[Deck] The Tropical Storm (TTS)

[XxtSundaybxX]

Ive been testing this deck extensively and the more and more i play it the fast and faster it wins and the more consistant it gets. I tested it against the reflection oath build and i had no problems. This deck is insane! As long as you dont run into shops...

Doomsday has been ridic...its just insane, it wins the game on the spot, no fizzle from a draw 7...you just win...its great

Anyway heres my current list

3x Polluted Delta
3x Flooded Strand
3x Underground Sea
1x Volcanic Island
1x Tropical Island
1x Island
1x Black Lotus
1x Lotus Petal
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Jet
1x Mana Crypt
1x Sol Ring

4x Force of Will
4x Duress
1x Thoughtseize
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Gush
1x Ancestral Recall
4x Dark Ritual
1x Timewalk
1x Timetwister
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Imperial Seal(insane)
1x Yawgmoths Will
1x Fastbond
1x Echoing Truth
1x Hurkyls Recall
1x Tinker
1x Memory Jar
1x Necropotence
1x Doomsday
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Empty the Warrens

A few things:

People have been complaining about rituals clogging up theyre hand and i have always been able to use them for something whether its playing necro or hardcasting jar or doomsday or more obviously rit into Will. And if you have more than 1 you have brainstorm to put it back if need be, i wouldnt cut them for anything.

I orginally played the list without Imp Seal and i dont know how its been ridiculous, turn 1 iseal for fastbond go off next turn 2.

I also cut a land going down to 12 and so far i have not had any issues.

Again doomsday has been a house but just make sure your guaranteed you wont have any problems because a good player will let the doomsday resolve and counter your draw spell and then its gg.

Also, in the beginning i was very skeptical to cut the mox emerald and the mox ruby but after playing without them i dont even notice theyre not there...i really only wanted ruby for empty but if your careful an just fetch out the right lands incase of drawing your empty off a draw 7 your fine.

[XxtSundaybxX]

So it seems no one has anything to say about the deck, however i have been testing/goldfishing and continue to get results

First, as good as doomsday has been i have found that i am always waiting for something, for example im holding the doomsday and the draw spell but no ritual, so i want to use the draw spell to get the ritual. Now i need to find another draw spell, so in the mean time while im saving my draw spell waiting to top deck a tutor or a rit or a second draw spell my opponent is building up either counters or his own win. Its a very good card i just find myself waiting too much.

Second, Im starting to wonder if Hurkyls and Truth are both needed in the maindeck, In other combo lists hurkyls can be used as a combo enabler to ramp storm but seeing as this deck runs 5 artifacts it doesnt serve that purpose, and stax is not the biggest deck right now so i find myself either brainstorming it away or saving it in my hand to pitch to force so that i dont have to pitch my gush or ponder to force. However i would rather have hurkyls maindeck over truth i think. So what situations would you prefer to have truth over hurkyls, empty isnt a big enough threat game 1 i dont think so say that you NEED the ET maindeck, however with Oath now being the number one contender does it need to stay in? Or will it just take up space or be another card to pitch to force?

Third, i added the 13th land back in as every game i was opening with 1 land hands and consistantly missing on my ponders and brainstorms for that 2nd land drop.
I have been doing alot of thinking and wondering what the bonuses are to playing this deck over Gush TPS, going back and fourth, back and fourth. You can open up with you opening grip of 7 and be holding 2 lands and a few drawspells and maybe even a top deck tutor and wonder how you can win in the next 5 turns with this hand, and then cast a ponder and a 2nd land and suddenly you have a lethal combo in your hand just like that, out of nowhere. The deck is SO explosive. After thinking about the differences between TPS and TTS i decided to cut the doomsday and goldfish, still unsure and just after goldfishing 1 game it reminds my of why im playing this deck over Gush TPS. The pure speed and explosivness outweighs any number of merchant scrolls you can fit into the deck.

[hauntedechos]

Well, I would like to see the discussion on this deck continue, so I'll drop a few lines in as well.

I think that having a MD answer to Shop based decks(hurkyls) and Oath(echoing truth) is important.  Of course if your opponent is playing SSS Oath then your echoing truth is not good for too much beyond the Oath itself.  In some situations, bouncing Oath might buy you the time you need to get your act together.  I guess the thought was that echoing truth is mainly for ETW, however I think it's use is much more broad than that.  It's strength is it's versatility against tribal and tokens.  In the end I feel that both are needed, again that is just my two cents.

In thought I am inclined to cut one Gush for one scroll.  I haven't tested it yet, but the function of a single Scroll seems fairly relevant to the deck.  In the first part, it can snag you a Force when you have nothing going for yourself, while holding  card.  In the second, it gets you Mystical Tutor which then nets you Doomsday, Will or even a  tutor.  Although this may seem like a poor reason to include the card, there are times when this play is relevant as well.  In the last part, I have never really liked Gush in a combo deck that isn't trying to set up the full Gush Bond engine., so four of a card I don't really care for is a bit much for me as I don't like to see it in my opening hand.  Late game I want to see one and with the inclusion of Doomsday, I think Gush gains a more viable position providing a Gush pile.

I do not care for Tinker in this deck.  Only having Jar as the real viable target doesn't make me happy.  I know that one can also target Lotus, however at that point you've traded  and lost a Moxen for  .  If there are times when this is an optimal play, I wonder how often it comes up vs. Tinker being a pitch card to Force.  I would like to think that Wheel of fortune, Regrowth, Personal Tutor or Burning Wish might be better cards, heck I think even Cunning Wish is a better use of  .

At one point I played personal tutor in the Imperial Seal slot, as I didn't own the card.

Yawgs
Tinker
Demonic
Tendrils
ETW
Doomsday

It still grabs relevant cards.  How do people feel about putting the card in the deck?  If the newschool Storm combo decks love thier tutors, then adding a  one which grabs game ending cards should be a consideration I would think.  What are other's opinions on this matter.

Haunted.

. 

[cane]

I used the personal tutor in place of the Iseal last tournament,
for the same reasons as you.
And it was rather disapointing.

There wasn't a point where I'd want to pitch it
and it's more marginal use lost me 2 games.

Oc it also won me 2 games, but Iseal would've won those too.

So to sum up, it is a budget consideration wich isn't that bad,
but it simply is going to cost you games.

[XxtSundaybxX]

I disagree with cutting 1 gush for 1 merchant scroll, in fact i think its horrible, if you want to play a merchant scroll cut down to 3 ponder or something gush is just too powerful even without fastbond not to be playing 4.

As for the tinker situation, i actually tinker for lotus frequently as you say when would you wanna trade 2U and an artifact for XXX but when you need the color fixing say for your empty because you couldnt draw that fetchland or even better if your gonna play will you get lotus again and you can replay the mox that you sacced to tinker in the first place.

I dont think that playing a merchant scroll or 2 would necessarily be a bad idea but i cant see cutting anything in the deck for a card that just slows you down. I mean yeah sure you can get a recall or a mystical tutor...but like i said i wouldnt cut a ponder just to be able to scroll for mystical when ponder can dig 4 cards deep, and its been mentioned before that dark ritual and merchant scroll just dont go to well together but as a singleton it probably wouldnt be a problem but if you find a way to fit it in let me know ill test it out as well.

[hauntedechos]

Alright people.  With the start of Shops decline, I've elected to move back into the "new school" Storm Combo, esp. Tropical Storm.  I've elected to give Shop match ups the Ingot Chewer treatment so as to not leave myself open to it's, still significant presence.  I'm going to go ahead and drop my current list for the enjoyment and constructive critique of the list.  Hopefully we may generate more conversation and develop possible unforeseen advancements within the deck.

Win
1 Tendrils

Acceleration
4 moxen ( )
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Rituals

Draw
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gush
1 Ancestral

Tutors
1 Demonic
1 Vampiric
1 Imperial
1 Mystical

Defence
4 Force
4 Duress
1 Thought seize
1 Echoing truth
1 Hurkyl's

Bombs
1 Fast bond
1 Twister
1 Tinker
1 Time walk
1 Yawgs Will
1 Necropotence
1 Doomsday
1 Memory Jar

SB
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Pithing Needle
4 Ingot Chewer
2 Engineered explosives
2 extirpate
1 Jesters Cap


So first thing off, I've cut Empty the warrens.  For one, I feel that at my level of playing Storm Combo, I can only concentrate on one kill card.  On the other hand, it's given me the room for the fifth Duress effect.  In the last consideration, I don't really care to address Tangle wire or the Stax issue with Empty the warrens, this is shown by the inclusion of four Ingot Chewers instead.  After that fact, I realize that Shop matches in general are terrible for me/us.  This is not to say impossible, just not something that I care to focus on, especially with TSOath trying to push Shop decks out currently, let them do the work.

Touching on Oath, I attempt to address this match with a selection of Leyline, extirpate, explosives and Cap.  I did want REB/Pyro for this match up as well as Control focused decks, however I settled on the fifth Duress effect in it's stead.  In short, Pro active vs. Reactive.

Flash is something that I've elected to use Leylines and extirpate for Instant kill and explosives for sliver, however to be completely honest, I plainly don't expect to win the match with a great %. After that fact, I refuse to dilute my Sb anymore to a bastard deck.


So let's move on to the DoomsDay debate that is sure to ensue.  I'm going to quickly justify it in this way:  The card can stand on it's own.  It only requires moderate attention when used, while producing game wins.  Necropotence is given the nod because A) it's fueled by a single Ritual and it's benefits are seen as early as turn one, stand alone.  B) Necropotence has some flexible card draw potential that is maximized by it's pilot to keep the deck leagues ahead of the opposition.  The result of resolution is often game ending, however not because of the card:  In short, Necropotence is a means to an end, or enabler there of.  In the case of Dooms Day A) It is capable of producing a sculpted game win, not through massive card advantage, but card selection and Quality. B) It too requires a skill full pilot, both in setting up the play and it's execution.  Much like Necropotence, Doomsday can backfire in an incompetent players hands (IE draw to five life and fail to sculpt a winning line of play and or include cards that will restrict casting due to life total), albeit with higher % of possibility, given the advanced skill needed to properly assess lines of play.  I feel the last fact is offset by the fact that the card can allow the pilot to select the exact five cards that will end the game in the same turn.  Dooms day further gives justification of Dark Ritual as something more than acceleration for Necropotence and Yawgmoths Will, it gives the deck an additional turn two kill possibility and thusly accelerates the goldfish rate, albeit by a marginal %.  I loved Gifts in this deck even though it was conditional and awkward, because it set up a guaranteed win.  Dooms Day replaces that possibility with a reduced casting cost, while abusing the same accelerations.

I'm going to leave it at that and open up the floor to the rest of the community to discuss and critique.  I would request that only intelligent and backed responses be included as simple statements are a matter of preference, while doing nothing substantial to developing the idea and possibilities with this archetype.

Haunted.

[Will]

Haunted nice list but I personally don't really like Doomsday in the deck.  It is a bit of a win more card that sure can up your storm count and lead to a win but at what cost?  I might be missing something but if you doomsday and were to pass the turn you have no way to win with just the five cards (I am not totally sure but I think this is so).  Of course you will probably not have just doomsday or want to just cast it but if makes you much easier to disrupt because you set up basically 5 topdeck tutors meaning that if your first spell gets countered you sit there and wait until you draw into more gas and then try to salvage a win.  I personally think that the deck needs something like Yawgmoth's Bargain which allows you to take the game one step at a time and creating some oops I win situations which every deck needs with a bomb.  You didn't post your mana base, which I assume is near the standard 6 fetch, 2 island, 3 Underground Sea, 1 Volcanic Island, and 1 Tropical Island.  As far as your sideboard goes Ingot Chewer is interesting to say the least.  In game 3 if you get this far I could see the stax player attacking your single Volcanic Island with wasteland making chewer a little less effective.  I probably look at chewer with a slanted view because I find Rebuild like a fix all for the deck upping your storm count and bouncing all of the spheres if workshop aggro has any.  I will see how I do tomorrow as I play in the Philadelphia area for a Mox Jet!

[the boogie man]

doomsday is not what I'd call a win-more card at all. If you have any draw in your hand, you win that turn if you have any mana open, which is likely, since it eats up a single ritual. gush also makes it much more powerful. You don'y use it as a bunch of tutors, you set up a five card combination that wins the game on the spot.

[XxtSundaybxX]

Haunted:

I'm currently playing a list very similar to yours. However i am testing the deck without tinker/jar for a few reasons. People claim that it is kinda clunky, and well...it is. Also i have found from time to time that im holding tendrils when i play tinker, yes im one of those lucky players who ALWAYS draws theyre tendrils even when i dont want it. Also there are times when i dont have a artifact to tinker away, so i find myself waiting to tinker or it gets pitched to force or i just brainstorm it away. Dont get me wrong tinker/jar has won me many games but im curious to see what else is out there. So im currently testing 2x Merchant Scroll in those 2 slots. Theyre growing on me, at first i didnt care for them because i was missing the bombs but they really help you set up your win and make the deck more consistant. Like i said im still testing it so we will see how it goes. I also have cut Empty the Warrens, However I have upped the tendrils count to 2x. This really helps when you are just playing spells and you just randomly draw into your tendrils at 8 spells. I also cut the echoing truth for Chain of Vapor because well, ETW is a little low on the radar right now and also I would rather just combo out the turn after they drop therye empty. CoV allows you to ramp storm count on average of about 3 spells (CoV, plus on average you will probably have 1-2 artifacts out to bounce back and replay). This helps the deck achieve higher storm counts without relying on Yawgmoths Will as much. I cut Doomsday a while ago for reasons mentioned earlier in the thread and i dont think i plan on going back to playing it because I just wasnt completely satisfied. Let me know what you think.

My Sideboard looks like this:

4x Leyline of the Void
2x Extirpate
2x Engineered Explosives
2x Hurkyls Recall
2x BEB possibly (Magus)
3x Dark Confidant

[hauntedechos]

I had serious thoughts of cutting jar from the list.  I was seeing the use of Tinker as a lotus tutor and I like it for that reason.  it could be cut as long as the draw I find justifies cutting the tinker for lotus play.  I played 3 matches tonight against TSOath and won 2 on the back of Doomsday.  Its a card that demands a set up, however you just know when that play will win you the game and much like any play that you go all in for, you set it up.  I would suggest practising that card and the set up.

I won a game on the back of setting up a counter war over a necro, lost the counter war by choice, then launched into a Doomsday pile for the win.

I too don't care for etw, however I've selected Doomsday as it's replacement focus.  In terms of cov over e.t., I'm not sold.  I do see your point as well as seeing the value in it, however, tokens are an integral point in the meta, whether it's Ichorid tokens, etw tokens, multiples of the same sphere etc, it's just something I've stuck with ever since Brassman won on the back of ETW. I've never been let down, as well as understanding that the Storm deck is fast enough that giving up margins at the cost of losing to silly numbers doesn't work for me.

Haunted.

[XxtSundaybxX]

If doomsday has been working for you thats great, i had some success with it as well, i just got tired of waiting for the right spells in order to play it...i hated holding my gush or my ponder until i drew the rit to cast the doomsday and assuming i had the protection to back it up. Majority of the time i would end up casting the draw spells to dig for the disruption or the rit and then i needed another draw spell. Also I'm sure most people are going to board in leyline which makes doomsday the worst card in your deck. Like i said if its working for you then stick with it these are just the problems i ran into. i'm having some success with merchant scrolls right now. As for ETW, im not sure if echoing truth or chain of vapor is the better card right now, i mean i see your point on the tokens thing and the other thing that i have considered is that like i said above people are going to board in leyline and if they stick 2, chain cant get around that. However at the same time chain acts as a storm enabler to get around using  yawgmoths will. So im still on the fence about that.

[hauntedechos]

It's an important note to make about leyline and doomsday.  When Leyline comes out, you now have to search out your bounce, (regardless of which card you select).  Doomsday is not a card that really goes off any earlier than turn two, at least not without rolling the dice, or having some nutty opening hand.  I agree that it all boils down to how the pilot feels about it.  Given that you have Gush/Fast bond, it makes sense that you would have success with Merchant scrolls. I understand that it can help both with and without Fast Bond in play, however the choice of abusing the engine would be good.  As a utility card, it has it's uses as well.  Whether those uses are optimal or not, would depend on the situation and again be something the pilot needs to feel out for him/herself.  You make a valid point about cov, however I guess I'm just a very defensive player, which isn't always a great thing for Storm Combo.

Haunted.

[XxtSundaybxX]

So i tested strictly against Flash alllll night. I was using the list without tinker/jar and without mana crypt and sol ring but with mox emerald and mox ruby and 2 merchant scroll. At the end of the night it ended in my favor. I mean yeah he got his ridiculously broken turn 1 wins and i got a few myself, but when it comes down to a real game where they have to search for theyre win i can race them and win. Also all games were pre sideboard...My matchup only improves after board, regardless of whether they switch to the sliver kill or not. Im very comfortable with the flash matchup and i think this is a great deck to compete with. However i do feel that flash needs to be banned.

About Doomsday:

I just dont know why you would wanna take time to search for bounce when you could just search for a different win, and win without Will or Doomsday. I'm not saying doomsday should be cut, in fact im going to test it some more and see what happens. Im still unsure about chain of vapor vs echoing truth.  Echoing truth is seeming like the better card because if multiple leylines come out it will get rid of them all. It also good against ichorid, and empty tokens and flash slivers if they board into it.

[hauntedechos]

Don't get me wrong, I don't revolve the deck around Doomsday.  I was continuing on with our conversation about the card and relating it to the leyline situation, in contrasting Echoing Truth to CoV.  I just seem to always have an opening to resolve and win off the card, it's just been amazing to me.  Turn 3 I seem to always have the pieces I need to combo out with Doomsday, and if it's there I go for it, if it's not then I look for other avenues of play.  I can see that the card is certainly NOT for everyone as there have been votes for and against the card.  I just can't see cutting it when there are many situations where it just...wins.  Untill now there were draw 7's that gave you card advantage yes, but also put cards in your opponents hand and these cards did not always put the game away.  It's just a matter of preference I suppose.

Haunted.

[XxtSundaybxX]

I can see Doomsday seeing more play now that flash is dominating. Draw 7's have become terrible with the new instant flash kill, the last thing I wanna do is cast a draw 7 and allow them to win in response to my duress or to my tendrils. As for the rest of the deck I think I'm sticking with 2x tendrils in the main and leaving the empty on the board. I could not be more pleased with the deck at the moment and we will see how it does at SCG VA.

[Zieby]

Hi all,

I was reading this topic and got verry intereested in this list. I reworked and tested the list a little and found that Jar (Draw 7's)was to clunky.
I Replaced Jar + tinker for 2x Scroll. The reasson was also stated by Sunday as you can see below.
Altough he mentioned doomsday in his post in place of draw 7's.

I can see Doomsday seeing more play now that flash is dominating.
Draw 7's have become terrible with the new instant flash kill, the last thing I wanna do is cast a draw 7 and allow them to win in response to my duress or to my tendrils.

Sunday also mentioned that he would want to play 2x Tendrils, i have the feeling that that can be a great advantence but i dont know which card to cut for the extra tendrils.

Here is mi list i hope you guys can give constructed feedback for main and sideboard.
The Metagame I'm in iconsists out of Flash, Oath, Gat, And Ichorid for the Most part.
For the rest it is the ussual decks as TK Deeznaught, bomberman, Drain Tendrils, Empty Gifts, MUC, MBC and Grim Long.
It 's very diverse but hard. Mi goal is to fight the top 4 contenders with mi sideboard.
As you will Notice i removed the Splash for RED. I feel that RED doesn't bring that mutch gain and that it is better to Focus on B and U.

Aantal   Maindeck
3   Polluted Delta
4   Flooded Strand
3   Underground Sea
1   Tropical Island
2   Island
   
1   Black Lotus
4   Dark Ritual
1   Lotus Petal
1   Mana Crypt
1   Mox Emerald
1   Mox Jet
1   Mox Sapphire
   
4   Force of Will
3   Duress
2   Thoughtseize
1   Echoing Truth
1   Hurkyl's Recall
   
4   Brainstorm
4   Gush
4   Ponder
1   Ancestral Recall
   
1   Demonic Tutor
1   Vampiric Tutor
1   Mystical Tutor
1   Impereal Seal
2   Merchant Scroll
   
1   Time Walk
1   Timetwister
1   Yawgmoth's Will
1   Fastbond
1   Doomsday
1   Necropotence
   
1   Tendrils of Agony

Aantal   Sideboard
4   Leyline of the Void
3   Spellsnare
2   Pithing Needle
1   Extirpate
1   Chain of Vapor
1   Hurkyl's Recall
1   Energy Flux
2   Hydroblast

As you can see and already know, the list is verry tide.
That's why i finfd it hard to place a extra Tendrils in the main.
The 2x Merchant Scroll gives the Gush bond Engine a boost and can do al the other known plays, for example fetching Mystical to find tendrils, Will or Doomsday to end the game.

Further more i really, really like Doomsday as a one off in this deck for all the reassons mentioned by you guys allready in this topic.

I Hope i can get some feedback so i can play the deck in mi next tournament in Holland or Belgium (Europe).

Greetz Zieby

[XxtSundaybxX]

Yo Zieby

Your list looks pretty standard, its very similar to mine. There are only a few differences

-1 Mana Crypt
-1 Thoughtseize
-1 Doomsday

+1 Mox Ruby
+1 Misdirection
+1 Tendrils of Agony

My reasoning for Mox Ruby over Mana Crypt is that the biggest concern is the loss of life. Mana Crypt was better when there was more draw 7's in the deck or Jar to help hardcast it. Also I'm playing Dark Confidant in the sideboard and mana crypt and bob dont mix well together.

The Misdirection is situational, sure its nice to steal a recall every now and then but its rare due to it being a singleton, however it helps protect your early bombs so you dont have to duress before you play your bomb.

About Doomsday I'm going to start testing it again to see how i like it again ive had good and bad results with it. Ive listed earlier in the thread why i was having problems with it if your interested.

About fitting the 2x tendrils in the main there are really only 2 slots that you would wanna switch out for the 2nd tendrils. Either cut 1x thoughtseize or 1x merchant scroll. You really only need 1 merchant scroll to find your recall or your mystical tutor. However i would suggest cutting 1x thoughtseize leaving 4 duress effects. If i decide to include Doomsday i would most likely cut the Misdirection.

I am playing 1 volcanic island in the main strictly for reb's and empty out of the sideboard, there are no maindeck red spells.

As far as your sideboard goes it looks pretty solid a few concerns though

1x Energy flux, seems odd as a singleton
and what are the pithing needles for?

Heres my sideboard for your reference:
4x Leyline of the Void
2x Engineered Explosives
3x Dark Confidant
2x Blue elemental blast (magus)
2x Reb (oath,flash)
2x extirpate
The bob's are for the mirror and stax and control matchups

I hope you like the deck, I personally am experiencing amazing results with it

[hauntedechos]

Just as a quick note.  I'm still using the single Tendrils as my lone kill condition.  However the removal of Tinker/Jar has lead to the addition of 1 merchant scroll and 1 Research.  I am JUST starting goldfish testing and will expand from there.  I just thought I would put it out there for the masses to look into.

Cheers
Haunted.

[Stormanimagus]

My reasoning for Mox Ruby over Mana Crypt is that the biggest concern is the loss of life. Mana Crypt was better when there was more draw 7's in the deck or Jar to help hardcast it. Also I'm playing Dark Confidant in the sideboard and mana crypt and bob dont mix well together.

The Misdirection is situational, sure its nice to steal a recall every now and then but its rare due to it being a singleton, however it helps protect your early bombs so you dont have to duress before you play your bomb.

About Doomsday I'm going to start testing it again to see how i like it again ive had good and bad results with it. Ive listed earlier in the thread why i was having problems with it if your interested.

Agreed. I'm not sure what people are thinking in putting 1 D-Day in to a non-d-day centered deck. I mean, passing the turn before you win is just as bad as using Oath to win so you might as well play Oath over this deck entirely unless you plan to win a turn before Oath. I understand that it can be a late-game bomb, but what do the stacks tend to look like? What life will your opponent most likely be at? You'd better be sure you can win because going to 10 or less life with 5 cards in the lib doesn't look so hot when your opponent has built up his hand again. I've always loved D-Day, but I feel the card really works best in a deck centered around it as a sort of unrestricted "Grim Tutor" FTW. I think any list running D-Day would always want to include Street Wraith, for instance as that card really makes the "Win Now" thing more possible. D-Day is also awesome as a deck that can really run Unmask the way Unmask was meant to be run. With easy cards to pitch you should never have a problem using it (extra D-Day, Wraith or Leyline post SB).

I understand that Gush does the same thing, but I don't see how you're going to have CA over your opponent with this deck when you give them 3-4 or more turns before you WIN. That seems like what will happen most of the time with this deck with the amount of disruption/raw power that you run. The strength of the old D-Day decks was in the fact that it could run an awesome set of disruption and still have room in the deck for a consistent turn 2-3 kill.

The problem the deck faces now is one card:

Leyline Of The Void

This makes it pretty much impossible to just win off a D-Day Stack I've found. Thought maybe with some innovation it could be done. I've been running through Research/Development scenarios in my head for a while and haven't come up with one that doesn't rely on Yawg-Will as of yet.

Don't get me wrong guys. I LOOOOVE D-Day and always will. It makes the endgame potentially sooner than an opponent would like, but it is also very fragile. I'll post the D-Day list I've been working from of late to give you guys a reference to how I think it should be built.

Doomsday 2008 Update

Land (14):
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Underground Sea
3 Swamp
1 Island

Artifacts (5):
1 Black Lotus
1 Lion’s Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire

Creatures (4):
4 Street Wraith

Instants (13):
4 Dark Ritual
4 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Research / Development
1 Hurkyl’s Recall

Sorceries (24):
4 Doomsday
4 Unmask
4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
4 Ponder
1 Mind’s Desire
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth’s Will

SB
4 Leyline Of The Void
3 Extirpate
2 Tendrils Of Agony
2 Hurkyl’s Recall
2 Snuff Out
2 Massacre

[PhilipJFry]

Just as a quick note.  I'm still using the single Tendrils as my lone kill condition.  However the removal of Tinker/Jar has lead to the addition of 1 merchant scroll and 1 Research.  I am JUST starting goldfish testing and will expand from there.  I just thought I would put it out there for the masses to look into.

Cheers
Haunted.

Haunted,
Can you expand a little bit on the thought process behind including Research (I am assuming of Research//Development fame)?  Is the research intended to provide some protection in case soemthing vital gets removed from the game?  Are you using it in a Doomsday pile?  Is there some other use I am missing.  It's inclusion intrigues me, and I would love to see some explanation of your thought process.

Peace
PJF

[hauntedechos]

I would whole heartedly refute the idea that D-Day as a singleton, is a suboptimal choice.  We have been developing TTS and Ponder Long for a while now, and the growing understanding of the deck is that it runs few bombs, has issue with card advantage and that draw 7's are really hit or miss.  The idea that D-Day CAN be a stand alone win card is enough to include it over many draw 7's period.  The fact that Leylines stand in our way, is a consideration for games 2-3 and thusly increase from a single bounce card to a couple/few to address this issue.  Flash deals with it and so does Ichorid, thusly I see NO reason why a Storm deck cannot.  Storm decks have always had to be aware of yard hate trying to steal the steam from Yawgs Will, nothing has changed.

A D-Day deck list doesn't help the current discussion, though I certainly appreciate the understanding of D-Day as a deck when learning how to make piles.  I would like to note that creating a D-Day pile that required me to pass the turn, simply would not be an option for me as that is not the function I attempt to extract from the card...not ever.  To be candid, the card does have limitations and restrictions which require tight game play and understanding of your role in the game/match, however it's rewards offset the difficulties, I feel.  Again it's a personal opinion and many have stated that they do not feel comfortable with the card, furthering that they feel better suited to other cards that don't share an intensity level to Doomsday...ok fine.

D-Day piles that win now are built off Ponder, Gush or Brainstorm in hand and access to BBB and U for the most part.  I fail to see how any of that is difficult given the limited use of Dark Ritual in this deck and the fact that all the draw are four of's  on top of jet, sapphire, black lotus, lotus petal, 3 seas, 6+ fetches.  I DO understand that paper is not the same as playing a game out, however, even in my testing against TSOath, the card has single handedly allowed me to be faster and keep pace.  It's increased my threat density and this is important when playing decks that are light on hard counters.

As I said before, it's a matter of personal preference.  I just don't see how a card that CAN WIN NOW, is not an obvious choice to a draw 7 that puts cards in the oppositions hands AND has the serious chance to fizzle anyways/not lead to a winning path.

Haunted.

As a side note:  the initial thought process for me was to use research as a means to recoup removed spells.  Also it is a mechanism to hedge against extirpates main, which I face fairly often.  The use of Research in D-Day piles is something that I intend to look into, but have not yet.  further research into it's use from the actual D-Day deck might provide answers I'm looking for.

[Stormanimagus]

I would whole heartedly refute the idea that D-Day as a singleton, is a suboptimal choice.  We have been developing TTS and Ponder Long for a while now, and the growing understanding of the deck is that it runs few bombs, has issue with card advantage and that draw 7's are really hit or miss.  The idea that D-Day CAN be a stand alone win card is enough to include it over many draw 7's period.  The fact that Leylines stand in our way, is a consideration for games 2-3 and thusly increase from a single bounce card to a couple/few to address this issue.  Flash deals with it and so does Ichorid, thusly I see NO reason why a Storm deck cannot.  Storm decks have always had to be aware of yard hate trying to steal the steam from Yawgs Will, nothing has changed.

A D-Day deck list doesn't help the current discussion, though I certainly appreciate the understanding of D-Day as a deck when learning how to make piles.  I would like to note that creating a D-Day pile that required me to pass the turn, simply would not be an option for me as that is not the function I attempt to extract from the card...not ever.  To be candid, the card does have limitations and restrictions which require tight game play and understanding of your role in the game/match, however it's rewards offset the difficulties, I feel.  Again it's a personal opinion and many have stated that they do not feel comfortable with the card, furthering that they feel better suited to other cards that don't share an intensity level to Doomsday...ok fine.

D-Day piles that win now are built off Ponder, Gush or Brainstorm in hand and access to BBB and U for the most part.  I fail to see how any of that is difficult given the limited use of Dark Ritual in this deck and the fact that all the draw are four of's  on top of jet, sapphire, black lotus, lotus petal, 3 seas, 6+ fetches.  I DO understand that paper is not the same as playing a game out, however, even in my testing against TSOath, the card has single handedly allowed me to be faster and keep pace.  It's increased my threat density and this is important when playing decks that are light on hard counters.

As I said before, it's a matter of personal preference.  I just don't see how a card that CAN WIN NOW, is not an obvious choice to a draw 7 that puts cards in the oppositions hands AND has the serious chance to fizzle anyways/not lead to a winning path.

Haunted.

As a side note:  the initial thought process for me was to use research as a means to recoup removed spells.  Also it is a mechanism to hedge against extirpates main, which I face fairly often.  The use of Research in D-Day piles is something that I intend to look into, but have not yet.  further research into it's use from the actual D-Day deck might provide answers I'm looking for.

All good points Haunted. I do give your opinion a lot of weight and I'll try testing D-Day in the Ponder/Gush versions of long as a 1-2 of.

I should clarify my main issue with D-Day as a 1-2 of in this deck.

If most of the stacks you'd ever JUST win with involve Will in the stack then why not just include 1 MD Grim Tutor or 2 of em? It seems to funcionally accomplish a similar thing when you need to have a higher density of bombs. It doesn't force you to go "ALL IN" and it still seems to accomplish a similar end.

Am I wrong about this? Are there D-Day piles I'm missing that involve Gush/Research or something that can allow you to win sans Will? Is it easier to Win the turn you can D-Day than the turn you cast Grim Tutor? It doesn't seem like it would be, but if you could explain this point, then I'd be more comfortable with D-Day.

And I want you to know that I'm not scared of running D-Day because of the difficulty of creating the right pile. I relish the thought puzzle of trying to win with a 5-card stack. D-Day was the first deck I ever piloted at Waterbury, and I know D-Day stacks pretty much inside and out. That's not the issue here.

I just want to know where D-Day wins where Grim Tutor would not if you are probably gonna have to wait til the later game to consistently cast it if you only run it as a 1-of MD.

1-of = not consistently going to find = probably not going to be playing it on turn 2 very often

Grim Tutor after turn 2 = Win Now as well

That is my dilemma. Discuss!

[hauntedechos]

Certainly adding a Grim Tutor is an option and a damn good one.  The issue for me personally is that I do not own one.  That fact is NOT something to argue in terms of consideration, it's a personal issue.

On to the comparison.  I include one D-Day and would not add more than that as it's function is a tutor able card that wins now.  Grim tutor adds flexability in that you have the option to tutor for any card that the game state demands and in that capacity it's the same as the already seen 4 tutors.  This leads me to think that you might be better off replacing the mystical with Grim.  If that is done, you still make better use for the dark rituals at the cost of a tutor that can pitch to Force, which I don't think is a bad trade off.  Grim allows you to select the card that should aid you in winning now, thus being another enabler.  The difference in my mind is that D-Day, while also an enabler, is a much more powerfull enabler.  When D-Day resolves and counters are in hand, or a lead of Duress into, or during d-day comboing are present, then the result is a win.  Anyway you slice it, counters or Duress effects are required to ensure that you don't get screwed.  I further think that once again this is another example of personal preference.  The Idea that I was running with is that D-Day is a stand alone win now card, once resolved.  Grim is another tutor that can enable the same plays made by Demonic and Vampiric and since we all ready have four tutors, I question the value of adding another one.  I'm certainly NOT saying it's right or wrong, it's a matter of playstyle and what you get out of each card.

My question to you is, for the sake of greater understanding and luminosity, what cards and game states is grim tutor as a singleton winning games for you versus what you see D-Day winning?  Perhalps it would all come down to percentages, flexability and playstyles in the end.  I for one would like to know what I should be including.

As a last thought, if Grim tutor is a serious contender for you and others, wouldn't you be better off playing Grim Long then?  I don't have an answer to that and feel that it's something that should be developed and thought about when considering a deck choice.

Haunted.

[ErkBek]

So why are people cutting Tinker/Jar? I've followed the thread, but this move makes no sense to me. Cutting Tinker/Jar does the following: (1) Makes the deck less explosive. (2) Makes the deck more Will and Fastbond dependent. Also, adding another Tendrils when you've cut the draw 7 that gives it problems doesn't make much sense either.

I think if you start cutting draw7's, Rituals get worse. You then drop to 2 or 3 and then Necro and Doomsday have to go. Before you know it, you're going to be playing Gush TPS which is strictly worse than Tryant Oath. (if anyone needs me to explain just ask, I will when I've got more time)

Another problem with cutting Tinker is you lose Mana Crypt. That card is amazing
Research seems like a terrible idea to me. It doesn't enable any new Doomsday kills and it doesn't do....anything really. If you want Extract protection run a DSC, Titan, ETW, or another Tendrils. Extirpate on Tendrils shouldn't happen ever unless it was Duressed then Extirpated. That's a once in a lifetime thing. Drawing Tendrils and having it suck happens once a tournament, at least!

Agreed. I'm not sure what people are thinking in putting 1 D-Day in to a non-d-day centered deck. I mean, passing the turn before you win is just as bad as using Oath to win so you might as well play Oath over this deck entirely unless you plan to win a turn before Oath.

Thanks but no thanks for the random Dday list. I think it's better we stay on topic than me tear it apart.

Dday isn't used in here to cast and pass the turn with. 80% of the time you play Dday you're planning to win that turn. Twister, bounce spells, and opponents losing life to their own spells are the only times you'd have a Dday kill that works when passing turns.

From my list, I'd decided to add Chain over Echoing Truth and punt the shop matchup a little more. Chain is awesome in storm and enables some Dday stacks when you've got a mox or 2 in play.

[hauntedechos]

Hey Eric:  I've found that by going the Jar route, there are times when I've had nothing of consequence after drawing seven and given my opponent counters in the events that I've actually had a shot at winning now.  I certainly value your understanding of the deck, as well as having good success with Tinker/Jar and a D-Day main, I just wanted to look into the idea that research might provide additional avenues for the deck.  I will continue testing, as well as taking your knowledge in reference.  I am curious however, as to your findings of a lone D-Day in the list.

My thoughts on including Merchant Scrolls over Tinker/Jar were similar, in that you gain protection tutors and an increase to the GT realm of decks.  I don't have any values which tell me whether this is a good or bad idea.  I've just been underwhelmed with Tinker/Jar, hoping that there are better options out there.


Haunted.

as an edit:  I found a line of play that involves leyline in play:

Cast Gush with Leyline in play (nothing else needed)
Lotus (for UUU)
Ancestral
Lotus Petal (for G)
Brainstorm
Research -> Lotus, Petal, Tendrils

It's a start from a certain point of view.  Narrow?  possibly, but since we are trying to further reduce the dependence on Yawgs, then this is a supporting fact.

[XxtSundaybxX]

Becker:

The thing about tinker+jar is that yes its less explosive but its more consistant without it, you dont draw your jar when you dont want it, and dont have to worry about having tinker and no artifact. I know you personally dislike merchant scroll but it smoothes the deck out and also with the huge increase in flash draw 7's are bad right now...the last think i wanna do is crack my jar and allow my opponent to win becuse i just gave him/her 7 new cards to win with. And yes we lost mana crypt but ive included mox emerald and mox ruby which take the place of crypt. I also have cut the echoing truth for chain of vapor for the very same reason you did to rely less on will and increase storm wihtout will. However if i keep it that way i will be boarding echoing truth to deal with leyline game 2. About adding the second tendrils it allows you to just randomly draw it off a digging spell when your going off. I personally love the second tendrils...and if i only get to 8 storm then i scroll for msytical and win next turn via the second tendrils. Even with the exclusion of tinker +jar and the inclusion of 2x merhcant scroll the deck still goldfishes just as fast its very consistant turn 3 kills and a decent amount of turn 2 kills.


The thing about D-Day is that you dont pass the turn, you WIN on the turn you cast it. And if you dont have the draw spell (ponder,brainstorm,gush) then you dont cast it on that turn. There are auto win piles that have already been discussed earlier in the thread such as:

If you have Gush you get:
lotus
recall
rit
Will
tendrils

If you have Ponder you need U floating after ponder:
recall
lotus
rit
will
tendrils

The good thing about all these piles is theyre auto 10 spell count because you have the rit, plus the doomsday plus all the spells after doomsday resolves.

I disagree with the argument about Doomsday i think its a very sold bomb in the deck, as long as your smart about how you play it...you need to make sure your opponent doesnt have a counter or a brainfreeze or anything silly like that. If your opponent has leyline out then you either shift game plans and win via another bomb or you just scroll up your bounce if your not under any pressure.

The problem with Grim Tutor is...its no more of  a win now card that a draw 7 is because it takes up 1BB in a deck that only runs 4 rituals, and most times its dead until you wanna tutor for your lotus or your will..and if you gonna do that why not just tutor for both with doomsday? Now if you were playing cabal rituals as well as dark rituals then yes i could see grim tutor being a replacement. But like haunted said then you would be better off playing long, and trust me if long was competitive in this meta i would be playing it.

Research and development is interesting...its in the dday decklists but i never really considered it in here, you already have the green, and if your playing a volc you also have the red. Let us know how it works out haunted.

[Stormanimagus]

as an edit:  I found a line of play that involves leyline in play:

Cast Gush with Leyline in play (nothing else needed)
Lotus (for UUU)
Ancestral
Lotus Petal (for G)
Brainstorm
Research -> Lotus, Petal, Tendrils

It's a start from a certain point of view.  Narrow?  possibly, but since we are trying to further reduce the dependence on Yawgs, then this is a supporting fact.

Oh I don't think that's Narrow at all. *applauds*. Thank you. that is a very clever way of using the Leyline's RFG ability against it. That gives me more faith that D-Day could be good in your deck and I'd be interested to know if running 2 might not be a good idea (especially if you are gonna keep research).

I whole-heartedly agree that draw 7's aren't great right now and the only reason I'd even run Timetwister is that it is never a dead draw and/or it is pitchable to FoW. Flash WILL be played a lot until they decide to restrict Merchant Scroll (which they should). It's too consistent and deadly fast NOT to be played.

Now on to the D-Day deck thing. I PROMISE I'll post this in the D-Day thread as well later, but I'd really like to know why many of you think a dedicated D-Day list COULDN'T work. Especially now that we know that there are ways to play around Leyline it might be an interesting idea for a comeback deck. the fact that it can run 12 MD discard spells and not really suffer from that too much seems like a real strong point to me.

Any ANY ANY list of Long or Gush-Tendrils or Ponder-Long or any other long list you can dream up will not be able to find room for 12 proactive disruption spells and many of them only find room for 8. D-Day does it with ease and doesn't really have to cut any important MD elements because my version doesn't NEED Gush in order to win. I suppose the fact that my list can't make room for the 7-9 slots required to include the Gush-Bond Engine (4 Gush, 1 Fastbond and 2-4 Scroll) is a weakness, but look at the strenghs? The ability to potentially go turn 1:

Duress/Thoughtseize
Unmask pitching Wraith or random extra D-Day

Turn 2:
Ritual ->D-Day and win.

That seems like it could be strong. I dunno. I'll certainly have to test a bit before I just up and say D-Day.dec could be good again, but it looks promising when you have a non-Will dependent option if the game goes to the mid game.

To sum up:

@Haunted. I like the 1-2 D-Day

@Community. D-Day.dec? Yay or Nay?

[XxtSundaybxX]

I'm not trying to be a jerk but this isnt the DDAY thread and myself as well as others would like to keep this thread on the topic the TTS. Im not saying that DDAY.dec couldnt work all im saying is you should just be discussing it in the thread designated for DDAY.  As for TTS yes i think there is a place for a singleton doomsday in the deck, however without research and development.

[kalisia]

Concerning Grim Tutor vs D-Day, I think Grim Tutor is just 10 times more powerful in this deck. The opponant always can let you resolve your D-Day, and then counter the right threat, and you lose with your 5 cards on the library. Grim tutor is so safer! Grim gets countered? No problem, you will play other bombs. Moreover, note that BBB is far difficult to play than 1BB. Now, with the great amount of fetches played maindeck, it is easy to find 2 Underground Seas on the beginning of a game. BBB almost always requires a Dark Ritual or Lotus. Grim Tutor is very flexible, and it finds Will, not D-Day. Demonic Tutor is a key card of the deck and Grim Tutor  is the card which is approaching the most its power.

[hauntedechos]

@ Storm:  I agree that we should keep things on the TTS topic.  After that fact, I'm glad that you find possibilities within this sample of D-Day piles, further I hope that you can run with it and innovate on the matter.  I found that pile with little effort beyond searching up doomsday deck and looking at the possible piles in 2008.

@Sunday:  I am still uncertain as to Researches inclusion within TTS.  The one thing I do know is that it pitches to force, and it's a tutor of sorts, and it aids us in combating Leyline and extirpate.  Whether this kind of aid is needed, is a matter of the pilots skill in contrast to what avenues of play the card can actually create for us.  Eric is of the opinion that it's not needed/good for the deck and that is fine, the rest of us are going to have to find out what we feel in the mean time.

@Kalisia: You wouldn't cast D-Day with out counter back up and or Duress before or during comboing out.  I agree that during the course of a game you will have sea, sea, mox/sea, out.  On turn two with sea, sea, and a moxen, upon resolution of Dark Ritual and then D-Day, you are looking to win right then, as a direct result of doomsday resolving.  The flexibility of Grim is something that I contrast to D-Day's ability to win on the spot.  Both enable a win, depending on their use, but D-Day ensures it when a Duress effect is preceding it and/or a counter is held whilst going off. 

In the context of your argument for Grim, comparing  vs  {1} casting costs:  One could say *tap sea,  , ritual  Grim for  ...* and continue the chain of spells into a lethal Tendrils.  Isn't that the same thing as going sea  , Ritual Doomsday, make pile, tap sea #2 Brainstorm/ Ponder/ Gush with  floating.....and win?  In both cases you have to forge a path to win, by selecting cards that will get you there.  Sure there are similarities, however I think (yet have no theoretical evidence as of yet) that the cards remaining in the deck would be a deciding factor.  Lastly, yet still on the last part, DoomsDay recoups the cards in the yard and allows me to play with them again, within the pile I make, Grim does not and thusly requires Yawgs Will at a different juncture of the combo.  I think that there both cards can make their own arguments, but in the end, I'm comfortable with both Doomsday's function and the price tag it comes with at the local shop.

Haunted.