UNBAN SHAHRAZAD

[Gexzilla10]

This matter has nothing to do with power level and shouldn't have anything to do with the function of the card. Any intellegent player of Shahrazad will stack up the cards in the main game and set them to the side, not relocate to another table. Stacking up the cards takes 15 seconds max, add another 15 to explain what the card does and it takes as much or less time than explaining a semi-complex combo like tendrils. The problem I have with the ban is that there was no reason for it. There was no explanation given other than it could draw out an imaginary tournament. As not only a player of Shahrazad, but also a player of Magic, I will not allow Magic's officials to abuse their power without reason and neither should any of you.

[diopter]

This matter has nothing to do with power level and shouldn't have anything to do with the function of the card. Any intellegent player of Shahrazad will stack up the cards in the main game and set them to the side, not relocate to another table. Stacking up the cards takes 15 seconds max, add another 15 to explain what the card does and it takes as much or less time than explaining a semi-complex combo like tendrils. The problem I have with the ban is that there was no reason for it. There was no explanation given other than it could draw out an imaginary tournament. As not only a player of Shahrazad, but also a player of Magic, I will not allow Magic's officials to abuse their power without reason and neither should any of you.

Did you even read the article? Organized Play asked the DCI to ban Shahrazad because somebody was using it to draw out games in a tournament.

[Philatio]

I actually don't find that funny and would appreciate it if people would stop making that joke.   It's just inappropriate and mean.   There's really no place for it.   Not to mention untrue.

C'mon, lighten up, gramps.  It made me chuckle.  Humor is in the eye of the beholder!  And how can you berate a guy by calling his comment mean, when you're the meanest decker of them all?

  - 15 to the dome!

[Jacob Orlove]

Humor may indeed be in the eye of the beholder, but that doesn't automatically make it acceptable material for TMD. I'm glad to see that Ephraim retracted his post, so let's just stay on topic here and not go further with this, please.

This post was made with my Moderator Hat on, for those posters who need to see red text before they start to behave.

[Vegeta2711]

No, it might require a significant time investment.

Tell me how long you think it'll take for people to physically move the cards to another location, shuffle up and start a brand new game; while making sure no mistakes are made in the transition for the current game and start of the new game. That's not a 'might', you 'will' need to take a decent chunk of time to do so at most tournament settings.

I'm with Ephraim on this basically, but I have a larger concern: did they really not have anything better to do with their time than to monkey around with an obscure backwater card from 13 years ago? Are things going that swimmingly?

To be fair here, subgames cause headaches. Like you saw the billion page long thread on how suspend and subgames interact right?

[Liam-K]

I wonder how much useful design space removing subgames from the comprehensive rules creates.  Seriously guys... this card is a way bigger burden on magic than chaos orb.

I'm fine with this, and would possibly be fine with banning City In A Bottle.  There's cards that make you incredulous at what they do within the rules, then there's cards that kill your suspension of disbelief, as it were, and make you incredulous that the game would ask you do to that.  There's a clear line between "wtf that's too good" and "wtf that makes no sense at all".  For example, I'd probably even be fine with banning Goblin Game, but wouldn't be if it was pick a number rather than hide objects.

[Greistal]

Recall Forsythe's logic on keeping Land Tax on the Legacy banned list. A strategy that is centered around not playing lands is considered unnatural by the DCI. Likewise here, a strategy that effectively and regularly forces opponents to concede games before they begin because of time constraints is considered unnatural by Organized Play.

Mmmh... I find way more "unnatural" for Magic the existence of a strong deck who does not use mana.
But maybe it's just me.

Greistal

[Norm4eva]

Yeah, exactly.
Land Tax = unnatural strategy.  Ichorid = unique and fresh approach to Magic!
That's why I'm saying that this is a very cautious place to tread for the game.  Restricting cards and subsequent strategies by mandate because "it doesn't seem like a game of Magic to me" is dreadful arbitration.  I see both sides of the coin here, but it's really starting to feel like Vintage has let itself become SO introverted in its execution that people would rather allow format staples to continue on their path towards the critical mass we've all been silently dreading instead of facing the possibility that something might come along that challenges the format.  Look at the way people react to Ichorid.  Is it telling that Magic's oldest, most powerful format can't deal with a White Sorcery that ISN'T Balance without removing it from competitive play?  I'm sorry, I thought this was the format of Mana Drain, Force of Will, Duress, Cabal Therapy, etc.  I'm not even naming silver bullets here, these are format staples.  The common answer to why Yawg Will shouldn't be banned is because "eh, I can counter it."
For that matter, why isn't Shah just restricted?  If we're talking about the potential for abuse that four copies allows for, why not just one?  Even one subgame is out of the question?

[Gexzilla10]

The reason given by Forsythe that OP asked for the ban doesnt seem to hold any weight. Why would Forsythe let OP basically do his job for him and ban a card they deemed potentially problematic? Why, if there was a tournament where Shahrazad was a problem, didn't Forsythe cite that source? Why would Forsythe and OP claim that Shahrazad is a problem without understanding the card's mechanics? To say that Shahrazad takes too long shows they didn't read the caveat about being able to concede the subgame at any time. To say that Shahrazad has the potential to become abused in the future can be said about any card. As you can see, there are far too many holes in the story given to us. If they had given a good reason with a definate situation where Shahrazad was abused, then the ban could be a little more understandable. But they didn't do that and until they do, no one should stand for a banning without reason.

[diopter]

The reason given by Forsythe that OP asked for the ban doesnt seem to hold any weight. Why would Forsythe let OP basically do his job for him and ban a card they deemed potentially problematic? Why, if there was a tournament where Shahrazad was a problem, didn't Forsythe cite that source? Why would Forsythe and OP claim that Shahrazad is a problem without understanding the card's mechanics? To say that Shahrazad takes too long shows they didn't read the caveat about being able to concede the subgame at any time. To say that Shahrazad has the potential to become abused in the future can be said about any card. As you can see, there are far too many holes in the story given to us. If they had given a good reason with a definate situation where Shahrazad was abused, then the ban could be a little more understandable. But they didn't do that and until they do, no one should stand for a banning without reason.

There was a reason - you are ignoring it.

[zeus-online]

I don't know, if they banned it because it dosn't feel like magic, then why the hell are they making Planeswalker cards? That just dosn't feel like magic to me.

Shahrazad was always this weird casual card to me, that noone really used... I don't understand why anyone could support the ban of a card that has never done any harm to any competitive metagame... I fully understand the banning of ante and dexterity cards, but shahrazad is an entirely different matter for me.

If stalling was the reason, then why are we allowed to play with Stasis? That card stalls games to no end...Sure it's unplayable, but that could be said about shahrazad aswell.

I think the DCI is making some really weird and harmfull acts* as of late, which makes me question the insight they have to what is basicly their own game.

/Zeus

*Time vault's errata from one weird wording, to an entirely other weird wording, the banning of shahrazad...the unrestriction of Gush.

[Zherbus]

This thread isn't really being anything but an eyesore.