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desolutionist
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« on: October 31, 2007, 06:25:14 pm » |
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I'm pretty sure I'm going to modify the Vintage restriction list for my next mox tournament. Which one is most interesting?
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A Papaya
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« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2007, 07:08:17 pm » |
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I'm pretty sure I'm going to modify the Vintage restriction list for my next mox tournament. Which one is most interesting?
IMO, restricting Gush would be the most interesting. We've seen restricted Gush and unrestricted Gifts already. We've seen unrestricted FoF and unrestricted Gifts (though not at the same time) However, we haven't seen both Gush and Gifts restricted at the same time. That could be somewhat interesting. Though unrestricting FoF and Gifts is certainly interesting...it'd be cool to see whether BBS or Gifts comes out on top, or if a hybrid deck is created. |
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Methuselahn
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« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2007, 07:24:59 pm » |
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Props to you for hosting an event and not feeling the need to adhere to a wotc sanctioned list. Personally, any of your choices seems fine.
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oneofchaos
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« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2007, 09:00:49 pm » |
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Unrestrict dream halls as well.
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Somebody tell Chapin how counterbalance works?
"Of all the major Vintage archetypes that exist and have existed for a significant period of time, Oath of Druids is basically the only won that has never won Vintage Championships and never will (the other being Dredge, which will never win either)." - Some guy who does not know vintage....
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diopter
I voted for Smmenen!
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« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2007, 12:46:19 am » |
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If we go down this road we might as well unrestrict Black Lotus, start with 8000 life points and play with a sideboard of Uno cards.
Vote: don't do anything
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LotusHead
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« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2007, 01:03:17 am » |
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If we go down this road we might as well unrestrict Black Lotus, start with 8000 life points and play with a sideboard of Uno cards.
Vote: don't do anything
I would be interested in seeing the results of this thing, and 4 Fact 4 Gifts 4 Gush sounds, well, broken. But that also opens the door for Ichorid/Fish/Shop/Jank to show it's face. It's experimental (obviously), but so are "Proxies". I wouldn't mind Gifts/Fact/Gush all unrestricted for this tourney (which I can't be at since I'm NorCal). (I didn't vote, since I'm not there, but that's my vote). There are some still kinda upset at Trinisphere getting restricted, and changing things up is kinda cool. I can't get local TO's to legalizes sets they day they come out, which is common practice with some East Coast tournies. (I didn't lobby for it very hard, but I tried once, and we only have 2 "venues" out here.) |
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RaleighNCTourneys
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« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2007, 01:03:28 am » |
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@diopter
That logic is BS.
Wizards messed up. That does not mean the vintage magic world is going to hell so we might as well start at 8,000. They messed up, it's not that surprising. If they don't want to fix the problem sooner, TOs should take action if players want that. Personally, I'd be more than happy to have Gush restricted at my events, and if this is something that people would want to see then I'd probably do it in the future.
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ARSENAL
If you play Vintage near Buffalo, PM me!
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desolutionist
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« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2007, 08:43:27 am » |
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If we go down this road we might as well unrestrict Black Lotus, start with 8000 life points and play with a sideboard of Uno cards.
Vote: don't do anything
If it will increase attendance, sure. |
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Yare
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« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2007, 09:35:19 am » |
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Gush seems like the obvious target to me. You could unrestrict Fact I suppose, but too many changes makes it hard to see what's going on. Then again, if you're just looking for fun and more chaos, changing more is the way to go.
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moxpearl
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« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2007, 07:30:29 pm » |
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My vote would be to have just Merchant Scroll restricted at your tournament. It would be interesting to see if that and the 9 sphere decks coming out cripple Gush enough.
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diopter
I voted for Smmenen!
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« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2007, 08:04:54 pm » |
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If we go down this road we might as well unrestrict Black Lotus, start with 8000 life points and play with a sideboard of Uno cards.
Vote: don't do anything
If it will increase attendance, sure. If you ran a Standard tournament instead you'd increase attendance too. If you ran a Yugi-oh tournament instead you might increase attendance. If you ran a poker tournament you'd really increase attendance. What you're doing is running a tournament that is not Vintage. Which is fine if that is what your player base wants - let's just be clear that your player base will not be playing Vintage (which means you probably shouldn't advertise in the Tournament section if and when you come around to it). Vintage is a very specific format regulated by a group (WotC) that actually has the authority/reputation/reknown to establish formats universally. |
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« Last Edit: November 01, 2007, 08:13:04 pm by diopter »
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desolutionist
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« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2007, 08:40:23 pm » |
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In modified vintage, doesn't the adjective "modified" change the specific meaning of vintage?
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moxpearl
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« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2007, 09:04:05 pm » |
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...and if you allowed proxies, you might increase at attendance too.
In all reality, this proxy vintage we play is in a technical sense, a casual not real format that has expensive prizes at tournaments. And, we've all agreed to this, because in the end, it did increase attendance and gave us a competitive and fun format to play. Theoretically speaking, if DCI's decisions (such as not allowing proxies) became extremely unsupported by the community, the "community" could create it's own format that we all could enjoy. It might be no different than a format such as Elder Dragon Highlander. Any case, I digress...in the end, I'm all for sticking to DCI's list, but that's not to say this "modified" vintage might be interesting to see. My decklist wouldn't change much, and I'm sure I would have just as much fun at the tournament.
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ELD
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« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2007, 11:30:56 pm » |
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If this event was in my area, I would not attend. Mongrel formats don't really offer much IMO. The best players/deck builders are not able to spend enough energy to crack an imaginary format. During Gift's hayday, Myriad Games held an event like this where Yawgmoth's Will was banned. The end result was an all Control Slaver finals. It was like going back in time 6 months, and playing with slightly worse decks. It is always a question of how to abuse the best cards available.
People complained about Control Slaver when it was the dominant deck. After that, it was Gifts. Now it is Gush decks. The restricted list is one of the few factors in a tournament that is beyond our control as a players. Spending time being concerned about it is beyond me. There is so much that we can do to improve our own skills and our understanding of the game. Learning match ups, tuning our decks, working on sideboard plans - there is not enough spare time in one persons life to completely prepare for tournament competition. There will always be opposing decks that are not fully understood, sideboard plans that have not been explored, and card choices not thoroughly analyzed. I would suggest to anyone who is caught up in worrying about the restricted list that it is simply not worth the energy. The time would be better spent becoming better players and acquiring a stronger grasp of the game.
In regards to the proxy issue, ownership of cards does not impact the actual game being played. Vintage is the format where your card choices are limited by the Banned/Restricted list. Proxies allow the list, and not monetary considerations, to be the determining factor in deck building. In that regard, proxies allow us to play actual Vintage, instead of Ghetto Vintage. When I sit down from across from a player in a proxy event, our personal bank accounts do not enter into the outcome of the game. Proxies have, without a doubt, made Vintage more competitive.
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Grand Inquisitor
Always the play, never the thing
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« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2007, 03:50:34 am » |
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Restricted List...Spending time being concerned about it is beyond me. There is so much that we can do to improve our own skills and our understanding of the game. Learning match ups, tuning our decks, working on sideboard plans - there is not enough spare time in one persons life to completely prepare for tournament competition. There will always be opposing decks that are not fully understood, sideboard plans that have not been explored, and card choices not thoroughly analyzed. I would suggest to anyone who is caught up in worrying about the restricted list that it is simply not worth the energy. The time would be better spent becoming better players and acquiring a stronger grasp of the game. QFT...HOWEVER, Some people want something different. Some people have a hint of casual in 'em. T1 is great because it's a collection of player types. If people want to have some fun, and Des things it'll increase attendance, I say experimentation is good. If it's a bunch of people lacking 'intestinal fortitude' because they've been beaten by Gush too often, grow a pair. I have a feeling it's the former. However, those people should observe that the 'yawgwill-less tournament' was won by control slaver. You can never go back. |
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There is not a single argument in your post. Just statements that have no meaning. - Guli
It's pretty awesome that I did that - Smmenen
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Shock Wave
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« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2007, 10:02:11 am » |
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If I was in the area I would definitely attend. We have several TOs in the GTA that run modified Vintage formats with great success (these tourneys get anywhere from 60-150 people turnouts) and they are an absolute blast to play in. The allure of these modified formats is that they are essentially "untapped", giving anyone a shot at breaking them. They offer something fresh to deckbuilders, and are a welcome break from Vintage in these parts.
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"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs even though checkered by failure, than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat."
- Theodore Roosevelt
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Matt
Post like a butterfly, Mod like a bee.
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« Reply #16 on: November 04, 2007, 04:57:58 pm » |
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However, those people should observe that the 'yawgwill-less tournament' was won by control slaver. You can never go back.
Actually you can, it's called Legacy.  |
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http://www.goodgamery.com/pmo/c025.GIF---------------------- SpenceForHire2k7: Its unessisary SpenceForHire2k7: only spelled right SpenceForHire2k7: <= world english teach evar ---------------------- noitcelfeRmaeT {Team Hindsight}
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Grand Inquisitor
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« Reply #17 on: November 04, 2007, 07:45:24 pm » |
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Actually you can, it's called Legacy. Legacy isn't old vintage, it's old extended. |
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There is not a single argument in your post. Just statements that have no meaning. - Guli
It's pretty awesome that I did that - Smmenen
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Smmenen
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« Reply #18 on: November 05, 2007, 11:41:56 am » |
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You can do whatever you want, but if your question is truly to do the most interesting, then unrestrict Fact.
Restricting Gush would change Vintage, but i don't think it would make it more interesting. It would be more boring.
I don't think that unrestricting Gifts would actually do anything. Gifts decks are just worse than GAT decks by a pretty substantial margin and would get flattened by Flash.
Fact or Fiction is probably going to become unrestricted in the near future. It's the one card that would actually make Mana Drain's good again.
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carlossb
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« Reply #19 on: November 05, 2007, 12:03:04 pm » |
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Fact or Fiction is probably going to become unrestricted in the near future. It's the one card that would actually make Mana Drain's good again.
Do you think that to make Vintage more interesting we should make MDrain's decks even more powerful? |
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Smmenen
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« Reply #20 on: November 05, 2007, 12:12:01 pm » |
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Fact or Fiction is probably going to become unrestricted in the near future. It's the one card that would actually make Mana Drain's good again.
Do you think that to make Vintage more interesting we should make MDrain's decks even more powerful? Mana Drain decks are doing very poorly at the moment. How many actual mana drains were in the Vintage Champs top 8 or the SCG P9 top 8? |
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Norm4eva
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« Reply #21 on: November 05, 2007, 09:46:59 pm » |
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Actually you can, it's called Legacy. Legacy isn't old vintage, it's old extended. It really fucking is neither. I can't believe people still say this after 2+ years. Anyway, the whole (Vintage) format's something WotC barely endorses, it's got a menial amount of B/R attention, an admittance to inherent brokenness and a cardpool that's shrinking as quickly as it's growing. Why not experiment with the format? It's not like someone's up and decided to play chess with no rooks or anything. edit: derk |
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« Last Edit: November 05, 2007, 10:45:26 pm by Norm4eva »
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Moxlotus
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« Reply #22 on: November 05, 2007, 10:37:05 pm » |
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Actually you can, it's called Legacy. Legacy isn't old vintage, it's old extended. It really fucking is neither. I can't believe people still say this after 2+ years. Anyway, the whole format's something WotC barely endorses, it's got a menial amount of B/R attention, an admittance to inherent brokenness and a cardpool that's shrinking as quickly as it's growing. Why not experiment with the format? It's not like someone's up and decided to play chess with no rooks or anything. If by "barely endoreses" you mean has had multiple GPs and made it a portion at Worlds, then I would agree with you that WOTC has barely endorsed Legacy lately. |
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Norm4eva
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« Reply #23 on: November 05, 2007, 10:42:00 pm » |
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I was referring to Vintage.
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Nehptis
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« Reply #24 on: November 09, 2007, 02:09:41 pm » |
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If you want to shake things up, make them interesting and IMO keep a balance do this. I'd love to see this version of the meta-game. Call it my fantasy B/R list + Errata list.
Restrict Gush (never should have been un-restricted)
Restrict Flash (never should have been errated)
Restrict Merchant Scroll (Powerful tutors belong on the B/R list, esp Blue or Black ones)
Restrict Grim Tutor (See above)
Un-Restrict FoF
Un-Restrict Dream Halls
Make Mishra's Workshop "Legendary" (Shop and LoA should have been Legendary from the beginning)
The only unknown is how rampant Ich would be in this environment. I think it would still be kept in check Games 2/3 via SB hate. Good luck with your tourney!
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andrewpate
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« Reply #25 on: November 09, 2007, 04:18:28 pm » |
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Restrict Flash (never should have been errated) Why do you think Flash should be an exception to the general reversion of cards to their printed wording? |
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shadowofrpgfreak
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« Reply #26 on: November 09, 2007, 05:02:23 pm » |
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Restrict Flash (never should have been errated) Why do you think Flash should be an exception to the general reversion of cards to their printed wording? General brokenness would be my guess. Personally I don't see a problem with Flash, while the whole "oops I win" thing is annoying, there's plenty of ways to hate it out... and playing against Flash is some of the most fun games I've had, struggling to keep them from going off each turn despite their counters. But then, I personally like the format right now (or did... we'll see what Thorn does). |
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"In response to everything you just did, I Quicken Tendrils."
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Nehptis
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« Reply #27 on: November 09, 2007, 05:11:07 pm » |
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I don't think its design intent was to enable players to exploit CIP / Leave Play and Put into GY from Play abilities of creatures with large casting costs. By errating it Legacy was forced to ban it and eventually Vintage will see it restricted.
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diopter
I voted for Smmenen!
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« Reply #28 on: November 09, 2007, 05:53:13 pm » |
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If you want to shake things up, make them interesting and IMO keep a balance do this. I'd love to see this version of the meta-game. Call it my fantasy B/R list + Errata list.
Restrict Gush (never should have been un-restricted)
Restrict Flash (never should have been errated)
Restrict Merchant Scroll (Powerful tutors belong on the B/R list, esp Blue or Black ones)
Restrict Grim Tutor (See above)
Un-Restrict FoF
Un-Restrict Dream Halls
Make Mishra's Workshop "Legendary" (Shop and LoA should have been Legendary from the beginning)
The only unknown is how rampant Ich would be in this environment. I think it would still be kept in check Games 2/3 via SB hate. Good luck with your tourney!
These are bad suggestions. Let's not start errataing and banning cards for no good reason. |
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Nehptis
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« Reply #29 on: November 09, 2007, 06:50:05 pm » |
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Wow did you miss the point of this thread! First, a reply of "this is a bad idea" without any reasoning behind your comment is poor board etiquette. 2nd, there is a good reason for these sugestions, the Tourney host asked for suggestions!
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Poll
