[Article] The Whole Nine Cards: Lorwyn in Vintage

[Jank Golem]

I would be grateful to hear any comments or discussion about my article The Whole Nine Cards: Lorwyn in Vintage, a Lorwyn set review for Vintage.

[Zieby]

Nice Article.

I think you are right with all nine cards.

And Thorn its impact will be large, very large. For (Storm)Combo and Gush based decks he's a pain in the ***SS

Greetz Arjan

[hauntedechos]

just my 2 cents as a fish player

the cards introduced will force players to be mindfull of what they feel are strong meta choices and what is a flavour of the release so to speak.  I know that my choice is 1-2 thought seize in a u/w/b based deck.  mirror is still up in the air as i preferr the chance of mana on the board over cards in a yard to power my beatstick, but again, it's just my 2 cents worth.

If Gaddok is to see decent play in Fish, we will see a rise in Orlove's WTF build to facilitate it.

cheers
Mike

PM's welcome

[Fubar]

Thx for taking the time to write the article.

I think Thoughtseize v duress will be analyzed to death for awhile, but people seem to miss the best part of these sorceries in T1, seeing your opp. hand.

[hauntedechos]

I think that seeing your opps hand is the baseline support for BOTH cards.

The argument lies in, the life total consideration.  Duress gives me the ability to force counter magic, however I cannot snag "fish style" creature disruption.  TS, gives me the same, but I CAN snag creature disruption.  I already lose to Bob flips, how many "lose 2 life" Duress effects do I NEED, to combat the current creature heavy win conditions vs. what I can afford to lose on top of Bob effects.

This is from a "fish" players POV


cheers
Mike

[Jank Golem]

Thanks for the all the responses.

On Mirror Entity it is important to remember that it is only mana intensive the turn you cast it. Once Mirror is on the board you can use your mana to cast disruption pieces until you are able to alpha strike the opponent. Even if you are waiting for the alpha strike Miror Entity can get the job done faster than Grunt or Goyf. The initial mana cost is a drawback and to support it and other high costed disruption pieces Fish decks may revert to running off color artifact mana. In my personal opinion Mirror Entity will be played in Fish decks to speed up their clock.

Thx for taking the time to write the article.

I think Thoughtseize v duress will be analyzed to death for awhile, but people seem to miss the best part of these sorceries in T1, seeing your opp. hand.

That is another interesting factor to consider with Misdirection on Thoughtseize. The Misdirection player gains information by seeing the opponents hand and protects the information of the contents of their hand. The information is gained from Duress effects is useful but it is not as important as the discard effect. For example you don't see Vintage players running Spy Network because information alone does not win games. In the end comparing Thoughtseize and Duress is difficult and complex, but in the current creature heavy environment I think Thoughtseize wins out.

[Moxlotus]

The Misdirection player gains information by seeing the opponents hand and protects the information of the contents of their hand

No, he doesn't.

I fail

[shadowofrpgfreak]

Nice article, and I definitely agree about Thorn. Shop decks were already on the rise again (so I had heard, don't get many chances to see the meta for myself, stupid west coast...), and Thorn allowing the formation of 9sphere.dec is only going to make it worse. Until, that is, Fish, Goblins, and most importantly of all Ichorid shift into view to combat Thorn. That's what I really like about Vintage... the meta always seems to go in a cycle, with what is dominant and what beats it constantly rotating, as the dominant decks are pushed out by decks that beat them, which in turn become the dominant deck. And then you have new sets that pop out a little baby like Thorn and throw a wrench into the whole thing, starting a new cycle of decks =P People are gonna hate me making this comparison, and I know I'll get yelled at by someone for it, but Gifts did the same thing. *attempts to block flying tomatoes and shoes*

As for the second major card, Thoughtseize, I'm gonna go with hauntedechos on this one. While 8 Duress seems attractive, Fish seems to prefer spread out disruption, meaning 8 is just too many. It'll boil down to "can I afford to lose this life" vs "it hits creatures". Doubt many other decks will be using Thoughtseize unless Thorn forces an even more aggro-heavy meta than we have. Maybe Fish can run all 8 between main and board though? Just a thought.

Teeg I'm skeptical about... he's been argued about in about 5 threads now, so the major points have been covered: colors present a problem, ability is nice depending. We'll see if a deck can really get around his cost without hurting itself in other ways, he might be powerful then. Mirror Entity... never even realized that card would be thought about in Vintage, but now it's got my attention. It'll be interesting to see if it impacts the meta at all, even as just a little surprise now and then. Hey, stupid thought... Mirror Entity + EtW! Yeah, I know, I should just stop talking.

Well, that's my 2cp, ignore it, argue it, agree with it, whatever ya want.

Was typing along, hit preview, and Moxlotus posted. Actually, the MisD player DOES get to see the Thoughtseize player's hand, because they have to reveal it, rather than just look at the targeted hand.

[Jank Golem]

Nice article, and I definitely agree about Thorn. Shop decks were already on the rise again (so I had heard, don't get many chances to see the meta for myself, stupid west coast...), and Thorn allowing the formation of 9sphere.dec is only going to make it worse. Until, that is, Fish, Goblins, and most importantly of all Ichorid shift into view to combat Thorn. That's what I really like about Vintage... the meta always seems to go in a cycle, with what is dominant and what beats it constantly rotating, as the dominant decks are pushed out by decks that beat them, which in turn become the dominant deck. And then you have new sets that pop out a little baby like Thorn and throw a wrench into the whole thing, starting a new cycle of decks =P People are gonna hate me making this comparison, and I know I'll get yelled at by someone for it, but Gifts did the same thing. *attempts to block flying tomatoes and shoes*

As for the second major card, Thoughtseize, I'm gonna go with hauntedechos on this one. While 8 Duress seems attractive, Fish seems to prefer spread out disruption, meaning 8 is just too many. It'll boil down to "can I afford to lose this life" vs "it hits creatures". Doubt many other decks will be using Thoughtseize unless Thorn forces an even more aggro-heavy meta than we have. Maybe Fish can run all 8 between main and board though? Just a thought.

I agree that Thorn will help Stax, Fish and Goblins but I do not see them overcoming Gush. Gush decks have so much sheer power it is difficult to push them out of the metagame because their power also gives them extreme flexibility. Gush decks have and can compensate by running Tarmogoyf and Hurkyl's Recall which circumvents a lot of counter Gush strategies those decks have. Tarmogoyf adds yet another creature to the already heavy creature environment, making Thoughtseize even better. Not all Fish decks will want 8 Duress effects, but I could see builds emerging based around Cabal Therapy, Duress, Thoughtseize. Even Gush decks will want Thoughtseize because it has a relevant target against all of the top archetypes. Against Stax you hit Welder, against Fish you hit 1/3 of their deck, against Flash you take Hulk, and against GAT you take Dryad/Psychatog. The life loss is a factor that is most relevant against decks with a fast clock, decks that run creatures. Thoughtseize can take these creatures and slow down the opponent's clock, counteracting the life loss. Thoughtseize is a very metagame dependent card, and right now the metagame is shifting in it's favor.