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Author Topic: Keeping Vintage Tournaments Fair and Thriving- Tournament Organizers’ Solidarity  (Read 18691 times)
Anusien
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« Reply #60 on: January 18, 2008, 01:41:26 am »

Let me as clear as I can.

Under your Vintage guidelines, who decides which players are suspended instead of merely disqualified?  Specifically how does that person make that decision?
« Last Edit: January 18, 2008, 03:01:18 am by Anusien » Logged

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« Reply #61 on: January 18, 2008, 01:42:14 am »

Quote
There are two types of acceptable proxies for use at these events. The first and most basic is taking a basic land card and writing the details of the card on it. The second method is to take a card that shares some of the characteristics with the card that is being proxied and erase any characteristics that do not match, replacing them with the correct characteristics.

under current rules, Dan Cunningham's proxies would be illegal, correct? Not picking on Dan, I think his proxies are great - but -

the are neither a basic land with details, nor are they (say in the case of a mox sapphire) a zero costing artifact with replacement text.

This seems like a shame to me.  
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« Reply #62 on: January 18, 2008, 10:07:50 pm »

No one person would be solely responsible for suspension. Just as in DCI suspensions, that decision would be made based on the feedback and reports from the player in question, judges, tournament organizers, and other players at that event.

While certain stylish proxies would not be allowed by the UTOG guidelines (which are straight from the SCG guidelines), it would not take much effort to make sure these fine proxies contain the relevant information and still retain their unique flair. The importance of clarity when using proxies necessitates such guidelines.
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« Reply #63 on: January 18, 2008, 11:41:39 pm »

Under the UTOG you posted, Nate Pease is banned for two years.  Who made that decision?  Why did they decide the way they did?  How did they come to the 2-year mark?  Considering it's the biggest thing to happen to UTOG, explaining it fully could reassure a lot of people about the system's intentions and motives.
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« Reply #64 on: January 19, 2008, 12:46:05 pm »

Under the UTOG you posted, Nate Pease is banned for two years.  Who made that decision?  Why did they decide the way they did?  How did they come to the 2-year mark?  Considering it's the biggest thing to happen to UTOG, explaining it fully could reassure a lot of people about the system's intentions and motives.

You have to stop being such a negative nancy. Dan already told you, the UTOG is only a set of guidelines that help TOs make decisions. TOs still make the decisions. It gives TOs a standard (that they can voluntarily choose to adopt or not adopt), instead of the mishmash of tournament rules that we have now. What is so hard to understand about this?
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« Reply #65 on: January 19, 2008, 01:03:55 pm »

Under the UTOG you posted, Nate Pease is banned for two years.  Who made that decision?  Why did they decide the way they did?  How did they come to the 2-year mark?  Considering it's the biggest thing to happen to UTOG, explaining it fully could reassure a lot of people about the system's intentions and motives.

You have to stop being such a negative nancy. Dan already told you, the UTOG is only a set of guidelines that help TOs make decisions. TOs still make the decisions. It gives TOs a standard (that they can voluntarily choose to adopt or not adopt), instead of the mishmash of tournament rules that we have now. What is so hard to understand about this?

Anusien has a very valid point.  Who decided on two years, etc etc.  I mean, sure, TO's can decide if they want to be part of this UTOG thing or not, but personally if I were running a tournament, I would want some explanation about how things like that are carried out before I agreed to them so that I wasn't getting myself (and my players) into something I didn't fully understand.  The idea of standard proxies and generally standard rules is fine, but when you decide that you have the authority to ban people from any UTOG tourney, I feel like as a player I deserve some explanation of who makes the decisions, what the investigation and appeals process is, etc., before I decide to even attend one of your tourneys.  If I show up to some random UTOG tourney and the judge decides he doesn't like me and bans me, am I just screwed or what?

This stuff needs to be publically explained, not just for TO's but for the sake of potential players, before I would consider supporting the idea.  I don't think there is something inherently wrong with it, but unless you can provide a fair, reasonable system for suspensions and related problems which require extensive investigation, I think the system is overstepping it's abilities.
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« Reply #66 on: January 19, 2008, 11:31:01 pm »

This whole thing with this article just seems like another chance to bring up the fact that Dan banned Nate Pease from tournaments.  It contains no information that a T.O. wouldn't already know. 

Just to remind the community once again that there was never any evidence that he cheated anyone at any time.  It was a decision made by Dan and Ray to not allow him at their tournaments because he had deck registration errors at tournaments, and he was a cocky 17 year old kid that won a lot of tournaments.

The fact that almost a year after they did this, it's still coming up is a little ridiculous.  The fact that he's still banned from tournaments after a year for doing nothing is even more ridiculous.
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« Reply #67 on: January 20, 2008, 02:14:49 am »

Just to remind the community once again that there was never any evidence that he cheated anyone at any time.  It was a decision made by Dan and Ray to not allow him at their tournaments because he had deck registration errors at tournaments, and he was a cocky 17 year old kid that won a lot of tournaments.

Nate had a method for drawing an extra card off his deck without an opponent knowing.  He showed off his "technique" to at least one person, if not many more.  This is truth.

Nate Pease bribed an opponent for a win at TMC Open 1.  This has been determined fact.

The main line between cheating and just commiting an infraction is intent.  Nate knew at the Beanie Exchange that his decklist had an error and CONSCIENTOUSLY chose to do nothing to fix it.  This is factual.

I take my integrity very seriously.  Please edit your previous post to make it fully accurate.

If you feel any of the above is false, please feel free to discuss this matter with me via PM.
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« Reply #68 on: January 20, 2008, 10:37:47 am »

I'm just going to let it go ray, it happened over a year ago.  I am not going to say you were right, because I don't think you were but that doesn't stop me from still being your friend.
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« Reply #69 on: January 21, 2008, 06:27:31 pm »

It is the responsibility of judges and tournament organizers to ensure a fair and enjoyable environment in order to maintain and expand the playing community. Players may disagree with themselves or their friends being suspended for infractions that undermine the integrity of tournaments. Nevertheless, these standards of fairness must be maintained in order for tournaments to survive and thrive. There are those who will disagree with some tournament guidelines in any form, whether DCI, UTOG, et alius. There will be those who seek to circumvent or ignore them. Certainly guidelines may be unclear or subject to revision for improvement, but the underlying belief in fairness and integrity is unimpeachable. No reasonable discussion toward improvement of policy can occur without an abatement of aggression toward those who are working to craft and uphold these principles. These principles should be embraced by all parties with an interest in maintaining the community, including players, judges, and tournament organizers.
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« Reply #70 on: January 21, 2008, 07:20:21 pm »

It is the responsibility of judges and tournament organizers to ensure a fair and enjoyable environment in order to maintain and expand the playing community. Players may disagree with themselves or their friends being suspended for infractions that undermine the integrity of tournaments. Nevertheless, these standards of fairness must be maintained in order for tournaments to survive and thrive. There are those who will disagree with some tournament guidelines in any form, whether DCI, UTOG, et alius. There will be those who seek to circumvent or ignore them. Certainly guidelines may be unclear or subject to revision for improvement, but the underlying belief in fairness and integrity is unimpeachable. No reasonable discussion toward improvement of policy can occur without an abatement of aggression toward those who are working to craft and uphold these principles. These principles should be embraced by all parties with an interest in maintaining the community, including players, judges, and tournament organizers.
This is true, but sort of irrelevant.  Personally, I think having a uniform set of guidelines is a good idea, but I am very questionable about your idea of suspended players.  Since this seems to be an important part of the system, so much so that you have banned players without a process, I am absolutely curious.

I don't know all of the facts.  I don't know whether or not Nate Pease is a cheater or whether he deserves to be banned.  I just want to understand the system.

Who decided Nate Pease should be banned for 2 years?  How did they make that decision?
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« Reply #71 on: January 21, 2008, 11:13:53 pm »

...No reasonable discussion toward improvement of policy can occur without an abatement of aggression toward those who are working to craft and uphold these principles. These principles should be embraced by all parties with an interest in maintaining the community, including players, judges, and tournament organizers...

I will unequivocally oppose "universal" guidelines that are not sufficiently specific.  While I can certainly agree that fairness and integrity are desirable, something that is going to purport to suspend players from all unsanctioned vintage tournaments under the guidelines needs to be extremely specific.  As the rules stand now, they are not even close, as Anusien has pointed out.  While I have questions about other areas, this is the big one.  This isn't about "aggression toward those working to craft and uphold these principles"; it's about questioning what has been drafted and how it will be applied.  I will not simply embrace these rules because they exist in some form, nor should others.

Anusien's statement of "Who decided?  How did they decide?" remains unanswered.
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« Reply #72 on: January 22, 2008, 12:39:04 am »

This thread is a specific reason why the tournament organizers need to work together to decide on a universal set of rules. In New England we have a dedicated set of TO's who run events on a steady monthly basis. We also are lucky enough to have a select few people who work their tails off to hold large events that rival (and pull more people) than SCG does.  These organizers put a lot of time and effort into keeping the new england vintage community strong and healthy. However, Yare and Anusien bring up some very valuable questions.

Who makes these decisions?
How do they make these decisions?

Both of these questions basically comes down to this answer: the people who take on the risk of being a tournament organizer.  To be honest, most of these TO's take a huge financial risk by holding these tournaments, and it is my opinion that they should be able to impose whatever restrictions they feel is necessary to continue to have a healthy player base. I believe it is a player myth that holding vintage tournaments is a cash cow.  If anyone thinks that Ray, Eric, Dave or Dan are buying houses with their tournament cash is nuts.

There doesn't seem to be much discussion about the proxy, or prizes section of the rules. they seem to be pretty well explained, and I am sure there will be clarification at each tournament.

However, the continued question in this thread continues to be....Why is Nate Pease Banned, and Who made that Decision?

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=31395.0

That should answer that question in as much detail as anyone could want. However, I want to echo something that Eric stated in that thread which I feel is very important.

"We do not have a DCI to protect us.  We have to handle this ourselves."

ELD has a right to run his tournament as he sees fit...and it seems the best way is to provide enforcement of the UTOG consistently across the board.

These TO's are going out of their way to provide the players with the best play environment they can.  If they want to propose a Universal set of rules in which to keep tournaments consistent and fair, so be it. I think all of the arguments about who made which decisions is moot.  This is a collaboration by a lot of the people mentioned. 

If you were going to run a tournament in New England, to which resource would you turn first? I know without question that I would apply the Rules these organizers have worked hard to implement in their own establishments across the board.  Consistency is key. These organizers provide that consistency. Having players whom thrive on creating havoc in your tournaments is annoying. Kick them out, and ask them not to return. In my opinion Pease should be Banned, not suspended, based on his actions after the fact. 

If you read these rules, and do not embrace them and work towards creating consistent environments, that is you own decision. Anusien and Yare, you asked some great questions. I tried to answer a few of them as best I can being an outside source of information. After reviewing this information, my hope is that both of you will support the UTOG, and the discussion can explore ways to improve the policy it is trying to enforce.

my personal opinion is that these people are private business owners, and should be allowed the freedom to exercise business judgements at will. I am most likely on one side of a spectrum, where others do not feel this should be allowed.
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« Reply #73 on: January 22, 2008, 01:57:01 am »

Thanks for the link.  But... you completely misunderstand me.  I am not questioning why Nate Pease is banned from Dan Yarrington's or Ray Robilliard's tournaments.  As TOs, they are both within their rights to ban specific players from their store.  I believe that even if their tournaments were DCI sanctioned, they could still ban whoever they wanted from tournaments.  Dan and Ray have sufficient evidence, to their opinion, that Nate committed acts of Fraud and Cheating.  That's fine.  Some other TOs do not hold the same opinion, and they don't ban Nate.  That's fine too.

My question holds specifically with UTOG.  Why is Nate Pease banned?  Who made the decision to ban him from UTOG?  Why is he banned for two years?  Who decided on that time period?  From everything I can gather in this thread, Dan Yarrington made that decision.  If he did, I'm curious about his criteria.  For that matter, will Dan Yarrington be making sole banning decisions for UTOG?  If not, who will?  Were those people involved in the Nate Pease banning?
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« Reply #74 on: January 22, 2008, 12:05:15 pm »

The question as to who decides who has been and who would be suspended has been answered.

No one person would be solely responsible for suspension. Just as in DCI suspensions, that decision would be made based on the feedback and reports from the player in question, judges, tournament organizers, and other players at that event.

There is no omnipotent individual that is in control of suspending players, not myself nor any other tournament organizer. There is no fiat system where a tournament official simply swings a ban-hammer and a player is suddenly suspended. Players are responsible for their own actions. Judges and tournament organizers are simply responsible for holding them accountable. While players who are considered for suspension may point to a specific judge, tournament official, or another player as the cause, they themselves chose to take the actions that lead to suspension. Suspended players will naturally deny allegations of infractions that lead to suspension. Consider the source. There is no incentive whatsoever for tournament organizers to unreasonably suspend players. It is often easier to allow disruptive and unscrupulous players to simply continue along as usual. Enforcing necessary penalties for misbehavior is not easy, it's not fun, and it's certainly not whimsical. It is, however, necessary for the sustenance of the community at large.

As previously indicated, I drafted these guidelines based on existing DCI guidelines and with feedback from fellow tournament organizers and judges.

Methods for reporting disqualifications are laid out very clearly in the Tournament Organizer Handbook. In such rare occasions as this would be necessary in our admittedly small portion of the Magic playing community, statements would be admitted from the disqualified player, opponents, judges, and observers at the event in question. Further details about how disqualification and suspension are processed are available in that same document.

Those looking for a specific methodology behind how investigations are conducted and how suspension periods are reached should review the DCI guidelines for this process. There is no need to create a separate set of standards, when one already exists, one that players are already familiar with. All these guidelines do is extend the application of those standards to unsanctioned events. Consider that there are those who disagree with the methods of the DCI or any similar universal organization, particularly those who are negatively impacted by being caught cheating and summarily suspended. They would prefer that not all tournament organizers uphold the suspended players list because it provides less of a penalty for them. If you can cheat, be caught, and suffer little or no penalty, there is very little incentive to reform your behavior. It is the responsibility of all tournament organizers to uphold these principles, just as it is within DCI sanctioned events.
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« Reply #75 on: January 22, 2008, 01:26:22 pm »

Under the DCI, Andy Heckt makes the final decisions regarding investigations and suspensions/banning.  Who handles that for UTOG?  Who (all) makes the "how long" decision?
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« Reply #76 on: January 22, 2008, 04:33:14 pm »

While Andy takes all the feedback from judges, players, and tournament organizers for suspensions and finalizes the decision, he does not make the decisions entirely on his own. The same holds true for UTOG, as analogous to the DCI. All the feedback from tournament officials and players from any event(s) in question is important. The tournament officials upholding the UTOG will be the ones finalizing those decisions, just as the many tournament officials of the DCI collaborate to make those decisions. Suspension period can be determined by following the existing guidelines from the suspended players list, to which the UTOG list is simply an addendum.
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« Reply #77 on: January 22, 2008, 06:39:06 pm »

I've skimmed over the Nate thread and there are good parts and bad parts, although that is to be expected on any public thread debating the banning/supsension of a player.  That aside, I think the issue here is that there isn't a final authority who can say "This is the decision; there are no further appeals or discussions."

I'm also not contesting the ability of TO's to run their tournaments how they want; I know they work hard to make sure we can have events and have prizes.  I'm just concerned with the possibility of people jumping on the bandwagon before all the important details are hammered out.  My gut instinct says that if this is not done right the first time then it will likely not be possible again for a long time because people will point to it and go "look what happened last time we tried to set up our own rules outside the DCI" (even if those rules resemble the DCI).  I want to get this right the first time if it's going to be done.
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« Reply #78 on: January 22, 2008, 06:54:28 pm »

My gut instinct says that if this is not done right the first time then it will likely not be possible again for a long time because people will point to it and go "look what happened last time we tried to set up our own rules outside the DCI" (even if those rules resemble the DCI).  I want to get this right the first time if it's going to be done.

I agree that this should be done properly which is why I've spent so much time in discussion with fellow TOs, judges, and players about what guidelines should look like. Based on that consideration, I've determined that the best way is to use the DCI guidelines as much as possible and fill in what small gaps are left by the peculiarities of unsanctioned events. And that is what the UTOG are designed to do, supplement the DCI tournament rules and guidelines and adjust for those instances that are unique to unsanctioned events. So I continue to welcome suggestions for improvement. So far we've heard lots of questions and I've done my best to answer them. Those folks who do not think the guidelines are sufficient as written should submit options rather than discount the effort entirely.
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« Reply #79 on: January 22, 2008, 07:53:10 pm »

I've been closely following this discussion, and I have to say I still don't understand how the suspending of players will work. Are you going to add people to this list from other countries? When ELD went to Spain and that guy cheated him twice... is that reviewable under UTOG? If you gave an example of someone outside of the scope of your area, I think I would better understand. Can you please explain how a Nate Pease type player in CA or Spain would be handled? What if the TO is not running under UTOG, does this have any impact on a potential suspension? What if it's an 8 person Vroman's apt event and someone cheats? What if it's me and 3 friends playing for $80 cash and someone cheats? What if I challenge someone to a match of Vintage and I cheat? Where is the line drawn and who makes the decisions? I don't really understand how the system will work fairly.

edit: I've never ran an event with a judge in roughly 12 events. Does the lack of a judge affect the potential suspension of a player?
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« Reply #80 on: January 22, 2008, 09:11:04 pm »

While Andy takes all the feedback from judges, players, and tournament organizers for suspensions and finalizes the decision, he does not make the decisions entirely on his own. The same holds true for UTOG, as analogous to the DCI. All the feedback from tournament officials and players from any event(s) in question is important. The tournament officials upholding the UTOG will be the ones finalizing those decisions, just as the many tournament officials of the DCI collaborate to make those decisions. Suspension period can be determined by following the existing guidelines from the suspended players list, to which the UTOG list is simply an addendum.
There's no need to be this vague.  We have one suspension under the UTOG, Nate Pease.  Walk us through it.  We obviously have seen the Nate Pease thread; was there any other gathering of data?  Who all discussed that decision?  How did you determine the 2 years?  You say, Determing the timeline of suspension based on Suspended Players list guidelines, but there aren't any.  It's based on offense, but also number and nature of previous offenses.  There's no formula.

By the way, I'm not 100% confident in your interpretation of the DCI rules.
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This is not a "unique modification" and the Magic Floor Rules allows it.

You keep talking about how the "Tournament Organizer's Handbook" explains the rules for Disqualification.  And that's true, in the strictest sense.  I've now read it for the second time this week, and you'll please note that it talks about gathering statements and ships them to the DCI.  What I'm more concerned about is after I take all the statements and ship them to the UTOG Governing Body, whoever that is.  As players, we're more interested in what you do with them afterwards.


Personally, I'm becoming increasingly convinced that there's no process.  You decided you wanted Nate Pease banned and banned him.  The inability to say, "No, we came together as a group and voted by simple majority, and then voted again for the suspension time" or whatever happened makes it look like a vendetta which casts a negative cloud over something noble.  This sort of endeavor would be much more awesome if it did not include a Suspended Players list.
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« Reply #81 on: January 23, 2008, 01:13:49 am »

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When ELD went to Spain and that guy cheated him twice... is that reviewable under UTOG?

UTOG is simply TO's standing together to overcome the shortcomings of unsanctioned play.  If a TO wants to be part of UTOG, all they need to do is subscribe to the policies outlined.  UTOG is not some monolithic governing body, and it can't make anyone do anything.  It's members are simply saying they are going to run their events by the standards that are outlined.  Only UTOG and sanctioned events would have any bearing in regards to a player suspension.  If there was an outrageous act at a SCG event, that would be looked at too.  Something that people need to understand, is the need to actually suspend someone is only under extreme circumstances.  If someone assaults a judge at another tournament, I'm not going to allow them at my events.  As I have said in this thread already, there are like 100 people suspended by the DCI right now in the entire world.  Most of the players had to do with fraud, which doesn't even apply to non-sanctioned Vintage.  With the community that we have, it is likely we will not even see another person get suspended. 

I am at a loss for why anyone outside New England would have an issue with the current suspended list.  It's not even going to impact their events.  Anyone who organizes tournaments in New England is aware of the problem we faced.  We have handled it professionally and in a way that will deter the possibility of it happening again.  With these new policies in place, players can now expect to be suspended if they would receive a suspension from the DCI for their actions.  This means assault, cheating and other extreme behavior will now result in the same repercussions as in sanctioned play.  If UTOG was in place previously, we would have been able to avoid much of the difficulty in regards to how to handle someone who is cheating.  This essentially removes the possibility of unscrupulous people taking advantage of the differences between sanctioned and unsanctioned events, and makes a uniform tournament experience for everyone involved. 

From what I have seen on this thread, everyone is in agreement with the following:

Proxies
Prizes
Reports and Ratings

That only leaves the Suspended list as being discussed.  I think everything about the Suspended list has been covered, and it not even likely that it will ever matter.  The TO's who are part of UTOG will handle the unlikely situation of ever suspending another player.  UTOG is officially in place, and it is optional for any TO who wants to run their events up to quality of the outlined standards.  It will definitely increase the quality of the Vintage experience for players and TO's who choose to support it. 
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« Reply #82 on: January 23, 2008, 09:25:22 am »

Under the current guidlines, there are too many unessisary restrictions.  Also, what are the penalties for using substandard proxies according to UTOG?  Can I Proxy-lawer my opponent?  and to what end? 

I think there should be a bit more breathing room - something like:

All proxies must have the following text neatly printed, using a extra fine point Sharpie. Ball point pens may not be used:
1) The full name of the card (no abbreviations or nicknames)
2) Correct casting cost of the card including all colored mana symbols
3) Card Type and Subtype (where applicable)

NOTE: All misleading or incorrect card printed text must be erased or redacted.  This includes the art frame on the card.  The artframe be erased, redacted, or heavily modified.  Writing the name of the card in large block letters over the art frame is a good way to do this - so long as the card's art frame is not too dark.

> The full name of the card must be Large, clear, legible, and in a contrasting color from it's background.  The proxied card should be easily and quickly identifiable from across the table by your opponent.
> Game effecting text is highly encouraged but not required.  If you choose to include game text, be sure that it is accurate according to the current oraclated text.  Note that in terms of game text, there is a big difference in small words, for example "When ~ comes into play" and "As ~ comes into play."  So if you have game text on the card be sure it accurate.  Makeing a seemingly small mistake such as this can e considered misleading.  Also, do no use shortcuts  as this text may be misleading in how the card actually functions.   So for example, writing "Sac: 3 mana" is insufficient for Black Lotus.  Abbreviations are also not encouraged. 
> When complete, the proxy should be indistinguishable in weight, contour, and flexibility from the rest of the cards in your deck.
> It is encouraged to use either basic lands, or cards that share as many characteristics as possible with the proxy card.  Card characteristics that are printed the same as the proxied cards may be left intact.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2008, 09:33:42 am by Harlequin » Logged

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« Reply #83 on: January 23, 2008, 09:36:33 am »


I am at a loss for why anyone outside New England would have an issue with the current suspended list.  It's not even going to impact their events.  

I've noticed that you and Myriad have been at a loss... of words... which is why it is so confusing. You haven't explained anything clearly enough and instead of explaining the system, giving detailed examples or admitting it needs to be worked on, you guys either get offended or refer to the DCI system, which clearly it can not work in the same way as the DCI.

The reason I have an issue with the current suspended list is simple. If you expect TOs to subscribe to the UTOG, then they should completely understand the UTOG. I don't understand how the suspended list will work. How do you know it's not going to impact my events? What is there is a serious cheating/fraud/assault incident in the future in NC? What if Nate is visiting a friend in NC and wants to play a tourney?

To all TOs... I recommend you don't take their word on it and just hope the system works. I have no plans to use UTOG until you guys can actually explain to me how suspensions in other states or countries would work with detailed examples. I still have a bunch of questions you haven't answered in my previous posts.
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« Reply #84 on: January 23, 2008, 12:19:10 pm »

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Under the current guidlines, there are too many unessisary restrictions.  Also, what are the penalties for using substandard proxies according to UTOG?  Can I Proxy-lawer my opponent?  and to what end?

The guidelines ensure clear a gamestate, and we will be working with the players to make sure their proxies are sufficient.  Before all my events, everyone is encouraged to present their proxies, where they will be approved by someone who is not playing in the event.  If someone declines to have their proxies checked, and their proxies do not meet the standard, then it is handled the same way as misrepresentation of the gamestate. 

Quote
The reason I have an issue with the current suspended list is simple. If you expect TOs to subscribe to the UTOG, then they should completely understand the UTOG. I don't understand how the suspended list will work. How do you know it's not going to impact my events? What is there is a serious cheating/fraud/assault incident in the future in NC? What if Nate is visiting a friend in NC and wants to play a tourney?

I'll start by asking if you've ever had an offense serious enough to warrant a suspension in your store.  More people are fatally struck by lightning each year in the US than there are Magic players suspended each year in the entire world.  It really is absurdly rare.  You got me on the fact that a suspended player might show up at your shop.  This goes for the DCI's list too.  If you are part of UTOG, then the player would know not to show up.  If you want a suspended player to play in your shop, that is your call.  Just be aware that there are many players who do not want to spend their money to play in an event where there is a known suspended player, myself included. 

Certainly, if you are part of UTOG, and a player acts in a way that would warrant suspension, then you would review the DCI's literature, discuss it with other UTOG TO's and come to the fairest conclusion possible.  I would not want a cheater or someone who assaulted someone during a tournament to attend my events, and any other professional TO would certainly feel the same.  The loss of one entry fee is nothing compared to the potential damage such an individual could cause to the reputation of a store/TO, especially if there was a previous incident.   

To come to our conclusion, we TO's spoke with each other, looked over the framework set up by the DCI, and came up with the judgment we felt best matched their criteria.  We discussed a wide range of options, but in the end, we decided that sticking to a policy that reflected the DCI's was the most consistent and fair way to go.  Now with the UTOG policies in place, we will simply deal with things in a fashion that best reflects what the DCI does.  I hope this is clear enough for everyone.  I honestly can't see where there is any confusion on this issue, so further talk about it might be best handled by contacting Dan directly.  This is simply taking the DCI's policies and applying them to our non-sanctioned vintage events. 
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« Reply #85 on: January 23, 2008, 12:41:44 pm »

If someone declines to have their proxies checked, and their proxies do not meet the standard, then it is handled the same way as misrepresentation of the gamestate.

Quote
Due to a minor clerical error, the game is somehow inaccurately represented, but the game state is clear to both players and the action ultimately legal. If the error has affected game play or been allowed to continue to the point where ambiguity exists, it should be treated as a Game Play Error — Game Rule Violation instead.
Examples
A.   A player in a Magic tournament forgets to untap his land before moving to his upkeep.
B.   A player in a Magic tournament places a spell into the graveyard before it has finished resolving.
C.   A player in a Magic tournament forgets to put counters onto a creature that comes into play with counters on it.
Philosophy
These errors do not have a significant impact on the game, but could cause confusion at a later point if not remedied.
This is a Caution at all levels.  Don't you mean Deck Error - Illegal Deck (Legal Decklist)?
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« Reply #86 on: January 23, 2008, 01:09:26 pm »

No, it is Incorrect Representation, and it must be resolved, and a caution issued.  The main issue of Incorrect Representation is the confusion it causes, which is exactly what bad proxies create.  This means the proxy must be fixed.  The goal of UTOG's proxy policy is not to punish, but to make sure that all the proxies being used are clear.  Enforcing these standards will do just that.  Now that the major TO's in New England are on the same page, players will know what is expected of their proxies when they attend an event. 
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« Reply #87 on: January 23, 2008, 01:17:51 pm »

This is somewhat contradictory with other rules.  Not only does what you're talking about not fit, but there are similar cases with artistic modification where you're ruling incorrectly.  I'm curious who decided this is Incorrect Representation.
Quote
[13:14] <Anusien> If a player modifies the card past the point of recognizability, is it Illegal Deck?
[13:15] <EliShffrn> It's not a legal card, so it's an illegal deck.
[13:15] <lpowell> Well, the card is not allowed in the tournament by the floor rules, and then yes, defacto illegal deck I would say.
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« Reply #88 on: January 23, 2008, 01:38:22 pm »

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<Anusien> If a player modifies the card past the point of recognizability, is it Illegal Deck?

A proxy is going to be recognizable.  If someone made a proxy for a card, it is possible to figure out what card it's supposed to be.  Your quote is correct, but totally irrelevant. 

Quote
I'm curious who decided this is Incorrect Representation.
TO's in UTOG use the DCI's policies to make our decisions.  Just to be clear, the UTOG TO's decide.  Note that is very similar as if there was no UTOG.  Without UTOG, as a TO, I would decide.  Now, as a UTOG TO, I discuss the issues with other TO's to attempt to have uniform enforcement similar to what players experience at a DCI event.  UTOG is simply TO's working together to have uniform standards for any issue unique to our format not specifically handled by the DCI (such as proxies)

I am a little confused Anusien, do you organize tournaments?  If not, I'm not sure what your concern is.  TO's have the ability to do everything in UTOG even without participating in it.  The implementation of UTOG does not change anything for anyone.  The only thing that changes anything is when a TO subscribes to the policies.  If you have an issue with a TO in your area using these policies, it would be best to take it up with that TO. 
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« Reply #89 on: January 23, 2008, 02:01:35 pm »

From what I have seen on this thread, everyone is in agreement with the following:

Proxies
Prizes
Reports and Ratings


I agree with the basic Pro Points style rating system hammered out by MyriadGames and others, but I'm not clear on why are we keeping track of these ratings in the first place.

What purpose will ratings serve?

Will they reset at the end of the quarter/year/season?

Are we going to set up some sort of Vintage Players Club modeled after the Pro Players Club awarding byes and/or free entry into events for high level players at events that subscribe to the UTOG?

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