Control Slaver

[hitman]

Recently, Slaver hasn't been played much.  Every now and then, I look up other Slaver lists and contact well known Slaver players to see what suggestions they may have for current lists.  As I was looking up Slaver lists, I found that very few have been played since the beginning of the year most anywhere. 

The reason I've started this thread is to see what the community could add to the deck, especially now that the format is diverse enough to take advantage of.  With the Workshops seeing more play, combo has had to adjust by sacrificing speed for consistency; half of the combo decks play a draw engine that isn't realistically online until turn two.  Aggro-control has almost completely changed its base from U/W to U/B/fill-in-the-blank.  Pure control decks that don't die to Echoing Truth/Engineered Explosives are few and far between and Workshop based decks are incredible matchups for experienced Slaver players.

In my experience, Control Slaver is a very fair deck that most decks can legitimately outplay but can, in turn, be abused by good players to make any matchup even to favorable through good testing.  The list I'm playing at the moment is the result of a new metagame, experience, or lack of, and the fun I get out of Slaving people.  I'm convinced there's no play more fun than activating Mindslaver.

3 Duress
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Echoing Truth
2 Fire/Ice
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will
2 Goblin Welder
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Sensei's Diving Top
1 Mindslaver
1 Triskelavus
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Black Lotus
5 Moxes
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
4 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Tolarian Academy
5 Fetchlands

Duress - Some say play four; others say you only need two.  In my experience, three is just right.  I don't really want it in my opening hand unless I'm on the play but in certain matchups, like Landstill, it's invaluable to me. 

Sensei's Diving Top - This card has gotten me out of so many gamestates where I've been behind.  It drops to Thirst to be welded in, it makes my topdeck tutors instantly playable, you can put the "draw a card" ability on the stack and respond by welding it to outdraw your opponent, etc.

2 Fire/Ice - I, largely, use this card for an extra cantrip in control mirrors.  It kills Confidants and Welders handily.  It trumps opposing Colossus'.  It is, in my opinion, the perfect utility card.  I was playing one Engineered Explosives and one Fire/Ice but in too many matches, Engineered Explosives was not the card I wanted to see in a million years.  For my utility slot, I don't want a card that dies to one of the two cards I never want to see played against me, Null Rod and Dark Ritual.  I ended up just moving the Explosives to the sideboard as a two-of.

Darksteel Colossus - I understand the cards shortcomings but since I started mainboarding Duress, it has become easier to protect.  There have been several times when I've just wanted to end the game when I've established control and Colossus facilitates this very well for me.  I was playing Empty the Warrens but I ended up hating it.  There's too many times it's not good enough.  I know it's easier to cast but not for the same effect.  Wasting three cards in my hand for a marginal Warrens has cost me games I shouldn't have lost.  Against an aggro metagame, Darksteel trumps most things.  Sometimes a first or second turn Tinker just ends games that Triskelavus wouldn't do for me.

I like to keep my sideboard to myself because I don't think sharing it helps anyone.  I use to copy lists card for card and it just made me a worse player.  There's something to be said for figuring things out for yourself.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.  I hope control players take a look at Slaver again.  I, honestly, believe it can have the tools to beat any deck if piloted and metagamed correctly. 

[LennonMarx]

It's odd to see you talk about having fun, mate. Maybe I'm having some kind of impact on your thinking. 

In regards to the deck (and you know how much I know about slaver), your land seems off. I understand that you need black for early Duresses, and the brokenness of the tutors and Will is well documented, but are 4 Underground Sea's really needed. It seems like you could go down to 3 Seas, and then either play a 3rd Volcanic Island for added ability to play red out of the board (Mostly looking at Shattering Spree here) or play a 4th Island/6th Fetch for greater resilance to Wasteland.

[hitman]

I know it seems wrong to run four Underground Sea.  In practice, I can't tell you how many times having that Volcanic Island in my hand turned it to crap.  Really, red's only in here for a minimal splash.  Even against decks that pack Wasteland, I haven't had problems playing around it.  It's not a card you want to lead with most of the time.  Unless you have supporting Moxes, you're committing a whole turn to doing practically nothing.  I can still tap my land in response for mana but you would sacrifice your whole turn to just get rid of my land.  My hand has to have Brainstorm, Recall, or just be amazing to keep a one land hand.  If you open with Wasteland, I don't usually care. 

[Kowal]

Some of your card choices seem pretty questionable, and are against the grain of tried and true control slaver.  Some deviations can lead to better deckbuilding, but I really feel like the elements you've decided to include don't really do that.

Given that I'm one of a handful of people who actually give a shit about Control Slaver (and have in spite of this Gush nonsense) I'd suspect there's quite a bit that could be discussed here.  However, if you've not already seen this thread then you should probably take a look.  I don't consider it 100% optimal as is, given the increased presence of Stax in the metagame.  However, it's a solid enough list to keep up with GAT, and it's probably a better starting point than anything else is right now.

[hitman]

To be honest, Fire/Ice functions much like I imagine Night's Whisper does in your list.  I'm able to tap a land on my opponent's upkeep, though.  In the early game, which is when you most need Whisper online, that's functionally a Time Walk and a card for me.  Between that and its other applications, I've found the card amazingly versatile and key in certain matchups, such as Forino Black to keep them off their Confidants.  Dark Ritual really gives me fits sometimes.  The ability to just punch through a counterwall because of the busted mana it produces is insane.  Dark Ritual and Duress gives combo powerful plays and I can't afford to counter all of them.  Fire/Ice gives me an alternate way of attacking decks without having to commit so much mana or card advantage in the early game to countering spells I can handle in different ways.  That way I can use my, otherwise, pitched blue spells to do what I need them to do.  Though you play different cards than I do, it seems to me that they function similarily.  I just like Fire/Ice because it has added versatility over Night's Whisper.  I am in no way questioning your card choices.  Just explaining mine better. 

I've tried Platinum Angel and most other robots in Slaver and, without the mana denial plan, I think running anything besides Darksteel Colossus just makes my Tinker too weak.  There have been several times when I just needed a big body on the field and all I had in my hand was a Tinker.  Most of the time, Triskelavus does whatever I need done; othertimes, he's just not enough beef.

Can you explain Future Sight?  I know it's a powerful effect but seems hard to cast and may not get the job done when you need it.  If I've already got control of the game, isn't there something better than a six casting cost enchantment? 

Thanks for the thread link.  I'll keep Platinum Angel and Night's Whisper in mind if/when I change the deck.

[Mophead-Masquerade]

I agree with hitman about the 4 Underground Seas. In the testing I have done with this build of slaver, it usually isn't dissapointing to see multiple seas. It has allowed me to play Duress,  and then play DT, yawg will, etc. with out worries of opposing counterspells, thus putting me in the perfect position to win the game. Of course most of my testing was on MWS, so it is hard to gauge the playskill of the opposing player. Also, I haven't been dissapointed with colossus or fire/ice. They are both so good against goblins. You almost always have at least a second turn tinker, and grabbing colossus before they have a chance to set up an amazing board, well I think it speaks for itself. Fire /Ice is also good in that matchup, and as already stated helps other matches by killing welders, confidants, and other pesky creatures.

[Wollblad]

The list looks pretty solid although I would perhaps have opted for a Merchant Scroll over the second Fire/Ice and with all combo floating around, I would probably go for the Angel rather than colossus.

Anyhow, I'm concerned with all Leylines floating around in the current metagame. An eraly Leyline forces you to go for the Tinker plan. Both Yawgmoth's Will and Welders are shut down and you have only an echoing truth to deal with it. Have anyone more than I found this to be an issue and what possible solutions are there?

[Mophead-Masquerade]

Well I just tested against GAT and Long, and I don't think you need the angel. Colossus just finished the game, and if my clock was slowed by getting an angel they could've regained control. Long and GAT have enough draw and tutor to get a bounce soell in 4 turns. I won most the games, and the games I lost were so close. These were some of the best games I've played in a long while. At any rate colossus is good, especially when he is under all the protection this deck has to offer.

You control the early game enough to where the tinker plan is usually a safe option anyways. Against a lot of decks packing leylines you want to win fast anyway because those decks will kill you fast if they are going to win. Even though you are restricted to the tinker plan or hard casting your big guys[ask lennon marx it happens quite often] it is often how you win games anyway. I casted darksteel twice tonight. One time without academy.Sure thirst loses a little value under leyline but hey you can't have it all.

On another note I'm not saying welders aren't good in fact they are amazing, I did use them tonight and their worth is obvious. That guy will win you games, but he is not necisarilly needed to win all games. Anyways you have enough tutor or draw to get your 1Echoing truth if you need to.   

[hitman]

The only deck I don't want playing Leyline against me is Ichorid.  One of Slaver's strongest lines of play against Chalice at zero is to play the Tormod's Crypt into the Chalice and just weld it back in.  With Leyline out, this isn't an option.  I'm forced to bring in eight cards against Ichorid because they can just mutilate your hand or board with Chalice, Unmask, and Cabal Therapy before you can establish your board position.  I can't run eight dedicated slots for the matchup so I've tried to make half of them generic answers.  I have four Leyline, two Pithing Needle, and 2 Engineered Explosives.  I use the Engineered Explosives against aggro-control mainly and the Pithing Needle for Wasteland packing decks, Belcher, sometimes Fish if I see Umezawa's Jitte or Aether Vial, etc. 

To be honest, I may just be playing Merchant Scroll wrong.  I've definitely tried it and found it clunky.  I hold my tutors for when I'm going to win or need an answer.  That's how I played Scroll, too.  It seemed whenever I could Merchant Scroll, I could just use any of my other tutors better.  I saw Brian Demars' list and noticed he played one Misdirection.  I figured he must only play one because he has Merchant Scroll and must Scroll for it early in the face of so many decks that just chased an early Recall with their own Scrolls.  I tried this approach and Duress was very hard to play around.  My reasoning for playing extra cantrips, Fire/Ice, is that if I have to Force of Will and they Force back, or if they Duress me first, I can still play Ice and net just one card less if they Scrolled for Recall.  Scroll for Recall and cast it is minus 2 cards, plus 3, netting one.  By just playing Ice, I'm relatively at the same spot they are and I don't have to commit so many counters.  If all they did was Duress me, they took only took one card and netted one of their own.  If I Force of Will and they Force back, they're only functionally ahead by one card.  Granted, they hand pick a card if they Duress but if my opponent is resolving Recall, they should generally be ahead of me.

I'm considering Platinum in the side right now.  I understand the arguments for it and against Colossus but he's been everything the deck doesn't have.  Platinum Angel is so easy to play around if you don't over extend yourself.  Honestly, one of the benefits of a stronger Tinker is that an opponent may try to over fight a counter war to stop it and if it hits, they have to deal with it.  Platinum Angel is a slow clock and gives the opponent time to find an answer.  Just by landing the Colossus, they have to use valuable resources to get rid of it while I play my regular game and take control.  Against Flash, if it's gotten to the point where I'm casting Tinker, the game's pretty much won anyway.  I can definitely understand Platinum against Ichorid, though.  As combo has slowed down, I've been trying a Counterbalance in the side.  With most lists playing Ponder, Counterbalance for one seems particularly effective and much harder to play around than Platinum Angel.

[Kelme]

" Scroll for Recall and cast it is minus 2 cards, plus 3, netting one"

Its actually only minus one considering that you dont get card disadvantage since the recall is not technically in your hand. So scroill=recall, play recall, draw three is +2 card advantage.

Merchant scroll is really good in slaver. If you have welder and robot in hand out it nets you gifts ungiven or tfk to throw it in the graveyard.

You alsoplay full acceleration as opposed to the new trend of playing like 3 or 4 moxen + lotus meaning you are likely to play turn 1 scroll for force which i think is the essential play with good old slaver. Turn 1 merchant into drain is also a good play if you deem it possible to survive enemys turn 1.

Kowal argues very convincingly that you can get the turn 1 mox and land card back if you use nights whisper.

The thing, or paradox, is that both cards are good utility cards. However Merchant Scroll seems stronger if you need turn 1 fow or drain, whereas are those cards in hand, nights whisper seems better. I think that one of the reasons why kowals slaver build makes a lot of sense in my opionion is because of duress. Duress makes you exchange, in whatever context it might be, the best card in their hand for one of your cards.

I see little room for merchant scroll in kowals build.

So lets start a slaver debate focusing on these points

Merchant scroll/nights whisper?

Duress?

Number of welders?

Good vibes
Kelme 

[Kowal]

I made the argument recently that any deck in type one needs to be running 4 Duress in it for this metagame.  With the addition of Stax it's pretty clear at least one deck can get away without it, but I think Duress is still actually a pretty good play against them.  Thoughtseize may be better given the ability to snatch their welders (which is usually an irrelevant maneuver, but when your gameplan is welders of your own...) but I digress.

The important part is that you can easily be put in the position where a turn one sphere makes room for a turn one lock piece, and you quickly lose.  You can also be in the position where a turn one lock piece becomes impossible for you to break free from because they play a turn two sphere.  If you can force a Duress through, you can snatch whichever part of the equation has not yet hit the table.  And considering how frequently the newer Stax lists will see their spheres, it's not entirely unlikely that they will have to opt not to blow up your Seas because they will risk locking themselves down.

I say 4 Duress (effects) are essential right now.  If you expect a lot of the newer stax (and it can be devastating) you can't afford to drop below two welders.  Were I to pilot Control Slaver in a mystery metagame tomorrow, I would maindeck two welders and sideboard two more.  I would also seriously consider some mox monkeys. 

I argue heavily against Merchant Scroll, because the math for even Ancestral begins to get wildly distorted with a single Sphere on the table.  Paying 3UU for 3 cards seems pretty terrible, whereas 2B for two is still quite reasonable.  I also argue against Merchant Scroll because every non-Stax deck in the environment runs 4 Duress effects (or more).  On top of this, most blue-based control decks are running some Misdirections as well (even freaking bomberman!) and they can make Scroll->Ancestral even worse than Scroll->Thirst.  Nothing quite like paying 3UU to remove two blue cards from your deck and -maybe- profit a card.  Ew.

There are certainly still arguments for Fire/Ice as hitman is defending.  However, unless your environment is heavily polluted with Stax or Fish, I wouldn't consider them over a dedicated draw slot like Night's Whisper.

[Kelme]

"Thoughtseize may be better given the ability to snatch their welders (which is usually an irrelevant maneuver, but when your gameplan is welders of your own...) but I digress."

"There are certainly still arguments for Fire/Ice as hitman is defending.  However, unless your environment is heavily polluted with Stax or Fish, I wouldn't consider them over a dedicated draw slot like Night's Whisper."

There are some points I would like hightlight regarding these points. First of all hitting welders seems really strong to me. Often I find that having more welders than the opponet are of essence when wanting to defeat stax. Thoughtseize may also be considering following the logic from my next line.

I dont see fire/ice being relevant anymore. I do not see a lot of traditional fish anymore. I see lots of big green creatures backed up by an large numbers of disruption. I know, from solid experience, that fire/ice is one of the most versatile answers there is, but some solution must be found to solve large green creatures.

As for the robots, what do you guys play? Is sundering titan still viable the amount of gush decks that roam about?

When I decide for which robots I generally goes for cards that affect the game immidiately either from forcing interaction or a dramatic change in gameplay from my opponent OR putting me in a better position than before

My package has been this for awhile: Triskelion, Memory Jar, Tormods Crypt, Sundering titan and mindslaver. Now that i think about it Ive come to the following conclusion.

--Triskelion is barely playable. Sure, he kills occasionally and provides some clock. But he is ultimately replaced by Duplicant.

--Sundering titan: theres a lot of non-basic island cards running about, however considering gush, he might not make the cut. He might be replaced with the angel.

--Tormods crypt. I am not quite sure. Any ideas?

--Mindslaver. No reason to discuss. Mindslaver is the evil card.

--Memory jar. Memory jar makes welder so crazy, it also gives you ways to dump lots of mana and gets you out of very difficult situations. Will most likely never be replaced.

"I would also seriously consider some mox monkeys."

Why is that? It is my general experience that moxen are more rarely played than before. But mox monkey is a personal favorite of mine, so I am just looking for a solid rationale.

So, according to you Kowal, in the stax mirror you think merchant scroll is bad..but if I follow your argumentation, only provided that a sphere is in play and barring the open exposure to wastelands. What if you were on the play? Wouldnt you prefer to know you had the force for any welder or hefty lockpiece.
Also for sideboarding against stax I play 3x hurkyls and 2x rack and ruin, and merchant scroll does get you hurkyls recall. In general I think the longer you prevent turn 1 spheres the better off you are.

There are three main areas that I agree with you on:

For a draw engine under a sphere Nights whisper is the better choice.
4x duress/thoughtseizes must be included if you are to have a chance against any non stax deck.
The number of welders and maybe also 2 welders in the sb. 

I look forward to seing your answers...

Good Vibes
Kelme


   

[hitman]

I hate Thoughtseize.  It randomly rewards lazy Slaver players for bad plays.  The card has certain applications, as in defending an early threat in a combo deck.  When I'm playing Slaver, taking a creature is almost always the wrong play.  I have so many ways around creatures it's not even funny.  Triskelavus, literally, does most everything Slaver needs done except having a big body on the field for those instances you just need to win in two turns.  The thing Slaver traditionally has problems with is an overload of early resources by your opponent.  The correct play would be to take a card that stops my development or stops their development.  If I'm playing Kolowith's aggro-control list, do you really think I should take a creature or a spell that hurts my development?  The current environment is all about tempo.  What are you getting out of every turn with whatever build you're playing?  I can understand Night's Whisper.  It makes sense tempo-wise.  If I'm not advancing my own gameplan at a faster rate than my opponent, I will generally lose.  Taking a creature plays into their own gameplan.  While you're taking a creature, they're styming your board position and hand quality with Stifle and Duress.  I'll be honest with you.  I'll take 18 damage from a Tarmogoyf before I sacrifice my ability to manipulate my deck with mana or card quality. 

I've mentioned why I don't like Merchant Scroll but more accomplished players than myself have sworn by it.  I'll leave it at that.

The first robot you should play is Triskelavus.  He is hands down the perfect robot for the job.  The ablility to make numerous chump blockers or attackers, establish Slaver lock, amazing synergy with Sensei's Diving Top and Welder, etc., etc. make it so versatile.  I only play three big artifacts because I don't want potential "dead" cards in my hand most of the time.  I really don't even want one to pitch to Thirst until I'm ready to abuse a Welder or Will.  It gives the other player extra options to beat you with.  I always play Tormod's Crypt in Slaver.  It's a very efficient utility card for the most hated zone in Vintage as well as having great synergy with Welder, Tinker, and Will.  Memory Jar seems like another "lazy" and potential "dead" slot to me.  Outside of the necessary large artifacts, you don't want to play more because as you increase the number of large artifacts played, you, obviously, increase the odds of drawing it in your opening hand where you never want to see it.  Three is a good number because it doesn't lend itself to multiples in opening hands and is quite easily drawn into.  The only two undebatables for me are Mindslaver and Triskelavus.  There are legitimate arguments not to play Colossus over another large artifact.  I should say that Sundering Titan is pretty underwhelming right now.  Stax has largely converted to 5C as the most played variant and blue-based decks mostly play Gush.  Goblins and Flash mainly run off basic lands without the need for duals.  Ichorid plays no non-basic land. 

As for the Stax matchup, I think you highly overestimate Stax's ability to overwhelm you.  If you consider most mainboards, they have a very fragile draw engine.  As long as your opening hand can handle their plays in some fashion, they will inevitably run out of options and be in topdeck mode.  My gameplan is to mulligan into either Force of Will or Duress and keep them off their Welders.  I've found this plan extremely effective.  Postboard is a cakewalk.  I side in a third Volcanic Island, 2 Pithing Needle and 2 Shattering Spree.  I name Wasteland with Needle and own the board with Shattering Spree.  The reason I board a Volcanic is that in every other matchup, I almost never want to see Volcanic over Underground Sea.  Thirst for Knowledge is an all-star in this matchup as it gives you excellent outlets for Drain mana into more Thirst or Drains.

As for the little green men, just play two Engineered Explosives in the board.  It's very hard for them to fight through Explosives at two.

I hope these comments are helpful.  I think Night's Whisper is the most legitimate option I haven't honestly considered.

[captreynolds]

Hitman --

I have been running Slaver for several months now with varied degrees of success.  I do agree with Mophead-Masquerade about your mana base.  You should rely a lot more on your red and blue, than black.  I have been running 3 Volcanic Island and only 2 Underground Sea. Mox Jet, Lotus Petal, & Black Lotus should get you the rest of the Mana you need.
Also I used to run 4 Welders, but I dropped it to 3 and replaced it with a "Mox Monkey". The monkey has been useful as a combo wrecker, and it allows me to get my own artifacts into the grave for welding.  Also I have been running 5 "Duress" effects (3xDuress 2xThoughtseize).
I put Fire & Ice in the SB in favor of Sword of Fire & Ice.  Sword of Fire & Ice can do many things.  It can protect a welder from bounce or damage, it can remove pesky Metalworkers, and it can draw you a card every turn.  I also like to equip it to a Platinum Angel, which effectively wins the game in three turns. 
Tinker usually grabs Platinum Angel but I also run Triskelion as well.  In the SB I run Sundering Titan & Empty The Warrens.  Between these and Mindslaver, Sword of Fire & Ice on a Welder I have all the win conditions I could ever want for.
For Draw I run Ancestral Recall, 3xBrainstorm, 3xThirst for Knowledge.  I also run Library of Alexandria as well.
In order to fit the extra "Duress" effects I was forced to put a Mana Drain in the SB.  I still have 7 counterspells however, and I usually board in 2 REB and the Drain for games 2 & 3.  (I have a control heavy metagame right now so this has been very effective.)  I have posted a decklist below with explainations next to each card for reasons that I run it.  My sideboard is posted as well.

Draw Engine
1x Ancestral Recall
3x Brainstorm
3x Thirst for Knowledge
(Sword of Fire & Ice and Library of Alexandria are also there as well.)

Control
1x Chain of Vapor
1x Echoing Truth
4x Force of Will
3x Mana Drain
3x Duress
2x Thoughtseize
3x Goblin Welder
1x Gorilla Shaman

Tutor & Utility
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Time Walk (Another attack with Trike or Plat. Yes Please more seconds)
1x Tinker
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Yawgmoths's Will (Yawgmoth’s Win need I say More)

Non-Mana Producing Artifacts

1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Mindslaver
1x Platinum Angel (Survive a Combo for the win)
1x Sword of Fire & Ice (Equipped to Welder, Platinum Angel or Trike is mean and Broken
1x Triskelion

Mana Base

Artifacts
1x Gilded Lotus ( I don’t own a Black Lotus, but this works well with Mishra’s Workshop)
1x Lotus Petal
1x Mana Crypt
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Sol Ring

Lands
1x Island
3x Volcanic Island
2x Underground Sea
1x Strip Mine (Strip Lock with Crucible of Worlds)
1x Seat of the Synod (Slaver Lock with Crucible of Worlds)
1x Tolarian Academy
1x Mishra's Workshop ( Enables you to hardcast artifacts without relying on Drains)
1x Library of Alexandria
2x Flooded Strand
2x Polluted Delta

Sideboard:

1x Empty The Warrens (Goblins, Combo, Stax)
1x Fire & Ice (Control)
1x Hurkyl’s Recall (Stax, Mirror)
1x Mana Drain (Control)
2x Pithing Needle (Stax, Combo, Mirror)
2x Rack and Ruin (Stax)
2x Red Elemental Blast (Control)
1x Stifle (Combo)
1x Sundering Titan (Fish, Combo, Mirror)
1x Trickbind (Combo)
2x Tormod’s Crypt (Yawg’s Will, World Gorger Dragon, Combo, Ichorid)


The only things this deck has lost to in the past month have been GAT, Stax, Mono/Suicide Black.  Those matchs were all close games as well.  Mostly I don’t face these in my Metagame.  I also usually win against Stax, but I do lose to it about 30% of the time still.

I have gotten much better at holding back and playing more cautiously with this deck.  It is a control deck, just a different kind of control.  If nothing else you can wait for a Slaver lock or fetch it with tutors.  Bringing Sundering Titan in from the board and equipping Sword of Fire & Ice to him is better than a Darksteel Colossus.  I don’t run Mana Vault because I usually cannot untap it. Mana Crypt I can weld out if it becomes too painful.  Duress and Thoughtseize are good choices to board out if you are playing 2nd.  I tried Triskelavus, but paying to remove it’s counters is too much effort for so little reward.  Thoughtseize does not need to get a creature to be useful.  It can just as easily get a Drain, Force or other spell.  Remember you don’t always needs to “Slave” someone for the win.  Slaver lock works with Seat of the Synod (Artifact Land) being welded out for slaver, after floating the blue, add three more mana & activate slaver.  Then with Crucible in play you play Seat as your land for the turn.  Gilded Lotus is good excuse to use Drain Mana. 

While I don’t know what is in your Metagame, I can tell you that this deck can be tweaked fairly quickly to match most metagames in about 10-15 minutes if you have the right cards available.  Please send me a PM if you would like more information, or want to discuss metagame strategies.

--

 
 

[hitman]

I've since updated my Slaver list to reflect Kowal's influences.  I've since moved Colossus to the board, cut Triskelavus, and added two Platinum Angels and Empty the Warrens.

4 Brainstorm
4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
3 Duress
2 Flexible (Pyroblast/Hurkyl's Recall)
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Empty the Warrens
2 Platinum Angel
1 Mindslaver
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Goblin Welder
1 Echoing Truth
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
5 Moxen
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Tolarian Academy
5 Fetchlands

4 Leyline of the Void
2 Pithing Needle
2 Rack and Ruin
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Pyroblast*
1 Hurkyl's Recall*
2 Fire/Ice
2 Flexible

Basically, I got sick of punting the GAT matchup and took Kowal's advice about Platinum Angel.  It changes the dynamic of the matchup dramatically.  I found that my gameplan was too linear with just two Platinum Angels so I added Empty the Warrens.  Several times, I would leverage games into a massive Will turn that didn't do anything as explosively as I wanted to.  Adding the single Empty the Warrens does everything I want an alternate win condition to do.  It handles bad matchups and is robust enough to just end games out of nowhere.  I've been holding onto Tormod's Crypt for too long and swapped it out for Engineered Explosives, too.  It's basically Kowal's list without Night's Whisper but a more potent Will.  I sacrifice massive card drawing for brokeness.

[diopter]

The traditional Slaver shell with Drains is too slow for GAT, and definitely way too slow for Flash. I experimented with Workshop Slaver with 2Spheres and was not impressed, until I decided to drop the Shops and play with Ancient Tombs. Wow, what a difference. The list I used was:

4 Goblin Welder
1 Mindslaver
1 Platinum Angel
1 Memory Jar

1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
4 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Tinker
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Imperial Seal

4 Force of Will
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Echoing Truth

1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
5 Mox

4 Ancient Tomb
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
2 Island
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea

Some notes:
- 2Spheres are better than Drains at fighting GAT. Tomb ensures that you can operate under Sphere lock.
- One might wonder why you'd want to play this over pure Workshop decks, and the answer is that you get to run Force of Will.
- I'm testing without Time Walk and Yawgmoth's Will. Both are really weak under your Spheres. Instead, Tinker is the bomb you lean on.
- Thirst for Knowledge and Brainstorm are ok, honestly Bazaar is probably a stronger draw engine but I don't want to give up Force of Will.
- The deck is really weak against aggro strategies, so the sideboard should contain some number of Pyroclasms.

[hitman]

I haven't stopped running Drains since Gush got unrestricted and I can honestly say Drains aren't a problem.  The problem with Drain decks is the lack of a strategically superior gameplan.  While my opponents would be dropping cheap creatures that just get bigger, I was wasting time fighting to get a big guy into play or a Triskelavus that was too little, too late.  With win conditions that are easier to get into play and can tie up a board state, I have a much improved matchup.  While my list may be weaker than yours against Flash, it's stronger against the rest of the field.  I'm not too worried about Flash and I have sideboard Leyline and Pyroblast to fight with game two and three.  These new Tarmogoyf based strategies are becoming more and more commonplace and you can't have a bad matchup to them either.  Where I play, the three most successful strategies right now are GAT, Workshop Aggro, and Tarmogoyf or Jotun Grunt-based aggro decks.  I don't think this is isolated to where I play either.  Storm and Flash decks should have a hard time right now.  Outside of the great hands that just get you there quickly, you'll have to fight through Sphere effects on one side and countermagic and Duress effects on the other.  Combo is too narrow right now.  Besides, I have four Force, three Duress, and two Pyroblast main for Flash.  Everytime I try to make my decks more defensively oriented, I get blown out more often because when you don't get your disruption pieces to stick, you're sitting there watching your opponent beat the crap out of you.  I've found it's just better to have an even more robust gameplan.

Against Workshop-based decks, how easily do you recover from Chalice at one?  Do you find Wasteland particularily strong against you?  Could you swap Imperial Seal for Engineered Explosives?  How have you been liking Memory Jar?  I tried it and it never seemed good enough for me.  Any thoughts?  Thanks for the comments.

[Metman]

I have been playing Slaver for a very long time always tinkering with it to find a list I like.  I'm running Crucible with an artifact land and a Gorilla Shaman (which may come out, I've been less then impressed with it since it doesn't solve Chalice at 1).  I've added a Top and a Magus of the Future and have had some amazing results with both.  Alone, Top is strong serving as a Brainstorm(ish) type spell every turn and obviously works well with Welder.  The Magus was reluctantly tested but found it to be the card that changes the game in Slaver.  I don't think this card could fit into a deck better than it does Slaver for one reason.  Slaver doesn't have to worry about over commiting and running out of gas like storm decks do.  With the drawing, shuffling, and manipulation Slaver is capable of, Magus will easily net you ten cards in the first two turns.  It isn't a win-more card either.  I remember playing Gifts Ungiven and/or Fact or Fiction in Slaver as another major draw/tutor spell.  Magus fits the role better than both those cards.  Sometimes the casting cost sucks but if it shows up in your hand on the third turn it will win you the game.  It turns the control mirror around and serves to enable the deck to draw so much that it is a great way to find the tools needed to solve the aggro and combo match ups. 

My only problem in testing now is Chalice at one.  If it comes down before a Welder is in play, I don't think I've ever recovered.  This is the reason Shaman may come out.  I need some ideas though to replace it.  I want another utility spell and have thought of playing R&R, Shattering Spree, F/I or even another bounce spell. 

[Zelow]

personally i think the crucible and artifact land slots can be switched out for better utility i mean ya it is allways fun to play a game against your self lol but how many times have you really needed to infinatly control your opponents turn with so many artifacts in these lists you will still be pulling off slavers at least 4 to 5 times and that is more than game ending the slots could offer you better control. going to magus of the future how easily have you pulled the thing out? personally i find it very clunky it dose work with drains really well but i think the 4 tfk's and 4 brainstorms + brokeness of slaver allready get you where you need to be but i do find the idea interesting and would love to see it used in a game.

[diopter]

I haven't stopped running Drains since Gush got unrestricted and I can honestly say Drains aren't a problem.  The problem with Drain decks is the lack of a strategically superior gameplan.  While my opponents would be dropping cheap creatures that just get bigger, I was wasting time fighting to get a big guy into play or a Triskelavus that was too little, too late.  With win conditions that are easier to get into play and can tie up a board state, I have a much improved matchup.  While my list may be weaker than yours against Flash, it's stronger against the rest of the field.  I'm not too worried about Flash and I have sideboard Leyline and Pyroblast to fight with game two and three.  These new Tarmogoyf based strategies are becoming more and more commonplace and you can't have a bad matchup to them either.  Where I play, the three most successful strategies right now are GAT, Workshop Aggro, and Tarmogoyf or Jotun Grunt-based aggro decks.  I don't think this is isolated to where I play either.  Storm and Flash decks should have a hard time right now.  Outside of the great hands that just get you there quickly, you'll have to fight through Sphere effects on one side and countermagic and Duress effects on the other.  Combo is too narrow right now.  Besides, I have four Force, three Duress, and two Pyroblast main for Flash.  Everytime I try to make my decks more defensively oriented, I get blown out more often because when you don't get your disruption pieces to stick, you're sitting there watching your opponent beat the crap out of you.  I've found it's just better to have an even more robust gameplan.

Against Workshop-based decks, how easily do you recover from Chalice at one?  Do you find Wasteland particularily strong against you?  Could you swap Imperial Seal for Engineered Explosives?  How have you been liking Memory Jar?  I tried it and it never seemed good enough for me.  Any thoughts?  Thanks for the comments.

You may be overestimating the strength of Drains. GAT can always Duress your Drain before you play whether you are on the play or on the draw. Or they can Misdirect it. GAT is very well equipped to win a counterwar.

As for Flash, old lists will face tremendous difficulty fighting hate but I've been testing 4-Ponder and 4-Gush builds and they add a lot of robustness. Flash is still really really good, faster than Storm and needing less deck support, and I would advise against brushing aside the deck.

My list is probably stronger against GAT, Flash and Storm and weaker against Workshop and aggro. It'd be nice to find a middle ground, but unfortunately Slaver is a dying strategy, at least in its current incarnation. I think the problem is really Thirst for Knowledge - it's hard to compete when you pay three mana for your draw engine and your opponents pay zero. I've been thinking of switching to another draw engine like Bazaar. If we want to develop Slaver further I think we should start making Bazaar lists that can still play Force of Will.

As to your questions:
- Chalice at 1 is a huge beating. Actually the Workshop matchup is an ass pain, even with Welders. I'd suggest boarding Ingot Chewers.
- Wasteland is effective but not devastating.
- I could see running Explosives but I'd probably rather cut Echoing Truth instead.
- I'm thinking of cutting Jar because it has some negative synergy with Spheres. It's pretty insane if you play a traditional Slaver list though.

[hitman]

While I realize Drain can be Duressed, it adds to the number of disruption spells they have to fight past after turn two.  In a Gush environment, my two flexible slots are Pyroblast as they're good in blue based matchups and to add storm count for Empty the Warrens.  There's a ratio of mana to business to disruption that I tend to keep to as it makes my deck able to change roles rather quickly.  It's why I don't play Night's Whisper but more threats. 

You're right about me disregarding Flash.  I haven't considered any new iterations.  I can't change my deck to beat every matchup though.  I play in Ohio every month and it's pretty much Workshopville and there's always aggro where I play in Michigan.  Flash isn't played much so I agree that I haven't given it much thought lately. 

I'm convinced if Slaver just runs enough threats and tutors to support them, GAT and storm are manageable.  They can't Duress everything.  I don't honestly think I can out-control these Gush decks but realize I need a certain amount of disruption just to cut it with them.  Thirst is a must in Slaver.  If we end up cutting good synergies because they're more mana intensive than the best draw engine at the moment, we'll just be playing muddled Workshop decks that have an improved matchup against the combo-control decks but lose to traditionally good matchups.  I really think Empty the Warrens is the new step in Slaver.  Empty the Warrens can handle GAT, Aggro, Workshop, and Fish if it's played anywhere.  Platinum Angel takes care of everything else.  Engineered Explosives has been essential to many of my wins, also.  I think it's the new utility slot Slaver needs. 

As for Bazaar of Baghdad lists, if you're playing a lot of acceleration like Ancient Tomb and the artifact mana, maybe Deep Analysis would be good.  Thanks again for the comments.  I'll try your list this week.

[hitman]

Has anyone tried Ponder in Slaver?  If we're worried about getting out drawn by cheap or free spells on one side and Sphere effects on the other, why not try a filter spell that acts like Brainstorm and is sometimes better?

[Metman]

To reply to the Magus of the Future question posed.  If the card is drawn in the first two turns it comes down on the third, and obviously it comes down easily late in the game.  First two turns your lay your lands and you drain something if you can, if not you play your plethora of artifacts.  I think many of you have overlooked the amount of acceleration Slaver has in this format compared to the other top decks.  Is there another deck that plays the artifact accelerators that Slaver does?  Workshop decks are the only other that come to mind.  Only do Long decks compete with their rituals.  Granted, decks in this format have cheaper draw engines and hand fixers with Gush and Ponder but that isn't an argument against Magus of the Future coming down within the first few turns of the game. 

The reason I have Crucible and the artifact land in there is not to set up infi locks with Slaver.  In fact I've found that I Tinker and search out Mindslaver less and less due it's activation cost.  It is tougher to get out, activate, and utilize than any other artifacts in the deck.  Crucible and Seat of Synod are in there because they are cheap artifacts, and with the combo and combo-control decks slowing down Crucible serves to ensure that I win the resource war.  It's a land every turn that I don't have to worry about drawing.  They feed Tolarian Academy easier and they will set up some neat tricks with a Goblin Welder.

On another note, I've found over the years of playing Slaver that the deck lives and dies by Tinker.  It's the crutch of the deck, no other deck utilizes the card like Slaver does.  I think that all else in the deck is there to help you survive or to find it. 

I also agree that Slaver needs a twist to it to help compete.  Bazaar has actually been a card that I've considered but never had the guts to try out.  Currently the format is all about disrupting the spells you want to play before you can play them and then some counters just in case the hand hasn't been torn apart enough as it is.  The success of decks right now relies on their ability to dish it out and be able to recover quickly from a well timed Duress/Thoughseize or FoW/Misdirection.  Their isn't much room for "fluff" anymore.  Take a look at the tops lists of any archetype; they are streamlined and consistant.  This is the direction Slaver needs to go to survive. 

[Everrid1234]

One point: What this deck really misses is 1st turn countering. I thin k Duress/Thoughtseize just isn't enough.
Options are:

Mana Leak
Remand
Spell Snare
Pyroblast

What do you think?

[hitman]

I disagree.  What the deck is missing is turn one plays that advance the Slaver gameplan.  Countering spells is good and all but they don't win you the game.  Rather, I've been considering Ponder as it smooths draws and lets you really set up solid turn twos.  Mana Leak is a poor choice without the mana denial of Sundering Titan, Gorilla Shaman and Strip Mine.  Spell Snare is entirely too situational, especially if they Duress turn one and know you have it.  Remand is largely unplayable because it doesn't handle a threat permanently.  There are cute tricks with it to protect your own spells end of turn and whatnot but out of the four you suggested, Pyroblast is strongest.  However, Workshop Aggro is tier one right now and Pyroblast is dead against it.  I think Ponder is the card Slaver should try to incorporate to improve its matchups.  Slaver has a real uphill battle to fight right now, though, and I don't think it's worth playing.  Same with Bomberman.  They're both mana intensive.  With Duress and Thoughtseize on one side and Thorn and Sphere on the other, getting to mana fast enough can be quite difficult.  That's not taking into account countermagic and Wasteland effects.  The way to beat Slaver now is how you beat Gifts last year.  Straight up attack the manabase.  Ponder allows you a viable turn one play that doesn't open you up to Wasteland and can be played through Spheres. 

[captreynolds]

Hitman –

Some Ideas and updates from my play testing.  You may agree or disagree as you wish, but this it what my experiances have been in my meta-game:

I tried running a couple of Ponders at our weekly tournaments, and they seem to be better than a brainstorm in certain instances.  After much play testing I finally found the magic number of Ponders to be 2.  I cut a brainstorm dropping them to 3, and I cut a Thirst for Knowledge dropping them to 2.  I see it when I need a sorcery speed draw, but never at a bad time, and it helps to play through sphere of resistance.

Ponder has been excellent only costing  compared to  for Thirst.  Also it has a built in shuffle effect and works really well with any other draw spells after a ponder (ie: Brainstorm, Ancestral Recall).  The lower cost enables me to win against Stax & MUD builds. Also if I end up facing a Flash deck I can board out the Ponders for Stifles.

My toughest match up seems to be GAT.  Trying to race them for damage, especially with Goyf now showing up in addition to Quirion Dryads it is really tough most decks seem to have dropped Dr. Teeth as well for more control spells.  That calls for heavy creature hate, and control.  Thoughtseize seems to reign supreme there, as well as Duress.

I also have mono-blue control and black disruption to deal with in my meta-game.  I have been mostly successful against those decks, as they are able to overcome, by retaining control of the field.  Using creature hate, and countering the worst spells has been the best plan there.  I have been able to use my disruption spells against mono blue to keep their control spells to a minimum.  This helps avoid counter wars.  Also a great asset in these match-ups particularly mono blue is a Crucible of Worlds Strip Mine lock.

Against most decks I find more and more that I board out the Mindslaver.  I have much better spells in the board to deal with most things.  I also have been playing with more basic lands, because I continually run into wastelands and Magus of the Moon.  I also have seen Back to Basics as well, which really hurts.   

With the wide variety of things I see in my meta-game Control Slaver seems to do well for itself.  Like I said above you have to get a good clock against GAT.  Keeping tempo works well.  If you are having trouble winning, try dropping your large creatures early.  Empty the Warrens is also a big asset.  Even a 1st turn Empty for 6 total goblins puts them on a 4 turn clock.  You can then use your counters to stop bounce and opposing creatures from getting in the way.  Sundering Titan is the big dude you need not Darksteel Colossus.  Titan can be hard cast if need be, and he blows up you opponents lands quite well.  The deck he is least effective against is MUD Stax. 

Ichorid is another hard match-up but by using Pithing Needles and Tormod’s Crypts you can disable them quickly.  You could also board four Leyline of the Void as well.  I may do that to stop GAT from using Tarmogoyf and stop Yawgmoth’s Win.

Super Long is a deck I sad to say have not had the opportunity to play test against.  However based on the cards in Super Long, I feel that a well experienced Slaver player such as you or I should not have a problem with a slow version of Grim Long or Meandeck Gifts.

I will continue my play testing and keep you updated.

--

Captain Reynolds

[Zelow]

hey paul i dont know if this is the one you wanted me to read or not but it seems to be the topic you spoke of i can see what your talking about anyway. I thought gat died? Well i also wanted to say i see the opinions of the other posters aswell you need to remember that this site is for debating which means people will have different opinions and different experiences with the games they play.

[Dante]

Don't necro 9-month old threads, especially when the metagame has gone through a batch of restrictions and unrestrictions.

Dante