[Deck] Super Long

[ErkBek]

@ Storm vs. Flash: Storm put 4 people in the top 8 in one weekend where at most it made up 5% of the metagame. Flash has only put 1 person in the top 8 at a large US tournament. Coincidence?

Flash is better in theory, Storm is better in practice.

I really wish people would stop playing Flash though because my record vs. it is 0-2, knocking me out of 2 of my last 3 starcity's. I've been turn 1 killed by it twice by awful players (once with FoW backup). /end rant

Someone above had mentioned, they feel the deck is "bomb light".  Is this because the pilot is supposed to be disrupting the hand rather than baiting out counters? 

That's exactly what you are supposed to do most of the time. Disrupt the hand and protect your first bomb. If that bomb is Will, Necro, or Bargain the game isn't really left to chance. I actually find myself tutoring for Bargain quite a bit in with this deck since often times I find I have the mana to play it on turn 3-4, so I don't have to leave the game to chance with a Draw 7.

-----
Anyone tested Gifts in the deck? I've been liking it so far in a the UB build, where Lou ran a Merchant Scroll.

I see Paul originally ran 1 Grim Tutor, but that's been cut now. Is that because you're fetching out Islands early making it basically impossible to cast Grim Tutor without a Ritual? or is there some other reason.

[Lou]

Anyone tested Gifts in the deck? I've been liking it so far in a the UB build, where Lou ran a Merchant Scroll.

I haven't tested Gifts, but it certainly sounds like it could be good. What are your piles looking like most of the time? (If there is a most of the time.)

I see Paul originally ran 1 Grim Tutor, but that's been cut now. Is that because you're fetching out Islands early making it basically impossible to cast Grim Tutor without a Ritual? or is there some other reason.

The reason I cut the Grim was because of the lack of Rituals. I was only running five in Chicago, and I didn't think it would be enough.

[ErkBek]

Anyone tested Gifts in the deck? I've been liking it so far in a the UB build, where Lou ran a Merchant Scroll.

I haven't tested Gifts, but it certainly sounds like it could be good. What are your piles looking like most of the time? (If there is a most of the time.)

Pretty much just Tutors and Lotus is all I've found with Gifts. Though Gifts for Bargain, Necro, DT/Tinker, and Lotus sounds nice.

[Smmenen]

I liked Grim Tutor in this deck.

And Cabal Ritual is incredibly good in a deck like this.   It has fetchlands, 7 Brainstorms, and 6 Duresses.   Cabal Ritual is better than off color moxen most of the time and much better alot of the time.

[Lou]

And Cabal Ritual is incredibly good in a deck like this.   It has fetchlands, 7 Brainstorms, and 6 Duresses.   Cabal Ritual is better than off color moxen most of the time and much better alot of the time.

I'm up to two, but I don't know if there is room for three.

[ErkBek]

I liked Grim Tutor in this deck.

And Cabal Ritual is incredibly good in a deck like this.   It has fetchlands, 7 Brainstorms, and 6 Duresses.   Cabal Ritual is better than off color moxen most of the time and much better alot of the time.

I like Cabal Rit too, but I like my Mana Vault I'm running as well (so I've got stuff to Tinker away). I agree though Cabal Rit usually is played with Threshold and makes huge mana.

Any thoughts on cutting Lotus Petal for another Cabal Rit? They do typically work well together, but Petal does kinda suck overall. Or we bumping the 25 mana sources up to 26? I think I'll try going Petal-less in favor of another Cabal.

[hauntedechos]

@ Team Meandeck:

understanding the concept of disrupt the opponent, and protect your first bomb.  what number of Duress effects would you like to see in an opening grip?  Is there a situation where it's acceptable to tutor for a duress?

I realise these may be fairly basic questions to Storm players, but I'm trying to get into it and need some guidence.

@Kobefan:

I see your comparison of Flash to Storm.  With storm, you're looking at a turn 3-4 win, with proactive disruption.  Flash is looking for speed with reactive counters..and lots of them.  Is it fair to say, that the proactive disruption is what makes Storm better in practice?

[tomjoad]

Is it fair to say, that the proactive disruption is what makes Storm better in practice?

I think it's a combination of proactive disruption and the fact that Storm usually has a solid back-up plan to deal with hate. First, while Yawg Will is the easiest route to victory, a Leyline of the Void doesn't prevent Storm from going off. LotV is a must answer for Flash, however. Also, Storm can usually Tinker-->DSC as an alternate win condition, where as Flash can only combo out or hardcast a Hulk.

[OwenTheEnchanter]

I dont think there is a logical reason why Flash cant have its cake and eat it too aka have your retarded combo + proactive disruption.

[DoubleDrain]

Anyone tested Gifts in the deck? I've been liking it so far in a the UB build, where Lou ran a Merchant Scroll.

I haven't tested Gifts, but it certainly sounds like it could be good. What are your piles looking like most of the time? (If there is a most of the time.)

Pretty much just Tutors and Lotus is all I've found with Gifts. Though Gifts for Bargain, Necro, DT/Tinker, and Lotus sounds nice.

I used to run the Gifts in my list, but cut it due to the fact that:
1) it is often very hard to hit 4 mana w/out a ritual or sol ring/lotus
2) gifts seems to under perform in a deck with out recoup
3) i hate 'giftsing' away my 2 best cards (unless i am holding yawg's will. then gifts is the nut)

in conclusion, gifts is great if you are running more rituals, or the full set of moxen(with or without tolarian academy), and if you love the "gifts for 4 tutor" plan.  otherwise, it seems a little weak in the builds I have tested...

Believe me, I wish I could get gifts to work in this deck, but it seems like I haven't found the proper build for the card yet (MDG anyone??_)

[ErkBek]

1) it is often very hard to hit 4 mana w/out a ritual or sol ring/lotus

This deck runs 25-26 mana sources, just like MDG used to. If you don't mind blowing a ritual to cast Gifts casting Gifts should never be a problem. In fact, if how in the world do you expect to win the game if you aren't assembling 4 mana?

2) gifts seems to under perform in a deck with out recoup

Ever play Gifts in Empty Gifts w/ Tendrils? I actually think Gifts is stronger in that deck than in MDG (though the deck is not made to run 4 Gifts the singleton gifts is very powerful). Just because Recoup isn't in the deck doesn't mean you can't have a very powerful gifts.

3) i hate 'giftsing' away my 2 best cards (unless i am holding yawg's will. then gifts is the nut)

Holding Yawg Will or a Tutor for it isn't that far fetched considering the deck runs 4 Tutors, the Yawg Will itself, and plently of draw fixers.

If you are concerned about thinning your deck of all the good cards Gifting for Necro, Bargain, and 2 other cards (let's say Demonic and Ancestral) makes a lot of sense because

1) If they give you Necro + Bargain, you'll resolve one of them for sure. Necro/Bargain will always be one less dead card to hit now when paying your life away.
2) Losing Demonic and Ancestral isn't that big of a deal when you have Necro or Bargain out b/c you don't mind playing card disadvantage tutors at this point to find will since these put you so far ahead on cards.
3) If they don't give you Necro or Bargain you got DT and Ancestral which should win you the game.

Obviously gifting for Necro, Bargain, DT, and Ancestral isn't really an option at a lower life total and its not your primary game plan which is Yawg Will killing them. Gifting for Necro and Bargain usually would be either because you can't set up a lethal Will kill or you think they are sandbagging a counter or something like Extirpate.

We all keep talking about cards in the deck, but just so we are all on the same page it's helpful to post a decklist every now and then, so here's what I'm running with at the moment:

Lands 13
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Island
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea

Acceleration 12 (no Petal or LED, 5 artifacts to tinker away + Lotus)
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mana Vault
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual

Protection 13
4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection
4 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
1 Hurkyl's Recall

Kill 2
1 Darksteel Collossus
1 Tendrils of Agony

Draw and Fixers 8
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
1 Time Walk

Bombs and Tutors 12
1 Imperial Seal
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Tinker
1 Memory Jar
1 Timetwister
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Necropotence

Sideboard 15
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Pithing Needle
1 Extirpate
1 Chain of Vapor (Considering another Echoing Truth here since the "chaining" effect isn't as useful)
1 Echoing Truth
1 Slaughter Pact
2 Pact of Negation (not sure these are needed, though occasionally I board out DSC and Hurkyl's vs. Control decks netting me a ridiculous 14 protection spells)
1 Platinum Angel

One idea I've been tossing around in my head has been having somewhat of a Transformational board into something like Owen's Platinum control to dodge hate that aggro decks will certainly throw at you. Post board you can have up to 8 counterspells and 6 Duress effects as it is right now.

@ Steve: Do you plan to write an article about this deck anytime soon? If not I would like to since I think one is warranted for the community at large. I'd definitely run it by Meandeck for critiquing.

[carlossb]

@ Steve: Do you plan to write an article about this deck anytime soon? If not I would like to since I think one is warranted for the community at large. I'd definitely run it by Meandeck for critiquing.

Your 'Storm Returns' article at mtgchicago.com was fantastic, another one focusing on one list would be great!

[hauntedechos]

@Eric

I agree that an article SHOULD be written about this.  No matter who writes it, though I do feel that it would be nice to see someone other than Steve, writing quality articles.  I love Steve's pieces and I think he does a fantastic job of it.  I would simply like to see another persons views on things, as more perspectives help the thought, as a whole, grow.

[ErkBek]

@ Steve: Do you plan to write an article about this deck anytime soon? If not I would like to since I think one is warranted for the community at large. I'd definitely run it by Meandeck for critiquing.

Your 'Storm Returns' article at mtgchicago.com was fantastic, another one focusing on one list would be great!

I didn't link anyone to the article because I wasn't pleased about the fact that I had written a somewhat time sensitive article the Monday after Chicago to find it was bumped back a week in favor of some top 8 coverage. If the article would have been up within a few days of the tournament it would be far more valuable than the full week delay it received.

[hauntedechos]

@Kobefan:  I think the article was decent in terms of listing the deck, the explanations behind it and your personal commentary.  If anything the article could have just used some more of your personal insight into each of the lists, possible tweaks etc.  Some of which you already did, I was just looking for more of a personal writing style flavour.  I would imagen that comes with exp. and I am certainly NOT in any position to sy whats what.  I am just thinking of some of the prominent writers and how you can always tell it's an article from writer "X".

In the end, I guess you're right Eric, the timing could have been better, had you been given the chance etc.  But really, there is nothing wrong with the article that I cold see anyways.  And really, I'm looking at it, as a model for the suggestions you've given me for my own article.  Thanks again Eric.

Keep up the good work man.

cheers,
Michael

[ErkBek]

If anything the article could have just used some more of your personal insight into each of the lists, possible tweaks etc.  Some of which you already did, I was just looking for more of a personal writing style flavour.  I would imagen that comes with exp. and I am certainly NOT in any position to sy whats what.  I am just thinking of some of the prominent writers and how you can always tell it's an article from writer "X".

I didn't feel like the article was my best piece by any means, but I thought it was very good given the quick turnaround of under a day. When it sat for a week the expediency meant nothing and it looked like a low quality piece. Whatever. Hopefully it shouldn't happen again.

In regards to having my own writing style, I think it's because I haven't taken the time practicing and studying how to write better. The only writing classes I've ever taken outside of high school requirements is business writing which I feel largely why my writing in straight forward and concise. Really it's kind of funny that I actually write articles considering the disdain I had for writing anything a few short years ago, which led me to choose a profession that I'd be working with numbers and not words.

Steve is obviously a very talented writer and I doubt I'll ever write nearly as well as he does. I bring a different point of view, additional content, and I plan not to hold any tech back for my pieces.

Anyways, back on topic. How about the list I posted earlier? Some things worth discussing:

٠Mana Vault - Does is belong or can the deck run Tinker with only 5 artifacts to Tinker away?
٠Time Walk - I view Walk as a "why not run it" card, since the deck has 13 lands to play, it's good to have with DSC, and you can occasionally set up a turn where you cast Walk and a Draw 7 together, allowing you to untap with your new 7 cards before the opponent does.
٠Gifts - More discussion on the format's most recently restricted card.
٠No Lotus Petal - This card sucks in here right? I was never impressed with it
٠No Grim Tutor - I'd like to try fitting one of these in, but I'm not sure what I'd cut for it.
٠No Mind's Desire - Seems fine with me since the deck struggles to build storm at times.
٠No Red, No Wheel - I try to use Draw 7's as a last resort in here. Yawg Will, Necro, and Bargain are my primary paths to victory, though by no means the only path. Wheel is the best draw 7 though, but I feel it compromises the manabase too much, when you can run such a healthy UB manabase.
٠The sideboard. I'd be interested to hear from Paul since his board does look thought out, though I felt it is lacking. The Pyroclasm and Fire/Ice on Paul's board and Smother's on Lou's for what exactly? Magus of the Moon isn't much of a problem with the rock solid manabase in my build. There isn't much fish these days, but killing a Dark Confidant immediately would be nice, but I'm not sure it's the role you want to take in a Tendrils deck. Meddling Mage and Gaddock Teeg are both dealt with by Echoing Truth just fine, plus Echoing Truth can deal with annoying stuff like Thorn and Chalice. I've got slaughter pact on the board to pretty much kill anything for free on combo turns. 

[Ged]

@ Steve: Do you plan to write an article about this deck anytime soon? If not I would like to since I think one is warranted for the community at large. I'd definitely run it by Meandeck for critiquing.

Your 'Storm Returns' article at mtgchicago.com was fantastic, another one focusing on one list would be great!

Signed. If it'll be half as good as your gws long primer, it'll be a worthwhile read.
Just do it, Eric.

[hauntedechos]

I'm really happy that I've been able to catch this thread as it develops!  It's really helping me with undertanding Storm and how to play it as well, thanks guys!.

Anyways, about Petal. I think one side of the debate over Petal, is a debate over running R or not.  I don't personally own a  Mind's Desire, so I feel I HAVE to run Wheel.  If you're not going to run Wheel, then Petal could potentially be cut.

Here's another way of looking at it.  If you really love the solid manabase, then Petal only adds to that stability, if even for only one use.  It's another card that adds to storm for free, and with a Will, that's 2 storm 2 mana, all whilst keeping your manabase solid and for free.  Meandeck Tendrils had the mana fixers, and I think Petal represents that sort of mana fixer.

Should Mana Vault be cut?  If we are to cut Petal as well, we have 5 artifacts to Tinker.  If Tinker is going to be a serious Maindeck option, then shouldn't we keep the support for it high?  I guess my thoughts on this, are the same as Petal, in a sense.

I guess for myself, I just want to keep stability and higher %s, I know that is contradicted by me running wheel; but then I also run Burning Wish to access my SB and recoup cards consulted/Willed away.

let's see how the conversation progresses.

@Eric If you were to make thoes cuts, then you could add in your Grim.

[Lou]

Anyways, back on topic. How about the list I posted earlier? Some things worth discussing:

٠Mana Vault - Does is belong or can the deck run Tinker with only 5 artifacts to Tinker away?
٠Time Walk - I view Walk as a "why not run it" card, since the deck has 13 lands to play, it's good to have with DSC, and you can occasionally set up a turn where you cast Walk and a Draw 7 together, allowing you to untap with your new 7 cards before the opponent does.
٠Gifts - More discussion on the format's most recently restricted card.
٠No Lotus Petal - This card sucks in here right? I was never impressed with it
٠No Grim Tutor - I'd like to try fitting one of these in, but I'm not sure what I'd cut for it.
٠No Mind's Desire - Seems fine with me since the deck struggles to build storm at times.
٠No Red, No Wheel - I try to use Draw 7's as a last resort in here. Yawg Will, Necro, and Bargain are my primary paths to victory, though by no means the only path. Wheel is the best draw 7 though, but I feel it compromises the manabase too much, when you can run such a healthy UB manabase.
٠The sideboard. I'd be interested to hear from Paul since his board does look thought out, though I felt it is lacking. The Pyroclasm and Fire/Ice on Paul's board and Smother's on Lou's for what exactly? Magus of the Moon isn't much of a problem with the rock solid manabase in my build. There isn't much fish these days, but killing a Dark Confidant immediately would be nice, but I'm not sure it's the role you want to take in a Tendrils deck. Meddling Mage and Gaddock Teeg are both dealt with by Echoing Truth just fine, plus Echoing Truth can deal with annoying stuff like Thorn and Chalice. I've got slaughter pact on the board to pretty much kill anything for free on combo turns. 

- Mana Vault - The more I test the UB build, the more I can see this replacing LED, especially if you are running Gifts, which I have not tested yet.
- Time Walk - I am always underwhelmed by the performance of Time Walk in here. It cantrips and I maybe get an extra land drop. Obviously its not terrible, but I think there may be a better card for this slot.
- Gifts Ungiven - Again, I haven't tested this yet, but I will shortly, and I'll post my thoughts later.
- Lotus Petal - I can not imagine cutting this card from the deck. I am a huge fan of Lotus Petal, and I am never unhappy with it. It allows for much easier comboing out. Not win more, just win easier.
- Grim Tutor - I've already stated why I think Merchant Scroll goes in this slot.
- Mind's Desire - I agree with you here Eric. The card just doesn't perform in the deck.
- No red - Seems like the right play. I have been testing against lots of Wasteland/Spheres, and not getting mana fucked has been huge.

@Eric - I think we are just a few cards off. I have +1 Merchant Scroll, +1 Lotus Petal, -1 Gifts Ungiven, -1 Duress. I will try the Mana Vault in place of LED.

@hauntedechos - I am not sure why you HAVE to run WoF if you are not running Mind's Desire. Neither are really necessary. Can you explain yourself more?

[hauntedechos]

@ Lou  thanks for considering me =)

on topic, for me, it's simply a matter of having more than necro, bargain and Jar as my draw bombs.  I'm going to guess that it's really a matter of me being very new to Storm combo.  On the other hand, I've never been dissapointed to see a wheel either top decked or drawing into one while comboing off.  I've also never been unable to summon R because I use SSG and chromatics in my (obviously janky) list, in addition to the lotus petal.

[SyntheticAngel]

I have done a little bit of testing with Gifts since it has been brought up in here. And my conclusion is that it isn't right in this build, I cut the LED for Mana Vault to help with Gifts, and I have to say I am not a fan. To me it seemed to clog up the deck. I drew it and it would have been better just to draw a DT or something like that. For now I am going to stick with pretty much a combination of Paul and Lou's builds.

Brennen

[ErkBek]

I drew it and it would have been better just to draw a DT or something like that.

Other than Necropotence, Demonic Tutor is the best card in the deck. So.......um.....how do I say this.....ah...since you can't run more than 1 DT you've got to run other cards that are good too.

[tomjoad]

I was pretty skeptical about Gifts in this deck myself. Gifts is my all time favorite card, so I really wanted it to work, I just didn't think it looked very good here. I am glad to say that my mind is changed. Being able to Gifts up a bunch of mana or tutors has meant the difference between winning and losing more than once.

I think that, aside from being a good deck and fun to play, this deck could make a great intro-to-Vintage deck for otherwise experienced players. Due to the lack of Moxen and (potentially) Time Walk, this is very easy to proxy. As far as competitive decks go (Non-Ichorid Division) I can't think of anything that would be cheaper to build for somebody who wants to start playing t1.

[GUnit]

To me, labeling this as a storm combo deck seems inaccurate. I tried to play this deck the way I'd normally play a combo deck and found that it plays more like a control deck with necropotence, yawgmoth's bargain, tinker and yawgmoth's will as its win conditions, and dark rituals instead of mana drains.

[ErkBek]

I tried to play this deck the way I'd normally play a combo deck and found that it plays more like a control deck with necropotence, yawgmoth's bargain, tinker and yawgmoth's will as its win conditions, and dark rituals instead of mana drains.

That's pretty accurate I'd say.

25 Mana
12 Counters/Duress effects

That's the same ratios as old MD Gifts.

To me, labeling this as a storm combo deck seems inaccurate.

I think the deck should still be labeled as Storm since it is a slower storm deck. It's not Long though since you associate Long with very fast storm.

I think the deck should be called The Ponder Storm since you can call it TPS. If Meandeck wants it to be called Super Long that's fine too.

I'll be writing an article about the deck. If all goes well it'll be up next Tuesday.

[Liam-K]

@ Time Walk:  more than most Storm players I've noted I seem to have widely varying opinions of this card depending on the list.  In this deck it looks really good... 7 duress 7 brainstorm 4 topdeck tutor 6 ritual and Tinker?  Time Walk is so huge in the midgame when you have 3-4 mana and are playing for marginal advantage.  Playing TPS/Gifts style decks is all about small exchanges that push you towards being just 1 spell ahead, then making that spell end the game.  The first part is as often about tempo as it is about card advantage... even if you tap half your mana to Time Walk, taking a turn and a half when you're half a turn ahead wins.

(3-4 mana)
Your hand is duress, ponder, ritual, mystical.  You rip Time Walk.
Your hand is ritual, gifts, tinker, your opponent reads drain + force but taps below UU with tempo advantage.  You rip Time Walk.
You chain some small spells into juice, but can't afford to go off because you cast the earlier spells.  But you have Time Walk.

I know we all played pitch long to death where you needed your entire supply of permanent sources to configure your hand into something you could throw at your opponent all at once, but that's not how contemporary storm decks operate.  Duress makes it so you can't bank on doing something big turns 1-2, so you need to do design your deck to do small stuff so that come turn 3 you're not buried.  Time Walk fits this curve really well.

[Daenyth]

I very much agree on the subject of Time Walk. I find that in this slower build, it's been great. In addition to the majority of the times you cast it for marginal advantage, it also has such good synergy with both DSC and EtW. I'd be willing to cut it, but I don't think that it's the "60th card".

Right now I've just been goldfishing this list, and it seems pretty decent. I'm waiting for a chance to get to test it against a person. (Feel free to pm me if you have Apprentice or Scroll Rack and want to play).


12 - Mana
6 Fetchlands
4 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
1 Island

13 - Acceleration
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual

8 - Drawing & Manipulation
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
1 Ancestral Recall

14 - Bombs & Tutors
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
1 Mind's Desire
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Memory Jar
1 Tinker
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Grim Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll

11 - Protection & Disruption
4 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
4 Force of Will
1 Hurkyl's Recall

2 - Kill
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Darksteel Colossus

I'm not an expert, and some of my card choices I'm still not sure about, so please feel free to discuss anything.

I'm not that satisfied with DSC main, but I wanted to cut the red, and the only other option I could think of was to go 2xTendrils.
Mind's Desire has been a true bomb every time I cast it, and when I didn't want to or couldn't, I had it as FoW fodder or just fed it to Brainstorm.
I would like to try and fit 2xMis-D and maybe a Chain of Vapor main, but I don't know what to cut. I'm reluctant to cut Hurkyl's, because it seems that the deck is already 1cc heavy.