Empty Gifts

[LSD/Cruise]

I just want some discussion on this so-called, "Best deck in the format" going. I'm really interested in this deck, but havent invested a lot of time into playing this deck. Of course, it is always nice to hear from the community.


Empty Gifts

4 mox
1 black lotus
1 sol ring
4 polluted delta
2 flooded strand
1 tropical island
2 volcanic island
2 underground sea
2 island
1 library of Alexandria
4 gush
4 merchant scroll
4 force of will
4 brainstorm
4 duress
2 mana drain
1 misdirection
1 red elemental blast
1 pyroblast
1 ancestral recall
1 vampiric tutor
1 demonic tutor
1 yawgmoths will
1 mystical tutor
1 fastbond
1 regrowth
1 gifts ungiven
1 fire/ice
1 empty the warrens
1 meloku the clouded mirror
1 tinker
1 darksteel colossus
1 echoing truth
1 time walk

Sideboard

2 pyrocalsm
2 pithing needle
4 leyline of the void
1 ancient grudge
1 rebuild
1 rack and ruin
2 trickbind
1 pyroblast
1 red elemental blast


TK and ICBM made top finishes with this deck, and placing 3 members of ICBM in the Top 8 at SCG Indy. It also has many similarities to GAT. It doesnt run Dryads and Togs, but instead EtW, Meloku, Tinker/DSC, and Gifts Ungiven (which comboes with the win conditions well).

[Nastaboi]

I think win conditions should not occupy more than two slots, so Tinker-Colossus would be the first to cut. Please at least consider Fact and Twister in the deck, draw power they give is just ridiculous. We have played with similar manabase -Library -Sol Ring -card +Crypt +Petal +land. Crypt may be liability without Tinker, we have not made final judgement on it.

Our disruption base differs so that we run second Misdirection and 0-2 Drains, and Chain of Vapor has been our MD bounce of choice. But they are somewhat meta dependable like having F/I or not.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

@Nastaboi
I've play tested this build off and on. I would cut meloku before I cut tinker DSC. Your draw engine is very good, so the 5 artifacts (not counting lotus) are usually available (as far as my testing goes), and some times you just can't get up a storm given the game state. Supposedly meloku fixes this issue, but meloku is victim to all the same hate that the gush engine and ETW is, and it gets hit by REB. However, I really can’t think of anything else that would fill the slot better. Draw 7’s seem weak with the large amount of control in the build and the remaining tutors just seem too slow. It’s always been my philosophy to fill up an extra slot with a win condition if the option is available. It seems smart to leave in tinker/DSC opposed to putting all you eggs into one pyroclasmable basket when the decks only “win now” option includes a time walk.

On a side note, I would not play mana crypt in a fastbond build like this, especially without being able to tinker it away. You need your life for the gushing.

[feyd]

my deck looks pretty similiar to this...except +fact or fiction - gifts ungiven +tendrils of agony -meloku the clouded mirror

<Decklist edited out by Dante>

Feyd - we try to avoid the "me too" type posts here at TMD.  It's nice that your deck is similar to the build mentioned here, but unless you want to discuss those differences, just posting your decklist doesn't add much to the discussion, which is what we are striving for here at TMD.  Thanks!

Dante

PS here is a link to the rules thread for posting!  http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=18027.msg299973#msg299973

[ErkBek]

I've been playing this deck for a while now and I really like it. I've made a couple small changes to fit my play style, most noticeably though I've cut Meloku for Tendrils. I hate to admit it, but I'm having a fair amount of trouble in the Bomberman matchup.  Basically, the problem comes to the Trinket Mage toolbox (which pretty much answers all my kill conditions) and the large amounts of threats bomberman has between turns 2-4. The dice roll is pretty huge in this matchup, since it determines who gets drain mana up first and if you can scroll before they have drain/mindcensor. Most of the time Bomberman's Trinket Mages and Aven Mindcensors are must counter threats (unless they tutor up the wrong solution for your particular hand, ie get tormod's while your holding Tinker). The real problem though is just the number of threats that they have turns 2-4, but also their random trinket toolbox cards that come down on cheaply and totally hose your kill condition.

Any advice for this matchup? Do you try to slow roll the game and just try to throw a ton of threats at them all in one turn? Anyone else having this problem?

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

I’m having the bomberman problem as well, not to mention a problem with Tyrant oath. It seems to always combo out a turn before I can answer/counter their threats. If anyone has some advice on that match up, I’d like to hear it.

Something I’ve recently tried is taking out a single duress and main decking a rebuild, simply because the stax match up is so poor. It helps somewhat against the bomberman matchup when I draw it, but it usually needs to be coupled with a timewalk. The games I win seem to involve fire/ice, rebuild, pithing needle (on EE), and meloku. EE seems to be the card to call with needle.

[Mr. Sligh]

I think this deck is really amazing and I'm trying to play it in Europe...
Cutting Meloku or TpC bring you to change your plan for victory... You shift to a more intensive combo game plan...
Meloku is pretty good in GAT matchup because GAT has only one card to transform his creatures in something "unblockable", that is Cunning Wish... So countering it you could stop creatures with a simple 1/1 token...
What about TpC it is the only method I know to win senseless with Goblin or aggro-control.deck (they are really popular in Europe, expecially the first)...
 
However I doesn't understand why no ones of ICBM team play Hurkyl's Recall in their sideboard... Why Ancient Grudge/Rebuild/Rack and Ruin could be better of an istant that bounce opponent's board for 1U???

[GUnit]

I was wondering exactly the same thing, actually. Right now I'm in the process of developing a UB control deck with a tendrils finish and between my side and my main I play three hurkyl's recalls. I honestly think they're going to be great in the lorwyn meta. I'm curious to see how long 4 duress effects remains commonplace in control decks after thorn and gaddock teeg (if he has a relevant impact) become legal.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

I think this deck is really amazing and I'm trying to play it in Europe...
Cutting Meloku or TpC bring you to change your plan for victory... You shift to a more intensive combo game plan...
Meloku is pretty good in GAT matchup because GAT has only one card to transform his creatures in something "unblockable", that is Cunning Wish... So countering it you could stop creatures with a simple 1/1 token...
What about TpC it is the only method I know to win senseless with Goblin or aggro-control.deck (they are really popular in Europe, expecially the first)...
 
However I doesn't understand why no ones of ICBM team play Hurkyl's Recall in their sideboard... Why Ancient Grudge/Rebuild/Rack and Ruin could be better of an instant that bounce opponent's board for 1U???

I'm fairly certain at the time chalice @ 2 was a concern. It shuts off a lot of your decks, and a 2 cost spell isn't a good idea as an as newer, although 2 cost spell could be good in a pinch early game, thats why there's only 1 ancient grudge and generally a couple rack and ruins/ rebuilds with maybe a pernicious deed, which cost 3, something stacks tends to not chalice out. With the 9 sphere decks on the way, most seem to be cutting chalice, I changed to an extra ancient grudge opposed to R&R and the sb rebuild to a hurkyl's recall. The main deck is still a rebuild, simply because it cycles when your not playing against shop. I'd expect most sb's to do the same.

[LSD/Cruise]

Soo... let's see... I've been making these changes late, and it seemed to have worked.

-1 Meloku

+1 Burning Wish
+1 Recoup

Recoup is awesome. It recurs Duress to protect your bomb, it recurs Scroll, Regrowth itself, Yawgmoth's Will, Tinker, and Time Walk and stuff.

Why run this over Regrowth?

To make Gifts more lethel when you have 7 mana on the board. It's an immediate win if you can muster up 7 mana for this.

As for Burning Wish, it's just Tendrils when you want it to be and something else at other times. Reasoning for this is that I never really liked Tendrils unless I'm comboing off, and while I'm comboing off, I resolved Will and the extra mana spent for Wish is squat to me. Burning Wish having a purpose outside of Tendrils is awesome.

Like I ran run some removal like Perish or Chainer's Edict, Clasms, a bomb or just a draw spell like Deep Anal, and other goodness.

[skuras101]

I love Meloku in this deck. It wins so many games on its own. In this type of deck is really feels like it combos with itself. So funny to think of all the standard games where I road this guy to victory. I think cutting him is a big mistake. Adding in Burning Wish and Recoup seems very random. This isn't the old Gifts deck. With the inclusion of Burning Wish you need a completely different sideboard and your mana base may even need to be rethought. The current sideboard has only one BW target, Pyroclasm. I'm sure Tendrils would be in your board, but I think you're really limiting your sideboard plans by making this change. Recoup seems very mana intensive and lacks enough raw power to be included in this build. You cast recoup, your opponent allows it, then counters your spell that is now RFG. It just doesn't seem worth it in this particular build.

Anyone else unhappy with the 1 maindeck Fire/Ice. It seems like I always pitch it to Force without much consideration. In many matches it's nearly useless. I'm toying with changing it to a Chain of Vapor or Thoughtseize. I am also considering cutting the Misdirection for the 5th duress, but I think I'd rather keep MisD and axe the Fire/Ice. Chain of Vapor seems really strong in a Lorwyn meta that is predicted to be really Stax heavy. If I cut the Fire/Ice I think I will put it in the board in favor of the 2nd Trickbind. There are more and more creatures being played in the Midwest, so games 2 and 3 I like the extra creature kill. Game 1 against combo and control I'd just really rather have something more proactive. Discuss.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

@ skuras101
I've actually been very happy with fire/ice. Last tourney I played against a lot of urbana fish, a mask naught, some mind censors, stax. It was great to have in the main, if nothing else it taps dryad and buys you a turn for  , i.e. time walk in a way. In a lot of match ups burning of a bob wins you the game. If your meta calls for a 5th duress go with it, but if you find your self often needing to crack a fetch for a black source early that could be bad. I'd test a ponder/impulse or something to help you catch that 2nd land drop more consistently.

[marcb]

Fire/Ice has won me a game or two. I would replace it if I could come up with something that I'd rather have. Maybe a repeal, thoughtseize, or trickbind would be best. I'm not sure. As for Meloku, I haven't cast it once yet, so I think that I would really like to replace it, but I'm unsure what win condition would go better in its place (I like having three win conditions and a creature win is pretty good in the current meta). I agree that recoup and burning wish are just not strong enough in this deck.

[marcb]

marcb,

 No one is writing about this deck anymore, and I haven't had this much fun playing with a deck since I can't even remember. I was wondering what people thought of library. I know it's great against GAT, but lately I have been wishing I had stripmine somewhere in my deck. It's great against ichorid (might even give a small hope game 1). Against stax it can get workshop game 1 or Maze game 2, which I usually don't have enough mana against stax to win via empty, and maze stops dsc pretty nicely. It could also slow down flash or keep bomberman off 2 W for salvagers, and in post sb games it might even prevent flash or ichorid from casting reverent silence to get rid of leyline. Anyway, interested in other peoples opinions. The other thing that I have been wondering is if anyone has actually tried dizzy spell. I know I am going to get laughed at for this suggestion, but I haven't tried it myself, and I was wondering if it might take the place of REB or MisD game 1. Lastly, I was wondering how people sb. Here are my ideas, but I'm sure the professionals could give better advice.

Ichorid
-4 Duress
-1 Pyroblast
-1 REB
+4 Leyline
+2 Pithing Needle

GAT
-2 Duress
+1 REB
+1 pyroblast
Don't know what else

Stax
-4 Duress
-1 REB
-1 pyroblast
-1 Misdirection
-2 Mana Drain ?? (seems nice to drain a high cc artifact early in the game to get ahead)
+4 Leyline
+2 Pithing Needle
+1 Rebuild
+1 rack and ruin
+1 ancient grudge

Flash
-4 Duress
-1 Fire/Ice
-1 Vampiric tutor ???
+4 Leyline
+1 REB
+1 pyroblast

Bomberman
?????????
-4 Duress
-1 Fire/Ice
-1 Vamp. Tutor
+2 Trickbind
+2 Pyroclasm
+1 REB
+1 pyroblast

  My final thought. Maybe it is because I don't know how to sideboard, but I often find myself replacing 4 Duress with 4 Leyline game 2 and game 3 against almost every match (notably not against GAT).  Has anyone thought about playing leyline main? Thanks in advance for not beheading me for some of the crazy ideas mentioned above.

Marc

[ashiXIII]

marcb,

 No one is writing about this deck anymore, and I haven't had this much fun playing with a deck since I can't even remember. I was wondering what people thought of library. I know it's great against GAT, but lately I have been wishing I had stripmine somewhere in my deck. It's great against ichorid (might even give a small hope game 1). Against stax it can get workshop game 1 or Maze game 2, which I usually don't have enough mana against stax to win via empty, and maze stops dsc pretty nicely. It could also slow down flash or keep bomberman off 2 W for salvagers, and in post sb games it might even prevent flash or ichorid from casting reverent silence to get rid of leyline. Anyway, interested in other peoples opinions. The other thing that I have been wondering is if anyone has actually tried dizzy spell. I know I am going to get laughed at for this suggestion, but I haven't tried it myself, and I was wondering if it might take the place of REB or MisD game 1. Lastly, I was wondering how people sb. Here are my ideas, but I'm sure the professionals could give better advice.

Ichorid
-4 Duress
-1 Pyroblast
-1 REB
+4 Leyline
+2 Pithing Needle

GAT
-2 Duress
+1 REB
+1 pyroblast
Don't know what else

Stax
-4 Duress
-1 REB
-1 pyroblast
-1 Misdirection
-2 Mana Drain ?? (seems nice to drain a high cc artifact early in the game to get ahead)
+4 Leyline
+2 Pithing Needle
+1 Rebuild
+1 rack and ruin
+1 ancient grudge

Flash
-4 Duress
-1 Fire/Ice
-1 Vampiric tutor ???
+4 Leyline
+1 REB
+1 pyroblast

Bomberman
?????????
-4 Duress
-1 Fire/Ice
-1 Vamp. Tutor
+2 Trickbind
+2 Pyroclasm
+1 REB
+1 pyroblast

  My final thought. Maybe it is because I don't know how to sideboard, but I often find myself replacing 4 Duress with 4 Leyline game 2 and game 3 against almost every match (notably not against GAT).  Has anyone thought about playing leyline main? Thanks in advance for not beheading me for some of the crazy ideas mentioned above.

Marc

Your sideboarding strategies seem fairly bad, to be blunt. I don't understand why you always take out Duress. It's in the main for a reason. It's also a complete house against Flash; probably the best card in your deck. You also want to keep them all in against GaT, and they're better than Pyroclasm against Bomberman.

 Against Stax, you definitely want to keep in the 2 Mana Drains.

[Outlaw]

Duress is far superior then REB agaisnt Flash, simply because flash is made to always win when spells are on the stack.  Typically flash will scroll for flash and pass the turn, then you duress it and they cry. 

[Smmenen]

Although I see what you are saying, I've often found the opposite to be true.  Alot of Duress's will be responded to with Brainstorm, making them ineffective.   A duress on the draw almost always seems like I'm going to lose whereas I feel like I still have a shot with Reb. 

[marcb]

[/quote]


Your sideboarding strategies seem fairly bad, to be blunt. I don't understand why you always take out Duress. It's in the main for a reason. It's also a complete house against Flash; probably the best card in your deck. You also want to keep them all in against GaT, and they're better than Pyroclasm against Bomberman.

 Against Stax, you definitely want to keep in the 2 Mana Drains.
[/quote]

I appreciate the bluntness. Might I ask what your sb strategy is and why? I agree that I don't want to take out mana drains against stax but I don't see how else to add 9 cards from the sb. I appreciate your comment, but I would prefer a more substantive reply then a mere criticism without a proposed solution. Please keep the comments coming. A blunt reply is better than no reply at all.

Marc

[Outlaw]

Although I see what you are saying, I've often found the opposite to be true.  Alot of Duress's will be responded to with Brainstorm, making them ineffective.   A duress on the draw almost always seems like I'm going to lose whereas I feel like I still have a shot with Reb. 

I dont know how I feel about that.  In winning waterbury I always looked forward to my opponent trying to battle me on the stack where I could just out number their counters with my own.  You can only brainstorm in response to duress a certain percent chance and its sometimes rare because of how aggressive flash is played, typically players chose to push their chips in hoping to have the best hand leaving them tapped out and unable to respond with brainstorm (in most cases they expel their brainstorms turbo digging). 

[Smmenen]

Although I see what you are saying, I've often found the opposite to be true.  Alot of Duress's will be responded to with Brainstorm, making them ineffective.   A duress on the draw almost always seems like I'm going to lose whereas I feel like I still have a shot with Reb. 

I dont know how I feel about that.  In winning waterbury I always looked forward to my opponent trying to battle me on the stack where I could just out number their counters with my own.  You can only brainstorm in response to duress a certain percent chance and its sometimes rare because of how aggressive flash is played, typically players chose to push their chips in hoping to have the best hand leaving them tapped out and unable to respond with brainstorm (in most cases they expel their brainstorms turbo digging). 

leaving them tapped out?  I don't understand what you are saying.  honestly.

I tested agianst chapin a ton at Gencon and it seemed like every time i played duress on the draw, he'd just respond with brainstorm, untap and then win.  turn two duress was often the same.   

[LSD/Cruise]

Personally, here's how I would board..


GAT:

-1 Fire // Ice
-1 Mana Drain

+2 REB/Pyro


Stax:

-1 Fire // Ice
-1 Vampiric Tutor
-1 Mis-D
-2 REB/Pyro
-4 Duress

+1 Ancient Grudge (Personally, I'd go for Gorilla Shaman in this slot)
+1 Rack and Ruin
+1 Rebuild
+2 Pithing Needle
+4 Leyline of the Void


Ichorid:

-2 Mana Drain
-2 REB/Pyro
-1 LoA
-1 Gifts Ungiven
-1 Mis-D
-1 Vampiric Tutor


+4 Leyline of the Void
+2 Pithing Needle
+2 Pyroclasm


Flash:

-2 Mana Drain
-1 Vampiric Tutor
-1 Fire // Ice
-1 Echoing Truth
-1 LoA

+4 Leyline
+2 REB/Pyro


Bomberman:

-1 Vampiric Tutor
-1 Mis-D
-1 Duress
-1 Mox Jet

+2 Pyroclasm
+2 Pithing Needle


Those might be somewhat flawed though. If anybody has a better idea how to board against Bomberman, please tell me now or reply to my post.

[Smmenen]

Personally, here's how I would board..


Flash

-1 Fire // Ice

Fire/Ice is insane against Flash.  NEVER side it out against Flash.

[Will]

I'd say that strategy for boarding seems pretty similar to mine and my plan against bomberman would be similar but I think Echoing Truth wouldn't be as good in games 2 + 3
-1 Echoing Truth
-1 Misdirection
-1 Duress
-1 ? Duress/ Mox/ Sol Ring
+2 Pyroclasm
+2 Pithing Needle
BTW, what is everyone's thoughts on Thoughtseize, I got my set thinking they might have a place as a 1 of instead of a duress but now I'm saying it doesn't need to be there but what does everyone think about 1 thoughtseize in for 1 duress just so you can hit those Dryads/Protean Hulks etc. 

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

running thoughtseize as a one of won't provide you with any sort of consistence that you can depend on to improve matchups, and the life loss, can be significant in this deck. I wouldn't bother

[marcb]

So clearly I don't know how to sideboard, though I do have a comment. I agree with smennen that fire/ice is good against flash, but i also think e. truth is for similar reasons, so i'm not sure if this should be boarded out. Also, I noticed nobody has mentioned trickbind. Does anyone think this has a place in situations where you're not playing against storm? It stops protean hulk and salvagers (for a turn) too. Also is taking vamp. tutor out against ichorid the right play?  It seems important if you want to maximize your chance of playing needle early.

Marc

[Will]

I play trickbind in my board as a 1 of instead of a stifle and it made for a really nice gifts pile vs. storm.  I guess my only reasoning that thoughtseize might have a place was because of gifts along with the ability if you wanted to, to tutor for it hitting something duress may not have but in hindsight, duress doesn't play as important a role in the deck and so it probably wouldn't change much. 

[nataz]

leaving them tapped out?  I don't understand what you are saying.  honestly.

Look at it this way, duress is playing a bigger role in the metagame now then it was last waterbury. Even now, if I'm playing flash, im much more likely to expend my first turn blue source right away on my first main phase then hold it in fear of duress. Its a cost benifit in that I'd rather see more cards and increase my chances of going off turn 1/setting up turn two by looking at more cards, then play defensivly. (This btw is why I think ponder is such a house in flash)

Unless I KNOW im playing against duress AND I have a hand that is weak agaist it I'll prob just play out whatever I have in hand right away - be it a turn 1 merch scroll, black tutor (demonic/imp), ponder, or brainstorm, leaving me tapped out on my opponents t1.

That said, against GAT, especially games 2/3 I play a lot differently, but I'm pretty sure my board plan is way different then yours or pats.

[LSD/Cruise]

Personally, here's how I would board..


Flash

-1 Fire // Ice

Fire/Ice is insane against Flash.  NEVER side it out against Flash.

So how should I board against Flash, then?

[Smmenen]

leaving them tapped out?  I don't understand what you are saying.  honestly.

Look at it this way, duress is playing a bigger role in the metagame now then it was last waterbury. Even now, if I'm playing flash, im much more likely to expend my first turn blue source right away on my first main phase then hold it in fear of duress. Its a cost benifit in that I'd rather see more cards and increase my chances of going off turn 1/setting up turn two by looking at more cards, then play defensivly. (This btw is why I think ponder is such a house in flash)

Unless I KNOW im playing against duress AND I have a hand that is weak agaist it I'll prob just play out whatever I have in hand right away - be it a turn 1 merch scroll, black tutor (demonic/imp), ponder, or brainstorm, leaving me tapped out on my opponents t1.

It shouldn't matter whether Flash Brainstorms on its turn or in response to Duress.  The result should be  the same: the Duress misses the best card.   

[nataz]

yes and no. I mean its not unlikely that the second card you put back down with brainstorm is a dead draw. There are enough shuffle effects in flash that dumping two good cards back down on the fear of duress is prob not a good idea, so while I may hide a flash/scroll on top, i prob still have a pact/counter/whatever im going to need to go off next turn in hand. It of course helps that until recently you could just leave hulks in hand safe from duress, but obv thoughtseize has changed that somewhat

Just generally speaking, trying to out counter flash just seems counter intuitive. Sure, you drop the 2cc drains and add in a 1cc reb, but thats still up against 0cc pacts. Duress comes at flash from a different angle, not only forcing flash to slow its game plan down by holding back brainstorms, but also simply by being more likely to resolve. Negation is only good when going off/reacting, its a terrible setup spell and wont often counter a duress. Duress runs up against 4x force of will, reb runs against 4 fow and 4 pact.