Will Ponder (from Lorwyn) find its way into Vintage?

[jj2423]

Will this new card from Lorwyn (source: mtgsalvation's spoiler) find its way into vintage decks? I think it has potential, but it is a sorcery. What are your opinions?

Ponder   
Sorcery 
Look at the top three cards of your library. You may put them back in any order or shuffle your library.
Draw a card.
"We see the same sky as you, but through a different lens."
Illus. Mark Tedin 

[cursedDice]

This card comes very close do digging four cards deep for one mana.  I have a feeling it will replace Opt in GAT builds that run it, although I may be mistaken, I don't play GAT.  Decks like Oath that run Impulse potentially would use this as well, possibly as a replacement to impulse (less vulnerable to Chalice on 2, which is the most frequent Chalice play against Oath).  Time will tell, but it also has potential to get into storm based combo decks as a 1 or 2 of, acting like Brainstorm 5-6...maybe.  I play fish and bomberman mostly, so this is a lot of third party musing.  Nice card, I like it.

[LordHomerCat]

As a sorcery, its not better than Opt in drain decks (like GAT).  Unless the effect turns out to be absurdly powerful, which it isnt, I probably won't play it over opt, just like how i would never play Sleight or Serum Visions or *shudder* portent.

[Vegeta2711]

As a sorcery, its not better than Opt in drain decks (like GAT)

Why would it be worse than Opt in GAT? Do you actually cast it at instant speed that often? Like otherwise looking at the top 3 and then drawing just seems better than scry 1, draw.

[zeus-online]

I've seen a card named "Think" spoiled as an instant with exactly the same effect..So i'd say that the instant version would deffinetly be better..Only time will tell if it's instant or sorcery i guess.

/Zeus

[rkmancer]

That card named "Think" has changed today and becomes exactly what this thread told us. .

Ponder
   u
Sorcery   Common
Look at the top three cards of your library. You may put them back in any order or shuffle your library.
Draw a card.
"We see the same sky as you, but through a different lens."
Illus. Mark Tedin      

[Sarah Angel]

I really don't see how Opt is better because of its instant speed.  Like Vegeta asks, how often do you opt at instant speed.  I suppose it's a nice luxury at the end of the opponents turn, but I really think a card that almost Scrys for 3 and then draws vs. Scry 1, draw is definitely better.  Obviously the "almost" part is a big factor, especially since we are talking about a Gush deck, but I don't think that, or the sorcery speed are enough to warrant Opt getting the green flag.  I guess we will see.

At least they have now made portent completely obsolete (as if it wasnt already...).

[meadbert]

Current GAT lists run 2 Drains so it is nice to keep Drain mana up so you can (play/bluff) Drain and then EOT you could Opt.
Also, instant speed allows you to hold back a decision.  If you Opt during you main phase and see MisD you might go for card #2.  If you waited and then Opt in response to an opponent's Ancestral then you know you want Misdirection.

[Jo84]

well, if the instant speed of opt isn´t that important, why do people play opt over sleight of hand?

I am not sure, if ponder is that good, as portent is nearly the same card. And as they are both (ponder/portent) sorcery speed the difference is really slight in my opinion.

Sure, it´s an option in GAT, but I don´t think it will fit in any other deck, as brainstorm and thirst are better choices. In addition it´s no scroll target.

[Grand Inquisitor]

Why would it be worse than Opt in GAT? Do you actually cast it at instant speed that often?

It's actually a big deal.  More common than the misdirection play, is when you play a fetchland game 1.  If you need to fetch main phase you may either not get the color you need (going for island) or fall prey to wasteland (going for dual).  The drain argument also comes up a lot.  Lastly, it's often useful to know both what your opponent is playing and what his first turn looks like before opting.

The fact that you can dig 4 deep with this is a strong argument compared with opt, but it being a sorcery shouldn't be shrugged off.

I don't see this having a large impact on vintage.

[cheddercaveman]

Opt is also amazing at instant speed because it can allow you to use one of your tutors like Mystical Tutor or Vampiric Tutor and then draw the card right away.  This doesnt happen all the time, but enough to make it better.  The only time people will play Ponder is in any place that Portent or Serum Visions is currently played because for all intents and purposes Ponder is strictly better than those 2 cards.  I would say it is also NOT a replacement for Impulse, Impulse is 4 deep at instant speed, and also clears cards out.  I play solidarity in legacy a lot so I know the advantage of following up a brainstorms that involved putting 2 lands you dont need back and then putting them on bottom and getting the card you want.

[Purple Hat]

Why would it be worse than Opt in GAT? Do you actually cast it at instant speed that often?

It's actually a big deal.  More common than the misdirection play, is when you play a fetchland game 1.  If you need to fetch main phase you may either not get the color you need (going for island) or fall prey to wasteland (going for dual).  The drain argument also comes up a lot.  Lastly, it's often useful to know both what your opponent is playing and what his first turn looks like before opting.

The fact that you can dig 4 deep with this is a strong argument compared with opt, but it being a sorcery shouldn't be shrugged off.

I don't see this having a large impact on vintage.

another example of where opt is good is when you're not planning to break your turn 1 fetch until the turn 2 main phase because you want to dig for mana, but you don't have force of will for your opponet's turn 1 play.  if your opponent does something really broken you can opt for force, but if he doesn't do something you care about you can get the extra draw with more mana in the deck.

[Vegeta2711]

Of course, you can actually have a decent shot at hitting mana off Ponder and not Time Stretching yourself vs. your opponent like Brainstorm if you don't hit it.

Like I can see where these other arguments are coming from, but the ability to keep 1 land hands because you can see four cards and even if you manage to not hit mana, still have the next draw phase to hit land seems huge. You really can't keep one land hands with GAT as it stands, simply because even with Brainstorm your oh so dead if you don't hit the second Island.

Opt is also amazing at instant speed because it can allow you to use one of your tutors like Mystical Tutor or Vampiric Tutor and then draw the card right away.

I don't think I've ever had anyone or anyone on Reflection ever have to cast Mystical / Vamp and then cast Opt on somebody elses turn. I mean I know it's POSSIBLE, but like it comes up so rarely I can't see how this is remotely a factor when debating the two.

[Scott_Limoges]

I play 0 mana drain and 4 sleight of hand. 

Now, I'll play 0 mana drain and 4 ponder.

I really hope the printing of Ponder does not foreshadow the restriction of brainstorm (that was the first thing that came to mind when I saw Ponder).

[SyntheticAngel]

I play 0 mana drain and 4 sleight of hand. 

Now, I'll play 0 mana drain and 4 ponder.

I really hope the printing of Ponder does not foreshadow the restriction of brainstorm (that was the first thing that came to mind when I saw Ponder).

Yeah Scott that will be damn awesome. I agree I really don't want to see brainstorm it will be a sad day.

[wraith985]

I mean, the card has been changed on the spoiler from Sorcery to Instant, apparently reflecting a foreign scan that they got ahold of, so the point is moot. As an instant, it's certainly better than Opt.

[Necrologia]

I mean, the card has been changed on the spoiler from Sorcery to Instant, apparently reflecting a foreign scan that they got ahold of, so the point is moot. As an instant, it's certainly better than Opt.

Your info is out of date wraith985.



Conjuro is Sorcery in Spanish. I still think it has potential in GAT, especially in builds that don't run drain.

[andrewpate]

I seriously doubt that Ponder means Brainstorm's days are numbered.  I really don't give R&D's attention to Vintage enough credit to think that they would see a problem with Brainstorm (quite a while ago, to get this card into Lorwyn in time) and then put off restricting it until they could rotate a suitable replacement into the mix.

More likely, I'd say that they saw the decent amount of play Telling Time and Sleight of Hand got last year and decided to see if they could push Standard and Extended cantrips a little further.  Another possibility is that they'd like to see some kind of Super Gro in Standard in order to fuel their attempted hype about Quirion Dryad in 10th Edition.

[desolutionist]

As a sorcery, its not better than Opt in drain decks (like GAT)

Why would it be worse than Opt in GAT? Do you actually cast it at instant speed that often? Like otherwise looking at the top 3 and then drawing just seems better than scry 1, draw.

That's why I played Sleight of Hands.  Drain doesn't even belong in the deck, so there is no reason to leave mana open for EOT nonsense.

[Outlaw]

As a sorcery, its not better than Opt in drain decks (like GAT)

Why would it be worse than Opt in GAT? Do you actually cast it at instant speed that often? Like otherwise looking at the top 3 and then drawing just seems better than scry 1, draw.

That's why I played Sleight of Hands.  Drain doesn't even belong in the deck, so there is no reason to leave mana open for EOT nonsense.

I agree with this statement, the last time I played gat in a tourney I decided to run Spell Snares and 2 drains, the drains hurt me all day long and should have been something else entirely.  I would definitely run 4 Ponders in GAT while swapping out the few drains that people still run.

[Solomox]

It seems the argument has shifted away from "Should we play ponder" to "Should we play Mana Drain".  It seems that if people play Drains, there will be no room for ponder, and if people play ponder in GAT, there is no room for drains.  Mana Drain vs. Ponder.  If the argument boils down to which would I rather run, I'm still a fan of Mana Drain.  I feel it does belong in the deck over ponder.  Mana Drain can burn you if you play it at the wrong time, but when it comes time to go off with Yawg Will, it can be very helpful.  Not to mention the drain mana can always be used to hard cast Gush.  It seems to me that if the game is in such a state where playing drain and not being able to use the mana is killing you, it's either over already or was a desparation maneuver.     

As far as Opt vs. Ponder, I'm still a fan of Opt.  This is largely due to the fact that I run Mana Drain, but then again it all goes back to the base argument of Ponder vs Mana Drain.  Instant vs. Sorcery.  I don't feel that at this time there is a clear cut answer.  It just comes down to personal preference and if you feel you can play around Mana Drain. 

GAT aside, what other decks will largely benefit from Ponder?  Flash may be able to use it to dig deeper to go off.  Oath could use it to keep your targets in your deck.  Tendrils doesn't need it.  Stax doesn't need it.  Ichorid doesn't need it.  What about Fish?  Could they use it in addition to Brainstorm, or is it not worth finding something to cut out to replace it?   

All in all, the only deck I can see that gets a viable boost will be Flash.  It's obviously inferior to Brainstorm, but I sure will pick up 4 Foils when the set comes out.  Some day it will find a home, especially if they ever decide to restrict Brainstorm.  I hope that never happens though.

[Implacable]

Well, most people seem to think that Flash and G.A.T./Gush Tendrils are the best two decks in the format.  And most people seem to think that Ponder will be played in multiples in both of those decks, so how is that a small-impact card?

[Solomox]

I'm sure it will have an impact, but time will tell.  I have no clear cut idea of how important it will be.  Basically this is just a better version of Portent, I believe it is a good card, I just don't see it as a format affecting card.  I play GAT right now, so I'll test it out and see how big of a difference it does make.  Opt may be cut for it, but only playtesting will determine.  I'm sure Flash will use it, but looking at the last Indy Top 8 as well as the Vintage Championships I think something new will have to come out to take out GAT.  Time to bring back SS?  Does Ponder have a home there?