Gro-A-Tog sideboard strategy

[scipio]

First time poster, long-time lurker

Sorry if this is in the wrong category, or if it's being hashed out in another thread.

What do 'Tog players think about the sideboard options?  My meta seems to consist of the following:

'Tog
Flash
Ichorid
Stax (with or without stack)
Random Aggro

Given this, I'm deciding whether to run 4 Leyline and 3 Yixlid Jailer.  In playtesting, I've had significant problems with Ichorid, even post-board with all 7 hate cards (particularly in the contagion/charm/silence SB plan).  I tend to mulligan into one of these answers, only to get blown out by a flurry of contagion/charm/hardcast therapy/etc.  Further, devoting 7 cards to Ichorid with only Leyline doing double duty against Flash, that leaves few cards for the mirror and Stax - pyroblast/REB, the requisite Berserk, possibly Threads of Disloyalty, Hurkyl's, Artifact Mutation, Fire/Ice.

Has anyone found a nice blend?  I'm surprised that Steve eskewed the Leyline's in his winning build, but that certainly opens the door for a more diverse SB.  Was contagion less prevelant at Gen-Con?

Thanks.

-scipio

[Methuselahn]

I'm not sure who founded the plan exactly (ELD?), but Jailer + Needles is probably better than any combination of Leyline and Jailer.  The reason for this is that the Jailers are suboptimal if you've got a Leyline in your opening hand.  Since you will be playing the Leyline before the game starts, Jailer will likely sit there and do nothing if you're adequately protecting your leyline.

Using 6-7 Leylines is a different approach.  Obviously the least taxing on your manabase, but it is probably the card type most targeted by anti-hate.

The Jailer/Needle plan not only dodges popular enchantment hate, but is far easier to tutor up and cast.  This plan offers two angles of attack to stop Ichorid.  First, you have Needles to stop them from digging into solutions with Bazaar.  Second, Jailer stops Dredge.   As a side bonus, this plan can be used to hate on the KikiJiki Flash kill AND the welders in your meta.


Smother and Snuff out are also decent cards you should consider for your sideboard right now.

[Necrologia]

I'm also a fan of the Jailer + Needler plan over the 6 Leyline plan. With the 6 Leyline plan, a single Reverent Silence ends you. With multiple different permanent types, none of them being enchantments, the Ichorid player has a much harder time breaking out. Many Ichorid SB plans I've seen don't even include artifact hate, so Needle is a real problem for them. They can still win by drawing up to 8 and discarding, or else by casting some of their guys. Both are so much slower though that they shouldn't have much of a chance, especially if they mulliganed to 5 or lower.

My Standard GAT SB looks something like this:
3 REB/Pyro
3 Jailer
2 Needle
1 Oxidize
1 Rack and Ruin
1 Volcanic Island
1 Fire/Ice
2 Smother
1 Berserk

It has 4-6 cards for pretty much every matchup and has been working out really well for me so far. If you wanted to fit another Needle in, you could easily drop the Fire/Ice or a Smother. I just happen to like a good amount of removal due to the number of Mindcensors drifting around where I play.

[scipio]

Thanks for the replies - now for a little devil's advocacy.

I agree that Needle/Jailer give you good options, but only 5 sideboard answers to Ichorid seems light.  'Tog doesn't let you dig for answers through the tutor chain as easily as Keeper used to, mainly because of the mana base.  Gush limits your mana (unless you expend resources trying to get fastbond), and maindeck Chalice in Ichorid stresses that limitation.

'Tog is forced to win games 2 and 3 - relying on 5 answers, 3 of which are vulnerable to the non-Misdirectable Contagion, hasn't worked well in play-testing (mainly due to painful Mulligans).  I like that Void neuters the welder, hurts Flash, and slows Ichorid, but absolutely hate seeing it later in the game (somewhat mitigated by brainstorm/fetch land).

In short, the SB here (and by the reigning Vintage champ) probably are the proper mix to face a larger variety of decks, but requires more luck than I presently possess -at least the good kind- to take those two matches from Ichorid.

[The Atog Lord]

The Leyline plan is not the optimal plan against Ichorid. I think that ELD's plan of Jailer+Needle+Crypt is. So, why do I like the six Leyline plan? Because that _is_ the best plan I've found against Flash. Plans that attack Flash through cards like Red Blast are vulnerable to Pact of Negation, and the very quick wins which Flash gets too often. How can these quick wins be stopped in a way that doesn't walk directly into Flash's Pact Plan? Leylines. Leylines are the best solution I've seen to Flash to this date, working against both the Sliver kill and the Kiki-Jiki kill if anyone runs that.

The six Leylines also have a very strong game against Ichorid. Ideal? No. But unlike the other anti-Ichorid plans, they start working right away and prevent second turn kills. Without help from Moxen, Yixlid Jailer doesn't do that on the draw. So, I'm not saying the Leyline plan is ideal, but something like Jailer is only useful in one match while the Leylines are useful against multiple decks.

[Smmenen]

Was contagion less prevelant at Gen-Con?

Well, I think the Needle/Jailer plan assumes that your opponent has answers to them, but in fewer quantities than they have answers to Leyline, since Leyline is more common in general. 

[neckfire]

i have a tournament this saturday im using gat and i used the process that menendian described but i have one problem i have never played against a competent stax player and i dont know what do to do what is the optimal sb for them and what do you take out.for this theory im using the deck that stephen won the world championship with to figure this one out thanks.

[Grand Inquisitor]

5 sideboard answers to Ichorid seems light

You're right, it's just not enough.  The issue I have is that Ichorid (same as TAL) is that its such a small part of my meta that I hate wasting slots on narrow stuff like Jailer (even if he's the best choice because of effect and ability to dodge rev. silence).  I'm considering a configuration like:

4x leyline of the void
3x pithing needle

Which allows you to bring in 7 cards against ichorid, but it also allows you to bring in all of that against workshops.

i have never played against a competent stax player and i dont know what do to do what is the optimal sb for them and what do you take out

Ironically, Smennen and I were just talking about the difficulties in developing a SB plan for workshops and evaluating the threat level of different lock pieces during game play.  In spite of lots of testing I always seem to pick the wrong thing to counter against stax, so I tend to hedge against my own weakness by playing sweepers like leyline or energy flux.  However, with the above configuration I wouldn't want to dilute cunning wish any more by finding room for flux.  Assuming the red splash, I'd probably fill out the rest with something like:

1x berserk
1x Oxidize
1x Smother
1x Fire/Ice
1x Ancient Grudge
1x Rack and Ruin
2x Pyroblast

The sideboarding against stax (assuming on the play, G2) would be:

+4 Leyline of the void
+3 Pithing needle
+1 Fire/Ice
+1 Oxidize
+1 Ancient Grudge
+1 Rack and Ruin

(from steve's GenCon list)
-4 Duress
-3 Opt
-2 Misdirection
-1 Cunning Wish
-1 REB

This allows you to attack stax at every level with multiple cards.  It also gives lots of cover against the flash and ichorid matchups.

[Smmenen]

i have a tournament this saturday im using gat and i used the process that menendian described but i have one problem i have never played against a competent stax player and i dont know what do to do what is the optimal sb for them and what do you take out.for this theory im using the deck that stephen won the world championship with to figure this one out thanks.

My SB plan for stax at the Vintage Champs was:

+ 2 Pithing Needle
+ 1 Fire/Ice
+ 1 Rushing River
+ 1 Rack and Ruin
+ 1 Oxidize
+ 1 Ancient Grudge
+ 1 Island

- 4 Duress
- 2 Misdirection
- 1 Red Elemental Blast
- 1 Cunning Wish

The theory behind this sb plan is pretty simple: you want a lot of cards to address key artifacts and then a way to stop their recursion via Welder.  Needle and Fire Ice stop Welders and Wastelands, while the rest of the spells target key artifacts like Trinisphere or Sphere of Resistances.   The 3cc spells are included as a solution to double Chalice of the Void. 

 I have noticed, ironically, that Duress is actually very good against Staxless Stax, in contradistinction to regular Stax.   It is possible that some number of Duresses, perhaps 2, should remain for that matchup.   


Hope that helps. 

Stephen

[neckfire]

thanks much guys the only problem i have with this tournament is the stax matchup. everything else i can beat easly *fish is still hard and flash is well flash*

[Midknight]

Steve, how do you get away with just running a single Volcanic and a Mox Ruby, with all there strip effects. Four colors seems like your trying to do to much agaisnt Stax. Fire, Rack and Ruin, Ancient Grudge are all red sources, with only two possible ways ways to produce, not counting Lotus.

I know you can shut off wastedlands with pithing needle and Gush in responce and fetch only when need be, but for real four colors seems like alot agaisnt land destruction. Did you play agaisnt Stax at Vintage Worlds, and if so how did that work?

Since the deck is mainly blue, wouldn't Energy Flux be better overall. It even pitches to Force.

I do like Pithing Needle alot and its easy to cast first turn, as long as theres no Chalise at 1.

[KiernanM]

Four colors seems like your trying to do to much agaisnt Stax. Fire, Rack and Ruin, Ancient Grudge are all red sources, with only two possible ways ways to produce, not counting Lotus.

Yeah, I know this was addressed to Steve, it probably looks really bad to respond, but WTH.

GAT is prevalent.  Checking recent tournament result threadz, GAT appears more prevalent than Stax across metas, and *substantially* more prevalent than Stax in tournament top 8s.  So, you should plan on mirror matches, amirite? 

So let's assume you're playing a GAT mirror vs someone running red, and you don't.  My guess is, you probably lost any odds of a favorable matchup post-board, on the strength of a four 'Blast plan alone.  Maybe if you expect tons and tons of Stax, you could toy around with the idea of cutting red, but uh, IDK.  I'd defer to anyone else's speculation on that one...

Since the deck is mainly blue, wouldn't Energy Flux be better overall. It even pitches to Force.

GI gave a very sound reason not to opt for Energy Flux, see his previous post.  His argument is that, Flux devalues Cunning Wish (given that 6-8 sideboard slots already go to non-instant stuff like Needle, Leyline/Jailer, and an extra land card).  The assumption (a valid one, I would think) is that Cunning Wish is a valuable card, potentially enabling more plays than just "Um, get Berserk?!!!1" 

[Grand Inquisitor]

So let's assume you're playing a GAT mirror vs someone running red, and you don't.  My guess is, you probably lost any odds of a favorable matchup post-board, on the strength of a four 'Blast plan alone

As Smennen mentions in another thread, the GAT mirror can take many forms.  However, I haven't found reactive SB slots (REB, spell snare, smother, etc) to play a very crucial role.  It seems to be much more dependent on having less mana/more cantrips and above all, playskill (well, and sometimes who just draws better).  I will mention that in my metagamed version with white that Aven Mindcensor was a beating for my opponents.

GI gave a very sound reason not to opt for Energy Flux

True, but remember that was for a specific (and rare) configuration where you're already dedicating seven slots to leyline and needle.  In a lot of the three color lists from new england you'll see something like:

3x jailer
2x pithing
2x flux
2x crypt
6x instants

[Purple Hat]

I think there's a trap to fall into here that people should be aware of.  Instants are good, and there should definitely be some in your board, and even some that you only intend to fetch via wish ('zerk, singleton snuff out, etc) but to prioritize instants to the point that you're passing up better answers seems like a mistake to me.  Remember that you're only playing 1 wish.  having a massive wish board ala 2004 tog doesn't make much sense unless you're playing multiple wishes.

[Midknight]

The deck only runs 1 Cunning Wish, which was just stated. Whats the point, you can still run a oxidize, echoing truth in the board to go along with the Energy Flux. Why do you need 4-5 wish targets, when theres only one cunning wish.

I never said I didn't run the red splash, you assume that. I actrally run a single Volcanic Island in my board, and when I do sb in my rebs, I take out the single basic island. This is fine agaisnt the mirrior and everything else thats blue except for the blue decks that do run wastedlands, which is few right now.

[KiernanM]

So let's assume you're playing a GAT mirror vs someone running red, and you don't.  My guess is, you probably lost any odds of a favorable matchup post-board, on the strength of a four 'Blast plan alone

As Smennen mentions in another thread, the GAT mirror can take many forms.  However, I haven't found reactive SB slots (REB, spell snare, smother, etc) to play a very crucial role.  It seems to be much more dependent on having less mana/more cantrips and above all, playskill (well, and sometimes who just draws better).  I will mention that in my metagamed version with white that Aven Mindcensor was a beating for my opponents.

Mindcensor huh ... interesting.  I'd be curious to know more re: what you were up to w/ that.  

Anyway, my observation wasn't based on much experience playing GAT mirrors, so generally, I'd defer to someone who has it.  But 'Blasts increase your base of disruption by ~1/3 (vs blue cards), which (at 1c) should give you a slight theoretical edge over 3-color variants.  It also seems like it would be useful to bait/bluff your opponent by fetching Volcanic, under some circumstances...

'Blasts are probably more critical vs Flash than they are in the GAT mirror, though ...

GI gave a very sound reason not to opt for Energy Flux

True, but remember that was for a specific (and rare) configuration where you're already dedicating seven slots to leyline and needle.  In a lot of the three color lists from new england you'll see something like:

3x jailer
2x pithing
2x flux
2x crypt
6x instants

I'd be curious which instants you'd typically find in 3-color NE variants...  I played around some in NE 2 years ago, when I lived in NYC, I'm familiar with the style, generally...  And I wouldn't be surprised at all if Flash was very rare, in that meta...

Since you don't plan to win all at once, I'd think cards like Ancient Grudge and Rack/Ruin + Needles > 1-2 bounce + Flux (+ Needles?).  Another problem I see w/ Flux is, Staxless Stax can just run Eon Hub and -Tangle Wires.  They can also just pay the 2 upkeep to keep their critical stuff, so ... there's that.  The only real advantage Flux has that I can see is, you can Scroll for it...  Overall, though, regardless of whether you +/- red, in Stax-heavy metas I'd say, consider running 3-4 Mana Drains...

I don't mean to overemphasize the strategic importance of instants in the sideboard of a deck that runs a single Cunning Wish... I'm not saying, "Run 15 instants in the board, guyz!"  But you could always just run Berserk main and - Wish, right?  So, the usefulness of Wish *is* important. 

@ Midknight - I didn't assume you run red or don't run red... You were debating over it, if I'm not mistaken.  So I thought I'd hazard a few observations.  I wasn't trying to "refute" you or w/e.

Stephen's board @ Gencon had (for artifact answers) Oxidize, Ancient Grudge, and Rack and Ruin, along w/ Rushing River, to combat (I'm guessing?) a number of different Chalice configurations etc.  Grudge and Rack also net cards, so... I like the idea.

[Midknight]

I like the red splash alot, its very good agaisnt the mirror, flash, etc. I just dont aggree with putting the red splash in agaisnt Stax. Thats bumping the deck up to four colors, agaisnt land destruction.  Maybe I need to test stax with Steve sb, to see how well it really does. It just doesnt appear to me, to be the best.

[Necrologia]

I like the red splash alot, its very good agaisnt the mirror, flash, etc. I just dont aggree with putting the red splash in agaisnt Stax. Thats bumping the deck up to four colors, agaisnt land destruction.  Maybe I need to test stax with Steve sb, to see how well it really does. It just doesnt appear to me, to be the best.

Is there really much of a difference between 3 and 4 colors against Wasteland.dec? At most you'd be running 1 more Island over a Volcanic. Unless the Stax player rips Strip Mine turn 1, a single basic should be plenty. Fetch the basic out, then get a dual and Gush is online. Even turn 1 you have Pithing Needle for further Waste/Strip Protection.

I think having access to more varied and powerful artifact removal is worth the loss of a single Island.

[Yare]

Is there really much of a difference between 3 and 4 colors against Wasteland.dec? At most you'd be running 1 more Island over a Volcanic. Unless the Stax player rips Strip Mine turn 1, a single basic should be plenty. Fetch the basic out, then get a dual and Gush is online. Even turn 1 you have Pithing Needle for further Waste/Strip Protection.

I think having access to more varied and powerful artifact removal is worth the loss of a single Island.

The issue is not just the one basic island.  The issue is also "Do I fetch for Tropical Island, Underground Sea, Volcanic Island, or Island?"  Adding another color makes it harder to play the spells.  If you end up fetching for a Volcanic, you may not be able to play a Duress later because you don't have black mana.  Or perhaps in fetching for a Volcanic your only Tropical Island in play gets destroyed, as opposed to the two you would have had had you fetched a second one instead of Volcanic.  Some of this can impact you in every match, not just the wasteland.dec matchup.

[Necrologia]

The issue is not just the one basic island.  The issue is also "Do I fetch for Tropical Island, Underground Sea, Volcanic Island, or Island?"  Adding another color makes it harder to play the spells.  If you end up fetching for a Volcanic, you may not be able to play a Duress later because you don't have black mana.  Or perhaps in fetching for a Volcanic your only Tropical Island in play gets destroyed, as opposed to the two you would have had had you fetched a second one instead of Volcanic.  Some of this can impact you in every match, not just the wasteland.dec matchup.

Having a volcanic over a basic Island matters only trivially in a non-wasteland matchup. The only reason you'd ever fetch out the Volcanic over a Sea or Trop is if you plan on casting a red spell right away. Since most maindecks run 1-2 red spells it doesn't come up very often. Black and Green are still the main colors to get out ASAP.

The worst case scenario is where you're forced to fetch out a Volc to REB something, while holding a black or green card, correct? Even in that situation, I'd rather have the red splash. I'd rather have cards stranded in my hand than have an opponent resolve a recall or similar game breaking spell. I prefer digging for a green source to outright losing the game.

In the Wasteland.dec matchup, the red splash can be a help or a hindrance depending on what you're playing against and what your maindeck looks like. As I mentioned above, I have a lot of Mind censors locally. I've actually moved the SB Fire/Ice to the main in order to help with Fish and Bomberman game 1. It's been absolutely golden so far. My fish matchup stays solid and I still have the red Splash to help in the mirror and against Stax post sideboard.

Against Stax, the red splash is excellent from my experience. Having to fetch an extra color is rarely that big of a deal. You bring in a bunch of red cards, but it's typically at the expense of black cards. Fetching a Volcanic out becomes higher priority, but fetching Seas is much less important without the potential for turn 1 Duress.

[Smmenen]

  Maybe I need to test stax with Steve sb, to see how well it really does. It just doesnt appear to me, to be the best.

You have no faith :p

Trust me 

Stephen

[KiernanM]

I think having access to more varied and powerful artifact removal is worth the loss of a single Island.

Plus, like, if you're expecting more Fish + Stax + weaksauce w/ Wasteland than GAT + Bomberman then you could put Library in the board and use like 3 Strand/Delta/Sea, 2 Tropical, 2 Island, and 1 Volcanic main. 

[simo66]

My SB plan for stax at the Vintage Champs was:

+ 2 Pithing Needle
+ 1 Fire/Ice
+ 1 Rushing River
+ 1 Rack and Ruin
+ 1 Oxidize
+ 1 Ancient Grudge
+ 1 Island

- 4 Duress
- 2 Misdirection
- 1 Red Elemental Blast
- 1 Cunning Wish

I'm glad to see you finally adopted ancient grudge, for a while you had Rack and Ruin in over it, which I could never really figure out. Although it's quite probable that I'm missing something... after all I'm not the Vintage World Champion.

[shadowofrpgfreak]

for a while you had Rack and Ruin in over it, which I could never really figure out.

Think the main reason for Rack and Ruin is that it dodges chalice @2, which can cause a number of problems for Gro. Blast the chalice that's bugging you, and hit another troublemaker at the same time... win-win =P

[KiernanM]

I'm glad to see you finally adopted ancient grudge

Seriously, Ancient Grudge is soo good... 2x Gro, card advantage, sick!1   If I thought I could get away w/ it I'd run 0 Oxidize and 2 Grudge along w/ 1 Rack + Ruin, but I'd have to test that out first...

[Setnakt]

Personally I dropped the Oxidize pretty quick. I hated seeing it and never Wished for it. I would just stick to the R+R and Grudges.

[KiernanM]

Personally I dropped the Oxidize pretty quick. I hated seeing it and never Wished for it. I would just stick to the R+R and Grudges.

Yeah, I'm w/ u on that one.  I was just thinking, Annul could be a good replacement for Oxidize if tests showed that a 1c anti-artifact card is necessary.  It has to be played differently, but it Gros, it's Scroll-able, it's pitch-able, and it's inherently more flexible - it counters Moat and Humility, LOL!! 

Not to mention, like, Necro + Bargain.  Oh yeah!  And Fastbond!  And In the Eye of Chaos, and Chains of Mephistopheles, because I mean, vomit on those cards... ;p

[zeus-online]

I actually won a game against charbelcher thanks to oxidize....I duress'ed him and saw 4-5 threats (a couple of belchers, and some broken stuff like tinker)
So i cunning wish'ed for oxidize and blew his sol ring away, slowing his hand down sufficiently to take control of the game and eventually combo him out.

I would not have won that game without oxidize. But then again, maybe i would win a game i wouldn't have won by running more Ancient grudges.

I'd probably just run multiple different solutions, i prefer it that way.

/Zeus

[KiernanM]

I actually won a game against charbelcher thanks to oxidize....I duress'ed him and saw 4-5 threats (a couple of belchers, and some broken stuff like tinker)
So i cunning wish'ed for oxidize and blew his sol ring away, slowing his hand down sufficiently to take control of the game and eventually combo him out.

I would not have won that game without oxidize. But then again, maybe i would win a game i wouldn't have won by running more Ancient grudges.

I'd probably just run multiple different solutions, i prefer it that way.

/Zeus

The thing that sux about Oxidize is, it's green.  Dryads get nothing out of Oxidize.  Obviously the Gro factor doesn't control every situation, but it's the most reliable way to win.  If something else (ie not a green card) can effectively replace Oxidize, then you should -Oxidize.  In theory. 

If a blue card would work, that's the safest thing, since 1 - you can Scroll it, 2 - Misdirection + Force mean its unlikely to be dead, and 3 - versus Stax, you may need to fetch basic Island(s) to stabilize.  The only blue cards I can think of, though, are Annul and Chain of Vapor atm.  I can't imagine Hurkyl's or Rebuild competing for the same slot as Oxidize, but Chain could work maybe.  Annul might be awesome but I'd really need to test it to have an opinion.

If Grudge would work, that's the ideal scenario, since 1 - Flashback --> card advantage and more Gro, and 2 - it's better than Rack and Ruin assuming RG1 is available since double Grudge will Gro more.  But it's easy to imagine Grudge being too slow in critical situations like the one you mentioned (unless you could somehow discard it). 

In the situation you described, would Chain of Vapor work? 

[Liam-K]

I've been testing Chain in my build, hoping it might be doable... fact of the matter is, your opponent saccing a land to bounce a large dryad sucks for you.