SCG Indianapolis Updates

[desolutionist]

I just got off the phone with dxfiler.

128 people.

All of ICBM is playing Gush Tendrils

at the end of round 3:

Dan Carp (Gush Tendrils) 1-2

Feinstein (Fish) 2-1 (arrived late for round 1 loss)

Smmenen (GAT) 2-1

TK (Gush Tendrils) 3-0

I@n (Gush Tendrils) 3-0

Dave's phone is really bad and we keep losing our connection.  I'll post more as I can get a hold of him.

[Moxlotus]

Nice--128 people.  A very strong showing for the midwest area.

[desolutionist]

TK is X-0

Smmenen got knocked out by Feinstein

Feinstein lost to Flash

Rich Shay and Spooky Kid are playing for 4-1, I believe.  It looks good for Rich.

[hauntedechos]

GO DAVE GO!!!!!!

let's hear it for FISH!!!!!!!!!  YEAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!

ok, I'm sorry guys, terrible of me, but hey man I'm a Fish player (sufferer, however you look at it) and I get really happy when I see results like this.

Anyways Dave, you're the man, beating Steve like that is crazy, can't wait for the report on that one.
way to go ICMB.

cheers
Mike

[Moxlotus]

Top8:
Jim Erlinger with Ichorid
Tommy Kolowith (icbm) with 4c Gush Tendrils
Owen Tutterwold (icbm) with 4c Gush Tendrils
Chirs Nighbor (icbm) with 4c Gush Tendrils
Mastriano (meandeck)-Gush Tendrils
Hi-Val (meandeck)-GAT
2 other guys that had 4 merchant scrolls and 4 gushes

To recap:
1 Ichorid
7 Scroll and Gush decks

In conclusion: This metagame blows.

EDIT:  info added

[desolutionist]

Top8:
Jim Erlinger with Ichorid
Tommy Kolowith (icbm) with 4c Gush Tendrils
Owen Tutterwold (icbm) with 4c Gush Tendrils
Chirs Nighbor (icbm) with 4c Gush Tendrils
4 other guys that had 4 merchant scrolls and 4 gushes

Hi Val (Meandeck) with GAT
Mastriano (Meandeck) with Gush Tendrils

This tournament has convinced me to go to Chicago.

[Klep]

Boy, that is pretty much the worst top 8 ever, from a format health standpoint.

[Kowal]

In conclusion: This metagame blows.

QFT

[Sextiger]

Hopefully, the big wigs are paying attention to tourney results. 

[oneofchaos]

You shouldn't be complaining because wizards did ban the most powerful card in the format

[Shade]

Jim Erlinger beat, I believe, 3 Tog decks, including one piloted by Rich Shay, and was ranked first after six rounds.

Ichorid is no joke.

[nataz]

Smmenen got knocked out by Feinstein

not a knock against steve or anything but-

<3 DAVE

He's been saying for weekds now how he can't wait to knock steve out of SCG Indy. All in good fun of course, but its hillarious that it actually happend.

[hazard]

Jim Erlinger beat, I believe, 3 Tog decks, including one piloted by Rich Shay, and was ranked first after six rounds.

Ichorid is no joke.

And how about the skill level required to pilot it?

[MarkPharaoh]

Jim Erlinger beat, I believe, 3 Tog decks, including one piloted by Rich Shay, and was ranked first after six rounds.

Ichorid is no joke.

And how about the skill level required to pilot it?

lol, you want something that requires nothing but skill go play chess you wanker.

Congrats to all who made T8...ICBM showing why we are the best

Verbal warning for violation of Rule 2, Inflammatory Posting (flames).  -DA

[The Atog Lord]

That was a fun day. I got 9th place, losing one round each to Ichorid and Paul M with Gush Storm. Hi-Val had better tie breakers by less than one point for eight place. Overall, I was happy with my decklist, which was only a few cards off from my Worlds list. Maindeck I cut a Tropical Island for a seventh fetchland and the regrowth for a third Opt. I enjoyed hanging out with everyone and dinner with Dante. It was great to have a Star City event in Indianapolis.

[desolutionist]

Rich, after Waterbury and Worlds do you really think you deserved the better breakers? :p

Gratz on winning the Twister.

[v4ino]

Hopefully, the big wigs are paying attention to tourney results. 

We have to wait to see what the field was in general - play skill has as much or more to do with who T8's than any other factor (Did the best Shop players show up for example). Hopefully Europe can demonstrate that scroll-gush is not an unstoppable machine.

[diopter]

Top8:
Jim Erlinger with Ichorid
Tommy Kolowith (icbm) with 4c Gush Tendrils
Owen Tutterwold (icbm) with 4c Gush Tendrils
Chirs Nighbor (icbm) with 4c Gush Tendrils
Mastriano (meandeck)-Gush Tendrils
Hi-Val (meandeck)-GAT
2 other guys that had 4 merchant scrolls and 4 gushes

To recap:
1 Ichorid
7 Scroll and Gush decks

In conclusion: This metagame blows.

EDIT:  info added

To recap:
ICBM and Meandeck took five top 8 spots.

Conclusion: Skilled players on good Vintage teams blow.

Man Vintage sucks! Skilled players can dominate wtih good decks!

[LordHomerCat]

Technically, there were only 27 Scrolls in the top 8 since Paul only had 3.

There was a TON of GAT/Gush Tendrils decks there, from what I saw, followed by a lot of Shops, and then a random collection of things like 3cBomberman, goblins, ichorid (I saw a lot of people who brought ichorid because it cost like $40 to play and they lived close, even if they didnt play vintage), flash, and god knows what else.  Most of the best players were playing Gush decks (minus the usual shop players like Nam Tran and jeremy seroogy), which as expected led to a very gush heavy top 8.  Finals ended up Doug Linn vs. Owen, they split the prizes and did not end up playing it out since doug had just finished a 2hour+ match with Nighbor.

Mastriano's GT list had Necro and (i think) multiple rituals, pushing it more toward some hybrid gush-long deck, while the ICBM decks were heavily gro inspired and seemed very similar to TK's list from Gencon.

[Dante]

just got home - some other notable items in top 16 were 10th place R/G beatz (kird ape, tarmogoyf, skyshroud elite, etc) at 6-2 (same record as shay and doug) and nick antes with a u/r/b landstill/mask deck.

@ Rich - a real sit down dinner did hit the spot...

[Moxlotus]

Top8:
Jim Erlinger with Ichorid
Tommy Kolowith (icbm) with 4c Gush Tendrils
Owen Tutterwold (icbm) with 4c Gush Tendrils
Chirs Nighbor (icbm) with 4c Gush Tendrils
Mastriano (meandeck)-Gush Tendrils
Hi-Val (meandeck)-GAT
2 other guys that had 4 merchant scrolls and 4 gushes

To recap:
1 Ichorid
7 Scroll and Gush decks

In conclusion: This metagame blows.

EDIT:  info added

To recap:
ICBM and Meandeck took five top 8 spots.

Conclusion: Skilled players on good Vintage teams blow.

Man Vintage sucks! Skilled players can dominate wtih good decks!

If most of the best players opt for the same deck (or within a few cards), doesn't that say something itself?

[Hydra]

I just now got back, which is why I bailed on everyone after round 7.  Fun trip and event, even with the god awful metagame, getting lost in Chicago and the awfullness that is the staff of the Knight's Inn Shay put us in, but was worth the money.  Congrats to the top 8, and hopefully the turnout for SCG Chicago in November will be even better.

[NicolaeAlmighty]

Feinstein can't have all the credit. I 2-0'd Smenenen earlier with the power of Deez Noughts... Ofcourse Hi-Val got me back, but thats besides the point.

[diopter]

Top8:
Jim Erlinger with Ichorid
Tommy Kolowith (icbm) with 4c Gush Tendrils
Owen Tutterwold (icbm) with 4c Gush Tendrils
Chirs Nighbor (icbm) with 4c Gush Tendrils
Mastriano (meandeck)-Gush Tendrils
Hi-Val (meandeck)-GAT
2 other guys that had 4 merchant scrolls and 4 gushes

To recap:
1 Ichorid
7 Scroll and Gush decks

In conclusion: This metagame blows.

EDIT:  info added

To recap:
ICBM and Meandeck took five top 8 spots.

Conclusion: Skilled players on good Vintage teams blow.

Man Vintage sucks! Skilled players can dominate wtih good decks!

If most of the best players opt for the same deck (or within a few cards), doesn't that say something itself?

Four months ago most of the good players were playing Storm decks - the engine was either Gifts or Grim Tutor + Draw7s. but the rest of the deck was almost the same. People bitched that that metagame was healthy and that the DCI was wrong to restrict Gifts and unrestrict Gush to bring us to this new metagame. From the perspective of deck choices amongst top players, there is almost no difference between the pre-Gush and the post-Gush metagame.

[Implacable]

Four months ago most of the good players were playing Storm decks - the engine was either Gifts or Grim Tutor + Draw7s. but the rest of the deck was almost the same. People bitched that that metagame was healthy and that the DCI was wrong to restrict Gifts and unrestrict Gush to bring us to this new metagame. From the perspective of deck choices amongst top players, there is almost no difference between the pre-Gush and the post-Gush metagame.

Long was a Storm deck; that much is indisputable.  Was Gifts a Storm deck?  No.  A lethal Tendrils was simply the most efficient end-product, statistically superior to Belcher + Short or Tinker + Walk.  Furthermore, pre-June, there were a host of other decks putting up Top 8s: Stax, Fish, Bomberman, etc.  Certainly, these decks are all still doing so, but this one of the biggest tournaments of the year, and all the symptoms of the results point towards an unbalanced metagame.

[Razvan]

Top8:
Jim Erlinger with Ichorid
Tommy Kolowith (icbm) with 4c Gush Tendrils
Owen Tutterwold (icbm) with 4c Gush Tendrils
Chirs Nighbor (icbm) with 4c Gush Tendrils
Mastriano (meandeck)-Gush Tendrils
Hi-Val (meandeck)-GAT
2 other guys that had 4 merchant scrolls and 4 gushes

To recap:
1 Ichorid
7 Scroll and Gush decks

In conclusion: This metagame blows.

EDIT:  info added

To recap:
ICBM and Meandeck took five top 8 spots.

Conclusion: Skilled players on good Vintage teams blow.

Man Vintage sucks! Skilled players can dominate wtih good decks!

um... yes, a lot of the same faces in the top-8 doesn't exactly prove anything, but the fact that SEVEN of the EIGHT decks were pretty much identical, as opposed to the usual 2,2,1,1,1,1 (often more archetypes) does.
your conclusion, although correct, is irrelevant (always wanted to say that).
seriously, bring gifts back.

[zeus-online]

No, keep gifts away, but shaft gat (and hopefully flash).

Give me back my metagame! 

/Zeus

[Dante]

Here's out almost every game that the top 8 competitors won played out - get fastbond out, gush 3-6 times in one turn, win.  Sometimes that win was dryad (+ timewalk), sometimes tinker->colossus (+ maybe timewalk), sometimes Empty the Warrens or Tendrils.

The "win" of the deck is the synergy of this:

Ancestral
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Gush
4 Brainstorm
1 Fastbond

[diopter]

Four months ago most of the good players were playing Storm decks - the engine was either Gifts or Grim Tutor + Draw7s. but the rest of the deck was almost the same. People bitched that that metagame was healthy and that the DCI was wrong to restrict Gifts and unrestrict Gush to bring us to this new metagame. From the perspective of deck choices amongst top players, there is almost no difference between the pre-Gush and the post-Gush metagame.

Long was a Storm deck; that much is indisputable.  Was Gifts a Storm deck?  No.  A lethal Tendrils was simply the most efficient end-product, statistically superior to Belcher + Short or Tinker + Walk.  Furthermore, pre-June, there were a host of other decks putting up Top 8s: Stax, Fish, Bomberman, etc.  Certainly, these decks are all still doing so, but this one of the biggest tournaments of the year, and all the symptoms of the results point towards an unbalanced metagame.

This is what Moxlotus wrote:

"If most of the best players opt for the same deck (or within a few cards), doesn't that say something itself?"

Gifts in its final form (Ritual Gifts) and Long were the same deck to within a few cards. The differences were cosmetic at best. These were the decks that nearly everybody who was good was piloting in the dying days of Gifts.

That's what's happening now as well, with Gush.

If you really want to continue this line of argumentation then all I have to say to you is "GAT is a creature deck and Gush Tendrils is a storm deck! They're totally not the same! Remeber Gencon with its diverse top 8! Flash didn't top 8 again, Vintage is still about skill!" with a few 1's and eleventy's and "ones" added in there for good measure.

um... yes, a lot of the same faces in the top-8 doesn't exactly prove anything, but the fact that SEVEN of the EIGHT decks were pretty much identical, as opposed to the usual 2,2,1,1,1,1 (often more archetypes) does.
your conclusion, although correct, is irrelevant (always wanted to say that).
seriously, bring gifts back.

The fact that AT LEAST FIVE of the EIGHT players are incredibly good Vintage players indicates that skill took this top 8. These guys could have probably placed highly with Bomberman or Stax or some other top-tier archetype (of which there are more than three *gasp* how often could you say that about Vintage?). However GAT is the only Yawgmoth's Will deck in the top tier, and historically the best players in this format always gravitate towards the power of Yawgmoth. Why? Because doing broken things twice is fun.

You can bring back Gifts if you want, but the metagame will not get any healthier than it is now.

[Khahan]

The fact that AT LEAST FIVE of the EIGHT players are incredibly good Vintage players indicates that skill took this top 8. These guys could have probably placed highly with Bomberman or Stax or some other top-tier archetype (of which there are more than three *gasp* how often could you say that about Vintage?). However GAT is the only Yawgmoth's Will deck in the top tier, and historically the best players in this format always gravitate towards the power of Yawgmoth. Why? Because doing broken things twice is fun.

The fact that 5 of the top 8 are skilled players proves that skill is king?  But the fact that 5 of the top 8 decks are the same deck doesn't prove that 1 deck is unbalanced?   

And the other side of the argument gets the same thing thrown in their face.  You cannot argue 1 without accepting the possibility of the other because of the path you take to arrive at your conclusion is the same.

However, the only thing that was proven was that 5 of the top 8 players at Indy were ICBM'ers. You can draw your own conclusions, but that is the only real fact that is proven.   Quite simply, its 1 sinlge event and that is too small of a sample size to draw or prove the conclusions you guys are arguing about.