Kowal Slaver

[Kowal]

To be honest there is one card that does 'hose' control slaver:  That card is Dark Ritual.

Personally, I think there isn't much of a reason to play Tendrils because Flash does everything Tendrils decks want to only for less mana and can fit in 12 disruption spells.  Is there any real reason to play storm when you could play Flash?

With the worst matchup CS had missing, I thought I would try my hand at updating Control Slaver for the new environment.  I was very pleased with the results.

With the biggest decks right now running between 0 and 2 basics, and requiring two islands to get out of the gates, it can be very tempting to run a deck with red to support Magus of the Moon.  Numerous players have fallen in to the trap of playing this style of a deck to essentially lucksack wins from their opponent.



Don't be fooled by evil fish men.  When you walk down the road of maindecking hate cards, you're hoping to do the following series:

1) Lucksack the hate card in to your hand.
2) Lucksack the hate card in to play.
3) Lucksack your opponent out of ways to answer it.
4) Lucksack your opponent in to being crippled by it.

Making all four of these true is critical to make it worth it, and Magus will not get there.  In contrast, here's what your plan is if you just run good cards instead of hate slots:

1) Cast good cards.
2) Win.

With that in mind, I decided to go a radically different direction from where most obstinate Control Slaver die hards were going, and designed this build:


Kowal Slaver, 2007

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Future Sight
1 Echoing Truth

4 Duress
3 Night's Whisper
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor

1 Goblin Welder

1 Platinum Angel
1 Mindslaver
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald

1 Library of Alexandria
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
5 Island


My argument in designing this deck was that I could run random hate cards like Red Elemental Blast or Disrupt and hope to lucksack good plays against GAT and the field.  However, that backfires about as often as it actually functions, and is on the whole less effective than just trying to run the best slots I can and play my deck the way it's supposed to be played.

One of the most important design points in generating this build was including four Duress.  I honestly do not feel that any deck in type one is correctly built if it's not running four Duress.  This is especially true right now since almost every deck is trying to abuse Merchant Scroll as the busted tutor it is.

In terms of questionable card choices:

1) Future Sight
I honestly feel this card has earned a very critical role in the deck as it stands.  One of the things that every control deck in type one wants to do and CS has always done so very well is to feign weakness by intentionally losing a counterwar, and then playing something much more useful like Tinker or Yawgmoth's Will.  Future Sight fulfills this same role and gives me a third devastating, game ending spell.  Ironically, as the format gets faster Future Sight becomes better because it's considerably less likely I'll run it in to Mana Drain.

2) 1 Goblin Welder
Seeing Goblin Welder can actually mean you lose, since you really need to keep the quality of your cards as high as possible right now.  There's very little leeway in terms of being able to draw poorly and get away with it, and that means minimizing the number of opening hands with a Welder in them as well as minimizing the amount of times you rip it or see it off a Brainstorm/Whisper.  While I'd love to cut the fucker altogether, I find his ability is necessary to tutor for from time to time.  This isn't quite so true with Future Sight in the deck, and I may revisit this and clip him from the list entirely.

3) Platinum Angel
Platts has never been better.  Having Platts in my deck greatly improves my matchups against Flash and Ichorid, while simultaneously giving me another out for when GushStorm blows its load on Meloku or Empty the Warrens, or even occasionally locking GAT players out because they waste their Wish on a cute trick like Oxidizing a mox or Red Blasting my thirsts.  Her slow speed is easily ignorable given the benefits of having her in the maindeck right now, and in the event of a matchup I want a better clock I sideboard Darksteel Colossus.


I have found this deck to be wildly successful against GAT and GushStorm, while maintaining a healthy amount of chances to keep up with Flash and Ichorid.  The lattermost is an even better matchup with a maindeck Tormod's or Yixlid Jailer, which may take Goblin Welder's slot if I determine that he's unnecessary in my maindeck.


In terms of sideboard construction, I think the following slots are absolutely essential:

1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Goblin Welder
4 1cc Disruptions (I like 2 REB and 2 Disrupt)

The first is pretty obvious for when Platts isn't a good enough clock.  I like having another Welder on hand for matchups where that effect is actually very relevant, such as Stax or the CS mirror.  The 4 disruption slots I've found are stronger answers to Flash than bulky hate slots like Leyline.

Further slots are entirely dependant on what is prevelant in your metagame and what decks you fear the most.  I tend to skimp on Ichorid hate, for example, since I'm amongst the only retards who ever play Ichorid in New England anyway.

I'm curious to hear all your thoughts on the build.  I consider it to be a very strong and competitive list for this environment, in spite of the fact it breaks a couple major historical CS rules.

[Dante]

Looks nice.

seeing your sb from Hadley:

sb:
1 welder
1 trike
1 darksteel
2 fire/ice
2 RnR
3 Reb
2 Disrupt
4 LotV

I notice you'll want to cast multiple red spells vs stax, but only have 1 Volcanic.  I'm not sure 4 or 5 basics will make a difference, so wouldn't adding a 2nd Volc make sense?  What are you siding out for the 3 reb + 2 disrupt package? (assuming card disadvantage tutors +??)

[zeus-online]

While your deck might be good, i'd hardly call it slaver....I know we are not supposed to discuss deck names, but your deck mostly just resembles keeper - Although you still have the combo-control gameplan.

That said, i like the addition of duress and night's whisper has worked great in the past, so i'd assume that it's still a beast.

You seem to have cut most of the expensive bombs, but you've added future sight which makes me wonder if more welders, gifts ungiven or some other restricted bomb like yawgmoth's bargain might be better?

/Zeus

[piZZero]

Hi Kowal!

I've been working lately in a deck that looks extremely similar to yours.

Here there's the list i'm testing:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Night Whispers
2 Thirst for Knowledge

1 Goblin Welder
1 Mindslaver
1 Platinum Angel
1 Triskelion

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
4 Duress

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Fire / Ice
1 Rushing River
1 Echoing Truth

1 Future Sight

5 Mox
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring

3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Snow Covered Island
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Library of Alexandria

I based the drawing engine of the deck on Dark Confidant + Night Whispers. This has allowed me to cut down to 2 the number of Thirst for Knowledge, which i consider it good but not totally broken. I think it's a good decission as i only run 1 Welder and 3 finishing Artifacts (Mindslaver, Platinum & Triskelion).

I included in the list a Fire / Ice. I find this card really powerfull in today's metagame. It kills confidants, mindcensors, etc... and it's able to stop a dedly Dryad 1 turn with the Ice, working like a Time Walk in some situations.

I also find that cutting welders to 1 improves the quality of hands. If you need it, you tutor for it. Basing your game plan around Welder might lead you into bad plays, leaving you vulnerable to many decks. I've found that a opening hand with Fetch to Volcanic and into Welder, is a terrible play.

Slaver isn't storm dependant, and this allows you to cut Chain of Vapor / Hurkyl's / Rebuild for a more flexible bouncers such as Rushing River & Echoing Truth.

I'll keep you informed about the deck progress in the upcoming testing.

/Cheers

[Grand Inquisitor]

i'd hardly call it slaver

I think this is really pertinent here.  How many times did you tinker for Slaver vs. Platinum or Black Lotus?  Did you ever wish you had DSC or Titan main?  I know if I'm playing GAT or something Gush<>Scroll based, that I'm jumping for joy whenever an opponent tinkers out a Platz.  In a format where everyone has effectively 8-9 bounce spells I just don't see the point.  It reminds me of that sig where someone forces tinker and the other guys like, "fooled you, I don't have any targets" - except that's your decks strategy.

Thirst for Knowledge, which i consider it good but not totally broken

I consider TFK complete crap, and if I know this list only runs a single welder I can completely disregard the card.  In our match, besides me drawing land, what really did the heavy lifting was:

4 Duress
3 Night's Whisper

Those cards were awesome, and I hated when you got them in multiples. 

1 Future Sight

This card was also pretty amazing.  Imagine if you had Gush and Fastbond instead of those crappy artifacts and TFK.

I will admit, however, that mana drain was surprisingly good once surrounded with duress and disrupt/reb.  Setting it up takes considerable skill in this meta, but it's potent when it works.

[Zherbus]

Kowal, you know me; I'd try Skeletal Scrying in place of the Night's Whisper, especially given your acceleration and Mana Drains. Also, do you feel a lone Seat of the Synod or Darksteel Citadel is too much of a detriment to run, when it can help your Welder, Tinker, and TFKs? Depending on what ends up in the list, I might consider upping the artifact acceleration with Mana Vault (seems stronger in some instances, worse than others so I am unsure).

[Kowal]

Bottom to top:

Kowal, you know me; I'd try Skeletal Scrying in place of the Night's Whisper, especially given your acceleration and Mana Drains. Also, do you feel a lone Seat of the Synod or Darksteel Citadel is too much of a detriment to run, when it can help your Welder, Tinker, and TFKs? Depending on what ends up in the list, I might consider upping the artifact acceleration with Mana Vault (seems stronger in some instances, worse than others so I am unsure).

I really like Night's Whisper because it reduces the mana curve of the deck.  The unfortunate truth about scrying is that in order to generate card advantage it competes with Thirst for Knowledge.  In terms of creating additional artifacts maindeck, I really dislike the artifact lands but I could be persuaded to add Tormod's Crypt back to the maindeck since I still feel it's an outrageously solid maindeck artifact.  I don't really like Mana Vault too much in this build, and really any build that isn't aiming to take advantage of spells like the aforementioned Scrying, or Gifts Ungiven, etc.

Did you ever wish you had DSC or Titan main?  I know if I'm playing GAT or something Gush<>Scroll based, that I'm jumping for joy whenever an opponent tinkers out a Platz.

Well, actually, never wished I had them main.  I do bring in Colossus against GAT because it gives me a speedier clock and getting a single swing in makes it near impossible for them to do their cute fastbond comboing out trick.  Titan seems terrible to me given it has zero effect on anything except Gush decks, and it's very easy to minimize damage with a Gush.  I agree with your point in that other thread that Wasteland is good because it denies your opponent the ability to Gush in the first place, but Titan is no wasteland.

In regards to infinite bounce, I'd rather have a dude I can hardcast (Platts) than a dude who keeps getting shuffled back when I drop him to Thirst (DSC).  For this reason I leave both targets in against GAT.

I think this is really pertinent here.  How many times did you tinker for Slaver vs. Platinum or Black Lotus?

About a 1:1 ratio.  While I didn't do any slaving in our match, I did do frequent slaving elsewhere.  Generally Tinker is the worst of the 3 bombs so I don't make it a point to cast it as often as Will or Future Sight, but when it shows up I like having Slaver as my "oh fuck! time to win!" option.

I based the drawing engine of the deck on Dark Confidant + Night Whispers. This has allowed me to cut down to 2 the number of Thirst for Knowledge, which i consider it good but not totally broken. I think it's a good decission as i only run 1 Welder and 3 finishing Artifacts (Mindslaver, Platinum & Triskelion).

I actually hate Dark Confidant in the deck for two reasons.  The first is that your deck does plenty of damage to itself already without flipping over huge robots and 3-5cc spells all the time.  The second is that if he's your turn two play, he does nothing.  If you're lucky he's generated the same advantage as Night's Whisper by turn four, but typically he'll deal you additional damage and reveal what cards you've picked up to your opponent.

I included in the list a Fire / Ice. I find this card really powerfull in today's metagame. It kills confidants, mindcensors, etc... and it's able to stop a dedly Dryad 1 turn with the Ice, working like a Time Walk in some situations.

I like Fire/Ice for the reasons you've outlined, but as those matchups are not terribly common I don't consider it a maindeck worthy card and as such it typically warms the bench until game two.

While your deck might be good, i'd hardly call it slaver....I know we are not supposed to discuss deck names, but your deck mostly just resembles keeper - Although you still have the combo-control gameplan.

I strongly disagree here for two reasons.  Keeper is a deck based on abusing the best singleton bombs from every color, while grinding away at your opponent's manabase and actively taking control of the entire game until it eventually wins at its leisure.  If you want to make comparisons about what modern Keeper would look like, get yourself a good Stax list.  In terms of equating my deck to something you might be more familiar with, to me it looks like a black heavy Short Bus Severence Belcher, or even an OSE with a couple tricks.  Ultimately though I'm calling it Slaver because it runs the same way CS always has and has the same components, albeit in some unorthodox volume.

You seem to have cut most of the expensive bombs, but you've added future sight which makes me wonder if more welders, gifts ungiven or some other restricted bomb like yawgmoth's bargain might be better?

Certainly not on most bombs.  The only other thing I have considered to add to the deck is Gifts Ungiven, which honestly isn't very good when it's not a consistant gameplan, and isn't backed up by more red slots (like Recoup or more Welders).  Additional welders are terribly unattractive in the build given the reduction of big dumb artifacts and the intentional cutting of welders in the first place for higher average card quality.  Bargain is similar to Future Sight, but it is actually more difficult to cast since the deck tends to produce a large number of basic islands and not so much of the Underground Seas I'd need to play it.  The one mana can make a huge difference too, especially with Duress in the deck.  If I have six mana, I can Duress before I drop Future Sight, but I can't do that with Bargain.

I notice you'll want to cast multiple red spells vs stax, but only have 1 Volcanic.  I'm not sure 4 or 5 basics will make a difference, so wouldn't adding a 2nd Volc make sense?  What are you siding out for the 3 reb + 2 disrupt package? (assuming card disadvantage tutors +??)

I have felt that against Stax, being able to cast a single red spell should win the game, and having to cast additional ones is a crutch.  Typically all I have to do is drop welder and prevent their welders from hitting the table.  This forces them to frantically dig for Barbarian Ring while I wreck their board position, and they typically can't develop enough to stop me before I have such a large number of basics in play that they can no longer win.  I actually really like having the high number of basics both to dodge wasteland (mana denial has always felt like a weakness to me playing CS and this is kind of a nice breath of fresh air) and to dodge Magus of the Moon (since my black component is so heavy I suspect they'll leave him in).

In terms of the disrupting package, there are actually only 4 slots.  Caleb typed my list incorrectly and there are 2 REB and 2 Disrupt.  This depends heavily on the matchup of course.

[zeus-online]

While your deck might be good, i'd hardly call it slaver....I know we are not supposed to discuss deck names, but your deck mostly just resembles keeper - Although you still have the combo-control gameplan.

I strongly disagree here for two reasons.  Keeper is a deck based on abusing the best singleton bombs from every color, while grinding away at your opponent's manabase and actively taking control of the entire game until it eventually wins at its leisure.  If you want to make comparisons about what modern Keeper would look like, get yourself a good Stax list.  In terms of equating my deck to something you might be more familiar with, to me it looks like a black heavy Short Bus Severence Belcher, or even an OSE with a couple tricks.  Ultimately though I'm calling it Slaver because it runs the same way CS always has and has the same components, albeit in some unorthodox volume.

I disagree keeper is a deck which seeks to use all of it's resources to survive into the mid-late game, where it wins with some of the most degenerate cards on the restrict list.

I really don't think it's ability to go the mana denial way is the defining aspect of keeper.

I agree on the exclusion of dark confidant, but for different reasons, i find it a slow and unreliable way to draw extra cards.

/Zeus

Pre-edit: Would've wrote more, but i'm having a stomach-pain...

[Kelme]

So far I have really enjoyed this list

I have a question:

Why is there no tolarian academy? Especially with robots and future sight, tolarian academy may be something to consider?

[And11]

While I like the idea of bringing a Drain-based deck to the table, I can't figure out why you would ever put Goblin Welder and Mindslaver in the deck. As mentioned, Thirst loses a lot of power when you only play 1 Welder. That being said, I agree that welders and heavy artifact stuff are total junk and has always been. I'd say get your self a new draw engine.

What I'm saying is...why not get rid of Welder, Slaver, Thirsts and look elsewhere for posibilities? Maybe add Scroll, Fact, Gifts (maybe even Recoup, allthough it's an awful draw) and stuff like that. I haven't done much thinking about these slots, but Slaver and Welder are indeed dead cards.

Thanks for sharing the list and results.

[GUnit]

What I'm saying is... I haven't done much thinking ... Slaver and Welder are indeed dead cards.

When welder is converted from an engine to a singleton what happens is that instead of often being a nuisance, he becomes a bomb. He's not necessary for the deck's function, but in a pinch he can outright win you the game, given a turn or a timewalk to get him online. Plus he's obviously very strong against stax, which in theory is not a bad meta choice right now. Assuming you mostly only see welder mid-late game via draw or tutor he is essentially a must counter/remove threat for only 1 red mana. The slaver list I've been messing around with is down to two welders right now, but after seeing this I might also test out one. He's pretty awful in most opening hands.

Now, on to Slaver. I don't understand how you can call a card the ends the game the turn it comes into play dead. Remember, it is a drain deck, it does play tinker/welder, and it does have a bunch of artifact acceleration- it's not that hard to get it into play. Also, consider the metagame right now. Half the decks have ~10 ways to access bounce MD. This greatly increases the likelihood of resolving tinker against an opponent who is prepared to EOT bounce your DSC/platz, or gush out of the way of titan and then bounce him too. Just as I thought Jester's Cap was an excellent meta choice when Gifts was the most popular deck, I believe slaver is a very strong choice right now.

[master_p]

yeah, slaver wins mad numbers of games. Especially with all the gushes and fastbonds running around it is really easy to kill someone off 1 well timed slaver activation. I've been running DSC main and don't really have any complaints. He is a very relavent threat against gush decks, which make up so much of the metagame right now maindecking the iron giant makes a lot of sense to me. Plats has tested pretty subpar for me, especially with DSC maideck now. Its just easier to throw down the 11/11 and only have to have like 2 counterspells to have him go the distance then to try and protect platz over all the turns that it takes for him to win the game. I think I'm going to have to move platz to the sb or cut her all together. As kowal has stated several times keeping the card quality as high as possible is really importent to winning matches, and by adding 1 bad card in the opening 7 to the maindeck I've noticed a fairly remarkable decrease in card quality. 4 bombs really is the right number (welder, slaver, dsc, future sight in my current version)

[And11]

I disagree that playing only one Welder makes it less dead. I guess you're right, Mindslaver ends the game - at the cost of 10 mana. So does Braingeyser.

I'm just saying that in this metagame, you cannot affort to play potential (happy ?) dead cards like the two. It's all about consistency if you ask me.

[GUnit]

I'm just saying that in this metagame, you cannot affort to play potential (happy ?) dead cards like the two. It's all about consistency if you ask me.

Yeah, because tendrils of agony, empty the warrens, Darksteel Collosus, Meloku, REB and misdirection aren't potentially dead draws by any means.

[squeegee]

I think GUnit is right.  Every deck has potentially dead cards, duress is pretty bad against ichorid game 1.  The key is, how powerful is that card when it isn't dead, and how often will it be.  I say if a card wins you the game if it resolves, its probably worth the risk.

[LordHomerCat]

That's also not a convincing argument.  I mean, Time Stretch wins the game if it resolves.  So does Bargain.  But neither of those cards belongs in Control Slaver.  I think the fact that it is your best game-winning tinker target in addition to being a powerful card to discard to Thirst if you do decide to tutor up your welder makes it a fine choice.  However, Kowal would seem like the one to defer to as I would expect he has played more games with the deck than anyone else.

[GUnit]

This is what I've been playing on MWS this week:

"Empty_Slaver.dec"

Disruption/Protection (15):

4 x Duress
4 x Mana Drain
4 x Force of Will
2 x Misdirection
1 x Echoing Truth

Chocolatey Goodness (4):

1 x Goblin Welder
1 x Mindslaver
1 x Platinum Angel
1 x Empty the Warrens

Unfair Bullshit (4):

1 x Ancestral Recall
1 x Time Walk
1 x Yawgmoth's Will
1 x Tinker

Search/Draw (13):
3 x Thirst for Knowledge
4 x Brainstorm
1 x Demonic Tutor
1 x Vampiric Tutor
1 x Memory Jar
3 x Night's Whisper

Mana! (24):
9 x SoLoMoxenCryptPetal
1 x Tolarian Academy
1 x Library of Alexandria
5 x Fetch
3 x Underground Sea
1 x Volcanic Island
3 x Island


A few comments on the list:

- I chopped TfK #4 for whisper #3 today. Until that point I had only been running two. Too often, though, I started with hands that didn't want to discard artifacts but would have loved to have cast first turn whispers for me. Thirst was the centerpiece of 3 welder decks loaded with fat artifacts, but as this deck only contains 1 welder and 2 big artifacts I think 3 is probably the right choice anyway.

- Fact or Fiction: This has been gifts ungiven and future sight (one of my favourite blue cards, but it's a bit of a pain to cast sometimes, compared to instants gifts and FoF and due to the UUU cost), and I'm still not sure which option I prefer. Right now I'm happy with the shear card advantage of FoF though.

- Empty the Warrens: In testing I rarely made good use of big artifact #3 (trike and duplicant were tested), but I'm not comfortable with only one *actual* win condition. (I know mindslaver, like will, often leads to a win, but unless you're playing against a deck that can commit suicide it doesn't win the game itself. The problem with playing this card is that it makes me wish I was running jar (historically my favourite artifact in CS).

- I guess I can sub jar into the FoF/Gifts/FS slot since it does have better synergy with TfK. I could also up the TfK count back to 4 if I did this. I'll test this in my games tonight and see how I like it.

- My last concern is that I'm inclined to play quite a few red cards in my SB but only have 1 MD volc. Either I can add another main or let one chill in the SB and eat up a slot. My SB is pretty rough so I'm not going to post it yet.

EDIT: +1 jar, -1 fact after playing some more

[treezzzzz]

One of the most important design points in generating this build was including four Duress.  I honestly do not feel that any deck in type one is correctly built if it's not running four Duress.  This is especially true right now since almost every deck is trying to abuse Merchant Scroll as the busted tutor it is.

Now that Lorwyn is coming out would you say that all type one decks should run four thoughtseizes instead of duresses?  Or would you run thoughtseizes and duresses?  Or maybe duresses and win the game with 2 life?

[GUnit]

I know you're not asking me that question, but I think what I'm going to do is just keep a tally of how many times I wished my duress was a thoughtseize and then use that to decide whether the life (and 80 dollars) is worth the added effect.

[Kowal]

My opinion on Thoughtseize, at least in the context of Control Slaver, is that you're giving up a resource you already use heavily (from your fetchlands and Night's Whispers) to mimic Duress anyway.  How many times have you Duressed GAT and said "oh woe is me, if only I could take your Dryad instead of your merchant scroll/gush/brainstorm/will/tutor"?  If the answer is more than zero, you should rethink that.  Worse yet, how many times have you Duressed GushStorm and said "oh, if only I could take your Darksteel Colossus!" or Duressed Flash and said "in an ideal world, I'd just take your Virulent Sliver!"  It may be some supplement to 4 Duress in the future but never before I hit 4 of them.

Regarding the list a couple posts above, it looks pretty okay though Misdirection is quite terrible in Control Slaver.  It excels when your deck is adept at making your opponent's bombs less than stellar, since it forces them to get Ancestral.  Control Slaver doesn't do that.  It also excels when your decks needs to punch through some early combination of spells to set up an unbeatable position, like GAT setting up Gushbond or Pitchlong setting up Bargain.  Control Slaver doesn't do that either.  Really all it does is coax bad players in to throwing their hand away on a counterwar they shouldn't be fighting so hard over anyway.  I would seriously maindeck Spell Snare before Misdirection, and that still seems terrible to me.

[Irenicus]

Just as a thought: What about Mind Twist instead of 2 Misdirections? With 4 Duress they shouldn't get misdirected that often and they work well with Drain too. Maybe it's a bad idea, but in my last tournaments I sometimes wished I had some Mind Twists in my deck (wasn't Slaver) and in general it can win you the game before your Will is lethal. I think that Tinker works in a same way, but maybe 2 additional early bombs won't hurt (early = before your Will is letha!).

[The Atog Lord]

The problem with Mind Twist is Misdirection. It certainly isn't the sort of card that you want to get Misdirected back at yourself. Does Duress prevent Misdirection from happening to you? Well, waiting until you have Duress ready to cast your Mind Twist isn't a good idea. You are then castinga a discard spell to enable your discard spell. Not so great. That's why cards like Gifts and other similar cards make better "bombs" than Mind Twist.

Also, from my testing, Misdirection is not good in Control Slaver. You simply don't have the card draw to leverage it as Gifts did or as GAT does.

[Zherbus]

My opinion on Thoughtseize, at least in the context of Control Slaver, is that you're giving up a resource you already use heavily (from your fetchlands and Night's Whispers) to mimic Duress anyway.  How many times have you Duressed GAT and said "oh woe is me, if only I could take your Dryad instead of your merchant scroll/gush/brainstorm/will/tutor"?  If the answer is more than zero, you should rethink that.  Worse yet, how many times have you Duressed GushStorm and said "oh, if only I could take your Darksteel Colossus!" or Duressed Flash and said "in an ideal world, I'd just take your Virulent Sliver!"  It may be some supplement to 4 Duress in the future but never before I hit 4 of them.

I agree with this 100%. I think Thoughtseize (TS) will find it's own application in Vintage, but most of the time not being able to "Duress" a creature isn't much of a problem. Duress my Tinker Target? Sure. Duress a Dryad instead of my Draw engine? Sure. It goes on. Many decks burn their life totals enough without TS. I see it being better against Fish-based decks, sure, but worse against most of the upper tier.

[Irenicus]

@ The Atog Lord:
That's the reason why I said "shouldn't get misdirected that often". It will happen, but the chance is smaller when you are playing 4 Duress as well. A misdirected Mind Twist looses you the game just as a misdirected Ancestral does. But you would never cut Ancestral from any deck playing blue (that's just a comparison, I don't want to say that Mind Twist is as good as Ancestral!). I unsterstand that in some deck Gifts is a better Bomb than Mind Twist, but is that true for a Slaver-List that plays only one Goblin Welder?

[zeus-online]

I tried running multiple mind twists in a control package, but i quickly abandoned it for faster spells..mind twist is a slow bomb that win games..As for twist in slaver, i really can't see it...it doesn't fit into the strategy all that well, i would probably rather play more spells which enables me to combo out...Mind twist isn't really disruption...it's more akin to yawgmoth's will and tinker just waaay slower, and with mindslaver as an alternativ game-ending bomb i really don't think mind twist is necessary.

/Zeus

[GUnit]

Regarding the list a couple posts above, it looks pretty okay though Misdirection is quite terrible in Control Slaver. .. I would seriously maindeck Spell Snare before Misdirection, and that still seems terrible to me.

I'll add another volc and test reb and pyro in those slots. This helps my SB out anyway, because it will probably have a decent amount of red in it. Spell snare's OK, but I don't get too excited about it if I'm not playing legacy.

[Kowal]

@ The Atog Lord:
That's the reason why I said "shouldn't get misdirected that often". It will happen, but the chance is smaller when you are playing 4 Duress as well. A misdirected Mind Twist looses you the game just as a misdirected Ancestral does. But you would never cut Ancestral from any deck playing blue (that's just a comparison, I don't want to say that Mind Twist is as good as Ancestral!). I unsterstand that in some deck Gifts is a better Bomb than Mind Twist, but is that true for a Slaver-List that plays only one Goblin Welder?

I frequently avoid any play that nets drawing Ancestral, and sit on my disadvantage tutors as long as possible, strictly because I DON'T want to see it against most of the upper tier.  It's not an early game bomb against GAT, it's another clip for when you've already busted your load and need to refill.

For this reason, running Mind Twist is actually exceptionally bad.  I appreciate in theory that it might not be that awful, but in practice it's actually worse than Sage of Epityr in the deck.

[GUnit]

I am really loving ETW in the deck, but I did end up removing memory jar after playing a bunch of games. It was absolutely wonderful in the more redundant and combo-y burning slaver list I was running a couple years ago, but right now it often just fills my hand with disruption and draw. I played with a fourth whisper in this slot for a handful of games and enjoyed it, but I think I'm going to test Future Sight (both the enchantment and the dude) out in this slot and see how that goes. What is your opinion on playing extirpate in the board? I can see it being really strong against landstill and bomberman, both of which get played a decent amount in my metagame, and it's not bad against a few other decks as well.

[Kowal]

For a long time I wanted to find room for a maindeck Extirpate, primarily for GAT.  You can stop GAT from exploding pretty easily by Extirpating Gush after they find fastbond, and it makes them look a bit foolish.  You can also frequently irritate GAT or Flash by countering a green dude and Extirpating it.  This, for me, is one of the few arguments for Thoughtseize.

It really does feel more like a cute trick sort of card rather than a solid tool, though.  In the sideboard there are much better things available, and in the maindeck I'd really prefer to just keep the draw spells there instead.

[GUnit]

Have you given any further thought to removing the welder? I've only played maybe 10 matches online (with a decent record, although I've lost a match or two to fish and once to stax) and so far welder hasn't been a factor in any game, except maybe one that I was already winning. Why not keep pushing in the "just play good cards instead of situational jank" direction and make Kowal Keeper?
The first thing that I considered when I decided to test a list without welder in it was: -1 welder, -1 volcanic // +1 balance, +1 tundra, which is what gave me the idea. I played a combo-y burning slaver list a while ago, as I have mentioned in the past, and I ran a single tundra in the deck so that I could wish for balance. That change won me a few games in the only tournament I played it in. I top8'd but got pounded by pitch long, which was just starting to become popular at the time.