Duress $t4cks

[LotusHead]

Believe it or not, this one of my first Open Forum topics.

I built my early career on Salvager builds, before Bomberman became Bomberman, but have fallen in love with Shop Decks, which to me are entirely "fair" and "fun".

I cut Chalice of the Void for 2 Duress and 2 Extripate and present the following:



// Lands
    3  Gemstone Mine
    4  Mishra's Workshop
    1  Strip Mine
    1  Tolarian Academy
    4  Wasteland
    1  Bazaar of Baghdad
    1  Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
    4  City of Brass

// Creatures
    3  Goblin Welder
    1  Karn, Silver Golem
    1  Sundering Titan
    1  Triskelion

// Spells
    1  Black Lotus
    3  Crucible of Worlds
    1  Demonic Tutor
    1  Mana Crypt
    1  Mana Vault
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Sol Ring
    1  Time Walk
    1  Tinker
    1  Trinisphere
    1  Ancestral Recall
    1  Vampiric Tutor
    1  Tormod's Crypt
    1  Balance
    3  Smokestack
    2  Duress
    4  Sphere of Resistance
    1  Crop Rotation
    2  Tangle Wire
    1  Memory Jar
    2  Extirpate

// Sideboard
SB: 2  Triskelion
SB: 3  Chalice of the Void
SB: 4  Leyline of the Void
SB: 3  Viashino Heretic
SB: 3  Red Elemental Blast


This deck is a Stax deck at heart, but clearly does not run Chalice of the Void maindeck. everyone knows how to play around Chalice nowadays. Oxidice, Anceint Grudge, Rack n Ruin, Hurkyl's Recall, Rebuild, etc.

Set for 0, they play Brainstorm into hate/answers.
Set to 1 they play Merchant Scroll into hate/answers.
Set to 2 they play Brainstorm/Moxen/tutors into answers/hate

and so forth.

I've dropped Chalice from the MD and put it SB  for the time being.

Duress: Proactive Hate vs the field. (except say, goblins or possibly Ichorid.)
Extripate: I own two, and pwning all their Forces, Brainstorms, Gushes, Dryads, etc seem good.

My main gripe against Chalice is that it often hurts me BAD. worse than say, Sphere of Resitance. 

My sideboard needs work, clearly, at it was cut and pasted from that last 3 shop decks I've piloted.

Chalice is currently SB because some matchups, say Flash and Storm.dec are actually hindered by Chalice for 0 or 1.

We need some Stax discussion, and this is the first time I've actually played a committed Stax deck, as opposed to Shop Aggro/MUD/Crushing CHamber.

Any and all thought/criticisims welcomed.

Further EDIT: I saw a "Duress Stax" list once a year or two ago, and that was inspiration for this...

[LSD/Cruise]

I know many rejected the idea. I personally think that Duresses are a great card in this deck, but I havent tested it much. Because this deck wants to bait it's lock components, why not just Duress away the counter and just lay down the lock component? I mean, it's better than baiting, since you also have access to information.

[LotusHead]

I totally get what you are saying, but would it be better as 3 Duress 1 Extripirate, 4 Duruss, 2 and 2 like I have it, or what?

[Phele]

A friend of mine created some version of pure black Staxx, that worked pretty good. His greatest innovation was the inclusion of four Phyreaxan Totem. I liked this very much, as it makes it much easier for him to cast one of his four Dark Confidants and Duress first turn and it also gives staxx a decent clock. He still plays Smokestack, Sphere and Chalice, but together with the Confidants and the Totems it plays out like Workshop-Aggro-Staxx. Its a good deck.

[TK]

Your reasoning for excluding chalice from your maindeck is deffinately flawed. You say that everyone has answers/hate for chalice such as rack and ruin, ancient grudge, oxidize, ect, but name how many deck in the format play those in there main.

If your so worried about these hate cards your strategy shouldnt be to sideboard chalice, but to maindeck it and board it out in every matchup. The idea of bringing it in after you are so worried about those select silver bullet answers to stax seems kinda ridiculous.

[Jo84]

Also the potential hate doesn´t affect only chalice... grudge, rack and ruin, oxidize, and so on will target your crucible, smokestack and so on.

So it´s rather good to let the chalices in to negate some of their hate and keeping them busy with removing your chalice while you setup your hard lock.

[Thegreatgonzo]

I agree with the idea of cutting chalices in color stax, it hurts you too bad. But still, in monobrown stax, it's quite a house. On a different topic, how good has been Timewalk in your testings? I never liked it in stax decks, because of, well, smokestack (and wire). Maybe you could cut it for another Duress/Extirpate.
About sideboard : 5C stax should definitly play with Root maze, in the board or even in the main. It's basically a better time walk in this deck, and it ruins gush for  .

Hope this helps,

The Great Gonzo

[netherspirit]

I've thought about adding Duress in Stax for a long time; it's just been a problem of finding space, though.

I really like the idea! It seems very good. As for the deck, though, I'd make the following changes:

-3 Smokestack
-1 Sphere of Resistance (I've always found 3 to be enough)
-1 Crop Rotation
+2 Tangle Wire (a lot better than Smokestack, it's faster and more abusable with Welder)
+3 Thirst for Knowledge

[Anusien]

It seems to me that Duress and Chalice of the Void do similar things, only Chalice shuts off future spells too, where Duress gives you information.  For example, I would rather Chalice @ 1 than Duress a Brainstorm (or whatever).

[Jo84]

Thirst and Wire increase the importance of welder, without that little guy, they are pretty useless and I think there is, thanks to GAT and Flash, enough creature removal around to deal with welder.

Also I strongly disagree that Wire > Stack. Wire doesn´t keep your opponent from reacting with instant spells, so the its tap out effect has on the longer term much less impact on the game state than Smokestack.

On the chalice topic... with welders, duress, extirpate, vampiric, crop rotation and vampiric, you have some reasons to abandon chalice, as set on one hurts you pretty hard.

But how viable is duress + extirpate in Stax?

It may be a nice call against combo decks, but in this case you should increase the count of at least duress. On the other hand Chalice of the Void is a strong card against combo too and can be cast with Workshop mana, so I don´t see that much improvement.

The other problem Stax has to deal with is creatures, as only creatures or storm-spells kill nowadays and except against Oath and Ichorid, I can´t see any use of extirpate to help you win the match.

Also I don´t think duress fits into the Stax theme against control. Let´s say you have a huge bomb to drop, i.e. Crucible as a setup for Strip Mine Lock or any kind of sphere. Your duress might hit the Force of Will, so your bomb can enter the game safely, but normally not the same turn (and the early turns are often the important ones).
So your opponent can do something like dropping his second island to avoid your strip mine with gush, play some mana to avoid being locked by spheres or a critter that will kill you if you don´t get a smokestack into play very quickly.
Also Stax can do too much with the information about your opponents hand, except if you use chalices.
Yeah, it might help you to decide which land to waste or if you should play sphere or smokestack first, but that´s a pretty weak effect compared to what duress does in other decks.

All-in-all I don´t think duress + extirpate are a good replacement for chalice of the void in the recent metagame.

[LSD/Cruise]

Grim Long cant play Duress and Wheel of Fortune on the same turn, and it's still works with the deck somehow.

[LordHomerCat]

When Grim Long plays Wheel, the game usually ends.  When you untap into crucible or smokestack, it doesn't actually do much of anything.  Therefore, GrimLong can afford to use its first turn just duressing, but you cant.

[LotusHead]

Therefore, GrimLong can afford to use its first turn just duressing, but you cant.

Decks that pack 4 Duress want to duress first turn.  Decks that pack 2 Duress want to Duress eventually.  The Duress plan is a "combo" with Extripirate.

Thanks for all the feedback guys, any SB advice?  My meta is the NorCal meta (lots of Dryads, always 1 random Flash deck, some Stax, occasional storm combo, some Bomberman, UWB Fish)

[LordHomerCat]

Duress eventually?  Honestly, if your plan is to cast duress on like turn 4 and then extirpate something... why don't you just wait until they cast something on their own?  Planning to draw one of your 2 duresses at some point, and then later in the game draw one of your 2 extirpates seems like a terrible plan.  Most spells that you would want to extirpate (gush, force, drain, ?) will get cast at some point anyway, or else they wont even be relevant because there are too many lock pieces out, and either way you can extirpate them then.  I just dont see drawing a duress on like turn 4 in your shop deck as being ideal.

[Implacable]

I would simply not run 2 Duress, in any deck.  Duress is a card that wants to be cast early, and, if you lucksack, often.  It is incredibly powerful in that it always takes the other guy's biggest bomb, and abusing the symmetrical gamestates that cards like Sphere, Wire, and now Duress create is what Stax does.  Why not just play 4?

[Outlaw]

Roland Chang and Ray Robilard both ran Duress in the board of their stax/staxless stax builds as it took the place over REB.  Duress in stax is nothing entirely new and it has been innovated months ago and already rotated out. 

[LotusHead]

I would simply not run 2 Duress, in any deck.  Duress is a card that wants to be cast early, and, if you lucksack, often.  It is incredibly powerful in that it always takes the other guy's biggest bomb, and abusing the symmetrical gamestates that cards like Sphere, Wire, and now Duress create is what Stax does.  Why not just play 4?

Technically, the 2 Duress 2 Extripate package is 4 cards, mostly as a replacement for Chalice of the Void.  My only testing nowadays is goldfishing and MWS, hence I'm reaching out to TMD for advice.

It's crazy. Stax wants to run 80 cards in a 60 card deck, but GAT has to find crap like Opt just to get to 60.

[madmanmike25]

I'm not sure that Extirpate is the card you are looking for.  Its a powerful effect to be sure, but it doesn't seem to add much to the deck.  It is either devastating or simply a minor setback for the opponent.  The bottom line is that it doesn't affect the current game state concerning permanents, something that is imperative for Stax decks.

The three biggest reasons to run multi-colored Stax for me is:

Demonic Tutor(Stripmine)
Vampiric Tutor(Stripmine)
Tinker(Crucible/Trinisphere/other game winning card)

Crucible/Strip is the BEST lockdown second to Trinisphere on turn 1.  Sphere of Resistance works nicely with Stripmine as well, but then again so does Chalice @ 0 for mana denial.

My suggestions:

1. Focus; do you want a Workshop utility deck, a Stax deck, or an Aggro deck?  Even a hybrid leans toward one more than the other.
2. Get rid of Extirpate.
3. Up the Tanglewire count or get rid of them.
4. Play with 4 Smokestacks or none at all.  This card is the reason they are called 'Stax' decks.
5. Put one copy of Ensnaring Bridge in the main since you can tutor for it to give you a great game vs Ichorid, Goblins and beefy Dryads.  You can weld it out when you are ready to win.
6. Try Duplicant if you see that many Dryads.
7.  Play with Fastbond.  It's an often overlooked card in multi-colored Stax.
8.  A lone copy of Possessed Portal might be worth looking into.

Though some would disagree, I would recommend 4 Crucibles as well.  It's more of a personal preference really, that card has always been so good to me.   Crucible would make Gemstone Mine suck a little less as well.  I usually want to see a Crucible every game if possible, hence the 4 copies.

Chalice in 5c Stax has always been a problem.   Most of the cards that make the deck viable conflict with Chalice set at 1 and 2.

That being said, Chalice is still an awesome lockpiece and what keeps my Stax deck mono red.  I'll take consistency over random bombs any day.

Good luck with the deck.