Counterbalance

[Whamme]

I did some thinking about type one, after a rather poor performance at yesterday's tournament. (I have excuses, this is not the place)

I played mono blue control thanks to underestimating the quality of cards I could borrow (I could have built more standard decks, but could not find back to basics for mono-blue, and I didn't leave myself enough time... this is not a mistake I will repeat!).

(I usually practice with someone else's deck, which obviously is not an option when they're playing in the event)

Anyway. Mana Drain was... underwhelming. Sure, my deck had design flaws that made it worse, but it was too easy to play around. Also, 'pay extra mana' counterspells? Underwhelming. Sometimes they have 17 mana and two cards in hand. Or at least are timetwistering while floating some mana. Or. or. or.

Duress is one option, but I _really_ liked Chalice of the Void for 1. Plus I had an idea...


Duress is good because it's proactive. You don't have to have all the mana available at once, you can just run it out there and it'll deplete their hand.

So, I thought... Counterbalance. It's like Mana Drain, in that it's a counterspell with a little 'extra', only it gives card advantage, not mana acceleration. Oh, and it's immune to various countermeasures that work on Drain. Also, in type one, having a land on top DOES hurt them. So in theory, it seems fine, and after all, it was good in Legacy Flash.

So, here's my deck idea:

R Black Lotus
R Lotus Petal
R Mana Vault
R Mox Emerald
R Mox Jet
R Mox Pearl
R Mox Ruby
R Mox Sapphire
R Sol Ring

4 Flooded Strand
6 Island
4 Polluted Delta

(-1 of the above. Island? Fetchland? Mana Vault? Or maybe Divining Top?)

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Sensei's Divining Top

R Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
R Fact or Fiction
R Timetwister

R Mystical Tutor
4 Merchant Scroll
R Tinker

4 Arcane Denial
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
1 Trickbind

1 Echoing Truth
R Time Walk

1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Karn, Silver Golem
1 Triskelion

It is mono blue because I couldn't decide what to do with other colours if I did want to run them. It does not need to remain mono blue.
It runs Arcane Denial because Denial is a fine counter when you're stopping combo (it resets their storm counter to zero if they can't go off, and they usually blow enough cards that the card advantage they regain is insufficient), it stops bombs acceptably (and non-conditionally) and it can "cycle" in such a way as to net drawing two cards while avoiding having to discard at EOT (even when playing a spell that your own Chalice stops).

Oh, and Trike is there because he stops Flash kills while he swings in for the win, and Karn is there to be a third win condition (the deck may be light on said; suggestions/thoughts?) that disrupts their mana.

So. What do people think?

[Shock Wave]

Arcane Denial is absolutely awful. I would say with 99% confidence that the card has no business seeing play in any competitive Vintage deck. Certainly, your rational for including it in your list does not convince me that your project might be that rare instance in which Arcane Denial actually might belong. Replace it with Mana Leak, Thoughtseize, Duress ... hell, replace it with basic islands. 

[Everrid1234]

It seems like a first turn goblin lackey without FoW-backup means that you lose.....
You won't find the Tinker fast enogh very often.

[LUPO]

This deck looks like it is screaming for Trinket Mage.  I have been playing around with porting the deck from the last extended pro tour into type 1.  It has been an interesting experience.  Not sure if it will pan out, but it is worth a look.  I would also recommend Repeal.  It can gain you some valuable tempo while you are setting up your combo.  Black is also nice for D Confidant, Duress and tutors.  I had also thrown in green for goyfs, but they may get the Ax.

[Dante]

Karn isn't a win condition unless they have no creatures or you have some artifacts to animate (when blocked your Karn will be 0/8).  Also, chalice = 1 doesn't seem so hot in a deck that wants to cast Brainstorm and Diving Top over and over.

Other than Ancestral, what good is Merchant Scroll going to grab?.

I don't think Timetwister works in this deck - you're reloading your opponent.

I see a couple different directions to test out - add Thirst for Knowledge for some draw (replace M. Scroll) OR add some sort of draw (TFK or Gush) and add some Masticores (original or Razormane).  Definitely add some sort of removal other than 1 bounce spell (more bounce, powder keg, etc).

This seems pretty raw so I'm going to move it into the Improvement forum.

[Whamme]

Arcane Denial is absolutely awful. I would say with 99% confidence that the card has no business seeing play in any competitive Vintage deck. Certainly, your rational for including it in your list does not convince me that your project might be that rare instance in which Arcane Denial actually might belong. Replace it with Mana Leak, Thoughtseize, Duress ... hell, replace it with basic islands. 

Countering your own random 0cc artifact makes it a slightly cheaper (sorcery) TFK.  Countering their spell makes it more or less a more mana intensive FoW (in terms of putting you at -1 card). Countering a chalice-locked brainstorm? Still a draw three, discard one effect.

I'm viewing it as a draw spell that can counter things if it must, not as a pure counterspell.

WRT to the other comments:


Trinket Mage would be nice to include. Especially since it does patch up that Goblins weakness (it's for 10-proxy, though, so I don't expect a huge amount of Goblins... most people who show will show because they have 50/60ths of a broken T1 deck)

Black Splash is interesting. I'd rather run Chalice than duress, though, and they do clash.


Masticore... I've found Masticore disappointing. Probably good vs. Goblins, but losing 1 card per turn is painful, particularly if there's a Goyf stopping the 'Core from swinging in, and they've boarded in Pyroblast... I prefer trike.

Karn... yeah, good point.
Scroll finds Mystical Tutor if it's not been locked out... dammit... it also finds FoF. Or a counter...
Timetwister... yeah. I had a reason, but on reflection it was dumb.

Okay, I'm sold on black.

-4 Merchant Scroll
-1 Karn, Silver Golem
-1 Timetwister
-1 Sensei's Divining Top
-2 Island
+1 Demonic Tutor
+1 Vampiric Tutor
+2 Trinket Mage
+1 Triskelion
+1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Yawgmoth's Will
+2 Underground Sea

[Shock Wave]

Countering your own random 0cc artifact makes it a slightly cheaper (sorcery) TFK.  Countering their spell makes it more or less a more mana intensive FoW (in terms of putting you at -1 card). Countering a chalice-locked brainstorm? Still a draw three, discard one effect.

I'm viewing it as a draw spell that can counter things if it must, not as a pure counterspell.

The applications of Arcane Denial that you've described above are not novelties. People have tried justifying its inclusion based upon the seemingly "versatile" nature of the card, and have long ago concluded that it is extremely poor.

You should review your logic: "Countering your own 0cc artifact makes it a cheaper, sorcery-speed Thirst for Knowledge".

First of all, the strength of Thirst for Knowledge and most other good draw spells lies in the fact that they are instants. Second, Thirst does not require that you invest 2 spells in order to achieve its desired effect. Let's say you cast your 0cc artifact, respond with Arcane Denial, and your opponent stops your Arcane Denial? Whoops, looks like you just 2-for-1'd yourself. Arguing that Arcane Denial has a useful ability that allows you to possibly gain card advantage at sorcery speed, at the cost of 1U and 2 spells is not a strong case for its inclusion.

Oh, and please, for the love of sweet baby Jesus, do not compare Arcane Denial with Force of Will. You will bring pain, suffering, and deep sorrow to any who have the misfortune of stumbling across your analogy. It's just the wrong thing to do.

[Whamme]

Countering your own random 0cc artifact makes it a slightly cheaper (sorcery) TFK.  Countering their spell makes it more or less a more mana intensive FoW (in terms of putting you at -1 card). Countering a chalice-locked brainstorm? Still a draw three, discard one effect.

I'm viewing it as a draw spell that can counter things if it must, not as a pure counterspell.

The applications of Arcane Denial that you've described above are not novelties. People have tried justifying its inclusion based upon the seemingly "versatile" nature of the card, and have long ago concluded that it is extremely poor.

You should review your logic: "Countering your own 0cc artifact makes it a cheaper, sorcery-speed Thirst for Knowledge".

First of all, the strength of Thirst for Knowledge and most other good draw spells lies in the fact that they are instants. Second, Thirst does not require that you invest 2 spells in order to achieve its desired effect. Let's say you cast your 0cc artifact, respond with Arcane Denial, and your opponent stops your Arcane Denial? Whoops, looks like you just 2-for-1'd yourself. Arguing that Arcane Denial has a useful ability that allows you to possibly gain card advantage at sorcery speed, at the cost of 1U and 2 spells is not a strong case for its inclusion.

Oh, and please, for the love of sweet baby Jesus, do not compare Arcane Denial with Force of Will. You will bring pain, suffering, and deep sorrow to any who have the misfortune of stumbling across your analogy. It's just the wrong thing to do.

Decisions made "long ago" are the kind of thing that need reviewing. The format is no longer the format it was "long ago", as proven by the fact that the direct port of an older deck I used was extremely weak.

Tell me. When was the 'final decision' made? What decks have been created since?

I've been following the format since before combo was a significant factor ("good old days" of control vs control vs aggro/aggro control...). I haven't seen anyone try to actually use it in any of the intervening years. In fact, the only mention I recall was an article that said "this is card disadvantage. card disadvantage BAD" [which ignores the fact that counterspells provide a *tempo* advantage, which is important and can be weighed against the card advantage]

I have, however, spent last Sunday watching my Mana Drains be impossibly U mana intensive in their casting cost. (Okay, technically, I didn't own them)

I also spent it cursing the lack of draw. And cursing Mana Crypt coin flips, but that's an easily soluble problem.


Duress provides half the effect of a counterspell (eliminating the particular threat), but it doesn't provide the other half unless it takes the ONLY threat from their hand (namely, blunting their tempo).

[Shock Wave]

Decisions made "long ago" are the kind of thing that need reviewing. The format is no longer the format it was "long ago", as proven by the fact that the direct port of an older deck I used was extremely weak.

Tell me. When was the 'final decision' made? What decks have been created since?

The format has evolved. This is true. Decks have changed. This is also true. There are also accepted, universal truths about this game. For example, Black Lotus is a good card. That hasn't changed since the inception of the game, and neither has the fact that Arcane Denial is a very poor disruption choice. I've provided reasons why your analogies are not sound, and you've responded with the following:

I've been following the format since before combo was a significant factor ("good old days" of control vs control vs aggro/aggro control...). I haven't seen anyone try to actually use it in any of the intervening years. In fact, the only mention I recall was an article that said "this is card disadvantage. card disadvantage BAD" [which ignores the fact that counterspells provide a *tempo* advantage, which is important and can be weighed against the card advantage]

There is actually a reason why you haven't seen the card being played. Competitive Vintage players have accepted that it is a terrible disruption choice. We don't need to playtest Mountain Goat in order to understand that it is awful. Likewise, we've come to accept the shortcomings of Arcane Denial and have replaced it with more effective, efficient choices.

Duress provides half the effect of a counterspell (eliminating the particular threat), but it doesn't provide the other half unless it takes the ONLY threat from their hand (namely, blunting their tempo).

You're implying that Duress is the only possible replacement for Arcane Denial, when it is only but 1 of numerous, better choices. Mana Leak and Remand immediately come to mind.

You seem to be fixed on playing the card, so best of luck to you in that endeavour. I just wanted to make sure you're aware of the reasons why it is not played and accepted as very poor disruption.

[Methuselahn]

It is mono blue because I couldn't decide what to do with other colours if I did want to run them. It does not need to remain mono blue.
It runs Arcane Denial because Denial is a fine counter when you're stopping combo (it resets their storm counter to zero if they can't go off, and they usually blow enough cards that the card advantage they regain is insufficient), it stops bombs acceptably (and non-conditionally) and it can "cycle" in such a way as to net drawing two cards while avoiding having to discard at EOT (even when playing a spell that your own Chalice stops).

All of these things can be true regarding Arcane Denial, however, that function is still too narrow and thus, too impractical to make the card worthwhile.

I haven't seen anyone try to actually use it in any of the intervening years.

People test things and not post their results all the time. 

...I also spent it cursing the lack of draw...

I'm not sure you can have your cake and eat it too.  Arcane denial is not a counter and a draw engine.