WU Tang Wizards (formerly UR Fish 2K7)

[Dante]

Ritual combo? (gush or general grim/pitch long)

Hello, and welcome to The Mana Drain. Your post is in violation of rule 1 (writing skills) and rule 4 (lack of content). Please read the site rules before posting further. Thanks from those that care about adding content to this site.
 
-Eric Becker, Vintage Adept

[The Demon]

Landstill? (UR and UW)

This is not Legacy. plz k thx

-Eric Becker, Vintage Adept

[Pave]

You probably don't need anymore draw, but if you want a little more - and another tool in the Fish/aggro mirror - test Sky Hussar.  He's so fun!  If you're not desperate to bash down and more interested in taking control via Voidmage, tapping down two dudes is not overly problematic.  And he comes down late after drawing a heap for an alpha strike.

This deck plays a meager 16 mana sources and accelerating out a Hussar is not the game plan I'm going for.

-Eric Becker, Vintage Adept

Response: I presented the Hussar as primarily a perhaps unneeded but nonetheless interesting option for further draw, not beats.

[Duncan]

Landstill? (UR and UW)

This is not Legacy. plz k thx

-Eric Becker, Vintage Adept

UR landstill has made some t8 finishes lately:

http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=655&highlight=Standstill
http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=654&highlight=Standstill
http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=638&highlight=Standstill
http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=637&highlight=Standstill

Maybe you can give an analysis and boarding plans for that matchup?

[Prometheon]

Landstill is 100% tournament viable in today's meta, and is most likely a bad matchup for your deck, but as no one plays it, I wouldn't worry too much about it. You're already deciding to lose to Ichorid in favor of strengthening more prevalent matchups, and I think Landstill is a fair deck to "just lose too" as well.

(And with that said, who knows? Maybe your build is GG against Landstill. I know I've never tested it!)

[Kowal]

A quick note to nobody in particular:
This thread started off very strong, got some reasonable feedback, and kobefan has been very good about monitoring the discussion.  Page two is a train wreck.  I'd like to pretend the only posts on this entire page belong to Duncan and Prometheon.  The self-moderation also leaves quite a bit to be desired.  Please try to keep the quality up and the sarcasm down.

[Dante]

Ritual combo? (gush or general grim/pitch long)

Hello, and welcome to The Mana Drain. Your post is in violation of rule 1 (writing skills) and rule 4 (lack of content). Please read the site rules before posting further. Thanks from those that care about adding content to this site.
 
-Eric Becker, Vintage Adept

I was asking about the matchup against Ritual combo - you posted some game one favorable/unfavorable matchups and I was curious where you saw your ritual-based combo matchup, especially since one Top 8'd at SCG Indy.

As a learn-by-example example, my first post is a good example of "wait until you have enough time to spit out your whole thought don't just post crap in 20 seconds. - Dante

[ErkBek]

I was asking about the matchup against Ritual combo - you posted some game one favorable/unfavorable matchups and I was curious where you saw your ritual-based combo matchup, especially since one Top 8'd at SCG Indy.

Rituals have really fallen out of the metagame to the point where I consider them dead, thus I haven't addressed the matchup with my sideboard. I haven't played the matchup, but the matchup seems decent since Meddling Mage and Voidmage Prodigy can really seal the deal. Naming Tendrils with Mage would probably be the best call since by the time they can muster up a way to deal, you've likely dropped enough other disruption that winning is a formality (ie more meddling mages, VMP, Sprites, or FoW/MisD). Leylines should probably come in on the draw but not on the play since your disruption isn't typically fast enough on the draw (fore example, a turn 2 VMP probably is going to be too slow.

If your metagame has lots of rituals you definitely need to consider Orim's Chant for the sideboard.

EDIT: I'd definitely board Echoing Truth vs. Storm decks do deal with Warrens and potentially Tinker->Large Man. Also, don't trick yourself into boarding in kataki as the upkeep costs will likely be really annoying for you and potentially something they can pay with a sol ring or mana crypt or play upkeep bombs. You don't want to bother yourself paying an upkeep cost on your aether vials disabling you from effectively using VMP and casting more theats.

You've got 4 easy cuts in STP as Stormscape Apprentice can pull double duty on large tinker targets.

[cheddercaveman]

I know that this guy is a little bit expensive, but have you tried out Grand Aribiter Augustin IV maybe as a one of?  I was playing with if for a while in a bomberman list and he's pretty insane against anything thats playing lots of spells and it only helps you out.  With the shift to U/W we have the colors, but it does cost 4 and unfortunately it feels like a wizard, but its an advisor.  On the positive it does still pitch to FoW and Mis-D.

In case anyone isnt familiar ...

Grand Arbiter Augustin IV   
Legendary Creature - Human Advisor
White spells you play cost  less to play.
Blue spells you play cost  less to play.
Spells your opponents play cost  more to play.
2/3

On sideboarding, is the only option for ichorid hate these days hoping to mull into a leyline?  We have no black so its a dead card if we dont mull into it, which feels bad, but there might not be any better option.  If I thought we could get it out there soon enough something like propaganda would do the job, but we'd have to hope for a mox or lotus for it to be viable from what I remember.  Also, I know that leyline stops flash too, but so does most of the rest of the deck I think, so I'm not sure thats an issue either.

[Duncan]

Why do you board in disenchant against all sorts of fish? I can see why you want them against sideboarded jittes, but only about half the fish decks out there play jitte, you've got jittes of your own to destroy theirs and you've got counters. In testing i often hated drawing disenchant.

I prefer boarding in the two echoing truths instead, to do game winning combat tricks.

Another point I have: why disenchant over seal of cleansing? Most of the time it doesnt matter, but i feel like they are superior in the landstill matchup.

For now all I have left to say is that I really like the deck! Wizards ftw. One game I started Lotus island Patron Wizard Sage of epityr, he never got in the game!

[ErkBek]

I know that this guy is a little bit expensive, but have you tried out Grand Aribiter Augustin IV maybe as a one of?  I was playing with if for a while in a bomberman list and he's pretty insane against anything thats playing lots of spells and it only helps you out.  With the shift to U/W we have the colors, but it does cost 4 and unfortunately it feels like a wizard, but its an advisor.  On the positive it does still pitch to FoW and Mis-D.

Grand Arbiter Augustin IV   

On sideboarding, is the only option for ichorid hate these days hoping to mull into a leyline?  We have no black so its a dead card if we dont mull into it, which feels bad, but there might not be any better option.  If I thought we could get it out there soon enough something like propaganda would do the job, but we'd have to hope for a mox or lotus for it to be viable from what I remember.  Also, I know that leyline stops flash too, but so does most of the rest of the deck I think, so I'm not sure thats an issue either.

Grand Arbiter works in bomberman better since you've got all the moxen to excel him out. In this deck hitting 4 mana isn't something that happens every game. Without the acceleration and no mana denial what so ever, I really don't see this guy working better than parton wizard.

As for the Ichorid matchup. If you expect a fair amount of it, you'll want to be boarding Needles over disenchant. Even then, I don't know if that's remotely close enough to have a shot of winning. Ichorid makes up a very small percentage of the metagame and I wouldn't stress devoting too much sideboard space to it for that reason. Remember that Ichorid will be boarding in Leyline removal, which pulls double duty on hitting propoganda. So yeah, this is going to be an ugly matchup unless I devote a ton more sideboard space to it. So the board plan is to just mull to Leyline and hopefully get something to protect it.

Why do you board in disenchant against all sorts of fish? I can see why you want them against sideboarded jittes, but only about half the fish decks out there play jitte, you've got jittes of your own to destroy theirs and you've got counters. In testing i often hated drawing disenchant.

I prefer boarding in the two echoing truths instead, to do game winning combat tricks.

Another point I have: why disenchant over seal of cleansing? Most of the time it doesnt matter, but i feel like they are superior in the landstill matchup

I've been sorta mixed on boarding Disenchant vs. Fish myself. If they run factories and/or vials, disenchant will certainly be coming in, but if they've just got Jitte's coming in I think I'll be leaving them on the board. Disenchant is far less useful when you can't use it on a mox in conjunction with wasteland to knock an opponent out of the game. I think me always boarding in artifact removal is just habit in fish mirrors now days. It goes all the way back to me losing in a top 8 UR fish mirror about 4 years ago to Sword F/I and Crucible. Brian Fisher, who was sorta my 'mentor,' told me I've got to be boarding them in to win the sideboard war. It's been working ever since.

The real problem in the fish mirror has seemed to be if my opponent can stick a turn 1 or 2 bob and I don't have STP for it. Bob ends up netting them a bunch of cards and it's really frustrating to watch them ride their turn 1 play the entire game to victory. Bouncing Bob ASAP with echoing truth and naming it with a MM seems like a nice swing that's very doable to pull off.

Disenchant over Seal is b/c I feel it's better in the fish matchup.....so take what you can from that.....if you like Seal over Disenchant go with it. I'll think if Seal would be better every time I draw it now to 'test' Seal over disenchant.

For now all I have left to say is that I really like the deck! Wizards ftw. One game I started Lotus island Patron Wizard Sage of epityr, he never got in the game!

HAHA. I had the exact same start one game.....my opponent wasn't pleased. He had to read patron wizard and then scooped after his second turn.

[meadbert]

A friend of mine plays a U/W Wizards deck.  It turns out that Trinket Mage and Patron Wizard are actually a fairly broken combo.

He used a full set of moxes and Leaks.  A common start would be something like.

Turn 1 Island, Mox (Mana Leak something)
Turn 2: Land, Trinket Mage (grabbing Black Lotus), Black Lotus, Patron Wizard.

From there your opponent cannot catch up.

Also Trinket Mage is useful for removal as it fetches Explosives, Aether Spellbomb and Pithing Needle.

[cheddercaveman]

So Becker, I'm loving the deck so far.  Just doing some goldfishing so far and I like it.  I do agree with you on the Grand Arbiter now, 4 mana is pushing it since gush sets us back a bit sometimes w/out fastbond.  There is one thing I noticed, the deck you posted before is 61 cards.  You said you were playing +1 StP and +1 Aven Mindcensor -2 Envelop in the main.  So I cut the extra StP.  I'm gonna try to get in some playtesting this week with a couple of guys.

[ErkBek]

So Becker, I'm loving the deck so far.  Just doing some goldfishing so far and I like it.  I do agree with you on the Grand Arbiter now, 4 mana is pushing it since gush sets us back a bit sometimes w/out fastbond.  There is one thing I noticed, the deck you posted before is 61 cards.  You said you were playing +1 StP and +1 Aven Mindcensor -2 Envelop in the main.  So I cut the extra StP.  I'm gonna try to get in some playtesting this week with a couple of guys.

I originally had listed only 3 Brainstorms, then a looked over the post the other day and only counted 59 cards, so I filled out that last space with another Brainstorm. Anyways, here's what I'm running now days:

// Lands
    4  Flooded Strand
    3  Polluted Delta
    3  Tundra
    4  Island

// Creatures
    3  Spellstutter Sprite
    4  Meddling Mage
    4  Voidmage Prodigy
    3  Sage of Epityr
    2  Aven Mindcensor
    1  Patron Wizard
    3  Stormscape Apprentice

// Spells
    3  AEther Vial
    4  Swords to Plowshares
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Time Walk
    1  Ancestral Recall
    3  Brainstorm
    4  Gush
    4  Misdirection
    4  Force of Will

// Sideboard
SB: 2  Echoing Truth
SB: 1  Plains
SB: 2  Disenchant
SB: 2  Energy Flux
SB: 4  Leyline of the Void
SB: 2  Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2  Kataki, War's Wage

So 19 mana, 20 creatures, 12 disruptive instants, and 9 draw spells. (19 + 20 + 12 + 9 = 60)

[PhilipJFry]

So still 19 mana, upped it to 20 creatures, and now 10 draw spells.

Not that I am trying to be a pain, but it looks like Mox Sapphire has disappeared, leaving only 18 mana (granting Aether Vial) in the 60 card deck.  Is this intentional?

Updated list.

[Sextiger]

I have been testing the deck a little and I had to go up to 2 patron wizards, the man is pretty much a pure lock as soon as he hits the board and his casting cost is not a problem whatsoever for this deck.  I'm running no Mindcensors at the moment, which is probably a big problem, I'll try to fit him back in when I can. 

[policehq]

Have you tested Echoing Truth in the place of Swords to Plowshares, for match-ups against Empty the Warrens, Meloku, and/or Magus of the Moon, in the maindeck instead of sideboard?

[ErkBek]

Have you tested Echoing Truth in the place of Swords to Plowshares, for match-ups against Empty the Warrens, Meloku, and/or Magus of the Moon, in the maindeck instead of sideboard?

Nope, what you see is what you get. If you think it's needed please test it and post your results.

[Crankster]

I concur with sextiger. Patron Wizard is sick in this deck.

From your post it's not totally clear if you've played the deck or if you're just talking in theory. I'd like to see you add a little more than "sick." In what matchups has he been best? Ever finding his tapping ability useless? Also, do you think he's better than mindcensor? Is there something other than Mindcensor you'd be looking to cut for Patron Wizard?

If you have tested the deck, do you think that I should increase the number of Patron Wizards in the deck, or do you think is the magical number of Patron Wizards in the deck?

-Eric

[Phele]

A friend of mine plays a U/W Wizards deck.  It turns out that Trinket Mage and Patron Wizard are actually a fairly broken combo.

He used a full set of moxes and Leaks.  A common start would be something like.

Turn 1 Island, Mox (Mana Leak something)
Turn 2: Land, Trinket Mage (grabbing Black Lotus), Black Lotus, Patron Wizard.

From there your opponent cannot catch up.

Also Trinket Mage is useful for removal as it fetches Explosives, Aether Spellbomb and Pithing Needle.

The described move sounds not bad, but how would this be better than just playing Bomberman where Lotus with Salvagers it usually gg not just being able to hinder some stuff from resolving. But I could imagine, that he could build some sort of hybrid build with Patrons and Salvagers together.

On topic: I really want to test out this approach but a lot of work hindered me so far from trying it. So this question is based just on looking at the list: Do Gush and Voidmage really interact that well? To me it seems with that light manabase your really want to stick your islands in play when you play four Voidmages and want them to be really effective. I can imagine it as a quite good play to response on an opponent play with Gush and two blue floating and then sac a wizard. But without further acceleration the next turn Voidmage will be almost useless again. Just a thought, you might think about cutting one Voidmage or so. Addiotionally I wonder if your pet card Ninja doesn't fit in this deck even though he's not a wizard.You play quite a few one drops and Ninja interacts quite well with Sage, Spellstutter and sometimes Meddling.

[cheddercaveman]

Admittedly, I've only been able to goldfish this so far (hopefully some actual experience later this week), but Gush just helps the deck out.  It feels like you want to gush very strategically.  It can help you cheat your mana at times too, so if you need to play that patron wizard, float 2, gush, play one of the lands again and the wizard for instance.  The interation that I'm seeing as amazing has been with Vial.  Vial @ 2, 2 mana on the board, vial in voidmage, sac the sage from the turn before.  Lets you put the guy down and use him right away.  I got double vial a couple of times and it didnt feel like too much of a problem generally.

[ErkBek]

On topic: I really want to test out this approach but a lot of work hindered me so far from trying it. So this question is based just on looking at the list: Do Gush and Voidmage really interact that well? To me it seems with that light manabase your really want to stick your islands in play when you play four Voidmages and want them to be really effective. I can imagine it as a quite good play to response on an opponent play with Gush and two blue floating and then sac a wizard. But without further acceleration the next turn Voidmage will be almost useless again. Just a thought, you might think about cutting one Voidmage or so. Addiotionally I wonder if your pet card Ninja doesn't fit in this deck even though he's not a wizard.You play quite a few one drops and Ninja interacts quite well with Sage, Spellstutter and sometimes Meddling.

Gush and VMP work just fine together, probably better than any other draw engine available. As for ninja

Ninja has just proven terrible tempo and usually draws more cards that I can't play since I spent all my mana on turns 1 and 2 establishing this guy. I thought that'd be fine since it works well in URBana fish with Gorilla shamans, but my favorite creature of all time just isn't getting it done in here. Even a turn 1 Sage, Turn 2 Ninja isn't the most impressive start. The deck's draw engine of Gush, Brainstorm, and Ancestral (whether stolen or yours) is working out just fine.

EDIT:  How did Ninja'ing Sage of Epityr and then recasting Sage work for you?

Surprisingly not so good. Like it seems like you'd be hooked up at this point, but let's imagine you're playing vs. Empty Gifts. So you've got your draw engine established on turn 2, but they're playing a deck that can really do broken things usually around turn 3. I'd expect them to duress my hand and set up the turn 4 win (unless they've found a fastbond, in which they go for it now). So then they'll likely either drain my next threat or Reb my ninja. See what I'm getting at? It's going to go down hill really fast. Ninja also gets blocked off by other aggro decks and shop decks usually pretty quickly too. In URBana things are totally different though. You ninja out a gorilla shaman, and draw Reb's, Duresses, or wastes, not disruptive creatures that need to be cast in your main phase, you draw disruptive spells that will stop them from winning on turn 3 or 4. It's a huge difference.

Both of these things aren't quite apparent when looking at the decklist, but I'm pretty sure anyone that's played the deck would agree with me.

For those of you that are still unsure about the draw in the deck, think of Gush as standstill in old UR fish decks, except you don't have to pay mana for it and it has some cool tricks.

[ErkBek]

I've been finding that I'm usually not having much problem hitting 3 mana at least at some point in the game. Patron Wizard and Aven Mindcensor are both bombs and I really want to consistantly be dropping one of them every turn 3. So I've decided to cut Sprites from my list since they're more of a mid game card for cards that are more consistantly effective in the mid and late game. Accordingly, I've added a 4th Sage of Epityr since he improves patron wizard and digs for extra mana. So from my last list I've made these changes

-3 Spellstutter Sprite
+1 Sage
+1 Patron Wizard
+1 Aven Mindcensor

[Neonico]

Have you considered the following options :
Splash Black, for confidant and Yixilid jailer (Yes, he is a wizard !)
Azorius Guildmage to deal with dryads/Tog/colossus
Angelic sheild is nice tech in the sideboard for the same purpose.

[wiley]

The black splash really does not help this deck, in fact it would detract from the power.  I beleive this has been said before in the thread.

The apprentice from the last couple of builds is filling the role that the guildmage would, and since the apprentice takes less of an initial investment and comes online a turn faster it is the better choice.

Angelic shield is a one shot unsummon that doesn't provide any real advantage.  Not that it is a horrible card, but there are better things vying for slots in this deck.

To Kobefan:  Have you tested the wizard cycler from future sight at all?  I'm skeptical on whether a 3 mana tutor would be worth it, but it might serve as a way to more consistantly get the patron and censor (though you should be drawing into one of the two by turn three).  Just wondering what your thoughts were.

[ErkBek]

To Kobefan:  Have you tested the wizard cycler from future sight at all?  I'm skeptical on whether a 3 mana tutor would be worth it, but it might serve as a way to more consistantly get the patron and censor (though you should be drawing into one of the two by turn three).  Just wondering what your thoughts were.

Wizard Cycling seems like it'd be cute, but would be a very inefficient use of your mana.

[Jank Golem]

Interesting deck, my one question is about it functions in the early game. You seem to have strong chances once you get Gush online and get a significant number of creatures on the board, but how do you stop early threats? You do have 8 pitch counters but the 4 Misds are very limited outside of a counter war. Perhaps running something like Disrupt or splashing a color for REB/Thoughtseize/Duress could help in the early game.

[ErkBek]

Interesting deck, my one question is about it functions in the early game. You seem to have strong chances once you get Gush online and get a significant number of creatures on the board, but how do you stop early threats? You do have 8 pitch counters but the 4 Misds are very limited outside of a counter war. Perhaps running something like Disrupt or splashing a color for REB/Thoughtseize/Duress could help in the early game.

What early threats are you worried about? Basically there are 5 in the entire metagame (since fast ritual combo is mostly non existent)

1) Ancestral Recall
2) Duress / Thoughtseize
3) Dryad / Tog / DSC
4) Fastbond
5) Flash

I've pretty much got it all covered with my disruption package. For flash I've got leylines on the board, and once I drop MM or VMP, I win.

[Jank Golem]

Interesting deck, my one question is about it functions in the early game. You seem to have strong chances once you get Gush online and get a significant number of creatures on the board, but how do you stop early threats? You do have 8 pitch counters but the 4 Misds are very limited outside of a counter war. Perhaps running something like Disrupt or splashing a color for REB/Thoughtseize/Duress could help in the early game.

What early threats are you worried about? Basically there are 5 in the entire metagame (since fast ritual combo is mostly non existent)

1) Ancestral Recall
2) Duress / Thoughtseize
3) Dryad / Tog / DSC
4) Fastbond
5) Flash

I've pretty much got it all covered with my disruption package. For flash I've got leylines on the board, and once I drop MM or VMP, I win.

For instance Stax or Gush based decks are both able to threaten early. The earliest the fish deck can totally stabilize and answer these threats is turn 3, giving the opposing player plenty of time to set up a broken play. Running Duress or Thoughtseize allows you to slow down the early play enough so that you can make into the more favorable lategame.

[ErkBek]

Interesting deck, my one question is about it functions in the early game. You seem to have strong chances once you get Gush online and get a significant number of creatures on the board, but how do you stop early threats? You do have 8 pitch counters but the 4 Misds are very limited outside of a counter war. Perhaps running something like Disrupt or splashing a color for REB/Thoughtseize/Duress could help in the early game.

What early threats are you worried about? Basically there are 5 in the entire metagame (since fast ritual combo is mostly non existent)

1) Ancestral Recall
2) Duress / Thoughtseize
3) Dryad / Tog / DSC
4) Fastbond
5) Flash

I've pretty much got it all covered with my disruption package. For flash I've got leylines on the board, and once I drop MM or VMP, I win.

For instance Stax or Gush based decks are both able to threaten early. The earliest the fish deck can totally stabilize and answer these threats is turn 3, giving the opposing player plenty of time to set up a broken play. Running Duress or Thoughtseize allows you to slow down the early play enough so that you can make into the more favorable lategame.

You're just going to have to play the deck. Duress, Thoughtseize, REB, and Disrupt aren't going to help out your stax matchup at all. I'm still not sure what you're talking about when you say "Gush deks threaten early" since they don't baring a turn 1 or 2 Fastbond.