black vise

[androstan]

Black vise was unrestricted not too long ago, along with some other stuff that didn't really matter or effect the meta at all.  Sarcasm aside, I haven't heard a lot about trying to abuse it.  Probably on account of it's an artifact and there's already tons of artifact hate.  Also vintage decks are very fast and can get their hand size down pretty quick.    Finally, it doesn't do a lot on its own, immediately, to affect the game state.

These facts notwithstanding, there are many very playable ways to return cards to hand, deny mana, and generally gum things up fairly quickly.  Also, though fast, vintage decks like to keep their hands filled, which can work to the vise's advantage.   Finally trinket mage is a high quality 4-of tutor for the vise while pitching to fow and enabling an artifact toolbox.  With the general theme being bounce, counters, mana denial, and tempo, the deck is firmly blue based, which is often an advantage.  I've had a few ideas but I'd like to present the idea fairly untouched so I can get everyone's "raw" reaction, rather than posting a list that people may either criticize without recommendation or just try to build off directly.  Everyone's ideas and time on this are very much appreciated.  I recognize that this idea doesn't exactly scream "broken" so many would not be inclined to spend much time on it.  However, sometimes more subtle archetypes, interactions, and themes produce something very elegant and unexpected.  I'd really like to see where some intelligent, innovative, and experienced players can take this.

[IndykidVago]

Wow, thats awesome you posted about the Black Vise unrestriction... I've already tested it in both my Vintage U/W Landstill and in my casual Vintage Scepter Chant... what seems to be the problem is that most of powered Vintage seems to run at instant speed anyway so it's not as usefull as it was back in the Necropotence days.

The only thing that seemed to work was post Scepter lock, but even then it's really obvious that I took out  - 2 Decree of Justice, - 1 Tinker & - 1 DCS for the + 4 Black Vise as an alternate win condition. After about 6 games I just got really frustrated and ended up putting my original deck back together and taking the 4 Black Vise out.

Here's the Scepter Chant list I ran it in.

Artifact - 15
R Black Lotus (proxy)
R Mox Emerald
R Mox Jet
R Mox Pearl
R Mox Ruby
R Mox Sapphire
R Sol Ring
4 Isochron Scepter
4 Black Vise

Black - 3
R Imperial Seal (proxy)
R Vampiric Tutor
R Demonic Tutor

Blue  - 19
R Ancestral Recall
R Mystical Tutor
R Time Walk
4 Brainstorm
4 Impulse
4 Mana Drain (2x proxy)
4 Force of Will

White - 6
R Enlightened Tutor
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Disenchant
3 Orim’s Chant

Land - 17
R Library of Alexandria (proxy)
4 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta


Really, I didn't want it in the opening hand because I'd rather try to assemble the Scepter/Chant lock, but dropping that 1st turn is pretty hilarious (and always unexpected). I just feel that Vintage is much too fast for Black Vise.

Of course there will probably be some sort of BrokenVise.dec to pop out over the net directly after this post.

EDIT* Btw, I know that playing Scepter Chant in Vintage is mostly suicide... it is however currently my favorite deck

[hauntedechos]

My initial reaction to this thread was to walk past it.  However, at the last moment, I remember how much I used to love playing with Vices back in my casual Highschool multiplayer days.

So what are our problems?
-format is too fast for the damage to really matter because they will just empty thier hands.
-tonnes of artifact hate running around these days on account of the rise in shop based decks, and or artifacts in general.

Decks like GAT will always want a full grip, but wouldn't let that thing stay in play, if let it resolve at all.  Flash is too fast to care, Ichorid won't have a hand, Fish wouldn't be very happy to see this card hit, dragon will combo out before it matters, shop decks can just use welder tricks or mox monkey the thing. etc etc.

You're going to want to have it very available, but running 4 of them would be garbage.  Seems like Bomberman is the only deck that can really employ this card. Now how do we keep the opponents hand fairly full?  I don't have an answer to that.  However, perhalps it could be a side board card versus control based decks, to punish them for holding a full grip?  So basicly anything running LoA could be targeted by the SB idea here.

I'm not confident that this card will see play, however I would love to see the topic develop, thanks for posting this.

cheers
Mike

[Tiny Tim]

DeezNaughts also runs a Trinket package. Bomberman and DeezNaughts already have a purpose though. Why would I tutor for Vise instead of Lotus/Dreadnought? It would only be useful in a very, very rare situation, and definitely not worth including.

The only place I can really see Black Vise being used is in some sort of Fish with Rule of Law/Arcane Lab. It really is a pretty weak card, as the opposing player will most likely not have much of a hand, and giving him one is an obvious bad strategy.

To sum up, good for Casual, bad for Vintage.

Thanks,
Kevin

[Daeg42]

I know it's a bit off the wall but what about a Forced Fruition based deck? It seems more risky than I would normally care to go as draw 7's can go wrong really quickly.
The big problem is that vise is inherently anti-tempo, giving cards to an opponent is bad giving yourself cards is good. Next big problem the type of deck that likes to give opponents cards is usually a Mill based deck, and while mill is a fine win condition in casual it's been a long time since it showed up in vintage. The deck will undoubtedly go heavy on blue/artifacts and graveyard hate. Also It would bring back a few more old friends I have been missing, Like arcane denial. 

[Troy_Costisick]

Personally, I don't see why Stax doesn't run 4 of these.  W/ Tanglewire and Smokestakes making it hard to cast things, their opponent's hands should always be full.

Peace,

-Troy

[LotusHead]

Personally, I don't see why Stax doesn't run 4 of these.  W/ Tanglewire and Smokestakes making it hard to cast things, their opponent's hands should always be full.

Peace,

-Troy

Well, try taking any Stax list, and replace 4 cards with Black Vice, and then test vs the top decks: Gat, Storm, Fish, etc. You will probably see why Shop players don't auto include 4 Black Vice.

[OfficeShredder]

Rule of Law or the blue version (arcane laboratory I think?) could work at forcing a full hand.  I think the main problem is that if you're keeping your opponent's hand at seven and not losing the game, it's because you're doing something right.  At that point, the black vise is kind of irrelevant