Gro-A-Tog sideboard strategy

[zeus-online]

I actually won a game against charbelcher thanks to oxidize....I duress'ed him and saw 4-5 threats (a couple of belchers, and some broken stuff like tinker)
So i cunning wish'ed for oxidize and blew his sol ring away, slowing his hand down sufficiently to take control of the game and eventually combo him out.

I would not have won that game without oxidize. But then again, maybe i would win a game i wouldn't have won by running more Ancient grudges.

I'd probably just run multiple different solutions, i prefer it that way.

/Zeus

The thing that sux about Oxidize is, it's green.  Dryads get nothing out of Oxidize.  Obviously the Gro factor doesn't control every situation, but it's the most reliable way to win.  If something else (ie not a green card) can effectively replace Oxidize, then you should -Oxidize.  In theory. 

If a blue card would work, that's the safest thing, since 1 - you can Scroll it, 2 - Misdirection + Force mean its unlikely to be dead, and 3 - versus Stax, you may need to fetch basic Island(s) to stabilize.  The only blue cards I can think of, though, are Annul and Chain of Vapor atm.  I can't imagine Hurkyl's or Rebuild competing for the same slot as Oxidize, but Chain could work maybe.  Annul might be awesome but I'd really need to test it to have an opinion.

If Grudge would work, that's the ideal scenario, since 1 - Flashback --> card advantage and more Gro, and 2 - it's better than Rack and Ruin assuming RG1 is available since double Grudge will Gro more.  But it's easy to imagine Grudge being too slow in critical situations like the one you mentioned (unless you could somehow discard it). 

In the situation you described, would Chain of Vapor work? 

No he would have you just replayed the sol ring and cast a game-ending threat i was unable to stop at that time.

Going with 1 oxidize, 1 grudge, 1 rack and ruin should be pretty solid.

Growing the dryad isn't the end all be all, it's usually not that hard to grow it anyways, so casting a few spells that are green really shouldn't be relevant.

/Zeus

Edit: I'd also like to point out that if your main problem with oxidize is that it dosn't grow the dryad, then chain of vapour is the worst possible substitute, since the opponent can just sac a land to undo all the growing.

[Xman]

As for the mirror, how do most of you board for it?  I played the mirror 3 times in Indy, and boarded the same way every time.  +1 Smother, +1 Fire/Ice, +1 Truth, -1 Opt, -1 Scroll, -1 Pyroblast/REB (can't remember what this last card was that I generally boarded out).  I found that I would get the right cards & smother is golden in the mirror.  Vs. GAT, I won all the matches, and I went 2-0, 2-1, 2-1, along with a 2-0 vs. gush Tendrils with a similar board move.

What do you guys generally do?

[Grand Inquisitor]

your opponent saccing a land to bounce a large dryad sucks for you.

...and is the reason why chain of vapor is completely unacceptable in this deck.  If you want a scrollable answer in the stax matchup, go with hurkyl's recall.  If you can cast scroll, you can cast the recall, and you can use oxidize, et al to take care of chalice @2.

I'm not sure how many people have tested this, but leyline continues to be gold for me in the stax matchup (mostly staxless in my area).  Leyline, pithing needle and E.E. have been more than enough to swing the matchup, and you don't need to be fickle about color selection.

[sorcutt]

your opponent saccing a land to bounce a large dryad sucks for you.

...and is the reason why chain of vapor is completely unacceptable in this deck.  If you want a scrollable answer in the stax matchup, go with hurkyl's recall.  If you can cast scroll, you can cast the recall, and you can use oxidize, et al to take care of chalice @2.

I'm not sure how many people have tested this, but leyline continues to be gold for me in the stax matchup (mostly staxless in my area).  Leyline, pithing needle and E.E. have been more than enough to swing the matchup, and you don't need to be fickle about color selection.

Leyline is amazing in the staxless stax matchup because it shuts down 8 very obvious cards (4x welder, 3x crucible, and the bazaar) right off the bat.  Those 8 cards are some of the strongest cards that staxless stax has in fighting gat.  Leyline effectively renders close to 1/6 of stax less stax useless.  Post board gat with the inclusion of  leyline and other hate should have little problem with staxless stax.

[Hi-Val]

The thing that sux about Oxidize is, it's green.  Dryads get nothing out of Oxidize.  Obviously the Gro factor doesn't control every situation, but it's the most reliable way to win.  If something else (ie not a green card) can effectively replace Oxidize, then you should -Oxidize.  In theory. 

First, if you're changing up spells for the reason that they pump Dryad, you're doing it wrong. There's a subtle strategic thing when playing GAT that you should ignore Dryads on your table. The strength of them is that you can make them bigger without work. When you run other things to make them better, you hurt your plan. This is why I eventually ran REB over Pyroblast in my maindeck last weekend. I heard several stories from people that, that day, they had lost because someone Misdirected their Pyroblast on a Tog or something else. But I'm getting into the weeds here.

If you're looking for a Scrollable answer, use Rushing River. It's phenomenal because you can bounce two discrete perms with it, and it also costs 3 mana so it dodges things like Chalice. Russian River bailed me out of a couple tight situations last weekend and I wouldn't replace it with any other bounce.

[Purple Hat]

Someone suggested illusion/reality a while ago, not sure anyone ever did anything with that.  it's 3cc artifact removal that's scrollable.

[Yare]

Someone suggested illusion/reality a while ago, not sure anyone ever did anything with that.  it's 3cc artifact removal that's scrollable.

Well, you can't scroll it up with Chalice for 2 on the table, which is a slight concern I suppose.  Then again, you can't play Oxidize with Chalice for 1 on the table either.

[LordHomerCat]

As for the mirror, how do most of you board for it?  I played the mirror 3 times in Indy, and boarded the same way every time.  +1 Smother, +1 Fire/Ice, +1 Truth, -1 Opt, -1 Scroll, -1 Pyroblast/REB (can't remember what this last card was that I generally boarded out).  I found that I would get the right cards & smother is golden in the mirror.  Vs. GAT, I won all the matches, and I went 2-0, 2-1, 2-1, along with a 2-0 vs. gush Tendrils with a similar board move.

What do you guys generally do?

I don't really get why you board OUT your REB.  I mean, the reason I played one main is specifically for the mirror and flash.  I boarded +1 submerge, + 1 smother, +2 reb, -1 opt, -1 fire/ice, -1 Island or drain, -1 vampiric tutor.  Card disadvantage tutors kinda sucked if the game was even from my experience since you just straight up lose a card, drains are much worse than REB most of the time, and I was running 19 mana main so I didn't really need the last source against a deck with no mana denial.  I personally don't find fire/ice very relevant in the mirror either, it doesnt do anything about tog or a 3/3 dryad and the best thing it can do is tap a dude for one turn.  Personally if I really need that effect I can use my Wish to go get it but otherwise I would rather draw a counterspell, an action spell, or a kill spell (like smother).

The REB's were amazing, the creature kill was less impressive though.  I will probably cut my smother for something else (maybe a pyroclasm) since I never really wanted to actually kill a dryad, Rushing River or submerge would be just as good 99% of the time and both are blue (and one is even free!).

[Xman]

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<snip>

I can't really remember what that last card generally was, but I do know I hardly ever used the REB that was main.  Most games it felt like a bad draw when I got to it.  I almost always wished I had something like a truth or a river at that moment instead of a REB.  Most likely a dumb play on my part, but I didn't feel it was strong at all.  Maybe I didn't draw it enough, or use it enough, but it just felt weak.  And now that I think about it, it might have been an extra opt I borded out.  I can't remember what the third card was.

Oh, and Doug, I did mis-D Brian's Pyro in round one, making him lose the game by my tog, so I see where you are coming from on that one.

As for Smother over Submerge, I came to a simple conclusion.  Kill the opposing Dryad/Tog or just have to deal with it again next turn?  I understand the alternate casting cost, but during the tournament smother was invaluable.  It allowed me to get a win on turn 5 of extra turns for the match.  It also allowed me to stop when they swung for the win or got a decent size dryad against me.  I can see where both are good

As for Fire/Ice in the mirror, I used it a little.  I brought it in to either (a) kill an early Dryad or (b) tap it down later, netting me a card & letting me live one more turn.  Or gettng me around his blocker if I couldn't go for 'zerk.  But I mainly brought it in for an early answer fif I drew it.  but it wasn't a superstar in the mirror.  That distinction would go to smother.

[Liam-K]

your opponent saccing a land to bounce a large dryad sucks for you.

...and is the reason why chain of vapor is completely unacceptable in this deck.  If you want a scrollable answer in the stax matchup, go with hurkyl's recall.  If you can cast scroll, you can cast the recall, and you can use oxidize, et al to take care of chalice @2.

I'm not sure how many people have tested this, but leyline continues to be gold for me in the stax matchup (mostly staxless in my area).  Leyline, pithing needle and E.E. have been more than enough to swing the matchup, and you don't need to be fickle about color selection.

Leyline vs. anything running crucible and welder is a house (consider it vs a strip/loam plan too).

re: chain of vapor.  I know this is the theory, I wanted to try it and see if a weak card in some situations was strong enough to justify by its utility in every other, particularly since bouncing something is often a break-out play where mana cost really counts.  Chaining an opposing fastbond in response to gush is also not a terrible play, and the obvious pitches or gets shuffled back arguement applies.  Nevertheless I found the common wisdom to hold true.  I'm currently giving Boomerang a shot in the slot, un-sexy as that seems.  Honestly not hating it.

[LordHomerCat]

Why play boomerang over Rushing River or Echoing Truth?  Truth is only worse when you both have dryads (but is excellent against warrens), and River bounces two things (like chalices and stuff) AND can't be misdirected (if thats a concern, like in the mirror).  If you are willing to spend UU on it in the mirror, why not just go for 2U and bounce two dudes at the same time plus play around MisD?

[ctps85]

hy, this is my first post in foreigns forum (i'm italian). i think that chain of vapors isn't a great card vs stax becouse its cauntered by cotv at 1. in the maindeck i play rusching river and echoing truth with cunning wish but in sideboard i use hurkill recall, oxide and energy flux.

this is my italian sideboard:

- 4 leyline of the void
- 1 oxide (target for wish)
- 1 hurkills recall
- 4 energy flux
- 1 berserk
- 1 brain freeze ( winning more)
- 3 extirpate ( vs control deck)

extirpate is a very strong card vs ichorid, control (mdg gift, ttoath) . energy flux is very slow in this deck but is the only solution vs artifact.deck becouse the oxide destroy ONE artifact not all

[Geeba]

Hey, I just started getting back into vintage from quite a long retreat into the legacy format. I was wondering, considering the problems GAT has with heavy aggro, would propaganda be an option, next to leyline and needles? Of course it can be REB'ed, but every answer has answer to it. I can see it being useful against ichorid-bridge and goblins. It may be even boarbable vs. hulk flash, if they use the sliver kill. What do you guys think? Does the onmipresence of REB/p.blast and the 2u cc make it unplayable?

Cheers

[Grand Inquisitor]

considering the problems GAT has with heavy aggro

You were misinformed.  GAT is what pushed aggro out of the format in the first place.

Ichorid isn't really aggro; it's grave based combo.  Regardless, propaganda really isn't an answer.  I've tried it, and since it doesn't shut down bazaar, it's just a matter of time until they find emerald charm or reverent silence.

Goblins is a different case.  I haven't been convinced of this myself, but many on this site will testify that Goblins is able to beat GAT by attacking from a number of different angles (blasts and pillar > spells, removal > creatures, grave>yawgwill) while keeping a relatively fast clock using broken goblin tricks.  Propaganda is probably overly prone to blasts here, and unless you're willing to splash white for ghostly prison, you're better off with engineered plague, beb's, or something else entirely (zombie infestation?).

As I mentioned before, it's been my experience that good GAT hands beat goblins, and bad hands lose to it.  Neither deck has changed much since the first incarnation of GAT (Gobbos got warchief, GAT got designed better), and Gobbos wasn't on the radar then.  Take that as you will.

[Hi-Val]

If you're really concerned about Goblins, then run a Firestorm. It's a complete blowout card against them.

I don't like Energy Flux on the sideboard because it isn't an "active" card. Often, there will be only one or two artifacts you really need to blow away. Grudge, Oxidize or Rushing River take care of those. When an opponent has Chalice at 1 down and Ankh, they'll be happy to tap a Wasteland and a City of Brass to keep you completely locked out of combo-kills. I'd much rather have something that gets in there and takes care of the problems instead of letting the opponent make the choices.

On top of that, Flux costs infinite mana when Sphere of Resistance is out...

[ctps85]

i have fear of four color becose prisonon deck have five slands and fetching two land off color isn't good. i think that with oxide and hurkill (active card) destroing sphere and tangle wire, then we casting flux (passive card) for lock the game. phiting needle is a good tech vs wasteland and strip no?

[Zwadishim]

The theory to use, particularly in vintage, is the theory about how many cards it takes to prevent something/do something vs. how many cards it takes to stop that same thing.

A person has a roughly 48 to 49 percent chance of drawing a card in thier opening seven cards.  This means that for each sideboard card, it will show up about half the time in the early game.  However, some sideboard cards require that there be more than one card necessary to deal with them.  In the dredge example, we can still like the leyline because the dredge decks are dependant on the 1, the mana source, 2 the enchantment hate, and 3 the bazzar in order to beat you, unless you are playing a slower deck in which they can dredge one turn at a time.  This may be the case, but considering the amount of mana these decks play, it is quite reasonable to say that given that you have drawn leyline to start, they have low odds of dealing with it on the next turn.  You only need the leyline while they need 2 cards to get rid of it.  The decks that play dryad arbor have a higher chance of fighting off the leyline because they have more green mana, but there is little that can talk me out of leyline.

This theory can be applied to force of will in a similar way.  When compared to counterspell, force of will is more card efficient in a limited context.  In order to counter a spell with force of will, it is only necessary to have one other card in hand, while it is necessary to have 2 blue sources for a counterspell (ignore the fact that this mana must be untapped which is an additional disadvantage of counterspell).  Force of will actually costs less resources, and probably less important resources to boot, which is why it has become the counterspell of choice, even in attrition wars where mana is quite valuable.

The major problem with many decks is their inability to function without the cards working in tandem.  Decks are much better when the cards all play strong rolls on thier own than when the cards are highly specialized.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

considering the problems GAT has with heavy aggro

You were misinformed.  GAT is what pushed aggro out of the format in the first place.

Ichorid isn't really aggro; it's grave based combo.  Regardless, propaganda really isn't an answer.  I've tried it, and since it doesn't shut down bazaar, it's just a matter of time until they find emerald charm or reverent silence.

Goblins is a different case.  I haven't been convinced of this myself, but many on this site will testify that Goblins is able to beat GAT by attacking from a number of different angles (blasts and pillar > spells, removal > creatures, grave>yawgwill) while keeping a relatively fast clock using broken goblin tricks.  Propaganda is probably overly prone to blasts here, and unless you're willing to splash white for ghostly prison, you're better off with engineered plague, beb's, or something else entirely (zombie infestation?).

As I mentioned before, it's been my experience that good GAT hands beat goblins, and bad hands lose to it.  Neither deck has changed much since the first incarnation of GAT (Gobbos got warchief, GAT got designed better), and Gobbos wasn't on the radar then.  Take that as you will.

I've tested both sides of this match up with a few different GAT variants. Obviously goblins can't beat turn 1 broken unless its will based game 1 (g2 the heavy reb's and spirit guides make it a little difficult). The strength that goblins have is that 2x misdirection and 4x duress barely touch it. As for goblins not changing much, I'd disagree. Goblins have the ability to turn 0 blast spells, turn 0 leylines, zo-zu attacks your engine (as well as hoses fetch lands), and vial @ 2 and sting scourger can reduce your 20/20 dryad back to 1/1 at any time, no matter how many duress and FOW you have.
I've found that the red splash/ combo GAT variants have a better game plan against goblins, obviously due to an easily accessible tinker, or at the very least fire/ice main deck, as well as SB cards like pyroclasm. I don't see propaganda being more functional that any of these existing methods. Aside from propaganda being a slow red blast target, I've seen many a goblin player basically lock out GAT with a solo zo-zu, wastelands and a well placed blast. Propaganda might save you 1 or 2 turns clock wise (while they get that land to replace the 1st wasteland), but doesn't do anything to get your engine back on line.

[EVG]

I see that this topic has not been getting much love, but with the amount of GRO that is still prevalent in most T1 Meta's I was hoping to revive the discussion. In my opinion, the format has shifted more towards aggro (it has at least up here in the Northeast) and there is significantly less Combo and Control. Playing at TMC 2 a few weeks ago, I managed to top 8 but I did run into 2 Oath Decks(killer) and 2 3uu control decks (I crushed in the swiss and lost to in the first round of top 8). My build did not run the wish engine, it was Rich Shays build with the Berserk in the MD. My board was identical to his with :
3 Pyroclasm
2 Needle
2 Jailer
3 REB
1 Volc
4 Energy Flux

As you can probably see Oath crushed me because other then counters and a single E. Truth, I had no way to deal with a turn one or 2 Oath. I found that goblins is a 50-50 match that only gets better after board. The lack of Cunning Wish makes SB construction a bit more tricky. I know I may be wrong, but a Leyline would seriously help against the mirror and against a few other match-ups. I feel more testing is needed in order to find the optimal SB.
Any new ideas for SB tech are welcome

[SyntheticAngel]

I am feeling Leylines in the board because they are good against Ichorid, Combo, Dragon (Should you play against it). If I am correct it screws Oath by not letting Blessing do any good as well as getting rid of the Krosan Rec. combo, and Flash of Insight.

[EVG]

Well R/G aggro has also been showing up recently and Leyline appears as if it will have no effect there, except that it can make your goyfs weaker...
Leyline is also good against some forms of Oath, but once they have an Akroma out they dont need to activate Oath any more. Also each build of oath is different, so one never knows how useful the Leyline will be. Smother in my opinion is very good in the mirror against opposing Goyfs and whatnot..

[Jo84]

Has anyone considered Trygon Predator? He is a much slower answer to artifacts, but if he hits the board turn 2 or 3 Stax will lose if they don´t hold a Trike or Dupe.

Moreover he is good against Threads of Disloyalty and Phyrexian Dreadnoughts, does 2 damage per turn and is ON-color (you don´t need to fetch the Volcanic and can go the normal route). Also he dodges Thorn, can grow your Dryad and isn´t taken out by Chalice.

I prefer him over Hurkyl's as Chalice @ 2 should be the first choice for Staxx against GAT, as it shuts off Dryads, Goyfs, Scrolls AND Hurkyl's Recall. Also obviously Predator is better than Rebuild, except the fact you can´t scroll up for him, but on the other hand he can handle enchantments too.