with brainstorms is when things really got interesting in vintage.  Likewise you seem to underappreciate the roll of brainstorm in blue based combo/combo-control decks.  It makes any opening grip worth considering to keep.  Often times I'll look back at a game where I felt I drew well but didn't pull it out; often times I realize I never saw a brainstorm.  I think the key here is what was said above about tactical flexibility:

In current magic theory, choosing your role more correctly than your opponent wins you the game.  Because brainstorm allows you to carry out *specific* plans on purpose, it allows you to build a deck that has a useable game plan for either role, allowing the player to choose which is correct.  Brainstorm-less decks by nature have less avenues of play

*Many of its adherents will argue to the contrary, but Bomberman just isn't a good choice in a metagame with any other dominant drain deck (at least this was the case before the printing of Aven Mindcensor).

[Smmenen]

Let me just say that everything I write here is not in support of the restriction of Brainstorm.    I do not support that move.   

Thing is, with Brainstorm restricted, Flash isn't half as good.    It's Ancestral Recall in that deck.  In some cases better.

Think about that: Brainstorm is Ancestral Recall in Flash.

No card is Ancestral Recall.  You still have to put 2 cards back no matter what if you use Brainstorm.  Even if it's just a small side effect and even potentially a bonus in Flash, Brainstorm is not Ancestral Recall.  They just are not on the same power level. 

For card drawing there's ancestral... and there's everything else.

That's the only difference.  In terms of tactics and strategy, Brainstorm is the same card.   The only advantage that A. Recall has
is that it makes subsequent Brainstorms more powerful because you have more cards to put back.   But in terms of how Flash plays out, Brainstorm is Ancestral.   There are typically dead cards that you’d often prefer just were shuffled away anyway.   

And GAT....

Without Brainstorm, GAT is dead as we know it, straight up.   

Good luck playing a "Gro" deck with 1 Brainstorm.    Miracle Grow functions because you can run a super light mana base with lots of good cantrips.   Brainstorm is the best.   4 Sleight of hand just isn't remotely as good.   

It's not like the deck would just curl up and die.  Oh noes.  We have to modify the deck to run more mana.  The world is over.

[/quote]

But Dave!  That's the whole GAT stratetgy!   Remember, GAT stands for “Grow”!    The Grow concept was built upon light mana bases and cheap cantrips.    GAT is, in addition to a control and combo deck, a tempo deck that often just wins by a hair over the opponent.   The reason for that ability to win there is the virtual card advantage derived from a light mana base.  If you can’t get to two mana reliably on a 13 island mana base, then Gush sucks.  And if you have to run more than 14 lands total, Gush sucks because you see too many land.   It’s a delicate balance.   

Remove Brainstorm and GAT is sufficiently weaker that I would not play it.    You’d have to be nuts to play GAT in a field with basically Stax and Ichorid if you can’t run Brainstorm.   

I've already tested Sleight of Hand and other 1 cc U cantrips in GAT with Shay and others... it would not be the end of the road for that deck.  Not by a longshot.

I've played Sleight for a very long time.  It's not bad, but there is a big difference between playing Sleight and playing Sleight in lieu of Brainstorm.   

It might not be the end of the road, but it would be the end of the road as far as I was concerned.   

I NEVER played GAT with Gush restricted.  I would never play GAT with Brainstorm restricted.   

I would, however, continue to play GAT with Scroll restricted.    FYI.

I think if Brainstorm were restricted, Fish and Stax would be the only two decks that exist as we know them, and they'd both be VERY good.

How in the world did you reach that conclusion? =/  What about Ichorid?  That deck would almost certainly become the best deck of the current ones without brainstorm.

Sure, sure.   Add Ichorid to that list.

I think that if Brainstorm were restricted, Fish, Stax, and Ichorid would be the only decks unaffected.


Basically, I played in the pre-brainstorm era.   Brainstorm wasn't played much in Vintage until fetchlands came along.

since, it has been the BEST unrestricted draw engine in Vintage, bar none.   

I'm not saying it should be restricted.  My suggestions for restriction were already explained in my article last week and I explained the pros and cons of brainstorm there as well.

I'm just interjecting myself in this thread because i think that there were a few problems with some of the things being said. 

If Brainstorm were restricted, it would:

1) Completely reshape the format. 

2) Slow it down dramatically.   Grim Long, Pitch Long, and combo blue decks all lose a ton of "oomph"

3) weaken lots of inefficiently designed decks that rely on brainstorm to glue it together that have "bad cards" they need to Braisntorm back

4) Non Blue decks would get ALOT better

But, again, I am not on the restrict Brainstorm bandwagon.   

I think the only card that needs restriction is Flash.   

[Jacob Orlove]

Edit: also, people, we're not going to restrict Donate, or errata Illusions or Dragon or Animate. Nor are we going to restrict Protean Hulk or Summoner's Pact. That's just not how the system works, at all.

I think we're on the same page.  Jacob, you're saying that DCI goes after the engine, not the combo, right?

Yeah, essentially. More than that, though, the DCI hits the genuinely overpowered card (Necro), even if it sees play in other, fair decks, rather than restrict the worthless combo pieces that only see play in the unfair decks. Under that logic, the only argument for restricting Flash is the Trinisphere effect, and I don't know that we're at that threshold.

Merchant Scroll, though, is extremely likely to get the axe, by that same logic.

[Liam-K]

Likewise you seem to underappreciate the roll of brainstorm in blue based combo/combo-control decks.  It makes any opening grip worth considering to keep.  Often times I'll look back at a game where I felt I drew well but didn't pull it out; often times I realize I never saw a brainstorm.  I think the key here is what was said above about tactical flexibility:

In current magic theory, choosing your role more correctly than your opponent wins you the game.  Because brainstorm allows you to carry out *specific* plans on purpose, it allows you to build a deck that has a useable game plan for either role, allowing the player to choose which is correct.  Brainstorm-less decks by nature have less avenues of play

This feeds right into something I wanted to say.  While fetching away 2 junk cards for 3 good ones is awesome, 4 card soft combos (brainstorm, shuffle, dead card, dead card) are certainly not problems for vintage.  The real strength of brainstorm is what it does to mulligan percentages.  It can both make you throw away less hands, and let you build flexible decks that don't have to constantly toss back their 7 (for either manabase reasons or too strongly suggesting the incorrect role).  It was said early in the thread that brainstorm's effect on deck design was huge, this is why.

Again, for clarity, I think this playroom in deck design makes for a better metagame.  My reasons are above.

[Yare]

Rather than look at particular cards, I opted to look at a general philosophy of the B/R, which I undertook here:

Balancing Vintage: the Banned/Restricted List

It's fairly late, so I'll hold off on commenting for now; I just post it now since the article just went up.

Edit:
I chose to exclude a discussion of current potential changes for two reasons:
1. To try to make the article more "timeless" rather than specific to the current metagame.
2. To avoid the focus of the article being "I agree/disagree with your recommendation with respect to Brainstorm/Flash/Gush/Rabid Wombat", which would inevitably occur if I made substantive policy recommendations.

That being said, I'm all for that discussion here, obviously.

[Raph Caron]

Smmenen said :

If Brainstorm were restricted, it would:

1) Completely reshape the format. 

2) Slow it down dramatically.   Grim Long, Pitch Long, and combo blue decks all lose a ton of "oomph"

3) weaken lots of inefficiently designed decks that rely on brainstorm to glue it together that have "bad cards" they need to Braisntorm back

4) Non Blue decks would get ALOT better

I pray for that to happen every night. No, seriously. Brainstorm is probably the reason Trinisphere got the axe instead of Workshop. As it was said before, Brainstorm allowed decks to find solutions to broken starts.

I still believe that all fast mana should be restricted. What we call «broken cards» is much less «broken» when fast mana is not around.

[Purple Hat]

Smmenen said :

If Brainstorm were restricted, it would:

1) Completely reshape the format. 

2) Slow it down dramatically.   Grim Long, Pitch Long, and combo blue decks all lose a ton of "oomph"

3) weaken lots of inefficiently designed decks that rely on brainstorm to glue it together that have "bad cards" they need to Braisntorm back

4) Non Blue decks would get ALOT better

I pray for that to happen every night. No, seriously. Brainstorm is probably the reason Trinisphere got the axe instead of Workshop. As it was said before, Brainstorm allowed decks to find solutions to broken starts.

I still believe that all fast mana should be restricted. What we call «broken cards» is much less «broken» when fast mana is not around.

I feel like if we start restricting workshop, drain, brainstorm, ritual, grim tutor, etc. eventually we're gonna end up playing either highlander or legacy, neither of which is particularly interesting to me.

[Grand Inquisitor]

I feel like if we start restricting workshop, drain, brainstorm, ritual, grim tutor, etc. eventually we're gonna end up playing either highlander or legacy, neither of which is particularly interesting to me.

Well, brainstorm isn't necessarily a gateway restriction.  In fact, it may be the opposite in that it stops or forestalls restrictions of other cards (Flash, Gush, Scroll).

[kirdape3]

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dci/announce/dci20070901a

Clearly they did it for the lulz.

[Zherbus]

Well, welcome to another 4 of Gush. Unbelievable.

[Dxfiler]

#$%@! is what I planned on saying but "unbelievable" sums it up too.

How in the hell do they not touch ANYTHING?  I mean I figured they'd stay away from flash and gush because that would mean admitting they made a mistake which R&D almost never does... but scroll just seemed so obvious.  The numbers don't lie.   

I mean you could make a strong case for any of those 3 and they just choose to do nothing? 

Wow.

- Dave

P.S. Wait... they did do something.  Sharazhad got that much needed ban we were all holding our breaths for.  Keep earning those paychecks guys! <3

[LotusHead]

There goes my dreams of making the ultimate Shaharazad Time Vault Deck