Meadbert Manaless Ichorid Primer

[meadbert]

Hi Troy,  I have actually not experimented with River Kelpie yet.  I am guessing it will be bad based on previous experiences with other cards.  Here is why.  River Kelpie is only good if you have a Cabal Therapy in the yard to Flashback once he comes into play.  Usually this is the case, but it is very common that you do not have a Therapy in the yard.  In those cases River Kelpie is terrible.  I tested Yosei, The Morning Star a ton a long time ago.  I discovered that while he was amazing when you could sacrifice him the turn you played him, the rest of the time he was terrible and as a result almost every other option was better.  I want creatures with "Comes into play" abilities rather than "leaves play" abilities.

That said, my thinking on Dread Return and the creatures to run with it has changed dramatically since I started playing Ichorid.  I now see Bridge from the Below and Cabal Therapy as the deck's fundamentally strongest strategies.  Dread Return is only good once you have already processed your game plan and at that point you should already be winning.  For now I see Dread Return as insurance against Extirpate on Bridge from Below more than anything else.  In that case Golgari Grave-Troll is a great target so in a sense other Dread Return targets are "Win more."

If I were to play a tournament tomorrow I would probably run Darksteel Colossus and Wispmare in my "Dread Return Target" slots.  I am aware that DSC cannot be Dread Returned.  His purpose would be to allow you to defeat Painter's win and survive Brain Freeze.  The Wispmare is mostly for Oath in game 1.

I do believe that 12 Leyline removal is just too many.  I usually want 10-11 when I know to expect Leyline.  I also missed Darkblast #2 so I may actually drop Emerald Charm or the 4th Wispmare for a 2nd Darkblast to go in the board.  It depends on how many Shops show up.

Incidently, Shops are WAY underrepresented right now.  They are very good.  Basically almost no one played Shops in Richmond and yet a Shop deck still top 8ed both days.  The same is true of Dredge.

[Troy_Costisick]

Hi Troy,  I have actually not experimented with River Kelpie yet.  I am guessing it will be bad based on previous experiences with other cards.  Here is why.  River Kelpie is only good if you have a Cabal Therapy in the yard to Flashback once he comes into play.  Usually this is the case, but it is very common that you do not have a Therapy in the yard.  In those cases River Kelpie is terrible.  I tested Yosei, The Morning Star a ton a long time ago.  I discovered that while he was amazing when you could sacrifice him the turn you played him, the rest of the time he was terrible and as a result almost every other option was better.  I want creatures with "Comes into play" abilities rather than "leaves play" abilities.

Well, technically, it does have a comes into play ability.  I just thought it might have some nice synergy with Narcomoeba, Ichorid, Dread Return, and Cabal Therapy.  And since it works for your opponent's GY too, it's nice vs. Welder, Flash, and the occasional Dredge mirror. 

Peace,

-Troy

[meadbert]

It is definitely a good idea and it might work out.  Like I said, I have not tested it so by all means give it a try and let us know how it does.  Basically as soon as you or anyone else tells me that it is working out great for them then I will test on my own.

[wiley]

Any chance that we can see a tournament report from you meadbert?  Writing detailed notes for ichorid is next to impossible during a tournament, so I can understand if we don't get one.

Results in testing for my latest build:
Flash game 1 - 72:18 Ichorid wins (discard and mana denial to shut off draw/tutor chains proves too much by at least a turn the majority of the time)
Flash games 2-3 - 52:38 Ichorid wins (same thing here, but its harder since leyline gives them a 40% chance to win the game thanks to their incredible clock)

Oath game 1 - 43:47 Oath wins (Oath has an advantage since they have maindeck crypts, along with oaths to get two tyrants and it's over)
Oath game 2-3 - 58:32 Ichorid wins )chain is a house here, keep the second tyrant off the table and it feels like you have all the time in the world to beat them senseless, even when you have to rush your butt of to steal the win.  Again the maina denial to keep them from draw/tutors into counters is extremely relevant)

GAT is being retested to account for the new, improved list.  Otherwise the match on the whole was around 50/50, all three games were fairly even, the great equalizer for me was being able to slow/stop them by color screw and aggressively trying to keep fastbond off the table.  This is a strategy that has worked against most gush decks.

I stopped testing against traditional stax (builds including tangle wire and smokestack) when I went 30:0 in matches (these included games where ichorid mulled to death), either ichorid is destined to win that or I am absolutely horrible at playing stax(more likely).

Still testing DeezNoughts and Shop Aggro, wasteland is harmful but so far I have been able to make up for it with my own wastes.

I will soon be adding MS Paint to my lineup to see how hard it is to fight.  I'm leery right now about giving up a slot to dsc just to hedge one matchup.

[meadbert]

Here is a brief tournament report.  I did not take notes exactly, but I did write down what I saw with Therapy every time I Therapied.

Bazaar Stuff:
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Serum Powder
3 Petrified Field

Dredgers:
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
1 Darkblast

Beaters:
4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid

Fast disruption:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Unmask
4 Chalice of the Void

Flashback stuff:
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Wispmare

Mana for post board:
4 City of Brass

Sideboard:
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Emerald Charm
1 Wispmare

Round 1:  Steve Menendian playing GAT
Steve is the reigning World Champion.  I wish I had been playing just about anyone else in round 1.
Game 1 I mulligan to 1 and concede as soon as Steve drops turn 1 Dryad and know he is playing GAT.
Game 2 Steve keeps a hand with Jailer, but I drop turn 1 Chalice which stops Jailer for a turn and allows me to Emerald Charm Bazaar on turn 2 and go nuts.
Game 3 is SUPER close.  Basically it comes down to how many black creatures I have left in my library.  Steve counted 3 Thugs and 3 Imps that had been RFGed and assumed that since I had kept in 3 Thugs I must have a 4th imp in the library.  I actually board out an equal number of Imps and Thugs because of Extirpate.  I also tend to board out more Imps than Thugs because Thugs are easily hardcast post board and they play cute 2 for games with Narcomoeba.  Anyway, had Steve known I was out of black creatures he could have Echoing Truthed my Bridge tokens it would have been a draw but instead he Brainstormed to find something good and it did not work out. 
1-0 (2-1)  (0-1) (2-0)

Round 2: Ryan playing Flash
Game 1:  My opponent goes Sea, ESG, Demonic and I have no turn 1 Disruption.  He wins on turn 2.
Game 2:  I have Leyline and he cannot find removal.
Game 3:  This game goes really long as I have no gas but tons of disruption.  Basically he can never assemble a combo because of Therapies.
2-0 (4-2) (0-2) (4-0)

Round 3:  Eric playing Oath
Game 1:  Eric goes off with Yawg and ends up Brain Freezing me with 10 copies.  He also does about 10 damage to himself with fetches and Fastbond.  Unfortunately for him I had 31 cards left in my library and thus his Brain Freeze does exactly what my deck tries to do which is put my library in my graveyard.  I untap, draw my last card and win.

Game 2:  This game is super ridiculously close.  I am able to keep Oath off the board easily, but Eric uses Needle to keep my Bazaar at bay and I end up winning with 2 hardcast Wispmare, 2 hardcast Thugs and a hardcast Narcomoeba.  In hundreds of games of testing I have never won with hardcast Wispmare before.  I certainly did not think this would happen in this matchup.
3-0 (6-2) (1-2) (6-0)  Note:  Notice that I am 6-0 post board at this point.  Who knew Dredge could do this?

Round 4:  Eric Becker playing Painter with 3 maindeck Extirpate
Game 1: Extirpate on Grave-Troll is not enough and I win over a few turns.  I used Bridge Tokens to swing for the win but Dread Returned Ancestor's Chosen at one point.  I foolishly sacced Chosen to Therapy leaving me wide open to Echoing Truth, but Eric did not have it.
Game 2: Multiple Extirpates eventually all but lock me out of the game.
Game 3:  I do not remember this game and all I have for notes are 19, 18, 11 and then something that begins with P.  Maybe he had a Painer in hand?  Anyway I win.
4-0 (8-3) (2-2) (7-1)

Round 5: Edwin Colleran playing Slivers Flash
Game 1:  He plays turn 1 Sliver which is awesome because Bridge tokens block slivers.  I promptly get tokens out and win.
Game 2:  Apparently I Therapy him and see 2xForce, Scroll, Demonic and Summoners Pact. I am pretty sure I hosed him with Chalice this game, but maybe Leyline was out too.  Anyway, I win.
5-0 (10-3) (3-2) (8-1)

Round 6:  Dustin playing Dark Illusions.  (I should be able to draw in here but I am the only guy left 5-0 and Dustin cannot draw in thus we must play)
Game 1:  Dustin opens with Lotus, Dreadnaught, Stifle.  My only hope is to Dread Return Ancestor's Chosen on turn 2.  I get everything I need, but Dustin Stifles my turn 2 Bazaar activation and I am dead in the water.
Game 2:  I am carely to keep Darkblast in hand at all times and win despite his Jailers.
Game 3:  Jailer comes down too fast and I do not find Chain of Vapor or Darkblast in time.  I was actually about to start hardcasting Dudes, but his Wastes kept hitting City of Brass since Bazaar was neuterered by Jailer.
5-1 (11-5) (3-3) (9-2)

Round 7:  ID.  Note that I finish the Swiss with a 3-3 record in game 1 and a 9-2 record post board.

Note on Jeremy Seroogy / Dustin controversy - Jeremy might be able to draw in but his tie breakers are bad enough that he is at risk.   Meanwhile Dustin is in first and has the second best tiebreakers (behind me) and thus he can almost surely afford to lose and still make it in.  Seroogy fishes for a concession, but Dustin refuses saying it is possible however unlikely that he could lose out on top 8.  Seroogy's response is:
"First of all that won't happen, and second of all if it did I would probably feel so bad for you that I would give you the mox anyway."
At this point I left the table since I did not want to get caught up in whatever was going on.  I do not know what else was said.  Anyway, Jeremy was DQed for bribery.

Top 8:  John playing Shop Aggro
Game 1:  I blow him out of the water.
Game 2:  In this game John could Waste my Bazaar after my first turn, but instead uses Waste + Shop to cast Juggernaught.  I am not sure if this is the right play or not.  He had no other mana though.
On his next turn he then casts Juggs #2 rather than Wasting Bazaar.  That was definitely the wrong play since my Bazaar is helping me throw out 6 Tokens a turn which easily block Juggernaught.  In fact all Jugernaught does is give me a sac outlet to Narcomoeba.  Again I win.

Top 4:  Andy Probasco playing Painter (Eventual Champion)
Game 1:  He has turn 1 Painter and turn 2 Scroll for Pyroblast which I don't write down.  Instead I name REB with Therapy, but it does not matter as I have like 3 Therapies and rip out everything I need and win.
Game 2:  Andy had a turn 2 win, but Unmask buys me time before he maybe Extirpates something and then combos out.
Game 3:  I mistakenly board out most Leyline removal thinking Andy does not have Leyline but instead he finds Leyline.  It works out for me as I have removal and mana, but it takes FIVE turns for me to find my first dredger (I had 11 in my library.)  That gives Andy just enough time to win.


Ancestor's Chosen mostly sucked all tournament.  I only used him against Becker game 1.  Grave-Troll would have been better but it had been Extirpated.  Life total means nothing against a deck that decks you.
Note that my 7 opponents had win conditions consisting of:
1 Poison
3 Decking (2 Painter, 1 Tyrant Oath)
1 Infinite Damge
3 Finite Damage (GAT , Shop Aggro, Dark Illusions)

Ancestor's Chosen only helps against the last group, but Chosen would have totally bailed me out against the turn 1 Dreadnaught when I played Dustin and it is still good against GAT and Shop Aggro which are good decks so I am hesistant to drop it.  Also, I like having a second big body to Dread Return in case of Extirpate on Grave-Troll.

[zimmerbloke]

In response to your comments regarding the pre- and post-board records you recorded this past weekend, how much do you think this is a result of the "reverse engineering" you discussed in the first few posts of this primer?

To some extent, it seems like you were successful in attacking the historical weakness of Ichorid (post-board games) by building your deck for games 2 & 3.  Obviously, your skill and experience with the deck skews this number to some extent, but do you feel that the specific plans you built into the deck (ie, including some of your "sideboard" cards in the maindeck) were effective in the manner you hoped?

Congratulations on the finish, by the way.  I think you've stimulated some interesting thought in this archetype.  I also feel like this lends some credibility to the deck as skill intensive.

[wiley]

Ancestor's Chosen only helps against the last group, but Chosen would have totally bailed me out against the turn 1 Dreadnaught when I played Dustin and it is still good against GAT and Shop Aggro which are good decks so I am hesistant to drop it.  Also, I like having a second big body to Dread Return in case of Extirpate on Grave-Troll.

What other options have you tried in the past?  It would seem like Angel of Despair would have saved you against dreadnought, it has a fat butt against shop aggro (it would trade with juggs whereas ac can kill all day long [provided there are no swords involved], but you have the chance of destroying one before angel ever has to block).  The angel can also take out a painter or inactive grindstone, and it can randomly color screw flash at times.

Also, how often did you use petrified field?

[meadbert]

Angle of Despair is pretty good.  Also, note that she can serve Wispmare's function and destroy Oath of Druids.  That might be the best option going forward.  Even just destroying a land can be annoying for certain decks.

I barely used Petrified Fields for combatting Wasteland.  I only played two Wasteland decks. (Dark Illusions, Shop Aggro)
Against Shop Aggro Petrified Field would have been amazing to get back a Wasted Bazaar, but he chose not to Waste Bazaar and I had no field anyway.
Against Dark Illusions I was constantly using Petrified Fields to get back Wasted Rainbow lands so I could hardcast critters to block Yixlid Jailer and Dark Confidant.  Unfortuantley Dustin's Confidant kept drawing him into more Wastelands and this plan never really got started.

In general I still love Petrified Fields and am closer to jumping up to 4 rather than dropping them.  I do like your Wasteland idea.  In such a Gush heavy metagame, Wasteland may be better since it an cut opponents off Gush and as I have mentioned early it actually fights Wasteland fairly well since if they use one land drop to Waste Bazaar and you then waste their other land drop it means they are two land drops behind.

[Elfrago]

Some thoughts about the dread return guys:
- I would not play Darksteel Colossus in the maindeck, since he will often be dreged more than once each game. And this effectively decreases the number of cards you dredge in each game. Also, the painters matchup should not be that bad, since their counterspell's are almost useless and the deck packs enough disptruption to stop an early comboing from them. I like him more as a 1-of in the sideboard. Of course if painter is everywhere in your meta then go for it in the mainboard.

- I would consider Sundering Titan, it does exactly what you need (it's big, and it's a good clock on its own in case troll gets extirpated) and packs some useful disruption too.

[wiley]

My notes on Sundering Titan:

- He's fat.  That big ol' 10 on the butt side is relevant in a lot of matches.  The only two that can get around it are bersked tog/dryads and mister 12/12 himself.
- He eats your opponent's only way to interact with you.  Mana denial is not used as an end all be all in the current meta, I use it as a means to slow down my opponent just enough to bash their face in, this includes game 2-3 where I often leave 1-2 in to delay their new hate (this means I often bring in chains and little else).  Keeping mana tied up means no draw spell and tutor chains.
- He beats hard.  7 power means he is almost always good enough to return over troll since troll averages 8-12 for me, but doesn't blow up lands.
- He gets chumped all over the place.  This isn't too relevant as troll gets chumped too.
- Opponents don't like to bounce him.  When I would return a troll he would occasionally get bounced, which is bad for me since I spent precious resources getting him into play.  If Titan is bounced he does his job all over again and I am usually happy with the trade.
- He can be sac'ed to therapy for a douple dip.  With troll you never wanted to do something like this.  With titan you can sac to therapy naming e truth or scroll and use a zombie to flash another one back.
- He doesn't answer current threats.  This is my biggest gripe with him over the angel, if your opponent already oathed up one tyrant then you have to empty their entire hand befor the end of turn or troll and titan are both dead in the water.  If it were angel you could kill the tyrant and still be relatively safe (if they didn't combo with only one out before there is a good chance they won't be able to do it next turn either).  If your opponent gets a turn 1 12/12 trampler you are sol with titan, and troll often won't be big enough for that until turn 3 when they will have answers to it.  Angel would be the only recourse there.

Basically my build has the roughest time against dark illusions (the one that has 4 12/12s main, not DeezNoughts) becouse of the ridiculous clock that I simply can't answer if it comes out turn 1.  That said I still have a decent match because I can consistantly keep both Dark Illusions and DeezNoughts off 3 mana if I get down a chalice or steal their moxen with therapies (therapies should go after the tutors and draw spells first imo).

Also, in my testing against MUD (I'm using the 'MAD MUD' build put forth by madmanmike tat runs ~6 strip effects) I find that 1-2 bazaar activations are all I ever need, my wastes take out shops and my robot trumps their robots.  It's a hard fight at times, and you will lose if they get more than 1 sphere effect in addition to wasting your lands, but it is a winnable match if you attack their hand correctly.

[Anusien]

I talked to you briefly at the event, but Tormod's Crypt is just so good right now.  I remember talking about Bomberman versus Ichorid and how much Bomberman should roll Ichorid, only to lose game 1 on the draw to a turn 0 Chalice of the Void when I had Tormod's Crypt.  It's weird that it's so good now with Moxen numbers on the way down, but even decks like Oath are MDing Tormod's Crypt.  It can just randomly hose people so well...

[Troy_Costisick]

It is definitely a good idea and it might work out.  Like I said, I have not tested it so by all means give it a try and let us know how it does.  Basically as soon as you or anyone else tells me that it is working out great for them then I will test on my own.

Okay, I've done quite a bit of testing with River Kelpie. Honestly, it's scary how fast he accelerates this deck.  You win the turn you Dread Return the Kelpie to play.  Here is the list I am using at the moment:

// Lands (9)
        4 Bazaar of Baghdad
        4 City of Brass
        2 Petrified Field
// Creatures (25)
        3 River Kelpie
        4 Golgari Grave-Troll
        4 Golgari Thug
        4 Ichorid   
        4 Narcomoeba
        4 Stinkweed Imp
        1 Flame-kin Zealot
        1 Angel of Despair
// Enchantments (8)
        4 Bridge from Below
        4 Leyline of the Void
// Spells (14)
        4 Cabal Therapy
        4 Dread Return
        4 Unmask
        2 Darkblast
// Artifacts (4)
        4 Serum Powder
// Sideboard
SB:  4 Chain of Vapor
SB:  4 Emerald Charm
SB:  4 Gemstone Mine
SB:  2 Wispmare
SB:  1 Petrified Field

Of course, my results are based solely on my interpretation of how all the effects stack.  Typically, my games have gone like this:

-Opening Hand:

1 Golgari Thug
1 Stinkweed Imp
1 Bazaar of Baghdad
1 City of Brass
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Serum Powder
1 Bridge from Below

-Turn 1:  

-Play Bazaar, draw Darkblast and River Kelpie.  Discard Stinkweed Imp, Bridge from Below, Golgari Thug.  

-Turn 2:

-Dredge 5 for Draw: put Golgari Grave-Troll, Bridge from Below, Dread Return, Golgari Thug, Petrified Field in GY.

-Tap Bazaar, Dredge 6 for first draw: put Golgari Grave Troll, Narcomoeba, Cabal Ritual, City of Brass, River Kelpie, Unmask in Graveyard.
Then Dregde 6 for second Draw: put Stinkweed Imp, Narcomoeba, Golgari Thug, Leyline of the Void, Dread Return, Flamekin Zealot in Graveyard.
Discard 2 Golgari Grave Trolls and a Cabal Therapy into GY.

-There are 2 Narcomoebas in play.  Sacrifice 1 Narco to play Cabal Ritual for "some card".  Put 2 Zombie tokens in play.  

-Sacrifice 2 Zombies and 1 Narcomoeba to play Dread Return on River Kelpie which generates a draw effect.

-Dredge 6 for the Kelpie's Draw effect: put Bazaar of Baghdad, Dark Blast, Golgari Grave Troll, Angel of Dispair, Narcomoeba, and Lelyine of the Void into GY.

-1 New Narcomoeba is put in play which generats another draw effect.

-Dredge some more cards.  Sac Kelpie to play Cabal Therapy.  Kelpie comes back via Persist.  This puts 2 draw effects on the stack (and this is where I might be unclear on the rules).  

-Dredge a bunch more cards. By now, almost the whole deck will be in the Graveyard.  3 Zombie tokens come into play from Kelpie sacrifice.

-Sacrifice Kelpie, Narcomoeba, and a Zombie to play Dread Return on Flame-kin Zealot.  8 Zombie tokens come into play.  Flamekin Zealot comes into play.  

-Attack and win.

Kelpie can generate anywhere from two to 4 draws the turn it comes into play.  it makes it possible to the turn it comes into play easily.  What are your thoughts?

Peace,

-Troy

[meadbert]

Kelpie can generate anywhere from two to 4 draws the turn it comes into play.  it makes it possible to the turn it comes into play easily.  What are your thoughts?

Based on this comment sounds like River Kelpie is very similar to Cephalid Sage which always draws you 3 cards the turn it comes into play.  Reading your won exaple it sounds like River Kelpie is actually much better!.  I like being able to sac him to Persist and have him come back.  That seems good with Bridge from Below.

I have seen enough that I will test him.  I will probably try this Dread Return suite.

3 Dread Return
2 River Kelpie
1 Flame-Kin Zealot

Sound good?

[Troy_Costisick]

Kelpie can generate anywhere from two to 4 draws the turn it comes into play.  it makes it possible to the turn it comes into play easily.  What are your thoughts?

Based on this comment sounds like River Kelpie is very similar to Cephalid Sage which always draws you 3 cards the turn it comes into play.  Reading your won exaple it sounds like River Kelpie is actually much better!.  I like being able to sac him to Persist and have him come back.  That seems good with Bridge from Below.

I have seen enough that I will test him.  I will probably try this Dread Return suite.

3 Dread Return
2 River Kelpie
1 Flame-Kin Zealot

Sound good?

That's probably a lot more streamlined than my list.  I included 3 Kelpies and 4 Dread Returns just to make sure I got them by turn 2.  But your list allows you to run some more disruption (Chalice of the Void for instance) which is very important.  A word of caution about the Kelpie, you'll be amazed at how many cards he can draw you in a turn.  I've had several games where I could have decked myself with him easily.  I usually sac him to a Dread Return just to get him out of play.  Otherwise the Dread Return would result in 2 on-the-stack draw effects that would resolve before the Dread Return resolves. Nice if you have 10+ cards left in your library, bad if you don't.  Good luck with your testing!  I plan to continue mine.

Peace,

-Troy

EDIT:  further testing has shown that a Kelpie in play actually generates at least 3 to 6 draws, not 2 to 4.  Since a a minimum you get a draw off Kelpie coming into play, Persist returning him to play after the cost of Cabal Therapy or Dread Return is paid, and the resolution of Cabal Therapy/Dread Return.  So you will get at least 3 draws almost no matter what as long as you have something like a Cabal Therapy in your GY.  Pretty amazing really.

[saradoc]

I know that this post is about Manales Ichorid, but I also would want to talk about the mana version. I´ve been playing ichorid for 2 years, starting with meadberts list with Gigapede and sutured ghoul and nowadays I´m playing with the following mana version.

Fowchorid

4 Force of Will
4 Cabal therapy
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from below
4 Putrid imp
4 Golgari grave-troll
4 Stinkweed imp
3 Golgari thug
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful study
4 Bazaar of baghdad
4 Cephalid coliseum
3 City of brass
2 Gemstone mine
1 Black lotus
1 Mox sapphire
1 Mox jet
1 Lotus petal

Side

4 Chain of vapor
3 Pithing needle
3 Tormod´s crypt
2  Contagion
3 Emerald charm


With this list I made Top17 in Apocalypse in Piacenza, a 180 men tournament in Italy, with a 5-1-1 and the same points as top16. In my opinion this build has some advantages with the manaless one. First of all the mulligan ratio is the same as in any other convencional deck like GAT, MUD, etc, which makes allmost imposible going to mulligan into oblion. Apparently it kills slower than manales, but in fact you can make quicker wins because of brekthrough. On this build I played FoW instead of Unmask because of the high number of blue cards on it, and it worked reallly great, countering a lot of cards during the torunament.

The disadvantages with manaless are that in lots of games you have to play spells, so your opponent can counter them, but most of the people do not counter a putrid imp or a crefull study. Brekthrough is a must counter, because it is obvious that if it resolves ichorid wins. This evrsion has a first game lower victory ratio, but side games vistory ratio increases a lot. You do not have to side in lands, so you have more slots in your sideboard. Playing again with needle on ichorid is great against tormods crypt, wasteland and MUD.

So, what dou you think about mana ichorid?

[Skadrian]

Why not use Woodfall Primus instead of angel? It cant target creatures or block platz, but it cant be chumped, and when sacced to therapy it comes back to take another permanent

[Troy_Costisick]

I know that this post is about Manales Ichorid, but I also would want to talk about the mana version.

If you know that your post is off topic, why didn't you just start a separate thread?

Peace,

-Troy

[Elfrago]

Why not use Woodfall Primus instead of angel? It cant target creatures or block platz, but it cant be chumped, and when sacced to therapy it comes back to take another permanent

Usually angel (or duplicant) is played as an aswer to Platinium Angel in the first game. Woodfall can't do that.

@saradoc: weird list, especially the lack of dread return. An extirpate on Ichorid slows you too much without them .

[saradoc]

If you know that your post is off topic, why didn't you just start a separate thread?

It is almost the same deck, I don´t think it should have a separate thread. Thanks for your comment.

@Elfrago: I don´t play with return anymore because in my opinion it is a win more. At least 5 main slots for only a 1 turn earlier win on games that you are going to win with the tokens and ichorids. I think it is better to have more disruption for those games that are more dificult than having dead cards on games that you are going to win anyway. Extirpate could be a problem, but we have maindeck mana, so we can hardcast Putrid Imp, or Stinkweed Imp, or Golgari thug, or even moebas, I know it is not the best plan, but I have won some matches attacking with this guys.

[meadbert]

Very interesting list!  This is the first list I have seen that incorporates Force of Will.  Why did you leave out Ancestral Recall?  Are you worried about Misdirection?  It turns out that Ancestral Recall can actually act as a discard effect simply because you can Ancestral yourself on turn 1 and then discard Grave-Troll at end of turn.

Do you run enough mana to support Time Walk?

[saradoc]

Yes, I have cut ancestral because of misdirection. It could be great to dredge 3 cards for U, but it can be to risky. I have also tested Time Walk, but as a single card without any tutor I didn´t like it.
Now Im testing deep analysis and it works great, the problem with this list is that if you open via breakthrough or careful study, the next turns you are only going to dredge via draw step (if you don´t have coliseum). Deep Analysis resolves this problem quite good, the 1U can be paid without problems (except against wastelands or spheres) and gives you the final boost to win the game. It also pitches to FoW, increasing the cards you don´t mind to pitch, like moebas in your hand, because dredging you can find very easy the second one.

I have also tested Drowned Rusalka as an aditional discard-dredge engine and token generator, but paying U for the sacrifice made it too slow. The same thing for Thoughtpicker Witch.

[feyd]

River kelpie would be pretty good I was just wondering the rules asscoiated with him.  If, for instance, you sacrifice him to cabal therapy you would not be able to draw two cards (if he has no -1/-1 counters) because when you play the spell it will be too late for his second ability to trigger.  He will be in the grave with the persist trigger on the stack when you are playing cabal theapy.  Also I don't think you could sacrifice him to dread return tryiong to target river kelpie, you have to announce targets during announcement of a spell.  Other than that he would be an excellent addition so it would seem.  His immediate advatages are ogvershadowed by his long term bonuses even though I use "long term" in the sense that he will be used throughout an entire turn rather than immediately giving you an effect like cephalid sage.

[Troy_Costisick]

If, for instance, you sacrifice him to cabal therapy you would not be able to draw two cards (if he has no -1/-1 counters) because when you play the spell it will be too late for his second ability to trigger.  He will be in the grave with the persist trigger on the stack when you are playing cabal theapy.

Here's my understanding of the rules and it may be flawed, so perhaps we can hash that out.  You sacrifice River Kelpie to pay the Flashback cost on Cabal Ritual.  Cabal Ritual then goes on the stack.  Then the Persist ability of River Kelpie goes on the stack.  Persist resolves.  Then the Draw effect from River Kelpie goes on the Stack.  The Draw effect resolves.  Then Cabal Therapy resolves triggering another Draw effect.  The Draw effect then resolves. 

I don't believe that the Persist can trigger in between paying the cost of Cabal Therapy and the Resolution of Therapy.  However, I do believe that Persist will trigger the moment Cabal Therapy hits the stack since this is when triggered and activated abilites that can be played at instant speed are allowed to be played.

Does anyone know if that line of reasoning is flawed?

Peace,

-Troy

[Lou]

If, for instance, you sacrifice him to cabal therapy you would not be able to draw two cards (if he has no -1/-1 counters) because when you play the spell it will be too late for his second ability to trigger.  He will be in the grave with the persist trigger on the stack when you are playing cabal theapy.

Here's my understanding of the rules and it may be flawed, so perhaps we can hash that out.  You sacrifice River Kelpie to pay the Flashback cost on Cabal Ritual.  Cabal Ritual then goes on the stack.  Then the Persist ability of River Kelpie goes on the stack.  Persist resolves.  Then the Draw effect from River Kelpie goes on the Stack.  The Draw effect resolves.  Then Cabal Therapy resolves triggering another Draw effect.  The Draw effect then resolves. 

I don't believe that the Persist can trigger in between paying the cost of Cabal Therapy and the Resolution of Therapy.  However, I do believe that Persist will trigger the moment Cabal Therapy hits the stack since this is when triggered and activated abilites that can be played at instant speed are allowed to be played.

Does anyone know if that line of reasoning is flawed?

Peace,

-Troy

Flawed reasoning, for sure.

Just asked Klep and boys on MIRC, and the rules were checked and it does not work. CR 409.1 if you want to look it up.

I definitely don't see Kelpie being as good as Cephalid Sage.

[feyd]

I am almost positive things go something like this:  You announce a spell, declare all targets, set all modifiers, choose modes.  Pay all costs of spell which include additional costs and or/suplementary costs (fireball, chalice of the void, engineered explosives).  When all costs are paid you play the spell.  Then the spell goes on the stack.  There is no stack interaction between announcing spells and there placement on the stack.  That would mean triggered affects must wait until there is an appropriate time to use the stack.
In practice that means that river kelpie will not be around to have its second ability trigger if you sacrifice him to play the flashback cost of cabal therapy.

Example:  River kelpie is in play with no -1/-1 counters on him.  Cabal therapy is in the grave.  Announce cabal therapy.  Pay its cost: sacrifice a creature.  You have now played cabal therapy and it goes on the stack.  Persist goes on the stack.  Resolves.  Draw effect goes on stack.  Resolves.  Cabal therapy resolves.

Side note:  Kelpie is in play, with a -1/-1 counter on him, along with two other creatures.  You can not flashback dread return targeting kelpie because you must choose all targets of a spell during announcement.

[Troy_Costisick]

I am almost positive things go something like this:  You announce a spell, declare all targets, set all modifiers, choose modes.  Pay all costs of spell which include additional costs and or/suplementary costs (fireball, chalice of the void, engineered explosives).  When all costs are paid you play the spell.  Then the spell goes on the stack.  There is no stack interaction between announcing spells and there placement on the stack.  That would mean triggered affects must wait until there is an appropriate time to use the stack.
In practice that means that river kelpie will not be around to have its second ability trigger if you sacrifice him to play the flashback cost of cabal therapy.

Yeah, I think you are correct.  That's how it should work.

I definitely don't see Kelpie being as good as Cephalid Sage.

I have to disagree.  When you Dread Return him the first time, you get to draw a card.  Every time you dredge a Narcomoeba into play you get to draw a card.  Each time you put Ichorid into play you get to draw a card.  Each time you play Cabal Therapy or Dread Return (sacrificing a different creature) while Kelpie is in play you get to draw a card.  When he comes back into play from Persist you get to draw a card.  You can sacrifice him twice to generate zombie tokens vs. only once with Sage.  Kelpie has a lot of things going for him IMHO.  He's just not as busted as I thought, which is fine because I had to be careful not to deck myself when I thought I was getting draws off the Therapy.  Now the deck is much less risky.

Peace,

-Troy

[RThomas]

To clarify this last query, when playing Cabal Therapy from the graveyard with River Kelpie being sacrificed, the stack from top to bottom reads:

Persist trigger
Cabal Therapy

The Cabal Therapy would always be at the bottom of the stack because you play it and put it on the stack first. 

Play: The act of playing a spell, land, or ability involves announcing the action and taking the necessary steps to complete it. Playing a spell or activated ability requires paying any costs and choosing any required modes and/or targets.

409.1i Once the steps described in 409.1a–h are completed, the spell or ability becomes played. Any
abilities that trigger on a spell or ability being played or put onto the stack trigger at this time. If
the spell or ability’s controller had priority before playing it, he or she gets priority.

Since the River Kelpie is not in play at the time the spell's costs are completed, the second trigger will not enter the stack.

In my opinion this card has the same role as Cephalid Sage, both in theory and practice.  I feel that it functions a bit like Strip Mine used to: it has a similar function, but it makes your decisions a bit more difficult.

[feyd]

The main difference I see between kelpie and sage is that kelpie can, with luck, create a great many draw efects in a single turn although without the added discard effect.  The fact that kelpie would most likely come into play after you tap your bazaar for the turn would mean that while his potential for drawing cards is great although the actual ammount of dredging that can be done may be limited.  You could, though, turn your therapies against yourself if you find yourself holding one or more troll/imp/thug.  
     While the draw effect is very powerful its power can be offset by the lack of the discard element.  I wonder if it would fit more comfortably in mana'd ichorid instead of manaless ichorid.  Mana'd ichorids abundance of discard effects could possibly create an enormous combo turn with kelpie in play; manaless ichorid is more stable with less discard outlets.  Kelpie would likely grow in power immensly with a reusable discard outlet such as putrid imp.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

the problem with river kelpie is that when ever you in a position to reanimate something, cephalid sage will always be a better option simply because it doesn't need any extra pieces to start dedging. Also, river kelpie just won't win games nearly as easily or as fast as simply playing a breakthrough. River kelpie  is just overly complex and a "win more" card.

[feyd]

I disagree that kelpie is a win more card.  I think that, if it finds it's home in either manaless or mana'd dredge, kelpie is a strategic direction to take with the deck.  While I have said that kelpie could be more explosive in a single turn it can, in contrast, be much more powerful if you use its abilities over a period of two turns or more.  Having three card draws/dredges in a row can be powerful but having a draw for each cabal therapy/dread return you play and every narcomoeba that is put into play via dredge can be a ridiculously powerful asset.  The main complaint I have for kelpie is that it does not contain a discard effect within its abilities.  Bazaar, however, handily remedies that issue.  As does putrid imp, breakthrough, cabal therapy, unmask, and careful study.  The main issue, though, is getting him into play and the timing at which he is brought into play; if he is dread returned after you have two or more of either/or cabal therapy/narcomoeba in grave or in play his effect is greatly diminished. While I can see how, at the point where it would be pertinent to dread return a creature, he may pale in comparison to a sage his longevity is not to be dismissed. 
     In the end sage certainly delivers a much more powerful, though singular, effect kelpie has a lasting effect throught the turn(s) in which he is starring.  I suppose it all comes down to number crunching: sage will always, regardless of when you reanimate him, have a powerful effect while kelpie's power depends on where the game state is.  If you have already had to therapy or have a narcomoeba or two in play already he may seem lackluster.  His alure is also diminished when you are staring down a LOTV or a crypt.  Kelpie is more of a wildcard in terms of playability/power in comparison to sage but he can also greatly outshine sage if he shows up at the right time.