WU Tang Wizards (formerly UR Fish 2K7)

[ErkBek]

EDIT: The deck has evolved from UR to UW since Meddling Mage is better than Magus of the Moon in here and STP is solid in the maindeck over Red Blast since it improves non-drain matchups substantially and STP is solid vs. drains too. Please read (or at least skim) the whole thread though before commenting since much of the same principles apply and many questions have already been answered.

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UR Fish 2K7

A couple of days ago I realized the ridiculous amounts of synergy available to UR Fish and I had to build it. UR Fish was really the first deck that I played seriously in vintage and it is  definitely one of my favorites ever. A couple years ago, I tried rebuilding it based around the synergy between Chalice, Gorilla Shaman, Ninja, and a full set of moxes. This should sound familiar because it has evolved into a top deck created by myself with the help from some teammates, URBana Fish. An early list of URBana can be found here about half way down the page (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=26909.0).

This UR Fish idea I had though is quite a bit different form URBana fish and previous UR Fish decks. Basically, Gush is to be used as a draw engine with a very lean mana base to produce a very high disruption based deck. In conjunction with the Gush draw engine, I decided to cut all mana disruption from the deck since in today’s meta game, mana denial can be very difficult to execute.

Before I present a deck list, here’s some of the ideas I used to model the deck:

1) An ultra light, yet very stable, mana base. Gush allows you to just cheat sometimes. Protecting your duals from wastes and jumping you to 3 mana on 2 lands is awesome. Sage of Epityr has been included in this deck for a number of reasons, largely though so you can keep 1 landers and still consistently hit your second land drop.

2) Voidmage Prodigy and new disruptive wizards. Once Voidmage Prodigy hits the board, you are really in control. The deck plays 12 wizards, all of which become comparable to counterspells with split second once this guy hits. This countermagic engine is comparable to how Scroll functions in Meandeck Gifts. On paper you’ve only got a few counters, but in gameplay you’ve got a ton.

3) Waterfront Bouncer is amazing. Anyone who has played URBana fish knows that this guy is amazing, especially vs. Dryads, aggro, and large artifact men. The thing about bouncer though is you need a way to feed him cards, URBana does this typically with ninjas and dark confidants. This deck uses gush and Ninja to generate card advantage to feed your Bouncer.

4) No mana denial. Wastelands and Gush in the same don’t just don’t seem like a winning team. Accordingly, Stifle has been eschewed from this list since without wastelands it it’s not going to be anywhere as useful.

So now that we’re on the same page, here’s the list I’ve come too after a good 25 or 30 games of testing:

UR Fish 2K7 (aka Happy Wizards)

Mana/Accel 19
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Lotus
3 Volcanic Island
5 Island
5 Fetchlands
3 Aether Vial

Disruption Spells 14
4 FoW
3 MisD
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Spell Snare
1 Echoing Truth

Draw Engine 9
1 Ancestral
1 Walk
3 Brainstorm
4 Gush

Creatures 18
4 Voidmage Prodigy*
3 Ninja of the Deep Hours
3 Waterfront Bouncer
2 SpellStutter Sprite*
3 Sage of Epityr*
3 Magus of the Moon*

*The 12 wizards

While I’m personally not a big fan of Aether Vial and it wasn’t in my original list, it’s worked out really well in here. I’m not sure the deck wants 4, but it’s something I’m considering.

The countermagic suite includes 7 free counters and 6 one mana counters. Again this works perfectly in the light manabase.

4 Gush but only 3 Brainstorm! Becker is obviously out of his mind! Basically the reasoning behind this is Gush nets a card for 0 mana which is a better effect than filtering for 1 mana. Since the deck is only running 5 fetchlands in accordance to fit Magus of the Moon, Brainstorm fetch isn’t always an easy play to pull off. With all that said Brainstorm is still good.

While Spellstutter Sprite (lorwyn card) looks iffy on paper, it’s been quite decent in practice. I’ve nabbed a number of brainstorms, Duresses, and even a crucial Mox Pearl (and it was). Stutter also allows you to play an EOT creature with flying to ninja out the following turn. Lastly, it’s another Wizard to strengthen the voidmage soft lock.

The sideboard is still a work in progress and I’d absolutely be open for suggestions. Here’s what I’ve got at the moment

4 Leyline of the Void
2 Energy Flux
3 Shattering Spree / Greater Gargadon (Gargadon if you expect oath, spree for shop aggro)
2 Echoing Truth
2 Jitte
2 Fire/Ice

Stax
+4 Leyline
+2 Energy Flux
+3 Spree / Gargadon
+1 Jitte
+2 Fire/Ice
-3 MisD
-3 REB
-2 Spellstutter Sprite
-3 Snare
-1 Echoing Truth

GAT
+1 Echoing Truth
-1 Sage of Epityr

Empty Gifts
(on the play)
+2 Echoing Truth
+1 Random Leyline
-3 Waterfront Bouncer
(on the draw)
+2 Echoing Truth
+4 Leyline
-3 Bouncer
-2 Sprite
-1 Sage

Flash
+4 Leyline
-3 Magus
-1 Waterfront Bouncer

From my limited testing with the deck, I absolutely think it could become a contender. I’d be interested to here any questions, comments, or suggestions.

-Eric Becker

note: Please do not make any comments about why you should play this over such and such deck. I’d rather not restate it over and over. Gush lets you play a very mana light deck effectively, making room for a  high amount of disruptive spells and creatures.

[Sextiger]

How often have you had trouble with early threats that are not creature based? You run 19 counterspells between dudes and actual spells but only one echoing truth, so I'm just curious.

Have you tried working with more sprites? Two seems like an odd number when they obviously grow stronger in numbers. 

I really like the deck though, I'm been trying to implement a deck with Voidmages for a while now since Wizards has finally started to unleash a swarm of playable wizards. 

[ErkBek]

How often have you had trouble with early threats that are not creature based? You run 19 counterspells between dudes and actual spells but only one echoing truth, so I'm just curious.

Have you tried working with more sprites? Two seems like an odd number when they obviously grow stronger in numbers. 

I really like the deck though, I'm been trying to implement a deck with Voidmages for a while now since Wizards has finally started to unleash a swarm of playable wizards. 

Well, the 1 of echoing truth is just sorta for getting lucky with. It's rarely ever totally dead, it occasionally saves you big time, but I'm not always pleased to see it especially in multiples game 1. One nice thing is it sort of lets me run a 16 card sideboard since I'd want a total of 3 post board anyways.

More Sprites = counter bigger spells didn't occur to me for some reason.....I'm not sure why. I kind of used its ability for countering just 1 or 0 costers randomly, almost to just be another annoying card to play around. I was using the guess my disruption strategy, so it's tough to play around. I'm going to be thinking about cutting a Snare and maybe some other creature or another.

[Dante]

It seems that with some decks adding larger creatures, it might run into the same issues as Urbana - their creatures are bigger than your creatures.  I know there's Bouncers, but if they get a big creature (i.e. bigger than 2/2), that turns off half of your draw engine (Ninjas, leaving Gush). 

Might Sower of Temptation be a thought - it's the 2/2 with built-in control magic AND it's a Faerie Wizard, so it can help turn mid- and end-game sprites into hard counters for more than Duress or Brainstorm AND be sacc'd to VMP too.

I think this build will roll to Ichorid - 4 Leyline isn't enough when you can't hardcast them (I ran into it at SCG Indy with the build of urbana you pm'd me), the added pressure of following it up with Needles (on Bazaar) and hardcasting subsequent Leylines and Fow was what it took.  Is it basically more or less a bye for Ichorid then?

[GrandpaBelcher]

How has Sage of Epityr been working out for you?  I tested him a while back in UW Fish and rejected him pretty much on the same basis that made you go to three Brainstorms—sometimes you see crap and just have to shuffle.

If you haven't tried him already, might I suggest Martyr of Frost?  He's a wizard, another situational counterspell, a one-drop for Ninja, and easily overlooked when people are trying to play around your counters.  Plus, you're running 35 blue spells by my count, which means you can support his requirement even better than my deck can.  If not Marty McFrost, maybe Hapless Researcher as yet another Wizard and a card filter?

Still, seems like a neat deck.  I've been thinking about the UR route for a while now, so I'll have to test it.

[ErkBek]

It seems that with some decks adding larger creatures, it might run into the same issues as Urbana - their creatures are bigger than your creatures.  I know there's Bouncers, but if they get a big creature (i.e. bigger than 2/2), that turns off half of your draw engine (Ninjas, leaving Gush). 

Might Sower of Temptation be a thought - it's the 2/2 with built-in control magic AND it's a Faerie Wizard, so it can help turn mid- and end-game sprites into hard counters for more than Duress or Brainstorm AND be sacc'd to VMP too.

The creature control package has been taken right from URBana's (my current list has 3 Bouncers and 1 Truth). I've found URBana's to be perfect as it is vs. the current metagame. Basically, if you opponent plays an early dryad you've got a couple ways to deal (this is how I decibe it for URBana)

1) Counter that shit!
2) Bounce that shit!
3) Find a Bouncer.

Now I know what you're saying, how do I find a bouncer in a deck with 1 tutor and no brainstorms. The answer is play tightly and patiently. You'll need to get a bob out or a ninja going, if ninja isn't able to connect cause they're leaving dryad on defense that's fine, you've got plenty of life and usually a fair amount of time to draw into them. Don't block dryad until your in very lethal range, even with a useless Gorilla Shaman. Start blocking when you're when damage will drop you to 5 or less when you've got a bob out, and 3 or less without a bob.

Control Magic was cut from URBana in conjunction to me figuring this out and bomberman disappearing.

With all that said, this deck has Brainstorms, Gushes, and a number of creatures you can chump with so finding a Bouncer in a time of need should be even easier. However, I will admit early large dudes that resolve scare the wizards and you still lose to them. I don't see adding this guy to the maindeck solving this problem though, since it will still come down to "Do I hit X."

As for the Ichorid matchup. Game 1 is difficult, but very winnable. Yeah, right. This deck punts to ichorid so badly. I'm not wasting more sideboard space to try to improve this matchup. Even if I ran 3 Needles on the board you're going to need luck to beat this deck that hardly sees any play.

How has Sage of Epityr been working out for you?  I tested him a while back in UW Fish and rejected him pretty much on the same basis that made you go to three Brainstorms--sometimes you see crap and just have to shuffle.

If you haven't tried him already, might I suggest Martyr of Frost?  He's a wizard, another situational counterspell, a one-drop for Ninja, and easily overlooked when people are trying to play around your counters.  Plus, you're running 35 blue spells by my count, which means you can support his requirement even better than my deck can.  If not Marty McFrost, maybe Hapless Researcher as yet another Wizard and a card filter?

Still, seems like a neat deck.  I've been thinking about the UR route for a while now, so I'll have to test it.

Sage has been really great. I usually use him to either hit my second land drop or get a strong disruptive card in hand for my turn 2. Even in the topdeck mode this guy is great since he usually sets up a chain of business.

Martyr of Frost is an awesome suggestion. Sometimes I'm just sitting there hiding behind a hand like Snare, Reb, MisD, Blue card, hoping they don't cast Yawg Will. While this deck isn't much about Ninja, it's all about playing annoying little disruptive dudes, which Martyr is exactly. The only real problem with martyr is he is a little mana intensive for the ability and doesn't do much on his own. The problem may turn out to be a timing issue, in that my opponent is likely to try to chain a number of spells to break a lock, causing me to use mana on other things that turn, resulting in being unable to use Martyr. I'm definitely keeping this guy in mind for any future modifications to the list. 

[ErkBek]

So I was doing some thinking about this deck and I realized, a white splash would probably work out better than the Red splash. Meddling Mage seems is a better hoser for decks like Flash and is a great solution to Tinker, Warrens, and Will. Also, I gain STP which will definitely improve any problems that came up vs. resolved creatures. I lose Magus of the Moon, which is fine since I try not to rely on him too much as a hoser. I also lose red blast, which also seems fine since it's duties much overlap with the Sprite's countermagic. The sideboard doesn't really lose much too, but I gain Disenchants for Oath and stax, and a full set of STP's for aggro and shop matchups. I'll have a new list up later today, one with 3 or 4 Meddling Mages and 2-3 STP's in the maindeck.

[And11]

Excuse my not fluent English, I'm a foreigner.

Cool deck. I always loved Voidmage Prodigy, but never found the available wizards sufficient if I wanted a solid mana base also. I mean, Meddling Mage and Dark Confidant are hot, but my mana would suck. With the printing of these utility one drops, it's a different story. Good call!

I always use Misdirection in the type of decks that wants to resolve 1 bomb and practically win the game on the spot (Long and Gifts) OR in a deck that wants to resolve Ancestral Recall asap with protection from oposing pitch magic (GAT). I'm curious to hear your reasoning for its inclusion in this deck. IMO you only have Magus and Ancestral that's worth "forcing" through with Misdirection. Sure, it equals free wins against bad players who blindly put Ancestral on the stack, but against strong players I suspect REB#4 and Spell Snare#4 to perform better. Anyway, fill me in

I can't say I like the sputter. I would opt for more one-drops and play the 4th ninja. If you get ninja online turn 2 and get to untap without losing the game, you're in VERY good shape. The 4th bouncer and Magus are also worth considering. When you face a matchup where they are good, they're freaking good.

The mana base seems okay except I would play fetch #6 over a Volcanic Island. You never need a 3rd Volcanic Island. Vs. Stax you will only fetch red, if you're playing a Magus anyway. I'd say 6 fetches are enough to support Brainstorm #4, as this would set up better turn 2 plays, allow you to dig for answers and can hide "secret" disruption on top of your library when being Duress'ed (I know how you love pretending you're playing ALL available disruption in your deck ) - more often that is.

I realize there's not room for all of these changes unless something is cut. Have you tried without Vials? I'm aware that you can sneak Voidmage and Magus into play, but Vials are just such a bad top deck later on.

Thanks for your post, keep up the good work!

EDIT: I'm not sure I like the white splash, since you lose a hard counter. Hmmm, I'll edit or post a new comment when you put up your list.

[ketchupgun]

Going UW sounds like a crazy good idea.

You also get Aven Mindcensor (a wizard no less) and Stormscape apprentice (who is a wizard as well)...can he replace the bouncers? I wonder. (and to a lesser extent, Azorius Guildmage)

Also..if you go UWB route...then we get Bob....and Duress!

that's alot of useful wizards.

good work kobefan...keep it up.

[GUnit]

Humm... I think if you're ditching magus and you're already playing vials you should consider playing 3 colours for DT, bob, duress/thoughtseize, or even extirpate if you're feeling a little wild... although bob is kinda awful with gush, misd, ninja and force.
Also, I know you like the randomness factor of spellstutter, but almost every time I drew him in testing I was wishing he was another bouncer, sage, ninja or a better counterspell, but maybe I just had awful luck.
Another option is just keeping a bit of red along with the white splash. You'll still be pretty heavy blue, you'll still have a few basics kicking around and gush helps to evade wastes and strips.
I'm going to play around with some alternative lists on MWS later today and I'll post what I come up with. Ever since I started playing competitive vintage, some 6 or 7 years ago, blue +red/white aggro control has been my favourite.

[wiley]

I heartily agree with the white splash, it covers what your disruption package loses with a better one (REB, magus, spree/gargadon out for MM, censor, StP)  i would also certianly think about the apprentice and guildmage already mentioned.  A tapped creature is pretty useless   it seems like your would have more cards that absolutely require an answer.  And without the magus you could bump up an additional fetch land.

An interesting deck indeed.  I look forward to more.

[saradoc]

In the UR versión have you think in Wee Dragonauts? They are faerie wizard, and can hit for a considerable amount of damage. Maybe adding this guys needs to replace the vials for a cheap blue instant like opt or ponder as a sorcery. Maybe quiting some creatures, like the sage or just decreasing its number, could find some room for them. They would also pump spellstutter as a better counter and speed up  decks clock.

[ErkBek]

Wow, thanks for all the replies guys!

A number of you mentioned adding Black for Dark Confidant, as addressed in my initial post, Gushes, MisD's, and FoW's along with not the fastest clock in the world, really could spell some problems. I don't think the deck wants to play 3 colors either, UWr isn't much of an option in my opinion since 3 colors will force you to run at least 1 more land, and cause you to play dual lands instead on basics on turn 1 far more often.

Also, a few of you mentioned losing REB being bad for business since I lose a hard counter, but it's good in that it's a psuedo counter on it's own, often it's even better. 

I always use Misdirection in the type of decks that wants to resolve 1 bomb and practically win the game on the spot (Long and Gifts) OR in a deck that wants to resolve Ancestral Recall asap with protection from oposing pitch magic (GAT). I'm curious to hear your reasoning for its inclusion in this deck. IMO you only have Magus and Ancestral that's worth "forcing" through with Misdirection. Sure, it equals free wins against bad players who blindly put Ancestral on the stack, but against strong players I suspect REB#4 and Spell Snare#4 to perform better. Anyway, fill me in

Good players cast Ancestral as a calculated risk. You can't just sit all day waiting for a Duress to protect it, do so will only allow me bury them further. MisD is largely in the deck to beat good players, since good players know the best way to beat fish is resolve ancestral and ride it. The Faeries do a great job protecting from duresses, which often allows you to have FoW + MisD for when they play a card like Tinker or Yawg Will. Lastly, this deck loves a free counter since its always using up all it's mana.

EDIT: MisD also hits Thoughtseize which is going to be really nice. MisD'g bounce spells and creature kill is often a game winner on the spot.

The mana base seems okay except I would play fetch #6 over a Volcanic Island. You never need a 3rd Volcanic Island. Vs. Stax you will only fetch red, if you're playing a Magus anyway. I'd say 6 fetches are enough to support Brainstorm #4, as this would set up better turn 2 plays, allow you to dig for answers and can hide "secret" disruption on top of your library when being Duress'ed (I know how you love pretending you're playing ALL available disruption in your deck ) - more often that is.

Good call, I love fetchlands. If I run White I'll be running 7 in my 13 land manabase for "The Becker Manabase."

You also get Aven Mindcensor (a wizard no less) and Stormscape apprentice (who is a wizard as well)...can he replace the bouncers? I wonder. (and to a lesser extent, Azorius Guildmage)

Not adding black, but these are awesome additions. Definitely considering them. Mindcensor is a wizard? Sweet!

Also, I know you like the randomness factor of spellstutter, but almost every time I drew him in testing I was wishing he was another bouncer, sage, ninja or a better counterspell, but maybe I just had awful luck.............I'm going to play around with some alternative lists on MWS later today and I'll post what I come up with. Ever since I started playing competitive vintage, some 6 or 7 years ago, blue +red/white aggro control has been my favourite.

Spellstutter has been great for me, but I wouldn't be amazed if it got cut from the deck at some point down the road since it's effect can be a little underwhelming at times. In my testing it teammates, almost every time I had Stutter I got the "Whatever, you always have that card!" response after a while. Keep posting on this thread with your testing results.
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I had some nightmares last night about a old friends casual wizard deck from about 5 years ago that ran Patron Wizard. That card is nothing short of "Fing Annoying." With the change of red to White, I'll be able to run at least 3 more creatures and possibly run an all Wizard creature base (I may even cut my beloved waterfront bouncer). I think that this deck has the right manabase to cast Patron Wizard and he'll still be very useful even without a mana denial plan. I'm going to MWS for a little while and see what I come up with.

[Engine_number_9]

The logic behind cutting the mana denial from Urbana Fish seems solid, since mana denial sucks right now (as noted by you, Vroman and others). However, I can't see the logic behind adding Gush at the expense of black.

Black could add Duress and Dark Confidant. Duress seems too good not to use right now considering the strength of Flash and GAT. Dark Confidant has/was always been the best card draw engine in Urbana Fish. It's way better than Ninja.

You've added Voidmage to the deck. Again a really solid edit. It really helps stop game ending Wills/Tinkers/etc. But why Gush and Voidmage instead of Confidant - a wizard - and Voidmage. By adding Confidant you'll be able to not play Spellstutter - a card that's pretty bad keeping in mind that you play no mana denial and only two Feaeries - and still maintain the high wizard count. 

I do realize that playing both Confidant and Gush is a no go, due to heavy life loss. However, to me, the reasons to add Duress and Confidant and cut Gush are very compelling.

[ErkBek]

The logic behind cutting the mana denial from Urbana Fish seems solid, since mana denial sucks right now (as noted by you, Vroman and others). However, I can't see the logic behind adding Gush at the expense of black.

Black could add Duress and Dark Confidant. Duress seems too good not to use right now considering the strength of Flash and GAT. Dark Confidant has/was always been the best card draw engine in Urbana Fish. It's way better than Ninja.

You've added Voidmage to the deck. Again a really solid edit. It really helps stop game ending Wills/Tinkers/etc. But why Gush and Voidmage instead of Confidant - a wizard - and Voidmage. By adding Confidant you'll be able to not play Spellstutter - a card that's pretty bad keeping in mind that you play no mana denial and only two Feaeries - and still maintain the high wizard count. 

I do realize that playing both Confidant and Gush is a no go, due to heavy life loss. However, to me, the reasons to add Duress and Confidant and cut Gush are very compelling.

This is not URBana fish, nothing like it. If you view this deck as URBana without mana denial, you're going to want to add dark confidant and Duress since they are good in URBana fish. Think of Gush vs. Bob in this way. Gush protects your manabase and it nets you a card for free immediately, Gush is often used on turn 3 as acceleration to, letting you hit 3 mana off 2 lands. Bob makes you tap out turn 2 and doesn't net you a card until 2 turns later.  Since this deck doesn't have all the other good cards that URBana has (Moxen, wastes, Rebs, Duress, Chalice, and daze) you can't play bob nearly as effectively.

Think of your magic deck as a team in your favorite sport, let's say basketball. Let's say Dark Confidant = Kobe Bryant. You can't just put Kobe on any team and expect them to do better. For example, Kobe Bryant on the Utah Jazz.....that's just not going to work. However, if you put him on the Suns with teammates like Steve Nash (Waterfront Bouncer), Amare Stoudemire (Duress), and Shawn Marion (Force of Will) you've got a winning combination. URBana fish is more like the Pistons....I don't know where I'm going with this....good sports teams have players that work well together. In magic, your deck is your team's roster. They call it Chemistry in sports, we call it synergy in magic.

[Sextiger]

That's a really good analogy of Dark Confidant.  He is a great card but he greatly restricts what cards can be run in a deck.  Even running just Force of Will as the only high CC card in a deck has often lead to people dying to their own draws.  Right now seems to be a terrible time to run Dark Confidant due to the very aggroish nature of the format right now.  Your life total is more important than ever these days. 

[wiley]

Sounds like Vroman posted something from work, wonder if he sent the client a post on this deck?

Back on topic, I don't believe duress, thoughtsieze and dark confidant are necessary to the deck, indeed the third color would severely diminish the viability of this decks main goals: to prevent the opponent from ever being able to cast an important spell using utility creatures that can attack while preforming their duties.

Dark confidant is a great engine, no doubt.  However, when you run 4 gush, 4 FoW, and multiples of MisD it becomes a very risky card.  And to destabalize the mana base for a risky card plus the ability to "proactively counter" a few possibly key cards is not a very winning option from my point of view.

So we look at what else black could bring us: Tutors and creature kill.  If we switch to white from red then we have even better creature kill that black could offer us in StP (cruel and imperial edict would be the only ones with and edge over StP and they are too slow to make a difference when the GAT player just takes two extra turns to beat your face in).  In the form of tutors we are somewhat lacking but with gush and ancestral powering out the draws and the sage stacking the deck and brainstorm playing the middle ground of both, the chances of getting totally hose of a viable threat are greatly diminished.  To look at the only other card we would really want to run black for, yawg will, we would look through the deck and see if there are any truley broken plays to be made off it that would instantly win the game and therefore be a reason to splash a third color.  Personally I do not see one, but my experience with yawg decks is not nearly as vast as some of the players on this board so I might be mistaken.

So my thoughts would be at most running one Underground sea to be fetched and nothing more.

I look forward to a model of both the UW build and match up data for the UR list.

[vroman]

wiley is correct. thats what I get for reading TMD at work. I was writing a reply to this thread at same time I wrote that property report, and obv pasted the wrong thing in. unfortunately I didnt save my reply, but fortunately I did email the right thing to my boss. sorry for the confusion.

[GUnit]

Haha, Vroman. It would have been hilarious if you'd written your boss a long email about U/r gush fish's position in the current meta...

I'm home for thanksgiving right now and this is the list I'll be testing on MWS if I get my family's computer working properly:

Mana/Accel 19
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Lotus
3 Tundra
4 Island
6 Fetchlands
3 Aether Vial

Disruption Spells 14
4 FoW
3 MisD
2 Mana Drain
3 Spell Snare
1 Echoing Truth
1 Swords to Plowshares

Draw Engine 10
1 Ancestral
1 Walk
4 Brainstorm
4 Gush

Creatures 17
4 Voidmage Prodigy
3 Ninja of the Deep Hours
4 Meddling Mage
3 Stormscape Apprentice
3 Aven Mindcensor

Logic behind my (until very soon) untested changes, which no doubt will be altered somewhat in the near future:

- The first thing is that 14 of the 17 creatures in this version are both disruptive and of the creature type wizard. The ninjas aren't disruptive themselves, but obviously they draw you more threats.

-mages were an obvious inclusion, as was the swap of magus for mindcensor

-I love bouncers, especially given the number of fish mirrors I end up playing on MWS, but I had to cut them. I knew I needed mages if I was going to try a white list, so that ate up four two-drops on the roster, and I cut the sages, which have a nice ability turn 1, but then become less impressive as the game goes on (ninja'ing them was fun though). Not playing any one-drops wasn't appealing to me and the fact that stormscape apprentice is a wizard made my choice easy; out with bouncers in with apprentices.

- I slipped a fourth brainstorm into the list as well as a 6th fetch, but given that magus of the moon is no longer a factor I simply cut an island for the fetch. These changes should serve to balance the consistency loss from cutting sages.

- Mana drain: this I'm not so sure about. I wanted another hard counter in the stead of rebs and I figured the mana could always be used to actually cast (*gasp*) one of gush or ninja, or to drop a mainphase mindcensor. This could easily be counterspell or mana leak. I'm even tempted to try counterbalance in this deck. Counterbalance and voidmage is a pretty intimidating board to deal with.

- single StP: I guess there could be more, but I couldn't find the space and it isn't always amazing. You already have echoing truth and stormscape to deal with resolved dudes.


It pains me to post a white fish deck without jotun grunt, but I'm just not sure how well he fits the mould. If he was subbing in he'd probably be replacing ninjas, but I'm uncomfortable with relying solely on BS and gush to keep me from sitting in topdeck mode. Grunt is an excellent SB option to replace ninja is creature-y matchups, though.

[hauntedechos]

Eric,

I've always aplauded your efforts with Fish based ideas.  I think that URBana is masterfull, even though I play UWB.  I have no doubt that with adjustments, you will find that comfort zone with this deck.  I was thinking about Orloves tournament win with Worse than Fish, and wanted to ask you, have you thought about a rise in this WTF? if so, how is your matchup.  I'm certainly NOT saying that WTF is going to shake things up, but I was wondering how or if you have even tested this matchup?

cheers
mike

[ErkBek]

Haha, Vroman. It would have been hilarious if you'd written your boss a long email about U/r gush fish's position in the current meta...

I thought it was some metaphor or something. It crossed my mind it could be work stuff, but it seemed like a cheap shot. lol

Eric,

I've always aplauded your efforts with Fish based ideas.  I think that URBana is masterfull, even though I play UWB.  I have no doubt that with adjustments, you will find that comfort zone with this deck.  I was thinking about Orloves tournament win with Worse than Fish, and wanted to ask you, have you thought about a rise in this WTF? if so, how is your matchup.  I'm certainly NOT saying that WTF is going to shake things up, but I was wondering how or if you have even tested this matchup?

cheers
mike

In all my years of playing magic, I've only played against WTF once. I've never played the deck either, I just don't like it in theory. For example, 2/2 vanilla fliers, mongels, and Rootwallas are all creatures that just get in there for damage. They don't draw cards or do disrupt your opponent. I see the synergy there and fast clock no doubt, just never saw a reason to play it.

[Engine_number_9]

This is not URBana fish, nothing like it.....

Think of your magic deck as a team in your favorite sport, let's say basketball. Let's say Dark Confidant = Kobe Bryant. You can't just put Kobe on any team and expect them to do better. For example, Kobe Bryant on the Utah Jazz.....that's just not going to work. However, if you put him on the Suns with teammates like Steve Nash (Waterfront Bouncer), Amare Stoudemire (Duress), and Shawn Marion (Force of Will) you've got a winning combination. URBana fish is more like the Pistons....I don't know where I'm going with this....good sports teams have players that work well together. In magic, your deck is your team's roster. They call it Chemistry in sports, we call it synergy in magic.

It's quite clear that this is not an Urbana fish list. But that should'nt rule out a comparison between this decklist and an Urbana fish list. Comparing two deck lists is a perfectly viable way of analyzing their card choices, stragtegies etc. In many ways the UR fish deck looks a lot like Urbana Fish. In fact, I think, that it resembles Urbana Fish more than any other deck out there rigth now. Kobe Bryant may not be good on the Utah Jazz team. But this could tell me more about Utah Jazz, than just the obvious fact that Utah Jazz is not the same team as the Suns.

I'll try to make my argument more clear. From my point of view - the Urbana fish point of view - I don't see why cutting strips and stifles from Urbana and adding Voidmage does'nt make an even better deck, than the UR list you've posted.

And why is this relevant in this thread? Why is this not posted in the Urbana fish thread? Because in order for you to persuade me or anyone else into thinking that UR Fish is the new Kobe Bryant of vintage magic (my knowledge of basketball is very limited), I'll need to know why UR fish does something better than any other decklist out there - especially why it does something better than a stripless version of Urbana Fish, because they look so much alike.

If this is too OT, I apologize.

[ErkBek]

It's quite clear that this is not an Urbana fish list. But that should'nt rule out a comparison between this decklist and an Urbana fish list. Comparing two deck lists is a perfectly viable way of analyzing their card choices, stragtegies etc. In many ways the UR fish deck looks a lot like Urbana Fish. In fact, I think, that it resembles Urbana Fish more than any other deck out there rigth now. Kobe Bryant may not be good on the Utah Jazz team. But this could tell me more about Utah Jazz, than just the obvious fact that Utah Jazz is not the same team as the Suns.

I'll try to make my argument more clear. From my point of view - the Urbana fish point of view - I don't see why cutting strips and stifles from Urbana and adding Voidmage does'nt make an even better deck, than the UR list you've posted.

And why is this relevant in this thread? Why is this not posted in the Urbana fish thread? Because in order for you to persuade me or anyone else into thinking that UR Fish is the new Kobe Bryant of vintage magic (my knowledge of basketball is very limited), I'll need to know why UR fish does something better than any other decklist out there - especially why it does something better than a stripless version of Urbana Fish, because they look so much alike.

If this is too OT, I apologize.

note: Please do not make any comments about why you should play this over such and such deck. I’d rather not restate it over and over. Gush lets you play a very mana light deck effectively, making room for a  high amount of disruptive spells and creatures.

I don't know what else to say. This deck is still developing and I never claimed it to be better than URBana, just a new take on fish with lots of different synergies. I've opted to play White over red now, so the decks aren't even remotely the same anymore. I've even cut Ninja.

Anyways, I've promised you guys my list with White. Here's what I'm rolling with now.

Mana/Accel 19
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Lotus
3 Tundra
4 Island
7 Fetchlands
3 Aether Vial

Disruption Spells 13
4 FoW
4 MisD
3 STP
2 Envelop (Still testing this slot)

Draw Engine 10
1 Ancestral
1 Walk
4 Brainstorm
4 Gush

Creatures 19
(1 drops)
3 Stormscape Apprentice*
3 Sage of Epityr*
(2 drops)
4 Voidmage Prodigy*
4 Meddling Mage*
3 SpellStutter Sprite*
(3/4 mana dudes)
1 Patron Wizard*
1 Aven Mindcensor

14 islands seems perfect with Vial, Sage, Gush, and Brainstorm. LOA was played and sucked. 3 Vials seem perfect. Usually getting one FoW'd isn't a big deal, just sorta annoying. If they don't FoW this though, all your disruptive creatures just became even better, especially Faeries. If I were to make a space for a 4th, I'd cut the Lotus for it.

The 1 of Patron Wizard and Mindcensor are sort of spots being tested (so are the Envelops). Patron Wizard has locked up a couple games and just served as a 2/2 in others. Playing this guy on turn 3 with counter backup when you've got 2 wizards out already just doesn't feel fair. The Mindcensor hasn't been cast yet, it's sucked both times I drew it (but I was playing vs. shops). I'm going to keep the 1/1 mix for now and see how it goes.

Ninja has just proven terrible tempo and usually draws more cards that I can't play since I spent all my mana on turns 1 and 2 establishing this guy. I thought that'd be fine since it works well in URBana fish with Gorilla shamans, but my favorite creature of all time just isn't getting it done in here. Even a turn 1 Sage, Turn 2 Ninja isn't the most impressive start. The deck's draw engine of Gush, Brainstorm, and Ancestral (whether stolen or yours) is working out just fine. I'm considering trying to fit in that 4th Brainstorm, however Brainstorm isn't the OMG nuts in this deck since you can't really brainstorm into a bunch of broken cards. Also, without waterfront bouncer and instead his apprentice you're not as hungry for cards.

4 Misdirections have been awesome. Now that thoughtseize is in the format this card has become even more valuable. MisD always has very relevant targets (in non shop matches), even if it's just protecting your STP, Meddling Mage, or Voidmage. A number of decks can't afford to play more than 6 or 7 pitch counters without wearing themselves out of cards, this deck could run 10 or more. Disrupting Shoal was considered for about 10 seconds, then I remembered that it sucks.

3 STP's. <3 STP. With 4 MisD's I always win the counterwars with these. I'd consider a 4th over an Envelop since STP is great in some of my worse matchups like Shop aggro, Teeg decks, and Goblins. Actually, I'd recommend 4 STP, 1 Envelop. I'm going to keep testing 2 Envelops for the time though.

4 Meddling Mage. I used to think of UW fish as Meddling Mage.dec. Well, this deck was fine without it and even with it.

I've been crushing GAT and Empty Gifts all day with this list (or something very close to it). The deck really puts up a fight in every single matchup even stax! Also, this deck has finally convinced me that Gush needs to be re-restricted. The format has truly become Gush decks and decks that hate Gush decks. This deck seems to get the best of both worlds, it's a Gush Hating deck running Gush, but it isn't hit very hard by much of the hate others use. Every single deck I've built in the past few weeks (and there has been a lot) all either run Gush or run Thorn of Amthyst to hate them.

[Prometheon]

Envelop? Really?

Envelop was great when there was a ton of Long around, as it countered Grim Tutor for 1 mana, but in today's meta I would imagine Spell Snare to be a better choice. What sorceries are you hellbent on stopping?

[ErkBek]

Envelop? Really?

Envelop was great when there was a ton of Long around, as it countered Grim Tutor for 1 mana, but in today's meta I would imagine Spell Snare to be a better choice. What sorceries are you hellbent on stopping?

Merchant Scroll, Regrowth, Demonic, duress, Thoughtseize, Tinker, Yawg will, Balance

Spellsnare overlaps with what I'm already hating. I want answers to big spells.

[madmanmike25]

First off, please change the subject heading or put this in the improvement forum if you aren't sure which way to go with the deck.

This thread is a good read.  This is a good example of why TMD forums > SSG forums.  You have been given lots of good advice, hopefully I will not break that chain...

I'm confused, you say this thread is great and why TMD is great, but you suggest it be moved to the improvement forum where no one will ever read it? Unlike most threads in the improvement forum this deck has been developed with a lot of theory and presented in a very legible manner by an adept (not to toot my own horn here). I've gone far out of my way to make this thread good, in fact I considered just developing the deck on my own on the GWS forums. If this thread were to get moved to the improvement forum the quality from other posters would go down and I would not bother trying to develop a deck in public forums again. As for the a new title, I'll get on that soon and edit my initial post.

-Eric

4 Misdirections?  Whoa.  When you combine that with your 2 Envelops you almost guarantee an even worse matchup against Stax, Goblins, and Ichorid to name a few.  Let's not get pitch happy.  Could you take it down a notch, or better yet probably 2 notches?

Mana/Accel 19
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Lotus
3 Tundra
4 Island
7 Fetchlands
3 Aether Vial

[niptick]
I have an issue with this.  Aether Vial is NOT a mana source.  What happens when you have 2 Vials and 5 other cards in your hand?  That's called a mulligan.  In reality you have 16 mana sources and that is exceptionally low, even for Gush.dec.

Aether Vial is NOT acceleration per se.  What it does is somewhat mitigates the fact that you have to return 2 islands to cast Gush.  At turn 3, you can put a 2cc creature into play....that's not any faster.  Vial is more of a utility slot, and becomes more useful when playing with 3 colors, more moxen, or Wastelands.  I apologize for the semantic complaint, but I just had to get that out of my system.[/nitpick]

When I tested Aether VILE, I was satisfied with only 2 copies for these simple reasons:

1.  You really don't need 2 in play.
2.  Sometimes you don't even need one in play.
3.  They are horrible topdecks.  Horrible.

If they FoW a first turn Vial?  Great!  Then Vial acts like a Duress + one.

Conclusion:  Cut one Vial for Mox Pearl.

Also, consider Kataki to help beat and against Stax(without Vials of course) and Jotun Grunt as well.

Good luck with the deck.  I know how many paths there are too consider, choose wisely.
Mike

EDIT:  How did Ninja'ing Sage of Epityr and then recasting Sage work for you?

[ErkBek]

4 Misdirections?  Whoa.  When you combine that with your 2 Envelops you almost guarantee an even worse matchup against Stax, Goblins, and Ichorid to name a few.  Let's not get pitch happy.  Could you take it down a notch, or better yet probably 2 notches?

These matchups really aren't as bad as you think. I've gone about 40-60 for game ones vs. stax. I really don't feel that I should devote much of my maindeck towards beating stax, ichorid, and goblings when in reality they only comprises about 20% of the metagame. Instead I've focused my maindeck towards beating the other 80% of the metagame. Big deal I've got some dead cards. What would you recommend? More creautres seems like a bad idea. Maindeck annul or disenchant does too. Bounce spells don't get it done without mana denial or a combo finish.

[niptick]
I have an issue with this.  Aether Vial is NOT a mana source.  What happens when you have 2 Vials and 5 other cards in your hand?  That's called a mulligan.  In reality you have 16 mana sources and that is exceptionally low, even for Gush.dec.

Aether Vial is NOT acceleration per se.  What it does is somewhat mitigates the fact that you have to return 2 islands to cast Gush.  At turn 3, you can put a 2cc creature into play....that's not any faster.  Vial is more of a utility slot, and becomes more useful when playing with 3 colors, more moxen, or Wastelands.  I apologize for the semantic complaint, but I just had to get that out of my system.[/nitpick]

When I tested Aether VILE, I was satisfied with only 2 copies for these simple reasons:

1.  You really don't need 2 in play.
2.  Sometimes you don't even need one in play.
3.  They are horrible topdecks.  Horrible.

If they FoW a first turn Vial?  Great!  Then Vial acts like a Duress + one.

Conclusion:  Cut one Vial for Mox Pearl.

So Dark Ritual isn't a mana source b/c if you draw 2 you can't play either? Vial is acceleration, just it's delayed acceleration. It accelerates you game 2 turns from being played, into a full speed deck. I've presented the mana in that way so people don't freak out when they see it. I've heavily criticized people for running 19 mana sources in fish before (no vials either). My deck is different though, it's only 2 colors and usually plays a basic island on turn 1. I don't run waste either.

I played Mox pearl for a good 15 games and was very underwhelmed. Pearl only cast STP, Meddling Mage, and sprite that's it!

Also, consider Kataki to help beat and against Stax(without Vials of course) and Jotun Grunt as well.

Kataki, pain in the ass is definitely going on the sideboard. Good idea.

EDIT:  How did Ninja'ing Sage of Epityr and then recasting Sage work for you?

Surprisingly not so good. Like it seems like you'd be hooked up at this point, but let's imagine you're playing vs. Empty Gifts. So you've got your draw engine established on turn 2, but they're playing a deck that can really do broken things usually around turn 3. I'd expect them to duress my hand and set up the turn 4 win (unless they've found a fastbond, in which they go for it now). So then they'll likely either drain my next threat or Reb my ninja. See what I'm getting at? It's going to go down hill really fast. Ninja also gets blocked off by other aggro decks and shop decks usually pretty quickly too. In URBana things are totally different though. You ninja out a gorilla shaman, and draw Reb's, Duresses, or wastes, not disruptive creatures that need to be cast in your main phase, you draw disruptive spells that will stop them from winning on turn 3 or 4. It's a huge difference.

Ideal starts go something like:

Turn 1: Vial or guy
Turn 2: Meddling Mage or Voidmage

Also, though some hands are very acceptable even if they are like BS, FoW, MisD, 2 land, Gush Voidmage.

-----------------------------------

This deck is much much better as a UW deck and I think it's going to be good for a while. Because I'm terrible at naming decks, I'm looking for suggestions other than Happy Wizards. I like the name "WU Tang Wizards" since this isn't fish at all, yet it pays respect to the fish decks that came before it (see Jason Zeng's WU tang fish). Anyone got a better name?

[GUnit]

I prefer disrupt and spell snare to envelop because they seem more tempo-y for the first few turns of the game, during which time the only targets for envelop are scrolls, really... barring lots of brokenness. Envelop is a much safer draw once you get to the stage in the game where your opponent is looking to tinker/will to dig himself out the hole you've been trying to bury him in, but hopefully by that point you have a mage or a voidmage sitting on the board to keep that from happening anyway.

Spell snare is better against a wider variety of decks than disrupt, and stronger against opponents who may already be playing around daze, so it would probably be my choice for that slot.

I guess, though, according to the gameplan you posted above, you're planning on tapping out turn 1 and 2 typically, so I'm not sure how much you care about the effect of those cards on early game tempo.

EDIT: I'm also still underwhelmed by the sprite... but I've been having really bad luck in magic today in general.

[madmanmike25]

I've gone far out of my way to make this thread good

Well, mission accomplished.  I wasn't trying to confuse you, I just wanted the thread to be more linear and focused.  I'm glad you opted to change the name over moving this to the improvement forum.  Let's keep going with W/U then, shall we?

These matchups really aren't as bad as you think. I've gone about 40-60 for game ones vs. stax.  I really don't feel that I should devote much of my maindeck towards beating stax, ichorid, and goblings when in reality they only comprises about 20% of the metagame.

Hmm, I don't have a crystal ball but there are 2 reasons that I personally believe we will be seeing more Stax/Shop decks.

1.  Thorn of Amethyst
2.  Gush decks being prevalent and Stax having a fair matchup against Gush decks.

I'm not talking about 'Staxless Stax' either.  We will have to wait and see I guess.

Also, I think we will be seeing more hate.dec around as well.  I can easily imagine Magus of the Moon and Thorn going in the same deck.

Instead I've focused my maindeck towards beating the other 80% of the metagame. Big deal I've got some dead cards. What would you recommend?

If other Misdirections, FoW's and Gush are what you expect to play against 80% of the time then try running 1-2 copies of Nix.  A 2/2 MisD/Nix combo doesn't seem too terrible on paper.

So Dark Ritual isn't a mana source b/c if you draw 2 you can't play either?

I'm not really going to get into Vial vs. Dark Ritual, but I will reiterate the fact that you cannot play EITHER without a real mana source....and I still think 16 sources is too low.  But if you can make it work, thats cool with me.  I'll take your word for it.

I played Mox pearl for a good 15 games and was very underwhelmed. Pearl only cast STP, Meddling Mage, and sprite that's it!

Not to mention Vial(remember I only recommended cutting 1), or Aven Mindcensor.....or even ACTIVATING your Stormscape, or enabling a first turn Time Walk.  Honestly I think 4 Meddling Mages is almost reason enough to run the Pearl.  Is it really that difficult to add one more mana source to bring you up to 17?  I really meant it when I say I tested Vials and found 2 satisfactory in a deck similar to this.  Keep testing and play with what you want.

Here is an interesting card you may want to consider:

Mistblade Shinobi.  He's not a wizard, but it's faster than the Waterfront Bouncer you had previously.  He also works well with Ninja.  Just a thought, it might be useful against GAT seeing as how almost everyone plays it.

As for a deck name WU Tang Wizards is decent enough.  Just pray that someone doesn't build a Shaolin Wizards deck, that would be a bad matchup for you.


Hope any of that helps you.

[ErkBek]

EDIT: I'm also still underwhelmed by the sprite... but I've been having really bad luck in magic today in general.

I've really found sprite useful around turn 4 to counter things like Duress, Red Blast, or Brainstorm. Occasionally I've got not targets for it can just EOT cast it, but about 70% of the time I can find a target. With Voidmage, this can spell the final piece in the lock.

If other Misdirections, FoW's and Gush are what you expect to play against 80% of the time then try running 1-2 copies of Nix.  A 2/2 MisD/Nix combo doesn't seem too terrible on paper.

This deck really isn't hurt that much by running all the pitch magic. As stated earlier in this thread MisD does a lot more than just steal ancestral and resolve your wizards.

Not to mention Vial(remember I only recommended cutting 1), or Aven Mindcensor.....or even ACTIVATING your Stormscape, or enabling a first turn Time Walk.  Honestly I think 4 Meddling Mages is almost reason enough to run the Pearl.  Is it really that difficult to add one more mana source to bring you up to 17?  I really meant it when I say I tested Vials and found 2 satisfactory in a deck similar to this.  Keep testing and play with what you want.

I find it interesting that you are so concerned with the stax matchup but you're recommending cutting an aether vial for a mox pearl. Doesn't that seem a little counterintuitive?

I agree stax should in theory pick up. In theory though, URBana fish should have picked up a long time ago as a top deck. And in theory aggro strategies like goblins, RG aggro, and zoo should have too. Anyone here who's played the Goblins vs. Gush matchup knows what I'm talking about. It's no fluke though that the one Midwesterner running RG aggro has won a Walk and a finished 10th at SCG Indy.

All that said yeah, stax will likely pick up. Thorn is awesome.

-------------------------------------

I was up until the wee hours of the night coming up with a sideboard and plan. Right now I've got a bunch of 2-of's since they're harder to play around and have splash damage against other decks. The other reason for the 2-of board is I get to test a bunch of different cards and see if I like them. Here's what I've got for now. (I'm running the maindeck listed -2 Envelop +1 STP, +1 Mindcensor).

4 Leyline
2 Jitte
2 Echoing Truth
2 Disenchant
2 Kataki
2 Energy Flux
1 Plains

GAT
same as maindeck

Empty Gifts (if they run Meloku you might want to leave in another STP and take out something else)
-2 STP
+2 Echoing Truth

Stax
-4 MisD
-3 Sprite
-1 Stormscape Apprentice
-1 Patron Wizard
-2 Mindcensor 
+3 Leyline
+2 Disenchant
+2 Flux
+2 Kataki
+1 Plains

Shop Aggro
-4 MisD
-2 Sprite
-1 Patron Wizard
-2 Mindcensor
+2 Disenchant
+2 Flux
+2 Kataki
+2 Jitte
+1 Plains
(space for 1 more card)

Fish Mirrors
+2 Jitte
+2 Disenchant / Needle
-2 Aven Mindcensor
-1 Patron Wizard
-1 FoW or Sprite (MisD is better in aggro mirrors

I'd really appreciate some help testing this board. I've played tons of game 1's here's how they favor out:

GAT: Very Favorable
Empty Gifts: Favorable
Fish mirrors: Favorable
Flash: Favorable
Stax: Unfavorable
Shop Aggro: Unfavorable
Ichorid: obv unfavorable

That's some pretty decent matchups if you ask me. This deck is good.