Control Slaver

[LSD/Cruise]

Blood Moon is an insanely strong card right now in the current metagame. May said that Slaver is dead. I can only think of the Leylines in the Sideboard, but the deck is still very strong on it's own. It doesnt always need Welder to win, and bouncing the Leyline can easily be done. If not against decks with Leyline, it is still very strong against GAT.

With all the Staxless Stax and GAT running around, I see the rise of Slaver again. I may be wrong, so give me reasons to see why it may be dead now.


// Lands 25
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Tolarian Academy
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Island


// Creatures 6
3 Goblin Welder
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Duplicant
1 Sundering Titan


// Spells 30
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Echoing Truth
1 Mindslaver
2 Merchant Scroll
4 Brainstorm
4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection


// Sideboard 15
1 Pyrite Spellbomb
2 Fire // Ice
3 Magus of the Moon/Blood Moon
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Leyline of Singularity
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast


I know Demars made a top finish with Slaver, so tell me what you guys think.

[Vegeta2711]

Well GAT and Flash both beat Slaver, so I'd be interested in why you think it's a good choice when nearly every proponent of the deck has given it up.

[Bubbydan]

Well GAT and Flash both beat Slaver, so I'd be interested in why you think it's a good choice when nearly every proponent of the deck has given it up.

  First off Slaver can be metagamed to give any deck a battle.Since the first day of the last waterbury I haven't lost a match to flash....GAT on the other hand has been my Achilles heal.
 
  My suggestions are..

 Drop Gifts and FoF. They are great bombs...but they cost too much. Replace them with duresses. They work at taking flashes from the flash player.
  I would also take out the Gorilla Shaman and Misdirections for Magus of the Moon. This has been what I have been recently testing against GAT and it seems to give you at least a fighting chance. A first or second turn Moon isn't too shabby against STAX either.

 Of course I should point out that my Metagame is GAT heavy which is why I suggest the Moos maindeck. If it is more stax than I would keep at least on Gorrilla Shaman Main.

 I might also change Titan for Triskelion/Triskelivus just for the fact it can plug off Slivers. Titan does nothing to slow down any of these decks. By the time it comes in Flash will have already won, or have the two man it needs, Gat will just Gush it back into their hands, and Stax doesn't play enough basics land types.Maybe mountains.

 Dan

[LSD/Cruise]

Well... I actually think this deck can have a great Flash and GAT match-up. Some tweaks have to be made, and it'll be all good. Demars always played Slaver, and he knows that it is a true metagame deck. He always adapts it.

Anyways, as for some changes to be made.

-1 Gorilla Shaman
-1 Gifts Ungiven
-1 Fact or Fiction
-1 Duplicant
-1 Sundering Titan


+1 Triskelion
+1 Platinum Angel
+3 Magus of the Moon


I left Misdirections in because I think it's crucial that Magus of the Moon and friends resolve. I think Platinum Angel is awesome personally. It breaks stalemates and just flies and wins. Versus Flash, it's promising. It may be a concern against GAT though, so I may leave Duplicant in.

[Vegeta2711]

It isn't so much if you can put enough hate cards in against GAT or Flash to make it an even to slightly favorable match (though I doubt GAT gets better than 40/60 favoring GAT)... any deck can do that. My basic point is you have no strategic advantage in the Slaver - GAT match, there's no real point in playing it.

GAT has the same disruption (plus duress), except more of it.
It's draw costs 0-1 mana, yours costs 1 and then 3.
It can combo out at a consistently quicker pace than Slaver
It runs fewer dead cards than stuff like Welder, Duplicant, etc.

The only thing you really gain is a more stable mana base, but then again everything in GAT is cheaper anyway, so it doesn't matter quite as much.

Well... I actually think this deck can have a great Flash and GAT match-up.

That's great that you think it can, but I'd like to hear some reasoning why. Hopefully a better answer than try to resolve 3cc spell during your main phase.

[Bubbydan]

  I don't know why I choose to play Slaver over GAT, other than the fact that I have been playing it for a while and feel comfortable playing it. Furthermore the hate that people used to throw in against slaver are being played less and less. There are fewer Null Rods and most people don't bring in Leyline against Slaver. Something about it not being great enough just to beat Slaver the way it does Flash and Ichiroid.

  What Slaver has that neither do is the ability to run REB. Not quite as good as Duress, but I think its slightly better than misdirection.

 
  Platinum Angel has been so-so for me. Sometimes it flies in for the win, other times it gets bounced right after they hit me with a leathal something. Duplicant can take away some their win conditions, and it costs just as much as Plat if it needs to be hard cast. I have been toying around with playing with dupe and plat as my two robots. I really don't like more than that because they tend to sit dead in your hand , which is something you dont want in either match up.

  Duress can be played in Slaver too, but with Magus of the Moon I wouldn't play more than one or two. You are already limited by your low amount of Black mana. Maybe some combo of Duress and REB would be ideal.

  I was also thinking about Bloodfire Dwarf in the sideboard instead of pyroclasm. It does one less damage, but it cost one red to cast, one red to sacrafice, and it happens at instant speed. It would be great at stopping those darn slivers.

Dan

[Implacable]

What Slaver has that neither do is the ability to run REB. Not quite as good as Duress, but I think its slightly better than misdirection.

To address this: Menendian just won the championships with a maindeck R.E.B.

To address the main point of the thread: The problem with Slaver right now is that its principle, core strategy (control the early game with counterspells/hate, then have inevitability take the match through a variety of means) is too slow for the format.  Slaver cannot beat a good G.A.T. deck, so running it is like playing a Mirrodin Block deck that can't beat Affinity.  You are also consistently overpowered and lucksacked out of the game by all combo decks, from Sliver Flash to Rector Flash to Contractor to Long.  The only decks that you can consistently pull away from are themselves throwbacks to an era we have, for the moment, left in the dirt.

[limitedwhole]

Take out all the combo jank and put in cheap answers i.e. cheap counterspells.  That is the combo stuff always wasn't any good.  Welder in control is just fireworks.

[Bubbydan]

Take out all the combo jank and put in cheap answers i.e. cheap counterspells.  That is the combo stuff always wasn't any good.  Welder in control is just fireworks.

  My question is have you actually played slaver? You use welders to bring in your big artifacts that have been discarded to thirst.


  I am as of this moment trying to figure out if I should run duresses main or to go with REBs. With magus's it would seem more proficient with REBs, but duresses are more of a proactive solution to some of the things being played out there. It lets me see their hand and get the card I want, where as REB lets me hit a blue spell.

[limitedwhole]

Take out all the combo jank and put in cheap answers i.e. cheap counterspells.  That is the combo stuff always wasn't any good.  Welder in control is just fireworks.

  My question is have you actually played slaver? You use welders to bring in your big artifacts that have been discarded to thirst.


  I am as of this moment trying to figure out if I should run duresses main or to go with REBs. With magus's it would seem more proficient with REBs, but duresses are more of a proactive solution to some of the things being played out there. It lets me see their hand and get the card I want, where as REB lets me hit a blue spell.

My point is big fat artifacts are dead in your hand and thirst for knowledge will never resolve.  Go with REB or Nix or some combination of the two.  All the spells you want to hit are blue or cost no mana to cast.  When you cast duress, your opponent does not have to pay the cost of the spell you take, that is it generates no tempo gain.  When you cast counter it does.  DURESS DOESN"T GENERATE TEMPO UNLESS YOU TAKE A MOX OR LOTUS.  I wouldn't try to hose GAT.  GAT wounds itself severely to play the game it does.  It bounces islands back to its hand which is pretty severe.  Sure their spells are cheap but if you counterspell their moxen they get really slow.  It throws cards away with a glut of pitch magic.  Gush, Force, Misdirection all have casting cost five meaning if you set up a drain you can fuel a fat spell.  REB allows you to do this but duress doesn't.  Try to make a control deck that plays a low tempo game, but has a few high cost spells.  If you want a bullet tutor for mystic remora.  I had previously thought Pithing needle would do but mystic remora is a better bullet if you can find room.  In order to remove it they have to initiate a counterwar with a REB.  Counter.  When they play pick magic, LET IT RESOLVE.  You will draw a card.  Then recounter the REB.  They will have to pitch again.  LET IT RESOLVE.  This creates a 3 card differential even if you let them win.  If they don't attack the remora, they have to let you draw a card everytime they resolve a spell.  If they decide not to resolve a spell, you can get a huge mana lead and just outcounter them and dominate with mana superiority.  If they just decide to wait out the remora punish them by aggresively playing powerful sorceries under the remora.  They can only counter with pitch magic and every time they do you effectively get an ancestral recall.

It's also worth noting that in order to find the red blast game one they will need to cast a card disadvantage tutor so the differential is more like 5 cards.  Remora is a house against gat.  Their threat potency (i.e. ratio of spells to mana because a liability under the remora).

[KiernanM]

Hi, I'm a new poster. 

The problem I see w/ Cslaver atm is, it's vulnerable to every kind of hate that people use.  Removal targeting Welders, Leylines, Null Rod, Red Blasts, Pithing Needles, etc.  What sideboard cards don't work against this deck, anyway?  I guess it can use more Islands, or something? 

[Bubbydan]

Hi, I'm a new poster. 

The problem I see w/ Cslaver atm is, it's vulnerable to every kind of hate that people use.  Removal targeting Welders, Leylines, Null Rod, Red Blasts, Pithing Needles, etc.  What sideboard cards don't work against this deck, anyway?  I guess it can use more Islands, or something? 

  Since I have started playing slaver people have been either maindecking this hate or bringing it in. It is how you play around it.  The thing I have noticed is that Null Rods are being played less and less as they don't do much against GAT, Flash, or Stax which are their three biggest concerns right now.
  Leylines on the other hand are an iffy thing to bring in against slaver. It works out great if it is in your opening hand, but how much are you going to mulligan to get it. Most likely if you draw it with your first, second or third draw your most likely not going to play it, wanting to play other things in your hand.
  People must also try and figure out how much they want to bring in just to stop you...how much of their deck they want to take out. I have played against people who have brought in their whole sideboard, thus killing their decks and actually giving me an easier time beating them.
  Slavers problem is not the hate against it, but the speed of the decks against it. The thing I have always felt with Slaver though is its ability to find a weakness in these decks and exploit it. GAT's would be its reliance on Non-basic lands. Look at Menendian list. He splashed Red and played maindeck REB, but he only had one basic Island. Drop down a blood moon earliy enough and that deck is stuck. NO gush, dryads or psychatogs...well he will still be able to play that REB though.

My point is big fat artifacts are dead in your hand and thirst for knowledge will never resolve.

  I wouldn't say thirst will never resolve. It does ocasionlly, as does Tinker. The thing is knowing when to play it, and how important it is at the time. A lot of times you can use it as counter bait.

 

[forests failed you]

This is a Revised list for what I played at GenCon, in case anybody was interested.

2 Goblin Welder
1 Triskellavus

4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
2 Red Elemental Blast

2 Duress
1 Demonic tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will

1 Mindslaver
1 Tormod's Crypt

4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Brainstorm
2 Merchant Scroll
1 Mysical Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Echoing Truth

3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Snow Covered Island
1 Library of ALexandria

1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 SOl Ring

SB

3 Xilid Jailer
1 Platnium Angel
1 Rack and Ruin
1 Shattering Spree
1 Fire Ice
1 Pyrite Spellbomb
2 Stifle
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Hurkyls Recall
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Trinket Mage

I noticed that people had made reference to it, and I wanted to make sure that everyone was on the same page.  Red Elemental Blast is awesome in the maindeck.  In fact, I actually Red Elemental Blasted a Stax players turn two Tinker at Worlds off a Mox Ruby.  Yes I know that is pretty lucky, but why not? 

Slaver is an okay deck.  I wouldn't say that it is one of the top decks in Vintage at the moment.  Decks like Flash and GAT are really, really fast and have much more power.  However, to compensate for this I played hosey cards like Red Elemental Blast and Duress in the maindeck.  Its kind of a beating on the mana, and takes up slots that used to be devoted toward having maindeck utility...  Like Gorilla Shaman and Sundering Titan.  The problem is that if one is playing at a high level against the top decks (make no mistake about it GAT and Flash are both stupidly heads and tails more powerful than anything else in the format), the games didn't tend to go long enough to make use of the utility because I was getting combo'd out on the second or third turn backed up. 

The thing that is good about my list, is that it is fast enough to put up an effective counterwall very quickly, and that the mana curve is very low.  This makes you much stronger against GAT and Flash than a more traditional CS list.  The problem is that the offensive power of this deck is very weak, and it has very few ways to win... all of which need to be set up and carefully protected.  For instance, if you get your Triskellavus Extirpated... Well, good luck with those Welder beats.

Also, unlike other Slaver builds that I have played in the past this deck's Tinker is much weaker.  Tinker for Triskellavus doesn't have the same punch as Sundering Titan in a psuedo control mirror.  However, Triskellabus is an absolute beating against all of the creature decks.  If you ever untap with that guy in play it becomes almost impossible for them to beat you.  I pretty much just set up a game ending Mindslaver against every other deck in the format. 

This deck is pretty much a complete control deck.  It was not my intention to build a control deck, as most of my slaver decks tend to be fairly agressive.  However, Slaver's offense are simply no match for GAT or Flash's, so a slaving mage must take advantage of what is uniquely CS's to offer... and that is its defense and control package.  Basically, either you play GAT or Flash, because they are much more powerful than any other stratagy... Or, you play a hosey hate deck that has a decent match up against both because it plays with 'sideboard' cards in the maindeck. 

Blood Moon is also a fairly good option:

Mark Biller played a variant of my deck and finished in the top 16 at worlds this year.  I know that he was playing with Blood Moon in his sideboard as well.  If you are interested in this stratagy you may wish to consult with him, or check out his decklist.

Cheers,

[Harlequin]

The problem I see w/ Cslaver atm is, it's vulnerable to every kind of hate that people use.  Removal targeting Welders, Leylines, Null Rod, Red Blasts, Pithing Needles, etc.  What sideboard cards don't work against this deck, anyway?  I guess it can use more Islands, or something? 

Not to gang up on the new poster (and btw welcome to TMD), but I think that this just proves why slaver is actually difficult to board against.  You need to attack it on multiple fronts.  Attacking the welders does nothing to stop Tinker or Yawg; Leyline again doesn't stop tinker or big drain into creature; Red Blasts don't stop welder dirrectly - but they can stop thirst, also does not stop yawg, and Needle - if you don't name welder will get welded out, and if you do then it doesn't really stop any of the other bombs.  So you have to have an array of options in a balanced deck, and a bit of good fortune on your side to really shut them out.

The real question to be asked is - why slaver over GAT?  If the answer is: because I like slaver.  Then more power to ya.  But when it comes down to brass-tacks Slaver was always about winning small enough to edge out a timely Yawg or Tinker.  The deck forces your opponent into counterwars over things like welder and thrist then when they're resources are down you hit it big with tinker or yawg.  Gat has a similar stratigy... just copy and paste the above to read: GAT was always about winning small enough to edge out a timely Yawg or Fastbond.  The deck forces your opponent into counterwars over things like Dryad and Togg, then when they're resources are down you hit it big with fastbond or yawg.  Now in comparing other cards, gat trades the robots in for disruption, and bosts a bigger draw package while remaining lighter on mana.

However - All that asside - Jer and I have been testing slaver durring our unshedualed and unfortunate tournement break.  Having tested the Red-man-moon slaver, it has some strong points.  It just doesn't have the consistancy we would have liked.  When going red, you really have to commit.  3 Manmoons, 2ish maindeck REBs, and only 2 black cards main (yawg, DT), then just load up on huge guys.  At the hight of that decks refinement it had: Triskellion, Sundering Titan, Memory Jar, Duplicant, AND Memnark (which is suprizing insane).   Most of the time the plan was drain big and hardcast.  As I said before, consistancy was lacking... but it did have it's blowout games.

Testing has been more favorable for a darker slaver.   Packing maindeck Duresses, Extirpates, and Shadow of Doubt... All great meta cards.  This has been shelved for the time being, but it is showing some promise.

[KiernanM]

The problem I see w/ Cslaver atm is, it's vulnerable to every kind of hate that people use.  Removal targeting Welders, Leylines, Null Rod, Red Blasts, Pithing Needles, etc.  What sideboard cards don't work against this deck, anyway?  I guess it can use more Islands, or something? 

Not to gang up on the new poster (and btw welcome to TMD), but I think that this just proves why slaver is actually difficult to board against.  You need to attack it on multiple fronts.  Attacking the welders does nothing to stop Tinker or Yawg; Leyline again doesn't stop tinker or big drain into creature; Red Blasts don't stop welder dirrectly - but they can stop thirst, also does not stop yawg, and Needle - if you don't name welder will get welded out, and if you do then it doesn't really stop any of the other bombs.  So you have to have an array of options in a balanced deck, and a bit of good fortune on your side to really shut them out.

I see your point (correct me if I'm wrong): I'm thinking that infinite sideboard cards "apply" to Slaver and "disrupt" Slaver, but you're saying that none of these cards really "answer" Slaver or "hose" Slaver.  There's lots of random hate but no absolute bomb hate, or something. 

But I'm fairly confident that I'm just talking my way around what you've been seeing in tests - there's no strategic advantage over GAT.  Hence my post - I thought I'd toss out another reason that might be the case.  It's not just GAT's edge in power.  For example, GAT can (almost) totally ignore Null Rod, Needle for Psychatog is uh, underwhelming ... nothing really, seriously bombs it out hate-wise.   Blood Moon dudes are the only thing I can think of that hurt GAT > Slaver...  See what I'm aiming at with this?  I'm probably missing something, regardless

[forests failed you]

To be honest there is one card that does 'hose' control slaver:  That card is Dark Ritual.

[zeus-online]

Hate cards are not really worth it against slaver imo...you just want to stop the slaver players draw and end the game before they recover...If you somehow can't win the game before they recover you absolutely need to deal with the welders or the slaver player will do something stupid like hardcast a mindslaver and if countered weld it right in again.

The only effective hate-cards for slaver has pretty much been general utility like gorilla shaman imho.

As said by the others, what beats slaver is fast decks which beat slaver before they're ready to fight back.

@FFY:
How did that seeminly random disruption package work? (2 duress, 2 rebs, 1 misD)
..And how did merchant scroll work? Would it be better to load up on FoF/Gifts or are they simply to slow atm?

/Zeus

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

slaver was always one of my more liked match ups (not necessarily more successfull)
these are things that came in handy:
mox monkey
null rod
dark blast
chalice @ 1     <----this one was one of my favorites.
early chalice @0

[forests failed you]

Hate cards are not really worth it against slaver imo...you just want to stop the slaver players draw and end the game before they recover...If you somehow can't win the game before they recover you absolutely need to deal with the welders or the slaver player will do something stupid like hardcast a mindslaver and if countered weld it right in again.

The only effective hate-cards for slaver has pretty much been general utility like gorilla shaman imho.

As said by the others, what beats slaver is fast decks which beat slaver before they're ready to fight back.

@FFY:
How did that seeminly random disruption package work? (2 duress, 2 rebs, 1 misD)
..And how did merchant scroll work? Would it be better to load up on FoF/Gifts or are they simply to slow atm?

/Zeus

I don't understand what is 'seemingly random' about two duress, two red elemental blast, and one misdirection.  Actually, it wasn't random at all:  I simply played the Slaver deck that I had been playing over the summer pre-sideboarded game one for combo and combo-control.  It worked out fairly well. 

I lost a close three game set to GAT where I had the win next turn (Yawgmoth's Will with Red Elemental Blast backup) and my opponent topdecked Yawgmoth's Will.  And the other match I lost was one of the most frusterating three game sets I've ever played to the Dark Ritual deck that made top eight;  who in two straight games played three bombs in the same turn which I countered and then tapped out for Wheel/Time Twister and hit six Mana and Desire.  He wasn't cheating or anything, it was just a very unlikely and awkward situation to find oneself in.

I feel like I could play Slaver in a Vintage event and be competitive, perhaps even top eight...  However I honestly feel like it would be easier to do well just playing a Gush based deck.  The Gush stratagy is just more intrinisically potent.  Slaver may one day be strong, but today is just not its day.