[Deck] The Tropical Storm (TTS)

[GUnit]

In a format full of welders, stingscourgers and merchant scrolls I don't think DSC is that great, especially in a deck with no misdirections. He seems counter to the whole idea of this deck, which is essentially to set up a good hand and set up a win with at least near perfect information due to duress effects that same turn. In my opinion timetwister is also an awkward fit for the same reason- I want to minimize the influence of luck on my deck's performance. With fewer artifact sources opening hands that give you a ridiculous head start on mana development followed by a turn 1 twister are much less likely in this deck. I think tinker/jar should still remain because jar doesn't introduce the risk of passing the turn to your opponent with a saucy new grip of 7. Also it allows you to wait a turn to untap if necessary, it's easy to cast and the tinker can be used to fish out a lotus prior to a will.

I'm not comfortable with using a solo win condition, so in place of DSC I would either maindeck the second tendrils or the platinum angel, which is a strong game 1 answer to ichorid, from the SB. This would free up space for the fourth bob or something. SB space is at a premium with 2 basics chewing up slots.

In place of the removed twister I would opt to reintroduce the second thoughtseize, as I occasionally have trouble finding a duress effect to protect my win.


Overall, this deck is much more appealing to me than the super long style list. The introduction of gush sans merchant scroll is brilliant, and running fastbond is like having two copies of yawgmoth's will in your deck. Fastbond is also an excellent decoy prior to a will or necropotence. I didn't experience the mana shortness that I had while testing the superlong list, despite the lack of cabal ritual in TTS and I found myself much less reliant on will. In fact, a surprising amount of my lethal goldfish turns included top deck tutoring a will as a contingency plan for the following turn and then killing with lethal storm without it.

[ErkBek]

In a format full of welders, stingscourgers and merchant scrolls I don't think DSC is that great, especially in a deck with no misdirections.

I'm not comfortable with using a solo win condition, so in place of DSC I would either maindeck the second tendrils or the platinum angel, which is a strong game 1 answer to ichorid, from the SB.

Platinum Angel is worse than DSC in said metagame. What makes you uncomfortable about the solo win condition? In my opinion the only thing to worry about is Duress under a Necropotence. With FoW's though the likelihood of this costing you a game is really low game 1.

In place of the removed twister I would opt to reintroduce the second thoughtseize, as I occasionally have trouble finding a duress effect to protect my win.

I like still like twister even without the off color moxen. I wouldn't cut it just yet.

[GUnit]

I think I'm just being superstitious. I'll leave the twister for now and try -1 DSC +1 thoughtseize.

I hardcast DSC once in testing. 

[hauntedechos]

It's great to see some talk comming Tropical Storm's way.  There has been decent discussion with Super Long, and I think it's time that Tropical had it's share as well.

First off, congrats on the placings of tropical Pilots!!  no doubt you've fueled this thread for a while. 

After that I wanted to see how the community felt about Fitting Gifts in.  Gifts has proven it's power in pre restriction, and even now there are decks that seek to abuse the card as a singleton.  Super Long loves the card and I could see it finding it's way into Tropical as well, especially given the increase in draw and Fastbonds acceleration.  It further adds to the bomb count as it ends games the majority of the time.  As I don't own a Twister myself, Gifts occupies this slot and it's always gold for me.  I'm certainly not suggesting the replacement of Twister (although I do feel that this deck really does NOT want to put cards into your opponents hands, especially if you are playing the mirror or a Control heavy meta potentialyl putting counters into thier hands), but mearly suggesting it as a solid card to really fill out this build.

Another option I wanted to talk about was in concerns with SB material.  I am currently running a Volc. Island with ETW in my SB and DSC w/Timewalk as well.  The idea for me was, if we can run a tropical for a Single G card, that greatly improves the draw and acceleration of the deck, then would not a single Volc. Island and ETW in the board be a good choice against StaXX and spehere decks?  as well as a beating on Fish to go with the Massacre for u/w/x versions?

I really hope this thread keeps going strong.  The early test results in tourny play suggest it must be at the very least a decent deck.

[Webster]

After that I wanted to see how the community felt about Fitting Gifts in.  Gifts has proven it's power in pre restriction, and even now there are decks that seek to abuse the card as a singleton.  Super Long loves the card and I could see it finding it's way into Tropical as well, especially given the increase in draw and Fastbonds acceleration.  It further adds to the bomb count as it ends games the majority of the time.  As I don't own a Twister myself, Gifts occupies this slot and it's always gold for me.  I'm certainly not suggesting the replacement of Twister (although I do feel that this deck really does NOT want to put cards into your opponents hands, especially if you are playing the mirror or a Control heavy meta potentialyl putting counters into thier hands), but mearly suggesting it as a solid card to really fill out this build.

There are a few points that I wanted to address concerning this:

1. As far as the effectiveness of gifts in SuperLong, I can say this: I was never satisfied with how it played out, but at the same time I was never disappointed. What that means is that is was very situational for me. A lot of the times I would just brainstorm it away because it was too much mana or I didn't have access to yawgmoth's will already.

2. TheTropicalStorm (hereafter refered to as TTS) plays out much more like SX than MeanDeckGifts in that it's playing off the top of the deck rather than relying on a tutor chain to execute a lethal tendrils. There are much more cards in the deck that say "draw" than "search" when compared to other combo decks. Gifts would be out of place in TTS.

3. Even considering the acceleration that fastbond provides, gifts simply takes up too much mana to put you significantly ahead of where you were before casting gifts in the first place. Imperial seal, mystical tutor, and vampiric tutor are almost always better. I wouldn't want to run gifts unless I had full artifact acceleration which simply takes up too many slots to dedicate to one gifts.

Another option I wanted to talk about was in concerns with SB material.  I am currently running a Volc. Island with ETW in my SB and DSC w/Timewalk as well.  The idea for me was, if we can run a tropical for a Single G card, that greatly improves the draw and acceleration of the deck, then would not a single Volc. Island and ETW in the board be a good choice against StaXX and spehere decks?  as well as a beating on Fish to go with the Massacre for u/w/x versions?

About sideboarding with TTS against stax, there are a few routes that you can go:

1. The red package. This can include:
     2 volc between maindeck and sideboard.
     2-3 ETW between maindeck and sideboard.
     1-2 additional bounce spells sideboard.

The idea here being to play empty the warrens for at least 6 goblins which should usually be enough against stax decks. Having red allows you to play REB and pyroclasm depending on the local metagame.

2. The dark confidant package. This can unclude:
     4 dark confidant sideboard.
     2 additional bounce spells sideboard.
     1-2 additional tendrils sideboard.
     1 basic swamp.

The idea here being to rely on an early confidant to get in there for some damage and help find redundant bounce spells for mini-tendrils to finish them off.

3. The green package. This can include:
     3-4 tarmogoyfs sideboard.
     2-3 trygon predators sideboard
     1-2 additional bounce spells sideboard.
     3 tropical islands between maindeck and sideboard.

The idea here being to play an aggro control game using your green men to weaken their board to where you can resolve a hurkyl's recall and finish them off with a tendrils. Going the green route also gives you access to xantid swarm for control decks where swarm would be better than thoughtseize because of misdirection and other redundant counterspells.


As far as which sideboard plan that I've outlined is the "best", it really depends on what your metagame looks like. I haven't tried to green route to see if it actually works. It could just be really terrible so testing it for yourself is required. Another consideration about what sideboard plan you end up using should be looking at exactly how many slots you have to dedicate to the stax matchup alone. Some of the cards are only good against workshops which may not be practical for what will be at the next tournament that you go to.

I don't really see the point of having time walk in the sideboard. It serves no purpose there and would be better in the maindeck due to its ability to facilitate game ending plays involving necropotence, the topdeck tutors, and other plays involving duress against counters.

I haven't seen  or  / fish in my meta for some time due to GAT so I'm at a bit of a loss as to why I (or anyone else in a similar metagame) should include cards like massacre in the sideboard.

[hauntedechos]

I've included massacre in my Sb as there is a level 2 judge that ALWAYS plays u/w/x Fish and has a personell that usually run the same lists.  it's a local thing I guess (keep in mind I'm in a Canadian Meta here)

The SB volcanic/ETW is a general meta call vs. sphere/staxx decks, which also opens up the addition of a lone REB.  After reading this, I see that the REB slot(s) could be Xantids verus U control.

Timewalk is a package deal with either ETW or DSC joining it.  I see your point in that timewalk is most benificial with DSC and not so much with ETW.  I think there is a good argument that timewalk is not needed and is better served as a valuable slot versus other meta considerations.  I think my idea was that if you need Volc / ETW side it and if you think a fast Tinker/ DSC w/ timewalk is best versus your match, side that in instead.  Generally I was thinking of maximum outs to choose from, and can now understand that more in depth meta evaluation could come up with a better call for card choices.

After all is said, does the 2 slots of 1Volc and 1 ETW seem a solid choice in a global sence?  I've played against Globlin decks running Spheres and seen that a Quick Tinker/DSC sealed the deal before Thorns were online.  On the other hand I've played Staxx where a ETW has kept TangleWire off my ass long enough to combo out.  In the mirror, I've found Extirpate to be much more valuable  than Xantids.

I think I'm looking for players exp. to give me a sence of concensus on some matters here.

[LSV]

Time Walk is awesome. It makes both Necro and all the topdeck tutors better, as well as working with Gush. If you don't have fastbond, just being able to play another land is pretty critical. I can't fathom any reason to think about cutting it or siding it.

[XxtSundaybxX]

so has anyone been testing this deck lately? I have a tourney this weekend and i was going to play this deck but i havent really tested it much...is it believed to be better against the general meta than superlong? i like the explosiveness of this deck better than superlong but i want to play my best option

[hauntedechos]

@ Sunday:  I was initially very excited about the deck.  I've found that the 4Gush w/o makes the deck kinda ridgid in terms of how many open slots there are to play around with.  I like Fastbond as a stand alone, however I rarely draw it and rarely need it's acceleration effect given that this is a Ritual based deck.  The situation where I have 2 gush in hand (which is the only time I see it worth tutoring for Fastbond) are rare w/o scrolls.  I've found that a quick Will kill happens much more often and reliably than having the gush/fastbond draw to chain spells enough to tendrils w/o Will.

i'm sure I could be playing this deck entirely wrong as I'm not a world class Storm player.  The deck has shown a decent early showing tournement wise.  I just found that playing Super Long with the tropical Island slot given to volcanic island, and mox ruby and 1 ETW has been much better for me.  DSC, Tendrils and  Warrens seems like a nice threat density to me.

Anyways that's just my 2cents.

[Bongo]

What sideboards are people running?

I tested the Confidant package, but it was too painful with 4 Force and 4 Gush. The damage taken often made Fastbond/Gush or Necro impossible.
I also toyed with a transformational sideboard into GAT, but rarely saw the need to use it.

My current board is:

4 Leyline of the Void
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Rushing River
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Platinum Angel
2 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Island
1 Misdirection
3 Disrupt

[cane]

I played this deck past weekend (with some minor tweaks).
Came in 10th of 33 contestants.  (4-0-2)

As far as sideboard goes, I ran this:

4 leyline of the void
2 rebuild
1 hydroblast
1 hurkyll's recall
3 engineered plague
3 dark confidant
1 tendrills of agony

I haven't died once cuz of bob, although he made me sweat at points
but I'm actually not really 100% satisfied with this setup

I also didn't run a massacre since i thought u/w fish was extinct.  Needless to say, I ran into the matchup.
And only won because he made a critical mistake.
So I'm in favor of keeping one massacre in the board.

Has anyone tested the green sb plan?
It looks nice on paper but i didn't  have time to test it myself so far.

[Bongo]

I tried the green plan a few times, but wasn't overly impressed. However, I only did a few games, so more testing is definitely needed before making a verdict.
I'm quite happy with my current board:

4 Leyline of the Void

1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Rebuild
1 Rushing River
1 Island

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Platinum Angel

2 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Misdirection
1 Extirpate
1 Massacre

[cane]

That board pretty much looks a lot like what I would be playing if i had a tourney tomorow.

However, I'm still scared of goblins,
earwig is a very fast jester's cap, wich in all honesty hurts this deck.

The green plan gives you additional outs in theory, but i dont' think they'll be too scared of the goyfs.
That's why the red plan is looking more and more appealing to me, however, with 1 volcanic main, I feel we should make room for a ruby.
This would also offer us a wheel of fortune main, wich could be a very nice addition.
(what to cut what to cut, the list is pretty thight)

Another change I'm really contemplating about is -1 duress + 1 thoughtseize, so you get a 3/3 configuration,
however should we insert the wheel, it would probably be a 3/2 (in favor of duress).

Any thoughts on this?

[PeAcH]

I'm currently playing LSV old decklist:

4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 Gush

4 duress
1 thought seize
4 FOW

1 ancestral
1 Vampiric
1 imperial
1 mystical
1 Demonic
1 time walk

1 hurkyl´s
1 Echoing truth

1 fastbond
1 yagmoth´s
1 Twister
1 tinker
1 necro
1 Jar

1 tendrils
1 Colossus

4 ritual
1 manacrypt
1 lotus petal
1 mox jet
1 mox emerald
1 mox saphire
1 black lotus
3 underground
1 tropical
2 island
3 flooded
4 polluted

Sideboard:
1 island
1 swamp
1 thoughtseize
4 confidant
2 hurkyl´s
1 tendrils
4 leyline of the void
1 platinum angel

But haven't switched the maindeck yet to:

-1 Darksteel Colossus
+1 Thoughtseize

as he commented on his report.

I still prefer to have 2 victory conditions. I know Darksteel Colossus is difficult to protect with 5 duress effects + 4 Fows, but tinker is a really nice topdeck midgame as well as a broken start giving a 2 turn clock. This late strategy allows to build the hand while your opponent is trying to get rid of DSC and can open a clear window on turn 3 when he tries to bounce it back to your hand.

The deck is really performing well in my meta, although I think the sideboard could be changed a little bit.

There have been some appearances of the deck in some top8s in Spain lately:

Barcelona http://team-pataners.blogspot.com/2008/02/decks-del-top8-del-2-torneo-de-la-lcv4.html (1 top8 slot, me) on 23/Feb - 94 players
Bilbao http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=763 (2 top 8 slots) on 16/Feb - unknown number of players
Madrid http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=747 (1 top 8 slot) on 19/Jan - 51 players


The green splash which appeared in Bilbao seems pretty interesting:

+ 2Xandit Swarm
+1 tropical

-1 Thoughtseize
-1 Imperial Seal
-1 Flooded Strand

That could even allow a Tarmogoyf sideboard plan. Do you think it could be viable? What are your thoughts on the green splash?

Also, I'm thinking about +1 Doomsday -1 imperial seal. I have been talking about another TTS player in my meta who has been playing the Doomsday with interesting testing results. The Win now factor is really huge with Doomsday in the deck.

[Nastaboi]

I went undefeated on a small local tourney with a list like above. I had 2 'seizes and no Colossus, a lone Cabal Ritual instead of I. Seal and Extirpate in place of boarded 'seize. The Extirpate didn't really convince me, but the 5th ritual was phenomenal. My board was great, I lost like every game on and won two post board. Confidants really are the way to go.

[PeAcH]

You are right. I think confidants are the best weapon postboard.

I normally side like:


-1 Flooded
-1Tropical island
-1 Fastbond
-1 Imperial Seal
-4 gush
-1 Darksteel Colossus

+1 Swamp
+1 Island
+1 Thoughtseize
+4 Confidants
+1 Tendrils
+1 Platz

My meta is very Red heavy, thus you normally encounter lots of Pyros and Rebs. Also, people tend to board in Extirpate against you, so confidants come in instead of gushbond. Platz is better second game because you can replay it in case of opposite bounce and I prefer to have available for certain matches to buy you time. Also, Duress doesn't hurt you that much if you have Bob on board. The game plan I use is normally going for discard and confidant beats and try to finish with a small or mid-size Tendrils.

What do you normally side out to make room for confidants games 2 and 3?

[ErkBek]

I've been thinking about giving Scroll Rack a try in here. I think this deck could utilize Scroll Rack really well since much of the time when comboing it doesn't use Fastbond, but casts Gush. Scroll Rack is great since it allows you to see at least 2 new cards a turn when in topdeck mode and can hide cards from Duress and become broken with shuffle effects (just like Brainstorm), though it comes at the cost of putting a card on the table that doesn't win you the game now.

I know a lot of people have either cut the Imperial Seal or a Ponder for random cards, I'd say give Scroll Rack a try in place of those. If you do try it, let us know how it works out.

[feyd]

I played a deck with maindeck 4 confidants, 5 rituals (4 dark, 1 cabal) and tinker, memory jar, scroll rack, and no colossus (he was in the side along with platz)  and it worked very well most of the time.  The problem with that set up is exactly as you said: the card does nothing to win you the game now.  It does have one major advantage, though: it gaurantees victory if it resolves and stays active.  I found myself tinkering for a scroll rack once or twice during the tournament.  These times were generally slow games where I wanted more control and lands/stability than explosiveness.  And every single one of these times I had already resolved a confidant.
    I ended up taking the scroll rack out because it made me want to play a more slow and controlling game and I didn't believe it was efficient considering the build I was running (I ran zero mana drains, no misdirection, and no thoughtsieze).  It would deffinitely fit nicely into a more controlling build such as mastrianos drain tendrils list.  I tested it in a build similiar to that and it served me well but it was not always an equal substitute for colossus (I usually only like 1-2 tinker targets). 
    If you are in a position to tinker colossus and protect him scroll rack is a poor substitute.

[Mister Amazing]

Hi all, this is my current, untested list for TTS. I am not sure if I am missing anything key or if this is outdated, nor have any clue how to set up a good sideboard. My meta-game has a lot of shop, with a decent chunk of Gat, and only 1 Ichorid player.

The Tropical Storm

Land 13

1 Trop
3 Underground
2 Island
7 Fetches

Accel 11

1 Jet
1 Emerald
1 Sapphire
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
4 Dark Ritual
1 Fastbond

Control 10

4 FoW
4 Duress
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Echoing Truth

Kill 2

1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Tendrils of Agony

Draw/Fixers 14

1 Necropotence
1 Time Walk
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gush

Bombs/Tutors 10

1 Mistical Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Necropotentence
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Time Twister
1 Tinker
1 Memory Jar
1 Ancestral Recall

Sideboard:

1 Platinum Angel {Alt tinker target, bad idea?}
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Xantid Swarm
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Thoughtseize
3 Undecided slots

I thought about Lotus Petal, T-Seize maindeck, and Regrowth, although I'm no expert on this deck so any help is greatly appreciated, thanks!

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

You really want to main deck petal. Combo is about making things happen when you need it, and petal does that. I'd also think about running hurkyl's recall or chain over ET main they'll hit most of the relevant permanents your need gone as well as being storm enablers.

Platz in sb is definately ok, for t crypts, seems a little extreme. I'd try to fit some artifact bounce/tarmogoyf mix for the shops in your meta.

[Mister Amazing]

You really want to main deck petal. Combo is about making things happen when you need it, and petal does that. I'd also think about running hurkyl's recall or chain over ET main they'll hit most of the relevant permanents your need gone as well as being storm enablers.

Platz in sb is definately ok, for t crypts, seems a little extreme. I'd try to fit some artifact bounce/tarmogoyf mix for the shops in your meta.

Thanks for the help. I do have 1 Hurkyl's Recall maindeck, should I cut ET for another one maindeck? Also, what would I do to make room for the 1 Lotus Petal, cut an Island?

So possible

- 1 ET
- 1 Island
+ 1 Hurk Recall
+ 1 Lotus Petal

SB

- 1 Tormod's Crypt
+ 2 Recall
+ 2 Chain of Vapor

Would that be much better? Thanks again for the help.

[hauntedechos]

In concerns with the Tormods Crypts:  You need leyline of the void or tormods for the Flash/Ichorid match. 1 Ecoing truth and 1 Hurkyls recall is good.  Most of the relevent spells are at 1 and that means chalice of the void can really hurt, thusly you need 2 casting spells that will deal with chalice at one.

Haunted.

[Mister Amazing]

Alright thanks. By the way, I just noticed my list has Necropotentce listed twice (Once in draw, once in bomb/tutors) Should I be running 2 Islands then?

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

In concerns with the Tormods Crypts:  You need leyline of the void or tormods for the Flash/Ichorid match. 1 Ecoing truth and 1 Hurkyls recall is good.  Most of the relevent spells are at 1 and that means chalice of the void can really hurt, thusly you need 2 casting spells that will deal with chalice at one.

Haunted.

I'd really try to not run 2 2cc bounce spells. Especially with the default chalice at 2 these days, I'd really look into running repeal or chain main for game 1 over ET as second bounce, you can always sb it out.

[hauntedechos]

@ Hundred:  In todays metagame I would imagen that the decks that can run chalice will set it at zero and one first.  MUD and  Shop are sufficiently powered to drop it for two, however that cuts them off from thier own resistors.  Assuming they don't already have a couple out (and I would think resistors come before chalice at two in terms of importance), I don't see them jumping to drop it against a deck that they are not yet sure of.

So what other decks even run chalice right now?  Everything is running the Gush/Bond engine GAT, TOG, TSOath, Gush/Tendrils, etc.  That doesn't even touch on the decks that are saturated with two casting cost spells such as Fish, Drain Tendrils, GAT etc.  These decks aren't going to run Chalice, nevermind set it at two.

I agree that having variety in your casting costs is a good thing, I just don't feel that chalice for two is going to drop before chalice for one with the heavy played, Brainstorm/Ponder/Mystical/Vampiric/Imperial/Duress set ups and varients.  If anything consider playing rushing river or something in the three casting cost range.

My last consideration is ETW.  Ok I will give over to the fact that it's not the most heavily played card going, but when someone pulls your card with it, would you rather have a Chain of Vapour or an Echoing Truth to answer?  Haven't we learned our lesson handed down from Andy Probasco when he dropped the card on our heads for a Waterbury win?

To look to the sideboard is to decide to give up a little on game one possibilities imo, and we should always be wary of the fact that we all fall short of our goals.

I'm certainly not of the opinion that I am undoubtedly correct in this matter, I'm simply looking towards a logical evaluation of a match:  Why shut off his bounce first when I can shut off his ability to move forward in the game, then lock him out, while he is in top deck mode?

Haunted.

note:  shutting off bounce is a good thing in a permanent heavy deck, but not when it means shutting off your own most effective threats.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

Probably the the most common opening play I see stax make is mana plus chalice at 0 + resistor. the next chalice rhe deck seem I suppose is Dependant on the bored and meta, in mine things are sitting at 2 pretty hard again, you should definitely run what fits your meta best. Personally, with the amount of 3 and 4 cc spells in shop my opponants seem to never fear shutting off 2cc's, talking to them about it they consider it a small % of there deck.

I think we might be not giving chain enough consideration as a game winner though. Cutting off color moxen myself, I still consider the spell a bomb. Has anyone found cutting off color moxen to be a problem when storming out with  chain?

[ErkBek]

Storming out with artifact mana and bounce just doesn't happen in this deck unless your opponent has taken a considerable amount of damage from their own spells. Usually you only have 1-2 mox/ring/crypt mana in this deck.

Chalice @2 isn't much of a threat, Chalice @1 is though. Thus the 2 bounce spells cost 2 mana. If you wanted to cut echoing truth, Rushing River would probably be the next best option.

[hauntedechos]

I totally agree that one needs to construct thier main and SB to meta conditions.  If your meta houses a large amount of two casting cost spells, then certainly Chalice for two will be seen.  I'm not saying that Chain is better or worse than Echoing Truth, I'm simply saying that Chalice at one is an absolute beating for this deck and it needs two casting cost (or higher if your meta dictates it) bounce to deal with Chalice at one.  Also I'm not commenting on Chain's alternate use as Chalice for one will kill that option as well.

To be honest, the reason I stopped trying to advance with this and Ponder Long, is because Resistors and Chalice at one pretty much destroy them and the current meta is really seeing a lot of both.  Keep in mind that I am in an area where proxy play is allowed, so Shop and Stax decks are played.  I'm not sure what your meta is so, that might illustrate why you are so concerned with Chalice at two.

Haunted.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

I definitely agree, I'm not saying one is better than the other either, just explaining a personal preference and explaining my reasoning. My meta is typically 10-20 proxy, so there is a usually shop, it hasn't been placing to well though, due to oath and goyf. If your meta is similar to mine I'd say long is a contender, with less stax less likely to get to the 2-0 bracket. If your meta has a lot of unchecked 9 sphere I'd definitely  agree with haunted echoes

@ kobefan, yeah I'm definitely thinking that chain bouncing shouldn't work in this deck, but it's been happening a lot for me. A lot of counter war over something, chain a bunch of junk ToA or mox, mox, other artifact source, chain them back play them, rit ToA. I've been thinking my testing numbers have just been an anomaly. I've also been on the fence about tolarian, most people have been telling me to play it if only for the power level. thanks for the reply.

[hauntedechos]

I don't feel too good about Tolarian.  It's power level is a reflection of the number of artifacts being run.  With the moxen being cut and lotus and petal being tossed into the bin, it doesn't leave a lot to make the non-basic (also a huge consideration in Shop land) worth the slot.  Certainly, if it's been working for you, then carry on, I've just never used it.

I do agree that TSOath is pushing Shops back due to thier win conditions (robots).  If this persists, then certainly budget combo like Ponder Long and TTS can make a greater showing, and in fact combo will be the favorite to join the puch against shop.  It really is the resistors that are making cheaper combo virtually unplayable with out an outstanding pilot.

Considering Oath and Goyfs, I suppose I can see why one would drop a chalice at two.

Haunted.