So.. Where is Doomsday?

[ACME_Myst]

Right before the restriction of Gifts, and the unrestriction of Gush, Smmenen posted an article about the new Meandeck
Doomsday. He opened the thread with the words "Doomsday is a GREAT deck right now, in my honest opinion.   
It might actually be impossible to play however."

Then, Gifts got the hammer, and we get Gush. There was some brief discussion about wether Gush would be good
in Doomsday, and then the thread died for some reason.

Ever since the unrestriction, I've been testing and tweaking a Gush Doomsday build. For reference, here's my
latest build:

//Mana (24)
3 underground sea
1 tropical island
4 polluted delta
2 flooded strand
3 island
4 dark ritual
2 cabal ritual
1 mox jet
1 mox sapphire
1 black lotus
1 lion's eye diamond
1 lotus petal

//Draw (10)
1 ancestral recall
4 brainstorm
4 gush
1 street wraith

//Protection (12)
3 duress
3 unmask
4 force of will
1 pact of negation
1 chain of vapor

//Broken (12)
1 fastbond
1 necropotence
1 yawgmoth's bargain
1 demonic tutor
1 vampiric tutor
1 mystical tutor
1 imperial seal
3 doomsday
1 yawgmoth's will
1 mind's desire

//Win (2)
1 tendrils of agony
1 research//development

Basically, this deck combines the enormous draw power of the GushBond engine, with the raw power of Rituals to
pump out bombs. It then adds killswitches in the form of Doomsday. It also runs a crapton of protection.
Note the deck doesn't resolve around playing Doomsday. You should win over 60% of your games without it. It does,
however, combo with Gush and Brainstorm to give you wins out of nowhere.

So, why doesn't anybody play this deck? Have people forgotten about it? Do you just feel it's unviable? Is it too
difficult? Something else?

[ErkBek]

So, why doesn't anybody play this deck?

Quite frankly, I don't think the deck is very good. It's fairly binary for a mid speed ritual combo deck. I tested a build like your current list and quite a few variations of it. Here are some problems I found

1) Unmask sucks. If this gets Misdirected, you striped 3 cards from your hand. Thoughtseize isn't that good of a replacement since exposing a dual on turn 1 isn't always a safe play. I ran 2-3 Pacts and no Unmasks because Unmask creates very narrow lines of play despite giving you "safe" kills when it works. 3 Unmask, 4 FoW, 3 Topdeck Tutors, and 3 Doomsday all are card disadvantage creating very narrow lines of play, especially after a duress.

2) Gush Bond isn't very impressive without Merchant Scroll. I tested Fastbond and cut it, but kept 4 Gushes.

3) You can't run a basic swamp because Gush, but you want to because of Duress.

4) A resolved Sphere is pretty much GG. A resolved Chalice @1 is pretty much GG.

5) GAT and Gush Storm both have very good games vs. storm combo in general because Duress, FoW, Drain, MisD, and Reb are all very good disruption against you.

So, why play this deck?

[And11]

Excellent reply by kobefan even though Doomsday is my favorite card of all time. There're just better and less risky stuff to do in vintage nowadays. Gush is good, your restricted cards are good, but Rituals and Doomsday are of the past, it seems

[andrewpate]

So, why doesn't anybody play this deck? Have people forgotten about it? Do you just feel it's unviable? Is it too
difficult? Something else?

The question you should be asking is, "Why WOULD anybody play this deck."  I don't mean to say that the deck is terrible (it isn't), but rather to say that the burden of proof should fall somewhat on the innovation.

Let's say that you have a tournament next month and you have decided that you really want to play Gush-based combo (i.e., not GAT).  The "default" list to choose would be a Kolowith- or ICBM-style so-called "Empty Gifts," with Empty the Warrens and friends.  This is because it is the only Gush combo deck that has proven itself to be able to produce results in actual tournaments.  At this point, you have two questions:

1)What decks to I expect to face?
2)What kind of matchup does Empty Gifts have against those decks?

If the answer to question 2, which depends on the answer to question 1, is that Empty Gifts has even or favorable matchups against all or most of those decks, then you have a winner.  If you find the answer to question 2 to be unsatisfactory, you must then decide WHY Empty Gifts struggles in those matchups and HOW a Gush Combo build could overcome those problems.

In presenting a new build, you have skipped already to this step.  It is assumed, if you are suggesting Gush Doomsday as a valid consideration during the deck selection process, that you find Empty Gifts to be somehow unsatisfactory.  This is a fine claim to make, but we will need to know what decks you think give problems to it and why you think this deck is superior in those matchups.  Simply to say that the deck works is not enough, because a lot of decks work and this is not, at first glance, any faster or more stable than many of them.  If this deck is a good call, it is because it wins in situations where similiar decks lose, not because it is stronger.  Plenty of decks pack more raw power and/or more disruption.  Put another way, what are you gaining in exchange for what, as Eric pointed out, is an obvious increased weakness to lock parts?

[ErkBek]

I love Empty Gifts, etc.

Why play Long over Meandeck Gifts?

I'm certain that this deck has a much better game vs. Fish than Empty Gifts. Both decks lose to a stax lock piece. Empty Gifts destroys the Gush Mirror and most drain decks, my deck is a little under 50% despite my best efforts. You've got more game vs. Ichorid and less vs. Flash.

The reason to play this deck is you get 100% protected kills that can't fizzle. The problem I found was getting there b/c the card disadvantage created narrow lines of play, which in my experience is the exact opposite of what I want a combo deck. That fundamental problem with this deck imo.

[andrewpate]

In retrospect, my post did look that way.  Fair call.  Let me assure you that this is not my intent and in fact I have personally played only a handful of games with Empty Gifts, and none with this.  I was merely addressing the fact that the OP contains a highly innovative decklist with no discussion as to why it exists.  The purpose of my post was not to sing the praises of Empty Gifts, it was to say that innovation needs direction.  To what problem is this deck the solution?  You say Fish, which seems perfectly reasonable to me since Empty Gifts can often be wrecked by Echoing Truth, Aven Mindcensor, and any number of other Fish components.  This is the information I was requesting.

[ACME_Myst]

I'll just post a quick reply for now as I currently don't have much time. I'll post something more when I get home from college tonight.

This post is mostly directed at kobefan.

You say that all the card disadvantage adds up to create narrow lines of play. Do you feel this is mostly because of Unmask? I ask this because most decks run 4 Fow, and 3 Topdeck tutors. I wouldn't add Doomsday to the list of card disadvantage, because you just win the turn you cast it. I've never (Ok, 1 time) played DD then passed the turn. You run plenty of cards that win you the game the same turn after resolving DD, so it shouldn't be necessary to ever pass the turn. It just creates really complex situations in which you opponent can topdeck way to much cards to wreck you, so it should be avoided at all times.
So would you say that with a change in the disruption package, the deck would become a lot less linear in terms of possible lines of play, ie leaving you with more options?
Personally, I've always liked Unmask, though I have to agree it sometimes does wreck your own hand a bit too much. This can be especially bad when you want to play Brainstorm to draw into you DD pile.

Obviously the GushBond engine is better with Merchant Scroll. Though even without scrolls, it just wins you games you have no business winning. When you kickoff that engine, a couple things can happen:
- You draw into the nuts, Gush and cantrip trough you deck, resolve Yawgmoth's Will and just win.
- You draw into DD + drawspell. Now you can just win that way
- If neither of the above happens, you've generally drawn into a crapton of disruption. That means you wreck you opponents hand and pass the turn with counter backup. This isn't bad either.

That's it for now, I've got to go, but as I said, I'll post some more (or edit this post) tonight.

[ErkBek]

I wouldn't add Doomsday to the list of card disadvantage, because you just win the turn you cast it.

Doomsday needs a ritual to be cast about 80% of the time. Thus, you are spending 2 cards to produce 1 threat. So, let's look at some things

3 DDay
1 Bargain
1 Necro
4 FoW
3 Unmask
4 Topdeck tutors
(Fastbond sorta is)

That's 16 cards that create 2-for-1's when the threat is countered (or 2-for-2, but taking their worst card). The problem then comes your ability to produce card advantage to keep up with the control deck's. You run Ancestral and Gush. They run ancestral, gush, and Merchant Scroll.

This was the problem for Pitch Long vs. Meandeck Gifts. Long is pretty much a turn 2 deck, Meandeck Gifts is turn 3-5 depending on their draw. Meandeck gifts would assemble 2x counter by turn 2, win a fight over a threat long produced then either win the game or reload on cards quicker. This was further complicated by if you cast a draw 7 and don't win that turn, MDG will likely untap and win or assemble a large counterwall. This was a huge problem. Pitch Long would board into Grim Long with Xantids to try to match MDG's card efficiency just to have a shot.

I solved this problem about 3 months before gifts got restricted, when I made GWS Long. GWS long ran 4 Duress maindeck, and boarded 3 Extripates and 3 REBs, swinging the matchup so that Long was far more efficient, faster, and it could easily disrupt their kill with Extirpate. GWS Long was put to rest when Flash became popular and Gifts was restricted.

Now, Doomsday has more game vs. Gush than PL vs. Gifts because it doesn't have the draw7 fiasco, but it's still not a matchup that's wildly favorable and can justify the deck's terrible game vs. Spheres and Chalice. That's why I don't think Doomsday is part of the top tier.

As far as a solution to this problem, I don't have one. I cut Unmasks for Pacts and a 4th Duress to improve the Gush matchup further. Unfortunately, I have lost my Doomsday list, but it was something like:


//Mana (23)
4 underground sea
3 polluted delta
3 flooded strand
2 island
4 dark ritual
3 cabal ritual
1 mox jet
1 mox sapphire
1 black lotus
1 lotus petal

//Draw (13)
1 ancestral recall
4 brainstorm
4 gush
3 street wraith

//Protection (11)
4 duress
4 force of will
2 pact of negation
1 chain of vapor

//Broken (12)
1 Infernal Contract (was ok, and enabled a DDay stack to win through Chalice @1)
1 necropotence
1 yawgmoth's bargain
1 demonic tutor
1 vampiric tutor
1 mystical tutor
3 doomsday
1 yawgmoth's will
1 mind's desire
1 Twister

//Win (2)
1 tendrils of agony
1 research//development

I didn't like the fastbond engine in here at all. I liked Cabal Rits more than LED as well.

[Xyre]

As a wise man once said, the deck is too damn complicated. Sure, memorizing the general WC is fine, but solving complex problems, creating stacks to play around what your opponent has, etc. is too complicated/time consuming. It's a good deck, but it's too tricky.

[ErkBek]

As a wise man once said, the deck is too damn complicated. Sure, memorizing the general WC is fine, but solving complex problems, creating stacks to play around what your opponent has, etc. is too complicated/time consuming. It's a good deck, but it's too tricky.

I really don't think this deck is all that difficult to create Dday stacks as you guys make it out to be. Doomsday is easier to play correctly than Gifts by far, it's just less forgiving. When you cast Gifts your opponent can give you 6 different combinations of cards, who knows if they are sandbagging a counter (or MisD, or Extirpate) and waiting for you to go all in on your gifts turn. Often times you just assume Gifts resolved so they don't have a counter to make thing easier for yourself. Also, it's been said when you gifts, grab the 2 cards you want and the 2 cards they can't give you. People have made these simplifications to play gifts reasonably easily. I use these simplifications fairly often, because trying to account for 6 possible combinations of cards gifts finds and what's in there hand is more difficult than 1 combination and what's in there hand.

Doomsday is much easier to play perfectly than gifts because you aren't interacting with your opponent when you play it. You get to stack 5 cards they way you want. Your opponent's interaction is limited to what's in their hand, meaning you've got 5 less possible outcomes than you do with gifts.

Creating unique doomsday stacks to account for you hand isn't that difficult really, and accounting for your opponents has to be done sometimes. Creating Doomsday stacks to win through Chalice or Sphere is, because most of the time it's not even possible. For example, let's say you just resolved Doomsday and you are holding Gush (already played land for turn), you have to go for the kill that turn waiting will not benefit you even if you are unsure if they are holding back a counterspell. To play the deck you need to make and understand a couple of logical connections.

I think if I played Doomsday in a tournament I doubt I would lose a single game because of Doomsdaying incorrectly, I probably wouldn't top 8 at a big event though since getting to the point of winning is often very difficult. I'm certain that if you gave me Meandeck Gifts and Doomsday, I would lose more games to gifts-ing poorly than Doomsdaying poorly. The excuse of Dday being too difficult to play is crap, MDG is tougher to play, people just took the time to understand the deck.

[Smmenen]

The excuse of Dday being too difficult to play is crap, MDG is tougher to play, people just took the time to understand the deck.

Being the creator of the latter and my team the creator of the former, including its many iterations, first coming up with Research/Dev. for example, I just don't agree with this.  Dday is difficult to play, difficult to build, and difficult to navigate.  It's actually not just making Dday Stacks - it's about: 1) when to dday, 2) what cards to put back with Brainstorm, 3) which disruption spells to use and when, etc, etc.   These questions have ripple effects that linger throughout the game.   Every Brainstorm card you put back has an impact on what you Dday for.   Put back the wrong component in a tight spot - a card you could later use, but only slightly, and you could lose.

It's my opinion that playing Dday is practically impossible unless you have actually played hundreds of games.   There are decisions trees that are simply too non obvious, but would require massive experience to know the correct line of play. 

To further debate this point would require me to write paragraphs and paragraphs of words that probably still would be inadequate to conveying my experience with both.   Plus, it's pretty moot - I mean, I doubt anyone actually cares.   It's like debating stupid esoteric point that no one cares about. 

[LotusHead]

We don't mind you expounding on Doomsday or Gifts at all. Just some of us don't have Premium and/or don't check out 3-6 month old articles. Not your fault, ours.

My expericence with Doomsday, is that generally, if a "Hate card" hits play, Doomsday dies, unless super-expertly piloted.

Hate cards are any number of Shop tricks, except maybe Crucible.  Also, any number of "control" tricks, like Force of Will, or even quicker combo (this exists).

Mostly I play this from a Shop/Bomberman point of view.


That being said, Doomsday pilots that test (not to do what in each matchup, but more what to do with their own deck in most situations) have a "combo-ish" chance of winning any matchup.  But this often involves winning the die roll to ensure going first and going first on game 3.  The odds are kinda with you.

To clarify, I originally build "Bomberman" under the name of SlapJack slightly post Mirroden to have a Combo Control Agroo plan game 1, where my Combo/Control plan reigned supreme game 1 (unless I faced Fish at the time. I was new to Vintage, and so was Fish(PTW style) as far as I know.)

Game 2/3, I either went broken, or countered their threats (Combo-Control), or at worse, beat down with Trinket Mages (aggro).

This three-pronged attack was new at the time, but all I knew is what my deck COULD do, and I sat behind it and hoped for the best (I had a wishboard, so my game decisions/outs were maleable).

So, why doesn't anybody play this deck? Have people forgotten about it? Do you just feel it's unviable? Is it too
difficult? Something else?

Doomsday last year, or now had 2 choices. Win or Die.

Other decks then and currently have 3 or more plans: Win, Win eventually by preventing the other players from winning first, or Die to opponents foiling your plans.  Other decks seem to have more outs, which seems to have been better than the Doomsday plan of "win quick/first/now" plan that say, SX or 2 land Belcher had.

Obviously, Meta Considerations Apply. (There is zero TMWA out here, zero Oath, minimal Fish. Well, at least till next week's tourney!

[nineisnoone]

The excuse of Dday being too difficult to play is crap, MDG is tougher to play, people just took the time to understand the deck.

Being the creator of the latter and my team the creator of the former, including its many iterations, first coming up with Research/Dev. for example, I just don't agree with this.  Dday is difficult to play, difficult to build, and difficult to navigate.  It's actually not just making Dday Stacks - it's about: 1) when to dday, 2) what cards to put back with Brainstorm, 3) which disruption spells to use and when, etc, etc.   These questions have ripple effects that linger throughout the game.   Every Brainstorm card you put back has an impact on what you Dday for.   Put back the wrong component in a tight spot - a card you could later use, but only slightly, and you could lose.

It's my opinion that playing Dday is practically impossible unless you have actually played hundreds of games.   There are decisions trees that are simply too non obvious, but would require massive experience to know the correct line of play. 

To further debate this point would require me to write paragraphs and paragraphs of words that probably still would be inadequate to conveying my experience with both.   Plus, it's pretty moot - I mean, I doubt anyone actually cares.   It's like debating stupid esoteric point that no one cares about. 

Honestly, I would love to hear more discussion on this deck, or at the very least current decklists. Nothing like winning on a card named Doomsday.

[the boogie man]

If you could post anything on the deck, I would love to hear it. The deck is too difficult for me to play in a serious tournament, but I love to play it casually.

[AmbivalentDuck]

With Thoughtseize now available in place of Unmask, has Doomsday gotten better?

In online testing with Thoughtseize and Confidants, Bob makes a nice speed bump against a meta where creatures without trample get turned sideways to kill you.  I can't really say how much I'm winning since MWS opponents don't like sitting still for 5 minutes while you build your pile.  From what I've seen with Duress and Thoughtseize, I'm probably winning most of my games.  Now, that's against U/R goblins and other random MWS crap...but still.

I'm pretty confident that Thoughtseize and Bob are improvements, though Bob is only good in what I perceive the meta to be.  The Twister is in because it's key to some novelty stacks not on my crib sheet (Leyline and Thorn of Amethyst against you, for example).  Whether or not this is now 'good enough' to bring to a tourney...my best guess is probably not. 

Thoughts?


List messing around with this right now:

// Lands
    4  Underground Sea
    4  Polluted Delta
    3  Snow-Covered Island
    2  Bloodstained Mire
    1  Swamp

// Creatures
    4  Dark Confidant
    1  Street Wraith

// Spells
    1  Tendrils of Agony
    1  Demonic Tutor
    1  Vampiric Tutor
    1  Research/Development
    2  Duress
    4  Brainstorm
    1  Misdirection
    1  Lion's Eye Diamond
    1  Timetwister
    4  Doomsday
    1  Lotus Petal
    4  Dark Ritual
    1  Time Walk
    1  Ancestral Recall
    1  Yawgmoth's Will
    1  Mind's Desire
    4  Force of Will
    4  Gush
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Sapphire
    4  Thoughtseize

// Sideboard
SB: 1  Sins of the Past
SB: 4  Leyline of the Void
SB: 1  Research/Development
SB: 3  Slaughter Pact
SB: 1  Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1  Misdirection
SB: 2  Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2  Hurkyl's Recall


and this as my crib sheet (stolen mostly from Smennen):

Situation(cost), C = card in hand, T = pass the turn

Standard (UB, T)
Ancestral Recall
Black Lotus
Dark Ritual
Mind's Desire
R&D

Desire in Hand (U, T)
Ancestral Recall
Black Lotus
Dark Ritual
Dark Ritual (Could be anything)
R&D

Ancestral in Hand (U)
Black Lotus
Dark Ritual
Mind's Desire
R&D
Tendrils of Agony

Black Lotus
Lion's Eye Diamond
Gush
Yawgmoth's Will
Tendrils of Agony

Gush in Hand (U)
Ancestral
Black Lotus/LED
Lion's Eye Diamond/ Black Lotus
Yawgmoth's Will
Tendrils of Agony

R&D in Hand (U, 1 turn NOT optimal)
Brainstorm
LED/ Dark Ritual (depending on how much free mana you will have)
Black Lotus
Yawg Will
Mind's Desire

Brainstorm in Hand
(C, UU)
Ancestral Recall
Black Lotus
LED
Desire
Beacon

(CC, U)
Lion's Eye Diamond
Black Lotus
Yawgmoth's Will
Mind's Desire
Beacon of Destruction

(C, U)
Timetwister
Black Lotus
Lion's Eye Diamond
Yawgmoth Will
Tendrils of Agony

Rod (U, T)
Ancestral Recall
Dark Ritual
Dark Ritual
Mind's Desire
Beacon of Destruction


Chalice
0 (Ancestral in Hand, UB)
Ritual
Ritual
Wraith
Will
Tendrils of Agony

1 (Ancestral in Hand, U)
Timetwister
Black Lotus
Lion's Eye Diamond
Yawgmoth's Will
Tendrils of Agony

[ACME_Myst]

The problem I have with Thoughtseize is the additional lifeloss.
I mean, between 6 fetches, 4 Fow, 4 Bob, 4 thoughtseize, 1 Street Wraith, 1 Vampiric Tutor and 4 Doomsday, your taking quite a bit of damage.
Has this been a problem for you?

Also, add this pile to your sheet:

Gush in Hand, Opponent has GY hate out, you float 1 black mana:

Black Lotus
Ancestral Recall
Brainstorm
Lotus Petal
R&D

Could come in handy.

Anyway, good to see that other people are also working on the deck.

[AmbivalentDuck]

I mean, between 6 fetches, 4 Fow, 4 Bob, 4 thoughtseize, 1 Street Wraith, 1 Vampiric Tutor and 4 Doomsday, your taking quite a bit of damage.
Has this been a problem for you?

Not really.  I briefly put in Necropotence and that did cause problems.  Usually, I can pin game losses on some factor other than my cards dealing damage to me.  Very seldom would starting at 22 or 24 life have swung lost games in my favor.

[AmbivalentDuck]

I top 4-ed at a tournament this weekend with this list:

// Lands
    4  Underground Sea
    1  Snow-Covered Island
    4  Polluted Delta
    2  Bloodstained Mire
    1  Swamp
    2  Volcanic Island

// Creatures
    4  Dark Confidant

// Spells
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Lion's Eye Diamond
    1  Lotus Petal
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Mox Ruby
    3  Dark Ritual
    3  Thoughtseize
    3  Duress
    4  Force of Will
    1  Misdirection
    3  Doomsday
    1  Mind's Desire
    1  Tendrils of Agony
    1  Research/Development
    1  Yawgmoth's Will
    1  Vampiric Tutor
    1  Demonic Tutor
    1  Mystical Tutor
    1  Ancestral Recall
    4  Brainstorm
    3  Gush
    1  Time Walk
    1  Chain of Vapor
    1  Fire/Ice
    1  Tormod's Crypt

// Sideboard
SB: 1  Misdirection
SB: 1  Research/Development
SB: 1  Chain of Vapor
SB: 1  Sins of the Past
SB: 4  Leyline of the Void
SB: 1  Smother
SB: 1  Pyroclasm
SB: 2  Ingot Chewer
SB: 1  Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 2  Red Elemental Blast


I did well against Ichorid, Fish, and Dawn of the Dead losing to Vroman in the finals.  I only used three piles during the whole tourney (and only cast Dday 5 times, it was countered once):

Ancestral
Lotus
Ritual
MD
RD

Brainstorm (Ancestral was RFGed)
Lotus
Ritual
MD
RD

Ancestral
Lotus
Ritual
Mox Jet (MD in hand)
RD

The rest of my kills were based on the opponent scooping to board position (Leyline + many FoW vs. Ichorid) or beats (Confidant, Ingot Chewer, Development tokens), except one Tendrils kill off Chain of Vapor and some rituals.  Confidants and Thoughtseize were strong performers, and Ingot Chewer + Chain of Vapor was enough to fend off Thorns.

The deck did what I expected it to: successfully play control with a potential combo finish in a FoW light environment.  Dday is very resilient to hand and grave hate, making it ideal against decks like Ichorid and Fish.

[tomjoad]

I've recently started testing Doomsday on MWS a bit, but I'm having trouble making piles. If you resolve Doomsday, but you know you opponent has FoW in hand (or are pretty sure they do), what is a good stack to make? Or should you just not cast Doomsday in that situation? Seems like a fun deck, but I'm really starting to see why this is called "too difficult" at times. Way harder to play than Ritual/Meandeck Gifts.

[ACME_Myst]

Obviously, just don't cast DD if you don't have an answer.
That's like asking what would be a good time to play Yawgmoth's Will during the combo turn of Gifts,
and you need to resolve it to win that game.

You should run at least 6 Duress effects and 4 counters of your own, so they shouldn't be that hard to find.

As an additional note, though this is also fairly obvious, NEVER cast Doomsday if you know your opponent has an Extirpate.

All I can say to help you pilot this deck is to practice, practice, then practice some more. Goldfish the deck every single free moment
you have. Remember hands / boards that you can't figure out, and think about them on your way to work/college/whatever.
Then give your goldfish threats of their own, like counters, a two-turn clock, duresses (taking your best card) etc.

Once you've done that a gazillion times, you should know what piles to make in most situations. Only if you know these, you should start to
practice against real opponents. Not doing it in this order might discourage you to play this deck. A good idea here might be to keep a reference
sheet for piles to make in certain situations (Don't do this in tournaments, if you didn't know that). There is an old threat on DD somewhere on these boards, I believe the second ( ? ) page contains lot's of useful piles, even though this was posted pre-gush unrestriction.

If this is too much work to learn the deck, this might not be the deck for you. All I can say that once you master the deck, it's VERY rewarding. Personally, I have played probably well over a thousand goldfishes (obviously, not just 'dumb' goldfishes, but like I said, give them some threats) with the deck, and have found that it was well worth my time.

Good luck with the deck, and I hope you like your time with it.

[AmbivalentDuck]

As an additional note, though this is also fairly obvious, NEVER cast Doomsday if you know your opponent has an Extirpate.

Eh?  You'd just build a Brainstorm pile and take your 60% chance of outright winning if necessary.  Sure, it's *better* to wait for the Duress if you can, but it's a judgment call not a 'never.'

All I can say to help you pilot this deck is to practice, practice, then practice some more. Goldfish the deck every single free moment
you have. Remember hands / boards that you can't figure out, and think about them on your way to work/college/whatever.
Then give your goldfish threats of their own, like counters, a two-turn clock, duresses (taking your best card) etc.

Obviously practice is helpful, but it's a control deck.  I lost to Vroman based on my *Duress* decisions.  It *never* mattered over the course of the tourney if I could build a specialty pile. Just memorize the three main piles and you'll be fine.  Be smart about going off.  Knowing *when* is way more important than knowing how.


The three piles that will get you through a tourney:

Pass the turn (need UB)
Ancestral Recall
Black Lotus
Dark Ritual
Mind's Desire
R&D

Gush in Hand (need U)
Ancestral
Black Lotus/LED
Lion's Eye Diamond/ Black Lotus
Yawgmoth's Will
Tendrils of Agony

Brainstorm in hand (need to cast Brainstorm)
Lion's Eye Diamond
Black Lotus
Yawgmoth's Will
Mind's Desire
R&D

Every other pile can be learned/built from those or invented in a pinch.

[Malhavoc]

Kobefan says the deck have too many 2x1 cards, and it can be too difficult to break through a counterwall with enough bombs. Regarding this issue, what about running Xantid Swarm? Sure, it slows down the deck 1 turn, but it's a good way to force a win through any sort of counterspell or instant-speed disruption (stifle, extirpate, even ancestral, and so much more). Xantid is a very good 1xmany against any sort of control or aggrocontrol deck. It's obviously weaker against combo/prison however, since it does not strip them of their win conditions or lock pieces, but at least as a sb option it seems to be quite interesting.

[AmbivalentDuck]

For reference, Doomsday is a bad combo deck.  Doomsday plays *control* against most of the meta and uses a combo finish since that strategy allows it to ignore the combat step. 

The deck is solid against the notions of hate and aggro, but it has some issues with better control decks.  RED is the color that best allows it to address modern control.  Red blasts let it play control early on while protecting the kill.  Ingot Chewer provides the best answer to Thorns, and Fire/Pyroclasm keep Magus of the Moon at bay.  My last testing version before the tourney ran green for artifact kill in the side, and tarmogoyf main to stonewall aggro.  It failed.  Dark Confidant is *better* than goyf here because it draws cards while stonewalling the opponent rather than just sitting there looking big, the long-game card advantage enables the control role against decks like Gro.

As far as having too many cards that cost card advantage (D Rit, MisD, FoW, and top-deck tutors), that's absolutely true.  The most relevant retort is that there are no effective many for one threats that an opponent can use against you.  I think it's *the* deck for a brown/Fish/Ichorid meta.  Not so hot in a Dryad meta.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Here's a list that split a Drain at a recent local tournament.

I cut LED for Ritual #4 because even though it made some piles *much* better, it was never necessary for a kill in most cases. It was one less B mana off a brainstorm kill, and without it you're limitted to 18 damage off a pure gush kill (Gush+Dday+Pile, no additional spells that turn).

I'm also down to 3 Confidants because I wanted to see fewer of them. 1 is powerful, 2 slows me down, and 3 is enough to kill me. 1x EtW main has been an improvement in online testing, but didn't come up at the tourney.

This tournament, I resolved Dday twice. Once I set up the Ancestral/pass the turn pile and Seek found my R&D, the other time it made a combo kill in progress cost less mana. Of my 4 kills, 2 used Yawg Will and Tendrils, one was Ichorid scooping to Extirpate on Ichorids and Narcomoebas, and the last was Dday.

Matchups:
5C Fish
G1: I play swamp and use it to duress him (with Vamp tutor in hand), he strips it on his turn.  I don't see another land.
G2: I play a 1st turn Doomsday setting up the standard pile and holding back a volcanic island as my blue source.  He plays Hide//Seek 1st turn.  I have FoW in hand, but no blue cards.

Ichorid:
G1: Lesson learned...never keep a hand against Ichorid just for Tormod's Crypt and FoW.
G2: First turn combo kill off Will, Lotus, Ritual, Vamp Tutor, and Brainstorm in opening hand.
G3: I keep a hand with 2x Extirpate taking Ichorid turn 1 and Narcomoeba many turns later.

Bye:
I got paired down and my opponent decided to drop.

Top 4:
Goyf/Trinket Mage/Bob Fish w/Fast Bond, Gush, Crucible, and Zuran Orb:
G1: He mulls to 4, I have turn 1 Thoughtseize.  He's dead in the water while I kill at my leisure.
G2: He plays first turn trop island, I play first turn Ancestral, Mox Jet, Mox Ruby, and Bob with FoW backup.
-Both of these games were wins by luck.  G1 he got unlucky, G2 I had an almost *ideal* anti-control hand.

I split the Drain with my first round opponent.



// Lands
4  Underground Sea
1  Snow-Covered Island
4  Polluted Delta
2  Bloodstained Mire
1  Swamp
2  Volcanic Island

// Creatures
3  Dark Confidant

// Spells
1  Black Lotus
1  Lotus Petal
1  Mox Jet
1  Mox Sapphire
1  Mox Ruby
4  Dark Ritual
2  Thoughtseize
4  Duress
4  Force of Will
1  Misdirection
1  Mind's Desire
1  Tendrils of Agony
1  Empty the Warrens
1  Yawgmoth's Will
1  Research/Development
3  Doomsday
1  Vampiric Tutor
1  Demonic Tutor
1  Mystical Tutor
1  Ancestral Recall
4  Brainstorm
3  Gush
1  Time Walk
1  Chain of Vapor
1  Fire/Ice
1  Tormod's Crypt

// Sideboard
SB: 1  Empty the Warrens
SB: 1  Research/Development
SB: 1  Chain of Vapor
SB: 1  Sins of the Past
SB: 4  Extirpate
SB: 1  Pyroclasm
SB: 2  Ingot Chewer
SB: 2  Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1  Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1  Necropotence

[mistervader]

Well, we had a 60-man tournament last weekend, and I came in second with my take on Doomsday, and for the most part, with a few tweaks here and there everytime I play it, the deck has consistently served me well.

This weekend, my decklist went thus:

4-Doomsday
4-Brainstorm
4-Dark Ritual
2-Cabal Ritual
3-Street Wraith
4-Force of Will
4-Duress
3-Unmask
1-Pact of Negation
1-Misdirection
1-Imperial Seal
1-Demonic Tutor
1-Mystical Tutor
1-Vampiric Tutor
1-Mind's Desire
1-Research/Development
1-Chain of Vapor
1-Gush
1-Lotus Petal
1-Lion's Eye Diamond
1-Timetwister
1-Tendrills of Agony
1-Black Lotus
1-Ancestral Recall
1-Necropotence
1-Yawgmoth's Will

4-Underground Sea
4-Polluted Delta
2-Island
2-Swamp
2-Flooded Strand

Things I would've changed, had I thought things over better:

- 1 Misdirection, + 1 Pact of Negation. I was in a non-powered meta (So fine, the legitimacy of anything I'm about to say about the deck is not going to have as much weight, but I wanted to chime in regardless.), so other than Hymn To Tourach and FoW, there wasn't much reason to use MisD when PoN could do the trick in protecting my combo.

- 1 Unmask, + 1 Street Wraith. Street Wraith is a great card to have in the deck. It, along with Brainstorm, frequently allowed me to combo out on the turn itself.

+1/3 Gush, - Something else. I think two copies of Gush would've been nice, but to be honest, I never really needed it and still treated it as a singleton. I'm actually leaning towards running 2 Quicken, 2 Gush instead, as Quicken is mad good at setting up the combo safely.

A few card choice explanations:

1. "Why not use Thoughtseize instead of Unmask?" Well, several reasons. First of all, I couldn't find any at the time, secondly, I was squeamish over losing life to I.Seal, Fetchlands, V. Tutor, Street Wraith, AND Thoughtseize. However, if I could find 'em,  I think running 2 of them and 2 Duress wouldn't be such a bad idea. Unmask is just mad good for me, and MisD doesn't faze me since I could opt to "not" see any nonland cards, anyways (My hand is not public knowledge, and I still control the spell.).

2. "Where are the Moxen?!?" Sorry. Can't afford them just yet, and this is a non-proxy environment.

3. "Whatever happened to your Quicken strat?" Well, I was preparing for a very wide open meta, so I needed to spread myself thin as possible. Doing this meant I had to give up my pet card for the moment, since I wasn't sure how useful Quicken, Doomsday would be for me in an open meta. Needless to say, it was a good call that day. Still, don't knock Quicken just yet. It's proven useful to me, and not just in an anecdotal "I rode someone else's storm into Quicken-Tendrils" kind of way. There were many times I had a protected Doomsday win simply because I did it at my opponent's EOT.

4. How's your sideboard? It was prepared against Flash and Ichorid, and to a minor extent, Shops. Fortunately, the only mismatch I ran into that day was one Flash deck, and that was my only loss for the tourney.

Here's a tourney report just to let you know how things worked out. My apologies in advance if you think I was up against janky competition or whatever else...

Round 1, Versus JM Pecaoco (Sui Black):

Game 1 - I win the die roll thankfully, and I set myself up for a combo win by not letting his Hymn To Tourach through (FOW), then playing LED, and playing Doomsday, then passing the turn. He ends up doing nothing of consequence on his turn, and I proceed to win using the standard Plan A stack.

Game 2 - He lays down Leyline of the Void. He goes first, casts Hypnotic Spectre. I  bide my time a bit and Brainstorm some important cards away, then I go Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual, Demonic Tutor for Street Wraith (!), and hardcast him on my second turn. I won the damage race as he never found a threat or a solution to my Wraith for his next seven turns.

Match Standing: 2-0
Tourmanent Standing: 1-0

Round 2: Versus Flash

Game 1 - I stripped his hand with Duress, and took out his Force of Will. I forced his attempt to Flash the next turn, then comboed out on my turn 2 with Rituals and Tutors and Yawgmoth's Will.

Game 2 - I mulled thrice to find Leylines. No luck. He killed me on Turn 1. I didn't find FOW's, either.

Game 3 - I set up for a good third turn win, because I took out his permission with Duress. Unfortunately, on the turn after I played Doomsday (Yes, I passed.), he topdecked into Merchant Scroll, got Flash, and won before I got to my turn. Well, them's the breaks.

Match Standing: 1-2
Tournament Standing: 1-1

Round 3: Versus 5C Fish (!)

Game 1 - I thought I was playing Landstill with Shocklands instead of duals (!), but I was apparently mistaken. At some point, he tried casting Meddling Mage, and he named Tendrils even before he gave me priority. I was tempted to let it through because I had a Desire pile on my Doomsday stack, anyways (I can always bounce Meddling Mage after Researching for some Chains.), but I Forced it. I was holding Four FOW's that game, so it didn't really matter...

Game 2 - This was even worse for him as he didn't even resolve a Standstill against me at all. He Misdirected my Unmask on my turn, and I promptly found "nothing" in my hand that was a nonland. Soon enough, I ate away at his hand, then went with Doomsday, cycle, Ancestral, Lotus, Ritual, Desire into R/D at around turn two or three.

Match Standing: 2-0
Tournament Standing: 2-1

Round 4: Vs. Another Sui Black deck

Game 1: Duressed him for Extirpate (It appears I had a lucky streak, going first on ALL six rounds.), then let him plop down Nantuko Shade on his second turn before I comboed him out with Doomsday and Brainstorm into the stack.

Game 2: Forced his Hypnotic Spectre, then proceeded to win on turn 1 with a Ritual-Will sequence.

Match Standing: 2-0
Tournament Standing: 3-1

Match 5: Versus Jeff Fontecha (FCG)

Game 1: He opened with Leyline of the Void. I opened with Doomsday and a Lotus Petal since I knew he would either Strip or Rishadan my land. I won on my turn 2.

Game 2: We took our time this game as all he had was Mogg Fanatic and Leyline. I comboed out on my second turn via Lotus Petal, Dark Rit, Doomsday, cycle into the stack, and win. I had Pacts in case he had REB's ready.

Match Standing: 2-0
Tournament Standing: 4-1

Match 6: Versus Faerie Fish

Game 1: I had trouble identifying what deck I was fighting first, but it didn't matter since I was picking his hand apart with Duress and Unmask anyways. I won via Doomsday, cycle into Stack, and win on the third turn.

Game 2: Same thing happened, except he had a Tormod's Crypt and a Spiketail Hatchling on his table. Neither helped him a bit, because this time, what I did was Unmask, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, hit threshold, Cabal Ritual, Doomsday, Mind's Desire my Doomsday stack, which had nothing but a Lotus, a Ritual, an Unmask, a Duress, and a Cabal Ritual. Tendrils was in my hand, actually.

Match Standing: 2-0
Tournament Standing: 5-1

After six rounds of swiss, I came in 2nd in the top 8, and the top 8 didn't bother playing it off. For reference though, the top 8 was composed of the following players and decks:

1 Esguerra, Allan - Manaless Ichorid (w/ Bazaars)
2 Fabie, Marcelle - Doomsday  (Semi-Powered)
3 Sales, Joseph Benjamin - Sliver Flash (Budget)
4 Dominguez, John Aries - Fish (w/ Drains, no Power)
5 Cariaga, Glenn - Hulk Flash (Powered)
6 Rodriguez, Andrei Jay - Fish (Budget)
7 Crisostomo, John Michael - Manaless Ichorid (W/Bazaar)
8 PORTER, JT - Platinum Angel Control (Semi-Powered)

I love Doomsday. While I am by no means the deck's creator, I have taken the time out to really use that deck almost exclusively in my tournament circles, and it's served me really well. I've also written extensively on it in our local forums, even making my own version of a primer for the deck. In a time where there's oodles of Graveyard hate from Leyline, Doomsday's natural ability to sidestep that is a godsend to me.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Since you have the Lotus, you can use Gush for 'free' kills, that is, only paying for Dday.

Ancestral
Petal
Black Lotus
Yawg Will
Tendrils

That's 9 storm if the only spells played that turn not from the pile are Dday and Gush.  That and insulating your land from strip/waste are the true strength of Gush.

You're playing a more comboish version of Dday than I am, but I do strongly recommend at least playtesting the Thoughtseizes in place of Unmasks.  You almost can't play control with Unmasks if only because of the massive loss of card disadvantage.

[mistervader]

Since you have the Lotus, you can use Gush for 'free' kills, that is, only paying for Dday.

Ancestral
Petal
Black Lotus
Yawg Will
Tendrils

That's 9 storm if the only spells played that turn not from the pile are Dday and Gush.  That and insulating your land from strip/waste are the true strength of Gush.

You're playing a more comboish version of Dday than I am, but I do strongly recommend at least playtesting the Thoughtseizes in place of Unmasks.  You almost can't play control with Unmasks if only because of the massive loss of card disadvantage.

I only run 1 Gush at the moment, though, but I'm sure I'd do that more often once I run two or more. I'll test Thoughtseize and let you know what I think, but my lack of a Mox means I prefer not spending mana for my disruption which was why before Flash came along, I was advocating a Pitch disruption base for Doomsday.

[AmbivalentDuck]

I've been trying out Street Wraiths online and I really dislike them: you lose the ability to play a control game plan.  The deck has an average mana cost around 2.2, meaning that Bob and Wraith both cost about the same amount of life to see an extra card.  The difference is that Wraith doesn't cost mana and enables faster combo kills, while Bob costs mana, potentially gives you many cards, and chump blocks.  I'm strongly favoring Bobs after testing.

I also think it's worth pointing out that the Ancestral kill Street Wraith speeds up still needs UB open.  So, off a nearly 'ideal' opening hand...say Underground Sea, Saphire, Ritual, Dday, Wraith, 2x discard/land/FoW/etc you *still* need to wait a turn to kill.  In my mind, that makes the non-misdirectable* and free Gush piles more attractive.  You can use your 1st turn black mana for disruption, and combo out much more safely turn 2.


*replace Ancestral with Brainstorm, Brainstorm puts the lands bounced by Gush into your library.  This is strictly better than the pile I showed you earlier for that reason.  If there's a leyline out:

Black Lotus (for UUU)
Ancestral Recall
Brainstorm
Lotus Petal (for G)
R&D -> Lotus, Ritual, Tendrils

[mistervader]

So if you had the option of running 4 Wraith, 4 Gush, would you rather run 4 Bob, 4 Gush?

Have you experimented with Quicken? It's functionally as fast as Wraith, but I preferred Wraith because it was actually providing beats for me against Fish and Sui Black.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Gush >> Wraith.  The question is *not* Gush.  You need to run at least 3.  The question is Bob or Wraith, and that's a question of meta.  If you can get away with combo in almost every matchup, stay Wraith.  If you need to be able to play control, play Bob.

I would never consider Quicken.  Why pay BBBU at end of turn when I can go off for BBB during my own turn?  It's not like an intelligent opponent will counter Dday.

Also, I think of LED as a completely dead card.  At least you can cast Development, and inconvenience most opponents with the results or FoW it out.

I don't know your meta, but my sideboard is mostly red for my meta.  Ingot Chewer, Pyroclasm, and EtW are some of my 'biggest' answers.  You might want to try out the Volcanics to help with Gushing.  And Extirpate is randomly brutal against recent Ichorid builds and some control/combo strategies.