[Article] Beating Gush in Vintage

[Jank Golem]

I would be grateful to hear any comments or discussion here about my article Beating Gush in Vintage, a look at how to combat one of the most powerful cards in the format.

[And11]

First of all, thanks for writing the article and linking us (who looks over the boards of mtgsalvation? ). I enjoyed it a lot.

Playing stuff like Disrupt or the black discard jank you mentioned doesn't seem right if you wanna beat Gush. Moon effects on the other hand are just nuts in this metagame. It must be answered by GAT, it's a Pithing Needle (allthough an expensive one) against Ichorid and Flash will most likely fetch Tropical or Underground Sea in the early game and will there for be left with only a couple of Islands, Lotus and Sapphire for blue mana. My test sessions vs. Stax show that he isn't irrelevant here either.

With that said, I still think you should just play GAT and practice the mirror a lot instead. Play something main deck that gives you the edge and learn to play your threats/counters right. I'm considering writing a tournament report from the past Saturday where I managed to win the Denmark Nationals Vintage Trial with GAT, having played a total of 6 mirrors during the 6 round swiss followed by top 8 knockout.

Nice topic, I hope people will contribute with something relevant

/Andreas, Denmark

[ErkBek]

First off, thanks for writing this article, I'm glad to see that someone tried to tackle the issue. There are a couple of things though that I'd like to add:

On Wastelands: These are great vs. Gush decks, really they are. It took me a while to put it together but often times you can put your opponent in very rough situations with them. One of my favorite plays vs. Gush decks is to Waste on their EOT when they are holding 6 or more cards, because if they Gush they'll be down 2 land drops and will have to discard 2 cards. Sometimes just wasting a land on turn 2 and having them Gush in response is a good play too since they'll be going into turn 3 with 0 lands on the board. If your waste does get through they only run 18-20 mana sources so taking out the most on-color one is going to be painful. Here's how wastes usually play out for me:

On the play: me: Land, threat
Them: Land, something
Me: Waste and activate

On the draw: them: Land, something
me: land, something
them: land something
me: Something, Waste, go
them: GAT often times is between a rock and a hard place here. If they play Gush and can't put a basic island into play then they'll end turn 3 with 0 lands in play. So often times if they don't have a third land drop you can set them up nicely for an EOT waste.

On Moon Effects: Blood Moon is Duress-able which is sometimes annoying vs. 4 duress decks. Magus of the Moon is killed by Fire/Ice, which is found in GWarrens. They're a strong hosers if they hit and stay on the table, but you better be doing something to keep them there or further your gameplan. I was talking with moxlotus the other night and here's what he said about a single maindeck F/I when playing scrolls

It's like they 10 maindeck burn spells since every tutor finds it

On GWarrens vs. GAT: In your article you seemed to have a bias towards GAT, I felt like I was reading something that Menendian wrote for minute there. It seemed that you wanted to say GAT is strategically superior since it can play the aggro control role while Gwarrens couldn't. Conversely, I think that GWarrens is better than GAT because while it can't normally play an aggro control role (excluding Tinker hands) it plays the combo role and the control much better. The reason it does this so well is Gwarrens can just choose to not do anything except prevent the opponent from winning on turns 1-4 and then combo out. Like Gifts used to do, if it didn't have the right combo pieces to work with it can just tinker up the 11/11 man to go the distance too. GWarrens not just plays more disruption (extra Blast, F/I, and Bounce spell) it plays out in such a way that it can effectively use those spells more smoothly.

On Encroach: Have you tried using this card before? It only seems useful when on the play since on the draw they will likely either have 3 lands total or BS to hide lands.

I don't mean to hijack your thread, I just had a lot to say. Thanks again for the article.

[Grand Inquisitor]

I'll admit I only browsed through this article, but I didn't see you mention sphere of resistance.  This is one of the easiest ways to make Gush.dec's life difficult.

On Wastelands: These are great vs. Gush decks, really they are. It took me a while to put it together but often times you can put your opponent in very rough situations with them.

Strong agreement here.  Wastelands in these matchups are the classic case where if you test them and don't know what you're doing, it seems like they're weak since they can dodge them by Gushing in response.  Timing is everything here and once you get the hang of it you can really push these other decks into a corner or dovetail these effects with other lock components.

[Anusien]

You claim that because GAT can just drop a Dryad and beat down for a few turns, they're more vulnerable to removal than Gush Storm, while this isn't true.  Yes, Dryad is easier to kill than, say, Meloku, it doesn't have certain vulnerabilities the way Empty the Warrens does.  More to the point, you've got the advantage backwards.  Gush Storm can't just play a Dryad and put pressure on.  Specifically because GAT has this plan, they don't have to go all-in on a win condition, which means that GAT doesn't rely on a single Dryad to win.  In other words, GAT is less vulnerable to removal, not more.

[Aardshark]

Nice article.  Not exactly groundbreaking, but a lucid overview and analysis of available options.

Two cards you didn't mention that I've been testing (and playing) are Chains of Mephistophles and Extirpate. 

Chains of Mephistophles has proved to be quite strong against Gush, as it shuts down their ability to chain gushes.  True, they can discard their returned lands, but GAT at least can't really afford to lose its lands either because its so mana-tight.  Also, such a high percentage of GAT's cards are draw spells that a resolved Chains really makes their deck worse.  I haven't tested Chains against Gush Warrans yet.  In theory it might not be as strong because they play fewer draw spells, but on the other hand chains hits their "big play" of chaining gushes much harder.

The main drawback of Chains of Mephistophles is its symetry.  I was playing it in the board of a deck with 4 brainstorms (the Catalan Mindwist deck) and siding out my brainstorms, which made my deck so much less consistant it wasn't worth it.  But in a deck without/less reliant on brainstorms, Chains might be an excellent option.

I've just started testing Extirpate (a card that I've never been a fan of in general).  Like Chains, Extirpating Gush shuts the deck's engine down cold.  The downside is that extirpate doesn't stop the first gush.  If their scrolled-for ancestral recall also resolved, that puts them +4 cards on you if Extirpate didn't hit a card in hand also -- not exactly a recipe for success.  In other words, extirpate will not do the job alone.  However, when combined with other cards (coutermagic, duress, wasteland on dual land, smother on dryad), Extirpate seems like it could be strong.

Does anyone else have experience (either playing with or against) either of these two cards versus Gush?

[Phele]

You hit it on the nail: Chains and Extirpate are pretty worthwile tools against GAT (and probably against Gush decks of other kind as well), when you play them in the sideboard of a deck that is already filled up in the maindeck with Duress, Stifle, Wasteland and alternate card-"draw"-engines in form of Dark Confidant like for example Dark Illusions does. GAT can for sure still win, as it is a very flexible deck, but this comination in many cases is enough. Attacking its draw engine and its mana base is imo the best way to fight GAT.

[Outlaw]

I wasnt able to browse through the article but I believe the best way to combat gush is simple.


Fight the Merchant scrolls? Its much easier to hit the scrolls and set a GAT player off the deep end (they never see it coming).  When I played GAT I was running 3 Spell snares because I figured the stuff that beats GAT all costs 2 realistically (with exclusion to spell snare).  In the gat mirror i was snaring the be-jesus out of Merchant scrolls and setting my opponent off everything he was trying to set up.  I'll quickly sum up what I believe.  I think the best way to battle Gush (since every deck that runs gush runs 4 scrolls) is to definitely combat the scrolls.

[Jank Golem]

Thanks for all the responses, I will try to cover everything but I might miss some stuff.

Playing stuff like Disrupt or the black discard jank you mentioned doesn't seem right if you wanna beat Gush. Moon effects on the other hand are just nuts in this metagame. It must be answered by GAT, it's a Pithing Needle (allthough an expensive one) against Ichorid and Flash will most likely fetch Tropical or Underground Sea in the early game and will there for be left with only a couple of Islands, Lotus and Sapphire for blue mana. My test sessions vs. Stax show that he isn't irrelevant here either.

Blood Moon and Magus of the Moon are great answers to Gush decks, but not all decks are the right colors or have the mana base to support running them. Disrupt is a strong answer in the GAT mirror, I believe Hi-Val's list that T8'ed at SCG ran several. Encroach was more directed at mana denial Fish builds which don't run red or are unable to support Blood Moon.

First off, thanks for writing this article, I'm glad to see that someone tried to tackle the issue. There are a couple of things though that I'd like to add:

On Wastelands: These are great vs. Gush decks, really they are. It took me a while to put it together but often times you can put your opponent in very rough situations with them. One of my favorite plays vs. Gush decks is to Waste on their EOT when they are holding 6 or more cards, because if they Gush they'll be down 2 land drops and will have to discard 2 cards. Sometimes just wasting a land on turn 2 and having them Gush in response is a good play too since they'll be going into turn 3 with 0 lands on the board. If your waste does get through they only run 18-20 mana sources so taking out the most on-color one is going to be painful. Here's how wastes usually play out for me:

On the play: me: Land, threat
Them: Land, something
Me: Waste and activate

On the draw: them: Land, something
me: land, something
them: land something
me: Something, Waste, go
them: GAT often times is between a rock and a hard place here. If they play Gush and can't put a basic island into play then they'll end turn 3 with 0 lands in play. So often times if they don't have a third land drop you can set them up nicely for an EOT waste.

I don't deny Wasteland is a strong answer to Gush decks, I was trying to show that Gush decks can afford to play a smaller amount of basics compared to past Gifts decks which had no other way besides Fetch->Island to deal with them. I do think Wasteland has become weaker in decks like Fish however simply because it does not have a good chance as it used to of hitting a land. That also combined with the increased speed of the format and Fish decks spreading out to several colors. I would still play Wasteland in Fish in Stax, I just don't think it is what it used to be.

They're a strong hosers if they hit and stay on the table, but you better be doing something to keep them there or further your gameplan.

Totally agree, I talked about this briefly at the end of the article. You cannot just sit back and expect your hate to go the distance, you need a plan of your own and a way to provide pressure.

On GWarrens vs. GAT: In your article you seemed to have a bias towards GAT, I felt like I was reading something that Menendian wrote for minute there. It seemed that you wanted to say GAT is strategically superior since it can play the aggro control role while Gwarrens couldn't. Conversely, I think that GWarrens is better than GAT because while it can't normally play an aggro control role (excluding Tinker hands) it plays the combo role and the control much better. The reason it does this so well is Gwarrens can just choose to not do anything except prevent the opponent from winning on turns 1-4 and then combo out. Like Gifts used to do, if it didn't have the right combo pieces to work with it can just tinker up the 11/11 man to go the distance too. GWarrens not just plays more disruption (extra Blast, F/I, and Bounce spell) it plays out in such a way that it can effectively use those spells more smoothly.

I wasn't trying by any means trying to imply that either Gush Storm or GAT are superior to the other. I was trying to highlight the difference between GAT and Gush Storm and GAT's extra game role. Gush Storm obviously has its advantages as well; as you mentioned it can run more draw and counters.

I'll admit I only browsed through this article, but I didn't see you mention sphere of resistance.  This is one of the easiest ways to make Gush.dec's life difficult.

Sphere is obviously another great card. I was trying to focus more on cards that are underplayed right now, although I made an exception for Blood Moon as well as a few others.

You claim that because GAT can just drop a Dryad and beat down for a few turns, they're more vulnerable to removal than Gush Storm, while this isn't true.  Yes, Dryad is easier to kill than, say, Meloku, it doesn't have certain vulnerabilities the way Empty the Warrens does.  More to the point, you've got the advantage backwards.  Gush Storm can't just play a Dryad and put pressure on.  Specifically because GAT has this plan, they don't have to go all-in on a win condition, which means that GAT doesn't rely on a single Dryad to win.  In other words, GAT is less vulnerable to removal, not more.

Let me try to clarify, GAT runs more creatures and those creatures are more open to current hate then Gush Storm's win conditions, therefore creature hate is more likely to affect GAT's play. What GAT gains from this is the ability to play an aggro control role. When Gush Storm is casting it's win conditions it does usually does so after it has comboed off, not for an aggro control role. By this time Gush Storm has already won the game, so attacking the win conditions is just going to get your hate countered. GAT on the other hand uses it's creatures in the aggro control role when the game has not been won. This gives the opponent an opportunity to attack Dryad, and in some cases to succeed.

Nice article.  Not exactly groundbreaking, but a lucid overview and analysis of available options.

Two cards you didn't mention that I've been testing (and playing) are Chains of Mephistophles and Extirpate. 

Chains of Mephistophles has proved to be quite strong against Gush, as it shuts down their ability to chain gushes.  True, they can discard their returned lands, but GAT at least can't really afford to lose its lands either because its so mana-tight.  Also, such a high percentage of GAT's cards are draw spells that a resolved Chains really makes their deck worse.  I haven't tested Chains against Gush Warrans yet.  In theory it might not be as strong because they play fewer draw spells, but on the other hand chains hits their "big play" of chaining gushes much harder.

The main drawback of Chains of Mephistophles is its symetry.  I was playing it in the board of a deck with 4 brainstorms (the Catalan Mindwist deck) and siding out my brainstorms, which made my deck so much less consistant it wasn't worth it.  But in a deck without/less reliant on brainstorms, Chains might be an excellent option.

I've just started testing Extirpate (a card that I've never been a fan of in general).  Like Chains, Extirpating Gush shuts the deck's engine down cold.  The downside is that extirpate doesn't stop the first gush.  If their scrolled-for ancestral recall also resolved, that puts them +4 cards on you if Extirpate didn't hit a card in hand also -- not exactly a recipe for success.  In other words, extirpate will not do the job alone.  However, when combined with other cards (coutermagic, duress, wasteland on dual land, smother on dryad), Extirpate seems like it could be strong.

Does anyone else have experience (either playing with or against) either of these two cards versus Gush?

I considered both Chains and Extirpate, but in the end decided not to include them. Chains doesn't stop Gush deck's ability to draw cards very effectively. They can still discard and continue filtering, discarding useless spells. They don't play a totally Control role and don't always need card advantage to win, along with the card being symmetrical hurting you as well.

The problem with Extirpate is it only creates a possible future advantage, unless they are holding the card you targeted. The other issue with Extirpate is you cannot stop Gush decks in the critical early game when they are casting Ancestral or their first Gush. Once Gush deck's draw engine gets online they become much more difficult to stop, so you should be trying to attack early whenever possible. Both of these cards are still playable, I just don't think they are the best solutions.

[meadbert]

Uba Stax is the best way to beat Gush.

Chalice@1, Uba Mask, Sphere of Resistance, Trinisphere and Crucible are all a beating.
Even Smokestack is pretty good.

[Smmenen]

FYI: The SB in my vintage champs deck is wrong.  That was the list from Thursday Gencon.  My Champs list had an Island in the SB and a slightly different configuration.   I just scanned it, but it looks like a nicely written article.    Well done.

Uba Stax is the best way to beat Gush.


Even Smokestack is pretty good.

Frankly, only if the Gush player is incompetent.  I don't think anyone on ICBM, Reflection or Meandeck would disagree with me.   

On GWarrens vs. GAT: In your article you seemed to have a bias towards GAT, I felt like I was reading something that Menendian wrote for minute there. It seemed that you wanted to say GAT is strategically superior since it can play the aggro control role while Gwarrens couldn't. Conversely, I think that GWarrens is better than GAT because while it can't normally play an aggro control role (excluding Tinker hands) it plays the combo role and the control much better.
The reason it does this so well is Gwarrens can just choose to not do anything except prevent the opponent from winning on turns 1-4 and then combo out. Like

Kobefan: Note that in my most recent article I specifically explained that Tinker for Colossus, ETW, and Meloku are all tactically superior to Dryads.    The former trump the latter.  That doesn't mean that they are overall better, but I woudn't say that my position is as extreme as you say...

I will be changing my approach to GAT to adjust.

Steve

[Liam-K]

If you're playing a deck that doesn't mind running it, Mystic Remora can be pretty hilarious against GAT.

[andrewpate]

@Jank Golem
I agree with you that Extirpate is suboptimal when it can't stop their early card draw, and I should add that it has a similar skill element to Cabal Therapy only with less expected returns.  That said, I think that can be very strong when used in combination with other disruption.  For example, when GAT Merchant Scrolls for Gush early, taking the turn back and going Cabal Therapy on Gush, Extirpate Gush can lower their deck's quality enough that the "theoretical" advantage is of real significance.  That said, I would not run Extirpate unless I already had plenty of preemptive discard (for example, in Forino's Suicide list).

@Moons
I agree with Eric in that you really need back up for them to be good.  I think that the R/B TMWA build with lots of creature removal and discard is probably the only deck in which I would currently run them.  Leaning on the Moon to punish the draw engine and using discard to attack means of destroying the Moon (with Snuff Out, etc. to deal with threats) seems like a fairly decent plan if you know the matchup well enough, but I would have to test it a lot more before I'd brave a tournament with it.

[meadbert]

FYI: The SB in my vintage champs deck is wrong.  That was the list from Thursday Gencon.  My Champs list had an Island in the SB and a slightly different configuration.   I just scanned it, but it looks like a nicely written article.    Well done.

Uba Stax is the best way to beat Gush.


Even Smokestack is pretty good.

Frankly, only if the Gush player is incompetent.  I don't think anyone on ICBM, Reflection or Meandeck would disagree with me.   

I would like to become competent.  How do I beat Uba Stax?

[Jank Golem]

FYI: The SB in my vintage champs deck is wrong.  That was the list from Thursday Gencon.  My Champs list had an Island in the SB and a slightly different configuration.

Sorry about the misquoted list, I was using the one SCG had in their database.

I wasnt able to browse through the article but I believe the best way to combat gush is simple.


Fight the Merchant scrolls? Its much easier to hit the scrolls and set a GAT player off the deep end (they never see it coming).  When I played GAT I was running 3 Spell snares because I figured the stuff that beats GAT all costs 2 realistically (with exclusion to spell snare).  In the gat mirror i was snaring the be-jesus out of Merchant scrolls and setting my opponent off everything he was trying to set up.  I'll quickly sum up what I believe.  I think the best way to battle Gush (since every deck that runs gush runs 4 scrolls) is to definitely combat the scrolls.

Fighting Merchant Scroll with Spell Snare is a good plan it targets their early game draw, Scroll->Ancestral as well as Dryad. Even without Spell Snare it can be correct to counter Scroll, as opposed to the card it finds. Letting Scroll resolve gives them a chance to draw Duress or counterspells in their next turn to back up the tutored for spell. Countering Scroll at the very least you have eliminates a business spell. Of course exceptions to this exist, in particular the early game tutor for Ancestral. If you counter scroll there they can draw another and tutor for Ancestral anyway.

If you're playing a deck that doesn't mind running it, Mystic Remora can be pretty hilarious against GAT.

Mystic Remora's upkeep cost is rather prohibitive, but if you can support that it is playable. If the opponent chooses to play spells into Remora you will virtually always be drawing the same number of cards because of the tutor chains Gush decks run. Not playing spells into it is not an attractive option either, especially if the Remora player can manage to apply some other pressure.

[defector]

I don't want to be negative, but there may not be any beating Gush.dec in Vintage. The best solution that I can think of is a strong mana denial strategy. I think that Null Rod probably has to make a comeback. Null Rod combined with strip effects would be the beginning in my opinion, but there needs to be some kind of a finisher, shutting off their mana after they let a dryad loose isn't going to do it. The Oshawa stompy disruption package might be effective here. Stax is great except for early dryads. Attacking Scroll is easier said than done, the Gush player has lots of counters and Mis Direction, plus they run scroll as a four of and probably only need to resolve one or two, this lets them set up the counter battle. There's a social dynamic here as well, most of our best players are going to be running GAT due to its power, history and fun factor, this makes the job of dealing with it all the harder. Also, if we build Hategush.dec, how do we survive the rest of the field, a discard effect that targets land in hand is a pretty dead draw against Belcher. I don't know, I call this an uphill fight at best.
defector

[Moxlotus]

I am very disappointed by the state of Vintage if people think that Gush decks are nigh-unbeatable to decks besides hate decks.  People are attacking the wrong perceived weaknes sof GAT.  Mana denial does not work well on Gush.dec.  There is a reason Stax did not make top8 at Indy.  If mana denial was so good against GAT, then it would still win a good amount even agaisnt the best players.  Gat's first weakness is that it uses its life total.  The same way that Pyrostatic Pillar was a pain for Wraith-GrimLong, damage is a pain to GAT.  Has nobody thought to throw Ankh of Mishra into a deck?  It is a freaking golf club to the nuts of Gush.dec.  They can spend all the time in the world dicking around until t hey can remove it while I beat their face in with dudes.  Black Vise is also pretty funny.

GAT's second weakness is that it needs to find a dryad, and then have gas to make it gro.  Notice that Dryad is a creature.  And creatures can only block one other creature.  And Dryad doesn't have flying or shadow or any kind of evasion.  Yes, there is a deck I'm referring to and no I'm not gonna tell you what it is exactly.  I will say it has won power before and lists are on TMD.  I just couldn't stand it anymore the "GAT and Gush can only be beat by hate decks" any longer.

To recap: Gush decks are very beatable without building pure hate decks.  Mana is not their weakness--their life total and Dryad are their weaknesses.

[defector]

I haven't thought to approach Gush.dec from that angle. Your ideas would be more helpful if you contributed more than "There is an answer, but I'm not telling", also I am very skeptical about Black Vise as an answer to Gush.dec. If you mean Vise as a main deck solution, I can't imagine that being effective as it's dead against a lot of the field. I like the idea of Ankh of Mishra, that might go into my stax list now. If you are so sure that Dryad is a weakness could you provide us with some arguments and card choices?
defector

[Moxlotus]

I haven't thought to approach Gush.dec from that angle. Your ideas would be more helpful if you contributed more than "There is an answer, but I'm not telling", also I am very skeptical about Black Vise as an answer to Gush.dec. If you mean Vise as a main deck solution, I can't imagine that being effective as it's dead against a lot of the field. I like the idea of Ankh of Mishra, that might go into my stax list now. If you are so sure that Dryad is a weakness could you provide us with some arguments and card choices?
defector

Well, I'm not going to just give out the exact decklist that my team has been working on and may play at some point in the near future, but I gave some hints.  Dryad is definitely one of the deck's weaknesses though.  Goblins made top 2 at Waterbury--it wasn't just lucky--it was (is) good.  Dryad can only block one thing at a time.  And if your deck has flyers or shadow creatures you just sail right by it.  And unless they can find their Cunning Wish, you can just sit back and chump while the rest of your team swings each turn.  If you overwhelm them with attackers, and damage such as Vise and Ankh and Pillar acting as backup, they won't be able to stop your army and won't be able to combo you out.  Damage hurts GAT, just as much if not more than damage hurt Wraith-Grim Long.  Hell, psychogenic Probe is even pretty good against GAT.  Take any combination of those permanent damage sources and GAT will be taking damage for any card it plays--or doesn't play.

Now with new cards like Thoughtseize and Teeg there are even more options on how to beat GAT.  Nabbing a Dryad with Thoughtseize is brutal because they have to spend all of the card draw in their hand trying to find another Dryad or Will.  And if they find another dryad, well, they have just used up a bunch of their card draw so he's puny.

Bounce also is a huge pain to GAT.  Becker beat 3 GAT decks at the Arsenal because hsi deck had waterfront bouncers maindeck and echoing truth in the side. 

There are a lot of ways to beat GAT and none of them involve attacking the mana.

[Nydaeli]

Here's the main question in my mind: Is the metagame warped to a sufficient degree to justify running a hate deck?  I've been experimenting with something similar to what Moxlotus is describing (R/W with MoonMagus, Vise, Ankh, and Pillar) and while it has a very favorable GAT matchup, I'm not sure if this is a worthwhile gamble against other decks where these tools might behave more symmetrically.  SCG Indy does indicate that GAT is absolutely everywhere, though.

[Moxlotus]

Here's the main question in my mind: Is the metagame warped to a sufficient degree to justify running a hate deck?  I've been experimenting with something similar to what Moxlotus is describing (R/W with MoonMagus, Vise, Ankh, and Pillar) and while it has a very favorable GAT matchup, I'm not sure if this is a worthwhile gamble against other decks where these tools might behave more symmetrically.  SCG Indy does indicate that GAT is absolutely everywhere, though.

Hate deck is such a loaded term.  There can be all kinds of "hate" decks that are actually good against most of the field.  Fish, in particular URBana, can be classified as a hate deck.  But it can have good matches besides the ones it has metagamed for most.  Pure hate decks will lose in the long run because they wil lget paired agianst something they don't hate.  "Hate" success is determined by its ability to beat other decks besides the most popular.  Ankh Sligh back in the day could have been considered a hate deck--but the deck could burn through things that weren't Keeper so I wouldn't call it a hate deck.

[Aardshark]

Yes, there is a deck I'm referring to and no I'm not gonna tell you what it is exactly.  I will say it has won power before and lists are on TMD. 

Did ETW Belcher ever win power?

[defector]

Ok, it looks like you guys are on to something. Best of luck with the design! Pyrostatic Pillar was great even against Dragon, so maybe there is something here. I agree about Ankh Sligh, that was a great aggro-control deck with more silver bullet style answers than really hate, in my opinion. Well good luck with the design!
defector

[Liam-K]

If you're playing a deck that doesn't mind running it, Mystic Remora can be pretty hilarious against GAT.

Mystic Remora's upkeep cost is rather prohibitive, but if you can support that it is playable. If the opponent chooses to play spells into Remora you will virtually always be drawing the same number of cards because of the tutor chains Gush decks run. Not playing spells into it is not an attractive option either, especially if the Remora player can manage to apply some other pressure.

I'd almost say the opposite.  It costs 1 mana and 1 mana on your second upkeep.  That's cheap enough you can do other stuff at the same time for 2 turns, while your opponent either feeds you cards or time walks himself.

[Jank Golem]

I am very disappointed by the state of Vintage if people think that Gush decks are nigh-unbeatable to decks besides hate decks.  People are attacking the wrong perceived weaknes sof GAT.  Mana denial does not work well on Gush.dec.  There is a reason Stax did not make top8 at Indy.  If mana denial was so good against GAT, then it would still win a good amount even agaisnt the best players.  Gat's first weakness is that it uses its life total.  The same way that Pyrostatic Pillar was a pain for Wraith-GrimLong, damage is a pain to GAT.  Has nobody thought to throw Ankh of Mishra into a deck?  It is a freaking golf club to the nuts of Gush.dec.  They can spend all the time in the world dicking around until t hey can remove it while I beat their face in with dudes.  Black Vise is also pretty funny.

GAT's second weakness is that it needs to find a dryad, and then have gas to make it gro.  Notice that Dryad is a creature.  And creatures can only block one other creature.  And Dryad doesn't have flying or shadow or any kind of evasion.  Yes, there is a deck I'm referring to and no I'm not gonna tell you what it is exactly.  I will say it has won power before and lists are on TMD.  I just couldn't stand it anymore the "GAT and Gush can only be beat by hate decks" any longer.

To recap: Gush decks are very beatable without building pure hate decks.  Mana is not their weakness--their life total and Dryad are their weaknesses.

There are several issues I see with attacking the mana base or life total of GAT. The only deck that can put pressure on the opponents life total is something like Goblins or an aggressive Fish deck. It does not make sense for a deck broken cards and a strong game plan to add Ankh of Mishra or Black Vise to try to attack the life total of Gush decks. The only decks that can do this are ones that are fully dedicated to the plan of dealing damage. The majority of Vintage is made up with broken cards and strong game plans that cannot afford to accomadate the huge number of slots for this plan. Yes attacking Gush's life total could work for Goblins or maybe even an significantly revamped Fish deck; but not for the majority of decks in Vintage.

As for attacking creatures in Gush decks, I agree it does stop their aggro control plan. It is still incredibly easy for them not go aggro and just go broken with draw spells. Then Gush can take their time getting Dryad or Tog on the board and winning with multiple counters in hand. Another option that has been explored in Gush decks is running Empty the Warrens, circumventing most creature hate strategies. This is strong because currently the only ETW hate that is really seeing play is a singleton Echoing Truth to tutor for. To summarize, it takes a significantly more removal spells to combat Gush's creatures then it does to combat their mana base or draw engine. Gush decks cannot function without their mana base or draw engine while they can still work without their creatures.

If you're playing a deck that doesn't mind running it, Mystic Remora can be pretty hilarious against GAT.

Mystic Remora's upkeep cost is rather prohibitive, but if you can support that it is playable. If the opponent chooses to play spells into Remora you will virtually always be drawing the same number of cards because of the tutor chains Gush decks run. Not playing spells into it is not an attractive option either, especially if the Remora player can manage to apply some other pressure.

I'd almost say the opposite.  It costs 1 mana and 1 mana on your second upkeep.  That's cheap enough you can do other stuff at the same time for 2 turns, while your opponent either feeds you cards or time walks himself.

The reason it is prohibitive is because if you are paying the upkeep you can never get above one mana yourself. It does work well as a stall tactic if you run lots of artifact mana or have something significant to cast with one mana, but I don't see it working well outside of that.

[doylehancock]

very good article

they need to restrict something.  Maybe its scroll, scroll made Gifts amazing and now Gush

[Madpeep]

I am very disappointed by the state of Vintage if people think that Gush decks are nigh-unbeatable to decks besides hate decks.  People are attacking the wrong perceived weaknes sof GAT.  Mana denial does not work well on Gush.dec.  There is a reason Stax did not make top8 at Indy.  If mana denial was so good against GAT, then it would still win a good amount even agaisnt the best players. 

Ray Robillard and Steve Conway both made top 8 at Indy vintage Champs with Stax builds.....

[Dante]

I am very disappointed by the state of Vintage if people think that Gush decks are nigh-unbeatable to decks besides hate decks.  People are attacking the wrong perceived weaknes sof GAT.  Mana denial does not work well on Gush.dec.  There is a reason Stax did not make top8 at Indy.  If mana denial was so good against GAT, then it would still win a good amount even agaisnt the best players. 

Ray Robillard and Steve Conway both made top 8 at Indy vintage Champs with Stax builds.....

He's talking about the SCG Indy that was post-Gencon.