Oath of druids in the current meta.

[Guli]

Show and tell is a very risky route. The only way i could see it working is by playing 4 duress and 4 thoughtseize to at least take out their bombs.

[Benie Bederios]

Hello again,

Well thanks for the idea's. I probably go for the Angel build then. Yeah the reason I play this deck it's the only deck that can be powered down and has the power of a Vintage deck( something lacking with Goblins or Sui.)

The reason why Chrome Mox and Crypt are in there is that they both give a T1 Oath. Next to that I play Thirst for Knowledge so I need them for my artifact count. I already play Sol Ring too.

The reason why I suggested Fastbond, that it turns all lands in moxen. So if after you milled yourself, you could play Will and then Fastbond out of your grave and get some mana. But if you didn't even see it, it's probably not worth it  .

I do have one question, Life from the Loam yes or no? It's a nice card and combined with Factories and Wastelands/Stripmine it can be rather good. The problem it takes up your drawstep and it costs two, so it won't go through Chalice for 2, if you need a backupplan.

With a fully powered version you don't need Show and Tell. You run enough tutors combined with Mana Drain to cast a Tyrant and proceed to win from there. I always thought this was a control deck by the way. The only difference is that it winconditions is only 2 mana and takes 3 turns to win. When you have problems forcing through Oath, you just can play the control role until you can power through Oath or hardcast Tyrant. What I'm trying to say, when you can't resolve a Oath or Tyrant, you might be playing the deck the wrong way.

BB

[Everrid1234]

Well, you are describing the way to win with Oath as too easy in my eyes.

-> cast a Tyrant:
Eh.....? Ok, maybe in a very lucky situation. Countering a FoW or a Smokestack or a Chalice for 2. And then you need maybe Mana crypt, 2 lands or something. This argument is just not realistic. Especially if your opponent knows how to play against Oath.
See: You need Oath, you need Forbidden Orchard and Counterbackup. You starting hand will often not bring you this combination. So you maybe get Counters, Forbidden and tutor. You say "Ah, a tutor! How cool! I will get Oath in turn 2 on my hand! Keep!"
Then your oppenent starts with Duress. Or a Dark Confidant. Or a Sphere. You see what I want to say? There is an opponent existing. Its not just that you have to let the Oath resolve, no.
You have to find the 2 winning pieces, protect one of them, getting hate like Chalices, Spheres or Meddling Mage out of the way and maybe Brainstorm the Tyrant back in the library (if you only have 1 in the library).

Its not this easy... Because of this I suggest an alternative win route via Show and Tell. You have MORE options to get the Tyrant out. Of course Show and Tell is not THE card. Maybe you could add more hate like Root Maze.

And "just play the control route". What is that? The opponent plays threats, you can't counter each fat artifact or fishs hate. And there is Duress existing which can turn you whole hand into crap. Oath wants to win fast, there is no "control route". A control route needs excellent draw and hate. You could maybe try this route by packing Intuition/Accumulated Knowledge inside.
But this is expensive, takes space and gives your opponent time with attacking and maybe building up a counterwall/Swords-t-P by Confidant-draw. Remember, Oath has no really good mass removal, maybe Engineered Explosives, and you don't want to tutor for this.

@Guli: You don't care of their bombs (about which bombs do you think btw?), because you bounce them, maybe next turn. Since Spheres etc should be already played when you cast the Show and Tell it is not such a big problem imo. Of course there are a few bad situations.

[Solomox]

@Everrid1234

I appreciate you posting and understand the points you made.  I just want to start off by saying you're right.  There is no "I'll just play control and win every game" mentality going on here.  While the points you made are correct, they are points that any Oath player is aware of. Anyone who has played the deck for a while knows the dangers of a well timed duress from your opponent.  They also know that every starting hand is not going to be Mox, Orchard, Oath and 2 forces with 2 blue cards.  I actualldy did look into the Show and Tell idea you presented.  I played aboue 12 games with it and found it at most to be clunky.  More often than playing it, it was pitched to FoW or MisD when I drew it and I never felt the need to tutor for it.  I'm not trying to flame you or anything, your points are correct.  Please understand, however, that the points you made are dangers that every Oath player already knows about, have accepted and moved on.  Also remember, Show and Tell fall's to a duress just as fast as an Oath. 

[Everrid1234]

Solomox,

thanks for the comment. As I said, Show and Tell is not the real bomb, its just an option you could tutor for in a crappy situation (Chalice or Meddling dropped). But since you need the Tyrant on your hand and have to go up to 3-4 Tyrants this version is maybe worse than the normal one bacause the Tyrants waste space in 80% of all cases. One should try.
But i think its just a bit like Oath's fate to have these problems.

[Solomox]

@Everrid1234

I agree.  Oath is a great deck that is a lot of fun to play.  The problem is that in a fomat where Duress, Thoughtseize, Chalice, Force, 9 Spheres, and maindeck bounce all are viable, Oath has more troubles than most decks.  This is due to the fact that they simply must win by getting an Oath active or hardcasting a creature.  This has kept it off the top tables in the U.S.  It's still fun to play and can sometimes just win.  I don't think I would take it to any major tournament, but it should be fine in local tournaments. 

[Benie Bederios]

Hello,

I didn't mean to say, that you can win every game by playing the control role. I just pointed out, that this deck can play the control role. You don't have to focus on a turn 1/2 Oath. Sure if you can do it with Protection it's great, but the deck plays quite some control( mine version 9 counters, 2 semi-sweepers, Bounce, Manlands, Chalice/Null Rod and the possible Wastelock with Life from the Loam) and doesn't always need to win turn 3 or 4.

I played against a guy and had a Empyrial Seal and Mana Drain in my hand( possibly a T2 Oath) and 2 lands. On turn 1 I played a land on turn 1. He starts with land and Mox Sapphire. Second turn I only play my land. On his second turn he played a Tinker ( on the Sapphire) wich I mana Drained and he didn't counter back so I knew he was out of counters. The turn after that I topdecked a Thirst and played Seal->Oath and Thirst and played Oath. After the game he told me he had a Mana Drain in hand but had no mana. If I went turn 1  Seal and turn 2 Oath instead, Oath would have been countered and he could Tinker his Sapphire without problems. Sure this was more luck than knowledge, but it underlines my point.

And your example is the same as when playing Grim Long with Lotus, double Mox in hand with no lands and your opponent starts with T1 Chalice or Workshop into Null Rod or playing Stax on the draw with Workshop and Trinishpere in hand, and your opponent plays a Tendrils for 22 turn 1. Those things happens.

I think Oath has a place in Vintage and is more than just a fundeck. Especially when on a budget, because it's a stronger choice than Sui-Black and Goblins and maybe harder to disrupt than Flash( 1 card combo against 2 cardcombo, Oath can still put a Akroma in play with Leyline out, Echoing truth on the Sliver is worse than on an Angel, but haven't tested Vintage Flash.) You normally play 2 pieces of Fat against Bounce and that sort of thing. I do agree it isn't the best choice, but still a contender.

BB

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

@ b b
I'm not trying to be rude or anything, but I think you've misunderstood solomox. He's not disagreeing with you at all. He's just saying you've made an incorrect assessment of the mind set of most competent oath player. True, oath is at it's core a control deck most of the time, often running fow and a full set of drains. We realize that some times, this just isn't going to work, and run various utility and sb cards to deal with this. Knowing what role you need to play in a match up is the sign of a good vintage player.

When we mentioned possibly running imperial seal, it wasn't because oath has an awesome enchantment based "combo" win condition and we arbitrarily decided it needed to do off fast because thats always what we want to do. It was an assessment of our role in a heavy aggro meta where things like goyf and naught in conjunction with a vast amount of duress effect can easily disrupt us and easily out clock us in an environment where oath should theoretically thrive. Imperial seal seems like and optimal use of deck space. In a more combo oriented meta, I'd be more likely to lead with duress, or keep drain/snare mana open if I was without a force when paired against an unknown.

As for oath being a budget/non competitive deck, I really couldn't disagree with you more (honestly, I don't consider vintage a budget viable format). I would never really compare the deck to suiblack or goblins. Oath is a lot more thought intensive and resilient than both of these decks. You can plan a great control role, as mentioned before, while running 4 copies of your win condition, with the bonus of having 2 in play being relevant. the deck has a lot of tricks up its sleeves.

in any case, both solomox and I are agreeing with you, and I've been ignoring this thread for a few days due to what I feel has been a lack of relevant content. I was hoping we could get back to discussion oath in the current meta.

SB STUFF!

I've been going some work with my board lately, and I can't remember the last time I came a cross someone playing ichorid at a major event, or even heard of someone playing ichroid above the 2-0 bracket. Even in matches where Leyline should be relevant, combo, slaver, and flash. I find my self feeling they're suboptimal, often dead draws even. Does anyone else feel its time to drop them from the board?
right now I'm proposing the following sb.

2x pyroclasm
2x SSS
1x EE
2x platinum
1x tinker
2x smother
3x chalice of the void
2x t crypt

[Solomox]

Good board h3x!  I actually did cut Leyline's out too.  I've been having a back and forth battle of Leyline against Chalice.  I was thinking about putting Leyline back in.  (It's been one of those where every day I flip flop back and forth between Chalice and Leyline).  Once I started analyzing the matchups against decks like Nought, GAT, and Stax I really wanted Leyline's in my board.  I feel it may be the right call now due to being able to keep Tarmogoyf's manageable.  If you can hold their beats off long enough to resolve a Tyrant you have more options to regain board presence.  I do agree that Ichorid hasn't been showing it's ugly head for a while now, but I think I'm back on the Leyline wagon. 

Here's the sideboard I'm currently using:

4 Leyline of the Void
1 Fire/Ice
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Volcanic Island
1 Brain Freeze
1 Tinker
1 Platinum Angel
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Oxidize
1 Rack and Ruin
1 Echoing Truth

Tinker/Platz is for Flash, Ichorid and DeezNough

Leylines are for anything from Nought to Stax (w/Welders) to GAT to the random Ichorid

Volcanic Island/Ancient Grudge/Rack and Ruin/Fire & Ice/Oxidize for Stax

Echoing truth is for ETW or even multiple Goyf's.

I decided to take a more toolbox route since there are 2 Cunning Wishes in my maindeck.  This has worked pretty well for me lately.  Some fine tuning is still needed, but this board has been productive enough for what I need.  I'd still like to see some REB's in the board, but cant really find the room now.  I'd also like more Fire/Ices and Smothers in the board.  They are soooo good right now. 

[Nehptis]

I actually Main Deck Smother and Echoing Truth.  There are always useful targets in the current meta.  Also, I've had some luck with B Hellkite in the board.  A board clearer or 5 to the dome is nice.

COTVs once main are now board. Even there I'm finding them hard to use with less storm around.  Setting it at 2 against all the GAT or Gof decks just doesn't work for Oath.

[islanderboi10]

I would definetly run the Leylines as well.  Especially with Goyf in the meta, I sideboarded those in, and it made my GAT opponent cry.

Anyways, I would also probably run one Titan as a tinker/Oath target.  He is just so good right now.
Other than that, I like your sideboard, Hex.

This is mine:

SIDEBOARD:

2 SSS
1 Platz
1 Tinker
1 Titan
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Oxidize
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Brain Freeze
2 Smother

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

@islanderboi

It may seem a little weird, but I'm not a huge fan of cunning wish brain freeze. Once you get going, the creatures are usually enough, as far as goyf goes, assigning 4 sb slots to cut off one graveyard seems a little excessive compared to simply running a smother, or the more flexible tormod's crypt (I've also had some really hot spell snares on dryad and goyf). I'm really not to concerned about the GAT match up between the sb smothers and main deck snares. I'd really like to find room for 2 or 3 oxidize, but I'm not sure what to cut.

@nehptis
I'm pretty sure the vast majority of lists right now main deck e truth, smother might be a really good call in the main deck. I've been testing b hellkite scince it was printed. It's rarely better than 2x tidespout, bouncing your opponent's entire board is enough disruption for most deck. The only match up I prefer hellkite in his combo, comboing off mox ruby for infinite hellkite casts is surprisingly more relevant than expected. As far as chalice goes, I've found it useful . At star city, the higher brackets were full of combo day two. A lot of deck's have cut misdirection for pact, and chalice at one still reduces combo to draw go for a good 4 turns. We'll have to monitor the meta to see if chalice should be cut, but i wouldn't be so hasty on it.

[Solomox]

Ok, so.  I've decided that most of the Oath players left are in Europe.  I played some games on MWS and saw some really crazy, but interesting stuff.  One guy Oathed up a Bringer of the White Dawn, a Colossus, Platinum Angel and an Akroma.  I didn't have anything for it.  Another guy simply got out Darksteel Colossus and Eternal Witness.  These games got me thinking...  Maindeck DC is actually really good.  I played Deez Noughts agains it and realized that a 12/12 Trampler is not as good as an Indestructable 11/11 Trampler.  Not fair.  The Bringer/Colossus/Platz/Akroma did completely lock me out, but that was due to my play errors. 

In any case, could it be a good time to maindeck a Darksteel Colossus?  I battled Colossus/Oath with Deez Noughts, Empty Gush and a Tendrils Variant and found it way more effective than Tyrant for now.  In an unknown meta, I still like Tyrant better,  but could it be time for Colossus to come back???

[Harlequin]

If you testing Guantlet is only Control Decks, then Colossus will certainly look good.  However if you put a few decks running welder into the mix then cards like DSC and plats are not very good.  Sinse Lorwyn I have been running a Maindeck Trike over Sundering Titan.  Not only does he stop remove the little guys, but he infinitely pings with tyrant + 2 mox.

[Fake0ut]

okay, I've been meaning to post up my list.  note ahead of time, my list is far from perfect, but I wanted to really discuss the merits of merchant scroll.

// Lands
    4  Forbidden Orchard
    3  Flooded Strand
    2  Polluted Delta
    2  Underground Sea
    2  Island
    2  Tropical Island
    1  Tolarian Academy

// Creatures
    1  Tidespout Tyrant

// Spells
    1  Lotus Petal
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Mana Crypt
   
    4  Oath of Druids

    4  Force of Will
    2  Mana Drain
    1  Misdirection
    4  Duress

    4  Brainstorm
    1  Ancestral Recall
    1  Time Walk

    1  Yawgmoth's Will

    2  Cunning Wish
    1  Vampiric Tutor
    1  Demonic Tutor
    2  Intuition
    1  Mystical Tutor
    4  Merchant Scroll
    1  Imperial Seal

    1  Krosan Reclamation

// Sideboard
SB: 1  Misdirection
SB: 1  Brain Freeze
SB: 1  Rebuild
SB: 1  Echoing Truth
SB: 2  Trickbind
SB: 1  Tinker
SB: 1  Research/Development
SB: 1  Platinum Angel
SB: 4  Leyline of the Void
SB: 1  Sundering Titan
SB: 1  Crop Rotation


Land:

The deck has a pretty standard manabase.  I probably need to fit in a basic forest actually, because with all the RG theres magus of the moon floating around and he's a pain without a mox.

The only thing to note is the tolarian academy.  I still don't like it, but I can't really see library being played over it either, because there have been a few games that the U mana has pushed me over the top.  Not sure what to do with it yet, just like everybody.

Creatures:

No plats or other creatures because once tyrant hits, there isn't going to be much my opponent can do other than REB him.  Hopefully I will be bouncing their permanants or cunning wish up brain freeze ftw.

I'd like to fit trike as he does good things such as pick off smaller creatures and he is very castable from my hand, but if I'm oathing and I hit him first, I'm not going to be too excited.  The only other creature I would consider would probably be eternal witness but I took it out originally because it seemed like win-more.

Artifacts:

Something that I wanted to change about the deck is this, NO SOL RING.  I know its not that huge, but I can't justify the card.  What it offers (T2 intuition/wish/additional artifact for academy/tinker) is not worth a slot in the MD to me.  It doesn't help me with any 2 mana T1 plays which is what the deck really wants.  I'd rather have a tutor which is going to make for a better topdeck and better earlier draw to search up oath.

The rest of the artifacts are standard.  Again, max out your T1 2 mana plays.

Tutors:

Things to note right now is that imperial seal seems kind of random.  It does its job, but I can't help but wonder if theres something better to replace it with (maybe ponder which isn't technically a tutor).  Intuition has been quite a star as it usually fetches up 3 oaths ftw.  Merchant scroll is really the most odd one in a list without gush or any gifts.  Scroll has been extremely good to me, though.  Obviously ancestrall is a good target.  Intuition/cunning wish are runners up (fetching up cunning wish in particular when I have tyrant on the table is useful to win on the spot).  Even fetching up brainstorm to shuffle away tyrant.  The point is, I really noticed a difference in the power of the deck after merchant scroll was added.  I don't know that I would be playing mystical if it was not for merchant scroll even.  Mystical normally will end up grabbing ancestrall or yawg will.  Crop rotation is in the side to cunning wish for if I need to get orchard right away.

Disruption/protection:

The whole 4 force, 2 drains, 1 MisD, 4 duress has become pretty standard these days, so I didn't really mess with that too much yet.

SB:

Definately needs work. 

SB: 1  Misdirection - I have yet to wish for it.  Seems way too situational although if I ever need FoW #2 in hand it might be useful.
SB: 1  Brain Freeze - win condition obv
SB: 1  Rebuild - stax (do I really need this?)
SB: 1  Echoing Truth - empty the warrens and meddling mage
SB: 2  Trickbind - vs. combo
SB: 1  Tinker - grab plat to make trouble for certain decks
SB: 1  Research/Development - fight extirpate
SB: 1  Platinum Angel - just plain beats certain decks
SB: 4  Leyline of the Void - ichorid/flash
SB: 1  Sundering Titan - not entirely sure why this is here
SB: 1  Crop Rotation - purely to wish for to get orchard

I doubt people are really going to discuss my list that much, but this deck is going to house in this creature heavier (than previous vintage) format.

[Nehptis]

@islanderboi10/everyone
Again, you can definitely see the list I'm currently testing:
the mana
4x fetch lands
3x tropical island
2x underground sea
2x island
1x strip
5x moxen
1x black lotus
Oath and friends
4x forbidden orchard
4x oath of druids
1x akroma, angel of wrath
1x razia
1x gaea's blessing
the x4's
4x duress
4x spell snare
4x mana drain
4x force of will
4x brainstorm
4x impulse
the x1's
1x skeletal scrying
1x ancestral recall
1x time walk
1x demonic tutor
1x vamp tutor
1x engineered explosives
1x echoing truth
sb:
2x SSS
4x leyline of the void
3x oxidize
1x smother
3x chalice of the void
2x pyroclasm

First, I believe that currently Tyrant Oath > Angel oath.  However, you should play what you are best at.  I am better at Angel Oath than Tyrant Oath. So, I try to improve my Angel Oath strategies whenever I can.

@hvndr3d y34r h3x I find your list and strategies to be very close to mine and I'm interested to discuss more about this particular build.  I'm assuming you are still playing this list.  I've been doing some testing on MWS with my build and posting some decent results against the meta.
My differences from your above list are:
MD:
- 2 Tropical Island
- 4 Duress (In a creature heavy meta I like Thoughtseize over Duress.  2 feels about right.)
- 1 Spell Snare
- 4 Mana Drain (In Angel Oath without COTV or TFK Drain just never felt right.  Plus UU was undesirable to me since I run Strip/Waste/Factory.  Leak worked OK for a while, but late game it wasn’t a hard counter.  Delay was the answer.  1U like Leak.  Plus always a hard counter.  3 turns in Vintage is forever.
- 4 Impulse (Every time I felt I needed a draw a engine I would look to impulse.  But I prefer more control in that spot.)
- 1 Skeletal Scrying  (Same thinking as Impulse.)

+ 1 Island
+ 1 Wasteland
+ 1 Mishra's Factory (It comes and goes in my build depending on the meta.)
+ 2 Thoughtseize  (See Duress comments above.)
+ 3 Delay (See Drain comments above.)
+ 3 MisD (I firmly believe that Angel Oath wants to get Oath out ASAP and protect and swing.  It doesn’t like a long game.  So, I like a heavy pitch counter package so I can go Mox, Orchard, Oath, Pitch counter or Turn 2 land, Oath, Pitch Counter.  Also, MisD is nice vs STP and of course the Recall to me.)
+ 1 Smother (Meta game choice with so much Tarm / Bob / GAT)
+ 1 Oxidize (Meta game choice with Shop on the rise.)
+ 1 Life from the Loam (I like the Strip / Waste / Fact option or getting a lost Orchard back.)
+ 1 Crop Rotation (I think it serves Oath well.  Again I try to get Oath / Orchard on-line ASAP.)
+ 1 Timetwister (Ignore this.  It's just my thing to always play with all my Power 9.  Although it does come in handy once and a while.)

SB:
- 3 COTV  (Many have commented in this thread and I agree.  COTV doesn’t impact the opponent enough without affecting my game plan to warrant its inclusion.)
- 2 Pyroclasm (Never saw a need for it.)
- 2 Oxidize

+ 1 Smother
+ 1 Hurkyl's Recall
+ 3 Trickbind
+ 1 Rushing River
+ 1 Bogardan Hellkite (I like its removal/pseudo haste (5 to the dome) function.)

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

@ nehpitis

The list you found was for a very different meta in which things like thoughtsieze had not yet been printed and stax was showing up to combat gat if you continue to read the thread there are more current lists running tyrant under discussion, including an interesting one running trike/ titan. I appreciate the interest but I've long since scrapped the list you've found.

I think you should strongly reconsider mana drain it allows you more lines of play than something like delay, mana drain wins you games (especially with titan). Honestly in a build anywhere near similar to the list you've found, I've always had places to put drain mana.

cutting impulse/draw for pitch counters. the math on this just does seem to work out. You seem to be sacrificing consistency for just lucking out and top decking oath/tutor with force/ misd. Things like impulse widen your decision tree and give you more options/ control of the game along with those lines of play.

[Harlequin]

With Merchant Scroll restriction-free for another 3 months, I have decided to post what I refer to as: ELD-Inspired Gush Oath.

At the end of the November Myriad games, It was my good friend Jer vrs ELD in the Finals.  ELD ended up beating Jer (playing Shop Affinity Combo), and we got to chatting after the game.  After some conversation Jer realized that he could have made more agressive plays but found himself attempting to avoid walking into a big drain.  ELD revealed after the match that he does not run any drains.  Rather than what I would call the "standard" GAT package of 2 Drains, 2 Misdirrections - ELD bosts an impressive 4 Misdirrections maindeck.

I'll do my best to Paraphrase his logic behind the Misdirrections.  He reason was two-fold.  Firstly, In GAT at the end of his opponent's turn, any mana left untapped is wasted.  Drain GAT needs to keep UU open each turn to either drain or bluff the drain.  And to compensate for leaving this mana open it often needs to run the instant speed Opt.  By running Misdirrection you accomplish more each turn because you can run Ponder.  Secondly, in the blue-vrs-blue mirror, ELD is confident that if all things are equal, he will win because he is a superior player, with years of GAT experiance.  The card that is "un-equal" is ancestral recall.  An early game "lucksac-recall" from his opponent will be enough to give his opponent the advantage nessisary to overcome skill with luck.  By running MisD, he can midigate his opponent's luck factor and bring the game back to skill... where ELD is more confident he can win.

Taking that philosophy home, I started by making the following change to my Oath deck:
-4 Drains; +3 Misdirrections, +1 Merchant scroll.

After doing this, and playing some games, three things became apparent.  #1) I have now have too much mana, #2) Library of Alexandria is almost always worthless, #3) I have very little to do on turn 1.

-Library, -fetch#6, -regrowth, -metaslot; + Merchant scroll #2, +2 Ponder, +1 Mystical Tutor.

Bringing the Final List to this:
Drainless Gushin' Oath:

4 Forbidden Orchard
5 Fetches
3 Trops
2 Underground
2 Islands
6 Mox + Lotus

4 Oath of Druids
1 Tinker
2 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Triskellion
1 Krosan Reclaimation
1 Flash of Insight

4 Brainstorm
4 Gush
2 Ponder
1 Ancestrall Recall

4 Force of Will
3 Misdirrection
1 * Metagame Control Slot:
   > Currently: Engineered Explosives
   > Other: Tormod's, Wipeaway, Rebuild, 4th MisD

1 Fastbond
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor
2 Merchant Scroll
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Timewalk
1 Research // Development


Some more Detail on Choices:
Merchant Scroll, and Infinite Colorless Mana = I WIN right now.

Two Mox and two lands in play.  Tidespout oathed in, Flash of Insight and Trike still in the deck.  Merchant scroll in hand, with infite off color mana, and 2 blue I have enough to Scroll for Flash of insight, flash for infinite, and kill with Trike.

Ponder... and why I would never run Impulse ever again.
- Ponder can easily be played on turn 1 to find a second land drop.  This alone is enough to warrent ponder in Oath because I need more turn 1 plays.  However it falls very short of a reason why I feel Impulse is strictly inferior to Ponder.
- Here is an example: It's early game and you have one of two of the combo pieces you need: either Oath or Orchard.  You are using either Impulse or Ponder to find the missing 'Target' card.
Remaining Cards:
> 52 total cards left
> 4 of target card (either oath or orchard)
> 7 "bombs" (Lotus, Walk, Recall, Fastbond, DT, Yawg, Mystical, Vamp)
> 3 Creatures

Impulse:
-- 37% chance of "failure" meaning you got no target cards, and no bombos.
-- 28% chance to find a target card
-- 0% chance to get stuck with a creature
-- 10% chance to get BOTH a target and a bomb.  But be forced to pick only one.  Basically 10% chance of getting the better of a bomb and your target ... but ultimately you only get one.

Ponder:
-- 48% chance of initial failure, 38% chance of total failure after reshuffle and draw.
-- 22% chance to find target card in inital 3, 28% to find it after reshuffle and draw.
-- 3% chace to get stuck with a creature after failure, shuffle and draw.
-- 5% chance of getting Bomb AND Target in the initial 3 - and you get to keep them both because it's Ponder
-- 0.7% chance of having two bombs and a target, or 3 bombs ... all of wich you get to keep in the inital 3.  AKA the "pure gold ponder"

The conclusion is that the "replacement" of the shuffle and draw is negligible in a deck of 50~ish cards.  Generally speaking it is represented by around 0.3% to 1% point differance between Impulse and Ponder depending on the goal.  This easily overwhelmed by the the 6% chance to get two or three powerful cards and allow yourself the oportunity to keep them all.  I also did not count the probability of getting Oath + Force backer - taking the force and passing the turn with Oath as topdeck.  A strong play that can be accomplished with Ponder.  Also throw in that Ponder is a whole mana cheaper to boot!  The sorcery speed vrs instant speed is an important consideration but remeber that the list I propose above doesn't need to wait until EOT to tap it's mana.  The only drawback of this is that you have to make your future decissions now - so If you can't cast your target yet, then you may be forced to make choices now rather than after you see what your opponent does durring thier next turn.  Forsight, and knowledge of your opponent's deck and that deck's potential can offset this differance.


"Ok Hot Shot, Now your deck is only like... 12 cards, and a wincondition off GAT - why play Gush Oath over GAT??"

Simple answer: Cheap wins. 

Oath vrs GAT is an interesting game.  You certainly have to EARN your win.  But this is no worse than the GAT Mirror.  By droping an early Oath (analogus to droping the first Dryad in the GAT Mirror) you really put an onus on them to out card you.  By dropping the Oath Bomb, they almost always have to win in one turn - or loose to oath.  The flip side of this coin is GAT's Duresses are arguably stronger against Oath then the GAT Mirror but most points here are a Wash with turn 1 oath being stronger than turn 1 dryad.  Also unless you're playing against ELD GAT your Misdirrections will be more valuable than your opponent's Drains.  Also post board, Oath has more tricks than GAT does.  Extirpates and Tinker->Titan gives an edge to Oath.

Stax can be a shutout.  With Oath you either Get there or get suffocated trying.  You don't have to 'earn' your win like GAT does against most shop decks.  Maindeck EE gives you a contigency plan against Spheres.Dec as well.

Goblins and Agro.  This is another really cheap win.  Mulling aggressivly to an Oath (no orchard needed) can steal you a cheap win.  Again, by playing an Oath you really stress the aggro deck to win in the next turn or lose.  Much more so than a turn 1 dryad does in GAT.

Combo is an advantage to GAT.  Both decks (GAT and Oath) are equally on thier toes.  Duress gives an advantage to GAT I would say, so perhaps in a combo heavy meta - GAT would be a stronger choice. However Post board, Oath has more options than GAT - Extirpate and Tinker/Oath -> Plats gives viability to Oath.  Needless to say, both GAT and Oath have a bumpy road vrs Combo - GAT is an ATV, but Oath is a Jeep that gets to install great shock absorbers game 2-3.

So All in all, Tyrant Oath seems like a Rock Solid meta choice.

Notable Weekness:
I have no maindeck bounce spell.  Instead I have EE, and I have research and developement.  So I have answers to basically everything vintage can throw at me ... I just have to really work to get them.  That being said, Tidespout is a strong answer to any perminant that may be hindering me.  EE can easily mop up any Meddling Mage or Chalice @ 2 troubles that would prevent me from getting Oath on the board.

Current Sideboard (for referance, I haven't changed this much at all) ===
4 Oxidize
3 Extirpate
3 Pithing Needle
1 Platinum Angel
1 Sudering Titan
1 Blazing Archon
1 ISLAND
1 * Open Slot - 99% sold on Wipe Away.

Being down a land maindeck is dangerous.  I really have been happy with boarding the 3rd Basic Island to bring in against anything running Wasteland.

[Duncan]

Now that you've cut drains it is more difficult to hardcast Tyrant. Do you think this has made the deck weaker because of its greater reliability on oath itself?

[Negator13]

Why no Duress in your build, Harlequin?

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

I'm not sure your thought processes on impulse is entirely correct, true your not always going to have an oath in the top 4 cards of your library, but you get TWICE the vision that gush gives you, and casting gush just doesn't have much synergy in a build like this only 2x scroll and 4 non island lands. Not to mention your not always looking for oath, some times you just want to find a force/drain/counter effect. I also think cutting mana drain for misd not only makes hard casting tyrant or trike more difficult, but also takes more of an investment in defending oath in a counter war (ultimately, making it more difficult to resolve oath). When trying to resolve oath in a control heavy meta, casting force and misd is a 4 card investment where as force and drain is a three card investment, considering you need the oath as well, your looking at a needed 5 card hand for double force effect, with the addition of better advantaged cards like duress(a highly played card in the current meta) and REB's your just not in a favorable position, especially when brainstorming and finding your self not only needing a force/misd, but a blue card as well instead of being able to pull a drain or other single card effect.

[Harlequin]

@ Duress - I really don't think Duress does much to advance to Oath plan.  Duress is actually a fairly terrible card.  Duress isn't even a true 1 for 1.  Because the person who is getting Duressed has not commited any resources to casting the card you take.  So in a vacume, Duress is not even as good as the card Counter Spell.  The power of Duress is it allows decks that need to commit to a win the chance to see what the opponent has up his sleeve.  Oath is differant than basically any other combo because It really couldn't care less about what the opponent has in hand.  Consider this Combo example, you can commit a hand full of Rits and moxen and cast Will on meaty GY full of tutors and draw - but if Will doesn't resolve you are almost certainly going to lose.  In this case Duress is strong because you can use the information of what they have in hand to ensure you're victory.  In Oath, the information about thier hand is more or less irrelevent.  Any Bounce, or stifle effects are just glorified timewalks against Oath.  Duress may help you win a counter war over oath - but Misdirrection can as well.  The only reason I would really want to run Duress is so I can take an opponent's Duress - which to me is a blantantly terrible play.  Not only that but I don't like risking the turn 1 non-basic fetch against an unknown opponent.  Nor do I like to give away my deck with turn 1 orchard (plus they get a turn 1 beater to boot). 

I think GAT is not a control deck.  Some builds of it have a control-esq feel, but in my book any deck that plays mostly in the main-phase is Combo.  So Duress in GAT is similar to Duress in Combo because a GAT player doesn't want to spend X-Life and burn all thier Gushes just to have Drayd bounced w/ force backer.  Also GAT Needs to "storm" as well, and Duress is a nice pocket spell.  This can be comperable to Tyrant Oath needing playable spells post-oath, but I would say comperable in function but not magnitude.  I would say that GAT depends on having long chains of playables; having a 3/3 dryad is no where near as backbreaking as boucning two permenants with Tyrant.

@ Drains in Oath - The bottom line drawback of running drains is running a higher land count.   Trust me when I say, I really like playing Oath with Drains.  And in a Drain/Control Meta (aka the Gifts-Summer Meta) Drains keep you in step with other drain decks.  If GAT slows thier plan by running 4 drains, I would highly suggest that Oath Follow suit.  So in this sense I agree with H3x in so much as For a control meta, you can't afford the loss of drains, any more than you can afford the card disadvantage of MisD.  However, I HUGELY disagree that we are in a Control Meta. 

In blue-vrs-blue game, Drain can only protect oath If I have had 3 land drops or hit lotus or Sapphire.  So you really are looking at drain being effective in protecting Oath on turn 3-5.  Duress on Turn 1 is great for a turn 2 oath - IF you have it all in your hand.  With out it in hand, Duress is a stall card, wich will offer you no counter protection for oath until turn 3.  With MisD you keep in-step card for card with your opponent in a counter war on turn 2.  If you have Oath + MisD If you win the counterwar you are Up an Oath and Have got 2 for 2 with your opponent.  If you Lose the counter war, your opponent likely is down 4 cards to your 3. ** Unless they drained (on turn 2) which puts them 5 mana (which they can likely not spend) and 1 card up.**  So in this case, MisD and Force keep you basically in step, card for card with your opponent.  There is ONE and only ONE card that will put one player up in the early turns - ANCESTRAL RECALL.  A 'blue' player that lands Ancestral in the first 3 turns will be ahead on the card-for-card war.  Misdirrection not only prevents this boost, it REVERSES it - something that Drain does not do. 

** - A point about the "unless your opponent Drains" comment... No deck on the current meta radar runs 4 drains.  Some GAT builds run 2, while others run 0.  Bomberman is basically the last control deck left, and matches with Bomberman are few and far between - alos they often only runs 3!  To wax philosophic about this: Drains are typically only good when the other blue decks have Drains to fight...  Drain is an interesting card.  If you are the only one running Drain, then it medocre at best, If you are the only one NOT running Drain, then you are a huge disadvantage. 

@ Drain -> Hardcast Creature.

I find the oportunity to do this is usually once in two full tournements.  You have SO many factors working against you to make this good.  You need:
3 Lands
To have the drain
Win the counterwar
NOT have an oath already in play
Have Drain
Drain something for 5
Have the creature in hand

Not only that, but if you're draining something for 5, and winning the counterwar, it's likely either you drained a Gush, or you won a counterwar over something important, meaning you're opponent is probably already losing, so it's not really 'winning' you the game - its just ending the game. 

With Merchant Scrolls and Ponder in the deck, Finding Oaths and avoiding creatures just seams easier than before.  Call it luck, but in an entire tournement and probably close to 100 test games, I don't feel like I rely on oath any more or less than before.

@ Impulse Vrs Gush??
Fistly, No where in my explaination of why I dislike Impulse did I mention Gush.  Thats kinda like saying, Why wouldn't you run Tyrant instead of Brainstorm - Tyrant attacks for 5!  The cards are totally differant.  My comparision was between two Filtering cards: Impulse and Ponder.  Gush is not a Filter.  Oath has always had an issue finding a suitable "Engine" for Card Advantage.  Oath (because it runs huge creatures) Always has had a need to run more than 4 Brainstorms as Filter cards.  Impulse previously was a suitable compliment to brainstorm, however not any more.  Ponder in my oppinion has proven better than impulse for oath.   

Gush is Card Advantage.  It's Handsize, not selection.  The other two popular engins are: Intuition-AK, Thirst for Knowledge.  Running Oath without any way to recoup handsize is another option and I have tried it as well.  But none of these are as stable or consistant as the Gush Engin is now.

Adopting Gush is not easy, It requires throwing away Oath 'staples' but personally, I have never had as more sucess than with Gush Oath.  It takes some getting used to, but If you haven't seriously tested it (not goldfish, but tested) then you are missing out. 

[Rock Lee]

To add food for discussion. Here are the decklists of the two Oath decks who made top 16 in MTG Gambler's Vintage Open in Spain.

14º Aurelio Crespo - GushPlatinum

2 Platinum Angel
4 Force of Will
4 Pact of Negation
3 Duress
3 Mana Drain
1 Misdirection
4 Brainstorm
4 Gush
2 Merchant Scroll
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Echoing Truth
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Oath of Druids
1 Gaea's Blessing
1 Fastbond
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Island
3 Forbidden Orchard
2 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand

SB:
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Simic Skyswallower
2 Oxidize
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Sundering Titan
1 Darkblast
1 Engineered Explosives


&


16º Carlos del Mazo - Tyrant Oath

1 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Eternal Witness
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Force of Will
3 Mana Drain
3 Thoughtseize
1 Misdirection
4 Brainstorm
2 Cunning Wish
2 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Repeal
1 Deep Analisys
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Krosan Reclamation
4 Oath of Druids
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Island
2 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Stran
4 Forbidden Orchard

SB:
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Trickbind
1 Brain Freeze
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Research//Development
1 Rebuild
1 Echoing Truth
1 Misdirection
1 Tinker
1 Simic Skyswallower
1 Platinum Angel

It seems that both Platinum oath and Tyrant oath are still running rampant. Both builds seem to be very different from each other. And separate from both builds described by 100 yr H3x and Harlequin. Those crazy Europeans have done it again!

[Nehptis]

I've recently played against Platinum Oath on MWS and found it to be very interesting.  Effective enough for me to consider testing it over Angel Oath (Akroma / Razia).

Pros:
I like that a deck other than Flash can capitalize on the power of Pact of Neg.  As 100 Yr's sig says, "hard casting force of will is like playing it for free!"  Well, Pact is free with no drawbacks when Plats is on the board!

I also like that the Angels can come into play a variety of ways.  Oathing is a given.  But, I like that the very powerful Tinker plan can be used, as well.  And as Platz's are artifacts hard casting them is very do-able.  Especially, off Drain mana.  Raz and Akroma are much more challenging to hard cast if you are forced to do so.


Cons:
What I don't like about Platinum Oath is that it is slower than Angel Oath and Tyrant Oath.  Also, I don't like that my creatures are susceptible to Oxidize and Ancient Grudge.  But, you take the good with the bad when using Plats, I guess.

Re: Gush.  I'll need further info or testing to be convinced that it’s the best engine for Oath.  Ponder could be just as effective here.  Gush is horrible in Angel (Akroma / Razia) Oath.  Since you do not want to draw creatures with such challenging casting costs.  With Platz Oath, although it's not ideal to have to hard cast them, it's do-able especially with Drains as I mentioned above.  Also, I do miss Strip / Waste.  But, they don't jive with the Gush plan.

On first glance and with no testing of my own.  I'd consider these changes.  But, I think I'd try it exactly as written first.

-3 Duress --> +2 MisD (I link Pitch counters vs. Duress) / +1 Oxidize or Smother (meta game slot)
-1 Volcanic Island --> +1 Orchard (I don't need REB or Grudge in my Board)
-1 Flooded Strand --> +1 Island

If there are any Platz Oath players out there I'd like to read more about the deck…thanks!

[Rock Lee]

I have played against Harlequin's various builds of oath, and various random oath players in tournaments. (trust me when I say Harlequin's tried LOTS of them). The only form of oath which is dangerous is the one where you don't get another turn after they oath.

I can reliably beat, with nearly any deck, platinum angel, razia, akroma. But a tidespout is beyond indestructable and a force to be reckoned with. So long as your opponent has instants, and they should if they're half decent, the game ends when tidespout hits the table. You may play out 2 or 3 more turns. but your hopes of pulling out are toast.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

I would have to agree that tyrant oath is the way to go. I really like the 2x tidespout 1x trike with flash of insight. As far as platinum angel, as far as testing goes, I really don't think oath is the shell for it. If your interested in platz and pact, platinum control is a blast to play.

I'm a little confused as to why everyone is dropping duress for misD. My recent oath build have been focusing on resolving oath consistently as fast as possible,running things like imperial seal. Aside from lucking out and top decking oath/getting it in your opener. Usually I've been resolving Oath with 3 mana in play, duress will clear out the counter just as well as misd will, for less cards, and has more applications.

[Rock Lee]

I'm a little confused as to why everyone is dropping duress for misD. My recent oath build have been focusing on resolving oath consistently as fast as possible,running things like imperial seal. Aside from lucking out and top decking oath/getting it in your opener. Usually I've been resolving Oath with 3 mana in play, duress will clear out the counter just as well as misd will, for less cards, and has more applications.

Misd gives you advantage against blue, as harlequin did the math for.

You get to cast Oath with zero mana floating. Therefore a turn earlier. with the same protection duress would afford. (duress grabs 1 card at no resource loss to them) (Misd protects against two cards with two cards, but allows you to go faster)

I'm not saying Misd should take Duress's spot, I think they perform great control without overlapping on duties. One is reactive, one is proactive. I think Misd works better than Duress if you're playing Gush. Not only because of the reactive potential and not being Chalice/Duress Sorcery speed oriented. I think if you're playing man-lands and lots of sorcery speeds, Duress is better.

They can easily both fit in the same deck though. Just be mindful of their varied attitudes. (yes cards have attitudes)

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

@ rock lee

I'm not at all saying you can't run duress and misd at the same time, I just noticed that the deck list went -duress and + misd and in a deck like this the serve mostly the same function.

I'm just not sure I agree with the "math" on this. Maybe my testing results are different from yours, but usually, I'm resolving oath with more than exactly enough mana to cast oath, aside from play that really required minimal play skill to set up, ie orchard mox oath go/ top deck oath 1st draw. I definitely covered the "lucky opener" issue in previous posts, and it seems to have been ignored. It seems that duress although theoretically slower, Yet the vast majority of the time not mechanically, offers more of a consistent game plan. not to mention there's a lot less 2 for 1ing your against self. I will admit that some times misdirection (before this thread I was often running 2x misd in my oath list) is just what you need, but this is few and far between.

I'm also not sure how you can say duress doesn't deplete your opponents resources. There is more to resources than open mana. Most of the time your most valuable resources are cards in hand, especially when playing a control style deck, and being able to manipulate your opponents hand wins you games. I've seen turn one duress just simply destroy some ones game time and time again. I just don't see how removing someones tutor/force/ scroll target is not depriving them of a resource. Not to mention it lets you know your opponents game plan in the process (sometime ever more valuable than the loss of a card on there end).

Also I really don't see chalice set to 1 being a viable threat against oath, usually my game plan against stax/ chalice decks is to sb in oxidize,  a 1 coster, because chalice for 2 counters chalice for one, and 90% of the time, thats what your opponent will go for against oath when playing chalice. Not to mention misdirection tends to be absolutely terrible vs decks running chalice, often having no legal target in the entire deck.

[Harlequin]

I'm try and bullet out my points about Duress, because I think alot of them were overlooked in my (overly) long post.

What is Duress:
- It's not a 1 for 1, its like a 0.75 for 1.  This is because if you pull out a card from thier hand, they haven't yet paid the cost for it.  In this respect (and this respect ALONE) it's worse than Counter spell because counter spell is a true 1 for 1.
- As you pointed out, the value of duress -is- information.

Conclusion:
- Why does the Oath plan need information?  Duress is powerful with decks that need to go "all in" on one turn.  Losing a counter war over Oath is usually not GG... where Gush tendrils losing the counter war over will is likely 'the scoop phase'.

What Is Misdirrection:
- 80% of the time it's a 2 for 2.  In this Drain-lite meta mostly for Force of will
- 10-15ish% of the time its a 4 for 2.  When you steal Ancestral.  In the merchant scroll heavy meta, this more common than in the Gift's meta.
- 5~ish% of the time, you get another type of 2 for 2, where you MisD something like Swords to Plow, or Thoughtsieze or something of that nature.
- < 5% of the time you're going truely 1 for 2, where you get something like REB, Drain, or Pact.  These cards are just not in the current meta.  I guess moveing a STP off tyrant and onto a lowly token is like a 1.2 for 2.

Edited with more...
I also would like to point out that I don't think Duress never belongs in any oath build.  I just don't think the optimal oath deck would want it.  I think the best fit for duress in oath is a "Drawless" build.  Cantrips and filter spells are decent in oath, especailly for avoiding creatures in hand.  In an Oath deck that cannot rebuild a hand, Duress can be valuable. 

This is what I would call "Tempo Oath" not really "Control Oath."  The biggest hang up I have is why in the world would ANYONE play Tempo Oath?  Tempo decks need cards that a multi-function.  Confidant, Cutpurse, Hynotic, Meddling Mage, Trigon Preditor, Mindcensor, Magus of the Moon.... there is a long long list of vintage quality Tempo-Beaters.  Without these Tempo beaters you are allways going find a hard time balanceing Tempo-Card, Win-Cards, and Mana.  Without the right combination every hand.  For every balanced hand, your going thave either a hand that goes disrupt, disrupt, distrupt,.... and lose in the late game becasue you coun't find the win.  Or draw the win card and not have the disruption to back your opponent not-wining or countering Oath.


Gushin Tyrant Oath is a A Control Shell, with a combo win.  An architype that has consistanly been proven effective.  GAT, old-Gifts are primary examples, but others include: Control Slaver (marginally combo) or old-Drain-TPS.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

Q: why does the oath plan need/want information?
A: Because it wins you games.

I also think your vastly over estimating the "tapping the land" thing. most of the time your attempting to resolve oath with more than exactly the right amount of mana. The vast majority of the time I'm sitting on 3 mana in play, it just seems  I could tap my land and use a resource the refreshes every turn and a card from my hand, or burn to cards out of my hand (use a more valuable resource). I've definitely pointed out that the strength of duress is being able to snag a drain, pact, reb or force for a 1 for 1 trade in addition to information.

Drain, REB, and pact not in the current meta? I'm assuming this is why our opinions differ so much. Last top 8 results in my meta and 2x platinum control and 2x empty gush. It's been pretty relevant, half the top 8 is running these cards. Not to mention Shop is still around, as well as misdirection itself  being terrible against duress. If some one duresses your initial counter (which you seem to be running only 4 of) before a business spell all the misd back up in the world doesn't mean a thing. If your not seeing any of this in you meta, by all mean play the misd  , given that meta, I would definitely highly consider playing a similar list.

In any event, I'd like to shift the focus of this thread away from misd and duress in oath. I really like the combination of running 2x tyrant and trike. How reliant is main deck R/D? its never been the type of card I've felt right main decking have you had second thoughts  about it? Your sb looks really solid, and also like at agree with the inclusion of wipe away in sb.


side note: I've definitely never believed that you thought duress didn't belong in any other build ever.
I'd tend to believe that tempo oath build would be more characterized by the use of cards like chalice of the void and wasteland. Duress can definitely be used as a tempo card, but is far to versatile to be thought of as only a temp card.