[Deck] UGBw Fish - better than UBw Fish?

[Everrid1234]

Hi, I present here a decklist from another forum.
It is a 4-color fish which has no (artifact) mana denial main (although it plays Daze) but seems to be quite strong in the current meta. Some choices like a main Dimir Cutpurse in combination with more Moxen provide a strong game against controlish decks and slower combo. Goyf is very strong against aggro decks, even better then Grunt.
Trygon Predators seem quite strong, but slower than Kataki, and combine Oath and Stax hate with some potential against aggro-decks in one card.
What is not supportable are a lot of Waste effects because 4 colors are played.

I think compared to the 3c-Fish it has the following advantages/disadvantages:

+stronger against aggro
+stronger against control

-weak mana denial (quite important against shop-decks)
-weaker combo matchup (but Spell Snare could be nice here) ?

What do you think, is this a better way to go than the 3c-Fish?

3   Polluted Delta
3   Tropical Island
1   Island
3   Tundra
4   Underground Sea
4   Flooded Strand
 
Creatures
4   Dark Confidant
3   Tarmogoyf
3   Meddling Mage
3   Dimir Cutpurse
 
Spells
4   Brainstorm
4   Force of Will
1   Demonic Tutor
3   Spell Snare
3   Swords to Plowshares
4   Duress
3   Daze
1   Black Lotus
1   Ancestral Recall
1   Time Walk
1   Mox Pearl
1   Mox Sapphire
1   Mox Jet
1   Mox Emerald
 
Sideboard
1   Tarmogoyf
1   Swords to Plowshares
2   Smother
2   Oxidize
3   Trygon Predator
3   Yixlid Jailer
3   Pithing Needle

What are your opinions? Is it playable?

[Grand Inquisitor]

Instead of comparing to other fish builds (which seem nonexistent in the current meta) why not compare to other viable decks.  For example, Deez Noughts which just T8'd SCG, and makes this look like a bad port.  Deez Noughts' trinket mage package allows quick wins with dreadnought combo, and has metagame answers.  Meddling Mage doesn't seem to offer the same coverage and dimir cutpurse looks like an over-costed blocker in a field full of bigger creatures.  The swords are interesting, but if you're going to bother splashing white, I'd take Aven Mindcensor over either mage or cutpurse; fits the curve better than mage as well.  Spell snare and daze are good tools, but there doesn't seem to be enough focus on controlling any part of the game, and there are too many good decks out there right now to be spread between board, stack and mana denial.  Better than ubw?  Maybe, but I think in general this needs to go back to the drawing board.

[The Duressed]

First of all, I totally disagree about Aven Mindcensor. We've tried it out in the WUB build, and had enough of it. It's too slow, and just not good enough. It doesn't block anything, doesn't have synergy with anything, It doesn't have high enough power to merit playing it over a Serendib Efreet. It also doesn't really have synergy with anything.

On the synergy note: Your deck is significantly lacking. You're starting to get going in the right direction, but your deck just isn't functioning as a unit right now. The only reason you might want to play green is really for Tarmogoyf, and in a build with white in it, Jotun Grunt seems just as good (especially since it takes care of opposing 'Goyfs).

Dimir Cutpurse, if you want to play it against combo, seems like a sideboard card at best, but I just don't like it right now. There are way too many creatures in the meta.

I like where you're headed, though. Your mind's in the right place, I think, but your build is missing that little bit of extra hot sauce that would boost it up to tier one.

I'm working on a build that started with a similar idea ("Tarmogoyf is the best creature in the format, maybe I should run it"), and it hasn't lost a game to GAT. PM me if you want to see my list and talk about it with me.

[Everrid1234]

Hi Inquisitor, i am interested in a comparison to UBw, since it would replace this one.....but you are allowed to compare it to anything 

Hi Duressed,
I think Mindcensor would work better in this build considering the higher amount of moxen. Since there is not one single mana denial card (which is not good imo) Mindcensor could take out some fetchies relatively stable in turn 2. But still Mindcensor is very questionable. I often had the situation that the opponent gets some dual (often not the one he want, yes, but island for a Gush is island)  while Mindcensor was in play. I think if it would say "top3" or "top2" cards it would be much better. Even Merchant Scrolls still get good things....

But the whole deck is not a hate unit like UBw, that's right. Its more like Duress here, Counter there, Creature-drop and hit. I mean: UBw doesn't do SO much more in one single direction, but it hates out mana, Jotun hates Ichorid (which can save game1, but that's more random. game 2 they help a lot not enforcing a lot of mulligans for Leyline) and graves and Goyfs, Kataki helps against Stax, Null Rod/Chalice vs TPS and I think this flexibility makes it better. Most cards are multifunctional and this is the reason why I believe that Goyf maybe doesn't have a place in a Fish deck what focuses on hating out the opponent. It's just aggro and Fish doesn't want to focus on the aggro aspect.
Although the additional Snares could help a lot. But only turn 1. Turn 2 means --> drop something, and at this point Flash could go off (not regarding the Moxen. Maybe its much smoother with moxen, dropping something and SpellSnare the opponent).
The Cutpurses are slow (too slow also imo) and get of course often blocked. Goyfs are nice but i tend to say that Grunts gy-hating effect makes the white one better. The Jailors are of course sub-optimal.

It's just a pasted decklist, to be enhanced by the people here, seeing if adding green could be worth it.

[The Duressed]

I think that one of the benefits of playing Fish is the ability to take shots at your opponent's mana base while keeping yours in-tact. I really think that ignoring this strategy could only hurt your chances, and that's the reason why I haven't attempted a 4-color fish deck in the past.

The 'Noughts deck seems clunky to me. The problem with it is that you're running cards that are literally unplayable without other cards. Dreadnought simply cannot be played without a RESOLVING stifle. There are good reasons to play that deck, too, but I just am not a fan. The good reasons to play it, and the reasons that I think that it won, are the amazing synergies that are built into it, starting with Wasteland + Life from the Loam.

But that's a different topic... I suppose I should focus on the deck to which this thread is dedicated. If you want to make this deck better, I think you should cut the Spell Snares for 2 Thoughtseizes and a creature. I'd also get rid of the Cutpurses.
-3 Spell Snare
-3 Dimir Cutpurse
+1 Tarmogoyf
+2 Thoughtseize
+2 Kataki, War's Wage
+1 Meddling Mage
That's probably what I'd go with, off the top of my head. I'll put more thought into it, and post in this thread again later.

[Everrid1234]

Hi Duressed,

these are my thoughts about DeezNoughts, too. There are maybe too many necessary synergies. For me things like Life from the Loam can be a really nice benefit....but if a deck's strategy isn't focused on something like landdestruction, Bazaars or Kudzus, it's imo wasted space because it doesn't help to focus on the strategy. Stifling and Loaming for Wasteland is something DeezNoughts didnt plan.

Fish: Manabase-disruption is a central issue Fish definitely has to cover. Regarding this, the 4c Fish is maybe even more a metagame deck then the UBw variants.

It's funny that your changes tend to transform the deck into something what is called UBw Fish  
I think UBw is still the best variant.

[The Duressed]

It's funny that your changes tend to transform the deck into something what is called UBw Fish  

Well, I think that some of the changes you suggested might also be possible suggestions for WUB.. No matter what you do, this deck is probably going to stay WUB + 'Goyf and a couple reasonable sideboard options. You're probably better off with WUB just because you can have a more stable mana base, wastelands, and still have a crazy beatstick for 2 mana (Jotun Grunt).

Stifling and Loaming for Wasteland is something DeezNoughts didnt plan.

What do you think they planned for the Stifles and Life, then?

[Everrid1234]

I think DeezNoughts wants to bring in a Dreadnought and doesn't want to stifle "unimportant" fetchies/wastes and so waste a part of the winning combo.

[Duncan]

I think DeezNoughts wants to bring in a Dreadnought and doesn't want to stifle "unimportant" fetchies/wastes and so waste a part of the winning combo.

One of the strengths of DeezNoughts over Masknought is that is doesnt need to win with dreadnought. You can kill the opponent just as easy with Goyfs. Therefore you can use stifles to attack their manabase.

I dont know where you get the idea that a deck running:
3 waste
1 strip
4 stifle
1 loam
didnt plan to attack the opponents manabase.

Next to that, destroying a manabase can be a 'winning combo' by itself. Finishing after that is just a matter of time.

Back to the deck: I think that fish mana-denial plan is what makes the deck strong. Keeping the opponent from playing spells is a lot easier than to deal with them via counters and such. Since it is so hard to combine a 4cc manabase with wastes, the 4th color (either white or green) doesn't add all that much that you can't find in the other three and the fact that your manabase is now even weaker vs. Workshop decks I do not see the benefit of playing 4cc Fish (yet).

[GUnit]

I think DeezNoughts wants to bring in a Dreadnought and doesn't want to stifle "unimportant" fetchies/wastes and so waste a part of the winning combo.

Unless I'm mistaken, the dreadnought isn't the primary win condition of that deck; it's simply there to steamroll aggro, kick it into high gear when you have no other choice, or lock up a game that you're already winning. I'd guess that opening hand stifles are typically aimed at fetchlands in practice. That's how it's been playing out for me when I've tested the deck, anyway.

[zimmerbloke]

Considering the original decklist, where is Lotus Petal?

I've seen Petal in 3c-builds, and it seems like the color fixing is even more welcome here, while the acceleration is just as relevant.  What was your logic for leaving it out?

[Everrid1234]

If I was the Deez player i would definitely hesitate to use stifles for fetchies. I mean, if Stiflenought is just a win-more option like you pretend you could just take it out of the deck and replace it with something important. But since Goyf-beating is not enough for Deez to win (because each RG Beatz could also do this), Dreadnought-stifeling is a very central plan for Deez imo. Don't be too optimistic, a dead card on the hand (Nought without Stifle) is a dead card on the hand and who says you are already winning just because you stifled a fetchie?

[The Duressed]

I'll do some testing with Noughts against GAT tonight and tell you what I come up with. (I'll post my results on the 'Noughts forum, so look for them there by tomorrow afternoon)

[Duncan]

If I was the Deez player i would definitely hesitate to use stifles for fetchies. I mean, if Stiflenought is just a win-more option like you pretend you could just take it out of the deck and replace it with something important. But since Goyf-beating is not enough for Deez to win (because each RG Beatz could also do this), Dreadnought-stifeling is a very central plan for Deez imo. Don't be too optimistic, a dead card on the hand (Nought without Stifle) is a dead card on the hand and who says you are already winning just because you stifled a fetchie?

The major difference is that deeznought backs up the goyf with duress, fow, seize and mana denial.

And yes, in certain matchups the nought isnt necessary. If you've read my report in the tournament section you can see that i boarded him out quite some matches. But vs. Things like aggro it's just too much of a clock for them most of the time. Versatility and knowing what role to play in a match is key.

What you said about nought being a dead card: this is why the deck runs 3 trinket mages over nought 2-4. Of course you think twice before you stifle a fetch when you've got nought (or trinket) in hand. But you should be able to determine what is the better play at that given moment.

From what i hear you say i get the strong impression you havent played DeezNoughts at all. Please do so before throwing comments about the deck being a clunky pile or debating its playstyle based on nothing.

I'll do some testing with Noughts against GAT tonight and tell you what I come up with. (I'll post my results on the 'Noughts forum, so look for them there by tomorrow afternoon)

I've played some matches vs. GAT (not enough to give significant results). I think that the match is about even or slightly favorable for the Noughts player. Attacking GAT's fetches/duals and duress the hell out of them proved to be quite powerfull. I'm looking forward to your results.

[The Duressed]

I honestly only wanted to test 'Noughts to see how Stifles worked out, and how important the mana denial aspect of it was to the 'Noughts gameplan. My "results" can be found on the 'Noughts forum, and are very much open for discussion.