Meadbert Manaless Ichorid Primer

[meadbert]

Hi All,
  From time to time I receive questions about how to build Ichorid decks.  Although most of this information is contained in the SCG thread it is usually on page 20 or some other hard to find location.  Here is the current list that I am running.

Draw Stuff:
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Serum Powder
3 Petrified Field

Dredgers:
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
1 Darkbast

Beaters:
4 Bridge from Below
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba

Free Disruption:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Unmask
4 Chalice of the Void

Flashback Stuff:
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
2 Ancestor's Chosen

Mana:
4 City of Brass

Sideboard:
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Emerald Charm
2 Wax/Wane
1 Darkblast

First of all a Darkblast in the board could be swapped with a City of Brass in the main.  The reason I run 4 Cities in the main is so I can win the mirror.  Otherwise I would rather have an extra dredger.

This list was built inside out.  Rather than choosing an optimal main deck and then figuring out which 15 cards to add to the sideboard I instead figured out which cards I wanted in the sideboard and then crafted a maindeck.  Through simulations I know that the fastest was to beat a single Leyline of the Void that does not have counter protection is to run 9 Leyline removal spells and 9 mana sources.  Once counters and Duresses are considered 10 Leyline removal spells and 8 mana sources makes more sense.  I needed those 18 cards in my board.
Yixlid Jailer is another problem.  To deal with Jailer I wanted 10 spells.  Chain of Vapor doubles as Leyline removal and Jailer removal so that counts.  Also Unmask can grab Jailer.  That leaves 2 more spells.  Most run Contagion, but I run darkblast, since this card may get put in the main and it dredges.  Other common cards are Pithing Needle and Wasteland.   Needle is not as bad as Jailer.  Needle can be Unmaskek or removed with Chain of Vapor.  Needle can also be adressed by using your discard phase and dredging.  Darkblast helps against Needle since it gives you more dredgers.  The best solution to Wasteland is Petrified Field.  I know that running more than 10 Lands is not a good idea as you have dead Lands in hand.  This is why I only run 3.

My sideboard must also contain Leyline of the Void to defeat Flash + Ichorid.

My oversized sideboard contains:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Unmask
2 Darkblast
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Emerald Charm
2 Wax/Wane
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Petrified Field

That is 31 cards so 16 must be moved to the maindeck.  The first are Unmask and Leyline of the Void.  These cards are nearly optimal for the main deck.  Next would be Petrified Field which is probably optimal.   Darkblast could be third, but I am worried about beating the Ichorid mirror and I need rainbow lands so I can hardcast Thug and Narcomoeba to defeat Dryad Arbor.  For this reason I add 4 City of Brass and then finally a Darkblast.
This leaves room for 44 more cards in the maindeck.
Here are autoincludes:
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Serum Powder
12 Dredgers
12 Bridge/Narco/Ichorid
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return

This only leaves 2 more cards.  I refuse to drop dredgers so I can add a ton of Dread Return creatures.  Assembling either the Sutured Ghoul combo or the Flame-Kin Zealot combo would require running 8 or more Dread Return specific cards.  This deck has room for 4 such cards.

Post board you virtually always board out your Dread Return creature so there is no point dropping sideboard cards that you will use twice per round in very important games so you can tweak your main deck in game 1 which you will probably win either way.

The best standalone Dread Return creature is Ancestor's Chosen.  I have now Dread Returned him 128 times and only lost 3 games where I did it.
These three games are as follows:
1:  Dragon combos out next turn after ripping Animate off the top.
2:  Izzet combos out next turn when I did not have Therapies needed to pillage its hand.
3:  After Emptying Long's hand and getting my life total over 100 Long rips Wheel of Fortune off the top and proceeds to cast Wheel, Twister, Wheel, Twister, Wheel, Tendrils, Yawg, Wheel, Tendrils.  The result is that I would have lost at almost any life total!

The vast majority of the time gaining 40 life is enough to bury your opponent.  All sorts of aggro decks are easily beat by Dread Returning Ancestor's Chosen.

Ichorid generally loses game 1 in 1 of four ways:
1:  Wasteland + Aggro:  This is the most common way to lose game 1.  Petrified Field is an answer here as is having Ancestor's Chosen and an extra dredger in Darkblast.  Unmask can grab the best beater to buy you time.  Chalice delays when creatures are played.
2:  Mulligan to oblivion:  Nothing to be done here.
3:  Fast combo.  Ancestor's Chosen makes it very difficult for Tendrils based combo to obtain the required storm.  Storming for 30 with Leyline out or with Chalice out or after being Unmasked and Therapied is tough.  Unmask is important in this matchup since it can grab combo pieces.  This is especially true against Flash where Unmask can almost always grab one half of the combo.
4:  Maindeck hate:  Leyline shows up in the mirror.  For the mirror you have 7 mana sources and 8 critters to hardcast.  Also you have your own Leyline of the Void.  If Goblines drops Leyline you just lost.

Assuming Ichorid wins game 1, game 2 is quite difficult as your opponent brings in hate and you are stuck on the draw and not know which hate your opponent has access to.  The final and crucial game that determines the winner of the round is game three when you are on the play and know which hate your opponent has.  Card selection is based heavily on this criteria.

Here are how each strategy is defeated:
1:  Leyline + Chalice@1.  If anyone starts running Serum Powder Stax they can assemble this combo quite frequently.  Luckily, in the game that counts you are on the play thus you can remove Leyline before Stax ever has a chance to play Chalice.  Against non Serum Powder Stax decks they are highly unlikely to get Leyline, Chalice@1 and the requisite mana.  This happens but not often enough to give them a favorable matchup.
2:  Leyline + Counter backup.  I also remove Leyline as quickly as I can.  If my first Leyline removal spell is countered or if I have not found one by turn 2, then by all means throw out Cabal Therapy and name Force of Will.  This will clear the way for when you do draw your Leyline removal.  Also, hold on to your best dredger if possible.  Essentially you are drawing 3 cards a turn and you have 18 ways to remove Leyline or rip counters so blue based control has no prayer of protecting their Leyline for more than a few turns.
3:  Just Leyline.  You should remove this by turn 2 most of the time and just win.
4:  Jailer:  On the play he is not so threatening.  First you can Unmask him.  Second you can Darkblast him.  Third you can Chain of Vapor him.  Decks that run Jailer generally run aggro so just a turn and a half of dredging is enough to cause trouble.  Since you can usually dredge Darkblast after Chaining him you are likely to be able to remove him when he comes back down.  Finally Chalice basically answers Jailer.  Without a Mox Jailer becomes a turn 2 play and this means you have a chance to Therapy him on your turn 2.  Between Chalice, Chain, Unmask and Darkblast there are plenty of ways to answer Jailer.
5:  Pithing Needle:  On the play you still get a Bazaar activation which is frequently all you need.  Basically you want as many dredgers as possible so having access to 10 dredgers versus 4 Pithing Needle.dec is useful.  Also Needle can be Chained and a combo that use fairly frequently is to Chain eot and then activate Bazaar.  Then on my upkeep and activate Bazaar again, Emerald Charm Bazaar, and activate Bazaar for a third time.  This is more than enough to win.  Needle can be Unmasked also.
6:  Wasteland:  Petrified Field and more dredgers are the best solution to Wasteland.  Petrified Field helps for explosive turn 3s in general but with Wasteland out it regrowths your wasted Bazaar.
7:  Tormod's Crypt:  Can be grabbed with Unmask and is stopped by Chalice.
8:  Platinum Angle:  Can be Unmasked.  Chalice stops Tinker or Welder.  Chan be Chain of Vapored.  If it blocks a token you can Wax/Wane the token to remove Angel.  If it attacks you can Emerald Charm it to remove flying and block it with two tokens.  If your opponent neither blocks nor attacks with Platinum Angel then you will draw Chain soon enough and win in that manner.

How to board in general:
-3 Petrified Field
-4 Leyline of the Void
-2 Ancestor's Chosen
-1 Dread Return
-2 Stinkweed Imp
-1 Golgari Thug
-1 Ichorid
-1 Narcomoeba
+15 whole sideboard

If you opponet is playing Flash or Ichorid then you leave Leylines in and drop something else.  In the case of Ichorid Therapies can go.

If you are playing Wasteland.dec or Sphere of Resistance.dec then keep in Petrified Fields and drop something else instead.  Against Stax they wil not have counters so you can reduce the number of Leyline Removal Spells.

How are these strategies effective?  First of all because of Darkblast you still have 11 dredgers which is just fine.  The reason I run 3 Thugs and 2 Imps is because Thug is easier to hardcast and this comes up frequently.  You can play games with Thug and Narcomoeba where you cast Thug, chump block or sac to Therapy and put Narcomoeba on top.  Next turn you dredge Thug putting Narcomoeba into play and repeat.  With a Bridge in the yard this generates 4 creatures a turn.  Dredgers are not a problem.

1 Dread Return and no Dread Return creatures?
Dread Return is not that good.  Bridge from Below is way better than Dread Return is.  Dread Return simply dodges Extirpate by allowing you to win by recurring your Ichorids once.  Winning by Extirpate is hard since Extirpate #1 should hit Bridge.  This leaves Narco, Ichorid and Dread Return to ruin your opponent.  As far as Dread Return creatures go, Golgari Grave-Troll is just fine.  He is huge and must be answered.

Combo?
Combo is a problem post board.  Grim Long players can basically roll a die in their head and choose for either a quick win or bring in hate.  If you guess wrong you lose.  Consider:
Game 1 I win easily.
Game 2 I board into Leyline hate fearing Leyline.  My opponent keeps his main deck.  Although I have Leyline removal and 3 turn clock my opponent combos out on turn 2 which is a turn and a half ahead of me.
Game 3:  I board out some Leyline hate to add speed.  Long brings in Leyline and I can't find Chain of Vapor and lose!

What about Reverent Silence, Contagion and Dryad Arbor:
Dryad Arbor:  So he is a 1/1 creature which is bad.  He is also a land that comes into play with summoning sickness.  That is bad.  As a mana source he is a Forest which comes into play tapped.  That is bad.  Dryad Arbor is sort of nice in that he can sacrifice to Dread Return or Cabal Therapy as well as produce mana.  The problem is who wants to wait till turn 3 to remove their opponent's Leyline of the Void.  Waiting that extra turn gives your opponent a chance to Scroll for Force or get Drain Mana up.

Reverent Silence:  So I never liked this card much.  Then I found out it was a sorcery.  This makes it much worse as your opponent can hold Drain mana up on your turn and still cast Brainstorm, Thirst, Mystical or any other instant speed draw/tutor EOT.  With Chain of Vapor and other instant speed removal you can catch your opponent with their pants down when they cast their draw spells.  The fact that Reverent Silence removes your own Leyline against Ichorid and Flash is quite bad.  What is nice is that Reverent Silence dodges Chalice@1.

Contagion: Pretty good card.  I almost used it instead of Darkblast, but I realilzed that I really like the dredging when I was faced with Pithing Needle or Wasteland.

[SonataOfTheCathedral]

I'm working on Ichorid right now as well, but here is what I found interesting, game one you don't need lands. That's why Dryad Arbor is good. It becomes some stupid dude. Game 2 and three, he can be useful. I also feel the reason Ichorid looses consistently is because it just can't draw lands to answer hate. I think you need 12 or 11 (thats what successful builds in other formats used) colored mana sources postboard to be able to do something relevant consistently.

So game 1 I think having a mana base of the following would be good.

2 Dryad Arbor
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills

Your lands always turn into a dork game 1. Which is fine. Like we all know, mana is basically useless.

Postboard you bring in three Tropical Islands and Chain Of Vapors, Reverant Silence (multiple enchantments are bad) and Contagions in some matches. I'm also currently not playing Leyline of The Void. It's just not doing anything for me. I accept an Ichorid mirror loss because I am just not that worried about it personally.

Also I am content with two Cephalid Sages and a Flam Kin Zealot as my Dread Returns pieces. Sometimes I think of Ghoul, but it hasn't backfire enough yet. I really haven't tried Ancestors Chosen, but I see a problem by not winning, if my opponent can start playing relevant cards I can simply lose by decking myself. Lets admit after a Dread Return, my deck is pretty thin there.

Chalice on the draw should go out in a lot of matches. I disagree with that as well.

[nataz]

^^
at the whole fetches and dryad plan:

are fetches really what you want here? I see the plus side in having your mana always be doods g1 (if there are doods left to search out), but g2 things change. G2 you seem to really want a colored source, yet you are only SBing in 3 extra lands. The fetch lands seem dangerous since its quite possible you dredge away the trops and are left with only useless fetches. Why not just play 4 trops, 4 or the UG new fetchie, and 1 forest/island/5color land or something?

@ meatbert, on chosen

I've never really understood the love. Sure 40+ life is a pretty big speed bump for decks to over come, but why not just win instead? In my experience FKZ doesnt fizzel out all that often, and I lose way more games to decking then I do to life totals = zero. I'd almost always rather just win now.

[DarkfnTemplar]

I have to agree. The chosen target, while good pre-aggro meta, is not that much of a problem now. With shop decks and black/green fish decks running huge aggro AND lockdown, you need to win fast, not buy time for a more secure win.
Not to mention, extirpate will see more play and leyline, less in the new black/green aggro.control decks. Thats much worse if your planning the chosen route.
I would give a much more full retort and ideology, but you covered much of what I would say, and my list is just a different outlook. The discrepancies don't differ in game play drastically anyways.

[meadbert]

I've never really understood the love. Sure 40+ life is a pretty big speed bump for decks to over come, but why not just win instead? In my experience FKZ doesnt fizzel out all that often, and I lose way more games to decking then I do to life totals = zero. I'd almost always rather just win now.

FKZ is definitely faster and rarely fizzles.  I should have made this more clear in my original post.  I am a big fan of "winning now."  This is especially true for a deck that is as fragile as Manaless Ichorid.  You never know when Tormod's Crypt will be ripped off the top.

Really, the only advantage of Ancestor's Chosen is that you get an effect which is nearly as good using half as many cards.  Because the FKZ plan usually needs multiple Dread Returns most folks run 4 Dread Returns, 2 Flame-Kin Zealot and 2 Cephalid Sage.  By replacing those 8 cards with 4 I delay winning by a turn, but essentially open my sideboard up to 4 more cards.

Aggro is absolutely not the problem.  Gaining 40 life just beats heavy aggro.  The only risk are combo decks that can deck you.
As far as being decked I would recommend never dredging so much that you expect to win with fewer than 11 cards in your yard.  If your opponent is able to go Wheel, Yawg, Wheel and beat you then they earned.  It is for too easy to play Wheel and Ancestral to deck you or to use Jar and Ancestral.  I do frequently lose to being decked by Long, which is why I have become more conservative about dredging.

Regarding the 6 Fetch, 2 Dryad plan.  The mainissue here is which cards are you dropping?  If you are planning on dropping Petrified Field then I can tell you your game 1 winning percentage will go down.  Plenty of decks like Shop Aggro and Goyf+Waste.dec are showing up now and they can race you if they Waste Bazaar on turn 1.  It is very important to have as many dredgers as possible and have access to a Petrified Field or a second Bazaar frequently.
The second draw back is not being able to hardcast Cabal Therapy or Golgari Thug.
The main advantage is that board this could give you access to something like 4 Chain, 4 Emerald Charm, 4 Reverent Silence and 3 Trops.  This is a great Leyline defense, but you remain vulnerable to Jailer.  Still, that is an interesting idea.  If the 6 Leyline plan starts to show up this could make some sense.

[SonataOfTheCathedral]

I basically figured this logic with fetches to be sound on the basic fact that lands are useless game one, I'm not that interested in casting Cabal Therapy in g1 I'd imagine. Dryad Arbor isn't much better, but he turns sideways and is fodder to Therapy.
Every good Ichorid list in ever other format has at least 11 sources postboard to put up a defense. If you'd like to play four Tropical Islands g2 and 3 that is sound as well. It gives you ten sources to play Chain Of Vapor safely. and 12 for silence.

The other reason I like Chain Of Vapor and frown upon the ones not playing it is because, as Brassman told me, it's the catchall tempo when you just have no idea what your opponent is bringing in. I am actually cutting down the Leylines for lands in the maindeck. I go back and forth between Chalice and Leyline, but I think Leyline is only slightly better than Chalice v GAT, but Chalice is better against everything else. Unmask is a necessary evil, so that's going nowhere.

@Nataz, do you really feel the odds of dredging away the trops are likely before I break a fetch for one? Most likely I would draw a fetch and probably pop it after the first Bazaar activation, if pieces of hate come down, I think I'd take a fetch on the first turn for a Tropical Island.

[nataz]

well first bazaar activation can be anywhere from 4 - 24 cards dredged, so it may be more likely then you think. Add Serum powder to the mix (and the possibility of a large portion of your deck being rfg'd) and for me it starts getting risky.

[madmanmike25]

I am actually cutting down the Leylines for lands in the maindeck.

I'm still fairly new to Ichorid, but why would you ever want to reduce the number of Leylines in the maindeck?  I pretty much always like seeing that card when I test the deck.  While it nullifies many of your opponents cards(Welder, Crucible, Flash, Will, and Clamp to name just a few), it also PROTECTS your own Bridge from Below's from being RFG'ed.  Does anyone else agree to cutting back on Leylines in the main?  I probably don't have the experience to answer that yet, but I just find them too useful to lower the maindeck count.

Thanks,
Mike

[Soundwave]

In my experience recently when I took a traditional manaless ichorid list to a mox jet tournament running 4 leyline and 4 chalice main it won me more games than even I realized. For example, I was playing a deck called UNO or tropical storm first round and first game I dropped leyline with chalice and he tryed to storm around it but couldn't find a tutor but had yawg will with storm 14!!! Eventually he had to time walk then tinker for DSC. Leyline against combo may seem subpar to most but I highly suggest testing it and you will find it will pull you more wins on its own.

[Vegeta2711]

it also PROTECTS your own Bridge from Below'

To be fair here, this point is going to be irrelevant a huge portion of the time.

Leyline is good, but it usually depends on what maindeck disruption you want to keep in the MD. Therapy and Chalice of the Void are still v. solid, so Leyline isn't necessarily an auto-include, especially considering you already race all but the god hands of a large number of the decks Leyline is good against.

[DarkfnTemplar]

I personally think hat leyline should stay in main because it may be what you need to hold on to a game 1 win.
Most decks haver no answer to lichorid game 1. Combo can try to race and leyline def help you win that race. Aggro only answer will be a maindeck crypt or trying to block some of your guys in order to sac ur bridges. Of course you dont attack into them without the win, but if ur struggling, the leylines will let you bypass that.

[wiley]

I have a question about the maindeck darkblast.  Is it there on the basis that it's a dredger and you want two after board?
If yes then why not have the emerald charm md instead, since it can untap bazaar or randomly save you from a md leyline?

I just don't see dredging 3 and/or possibly killing a dude (that will largely be inconsequential) at the expense of one life and all bridges already in the grave to be worth it.  Who really runs MD jailers in vintage, and one DB isn't going to do anything against MD Sammy.

Also @ Meadbert, if you were to cut 2-4 cards from you 'SB' to make room for the FKZ kill what would they be? (FKZ kill being 6-8 cards 2 of which overlap w/ ancestor's stall)

[meadbert]

The maindeck Darkblast is mostly there because it dredgers for 3.  This is important against Wastelands which are very common in game 1.  With only 4 on color manasources, I am not sure it would be worth it to add Emerald Charm.

Occationally in game 1 you run into a Welder who can do some really annoying things to you. 

If I were to run the FKZ plan I would do this:

Maindeck:
-2 Ancestor's Chosen
-3 City of Brass (Note:  1 stays in the main)
-1 Darkblast
+2 Dread Return
+2 FKZ
+2 Cephalid Sage

Sideboard would be:
3 City of Brass (Note:  1 in the main)
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Emerald Charm

You could drop a Gemstone Mine for a Wax/Wane.  I do consider this worse, but if you are in a combo heavy and hate light meta then you really want the Zealot kill in game 1 so it could make sense.

Incidently Eternal Witness can be a nice alternative to Cephalid Sage in many cases.  Witness allows these lines of play.
1:  Get a Bazaar out and draw two more cards.  This make him a bad Cephalid Sage.
2:  If you cannot win this turn then get Chalice to stop combo from winning next turn.
3:  If you have a black Dredger in hand then get Unmask to disrupt Flash till next turn.
4:  Get Chain of Vapor to deal with a Platinum Angel or other threat.

[meadbert]

I just took this list to the First Cary Cup, and other than 1 point of damage from my own City of Brass I was untouched through the Swiss.

For a more complete mini report check here:
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=35238.msg491890#new

[Everrid1234]

Play Wraiths.
Darkblast is random.
MAybe play a kill in the SB which is token-independant. Maybe Sundering Titan. Yes, he is slower but if the Bridges don't come or are removed you have a solid kill. Akroma? Blazing Archon?

Draw Stuff:
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Serum Powder
4 Street Wraith


Dredgers:
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
1 Shambling Shell

Beaters:
4 Bridge from Below
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba

Free Disruption:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Unmask
4 Chalice of the Void

Flashback Stuff:
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
2 Flame-Kin Zealot

Mana:
3 Dryad Arbor

Sideboard:
4 Taiga
2 Ancient Grudge
4 Emerald Charm
2 Reverent Silence
3 Contagion

[meadbert]

Play Wraiths.
Darkblast is random.
MAybe play a kill in the SB which is token-independant. Maybe Sundering Titan. Yes, he is slower but if the Bridges don't come or are removed you have a solid kill. Akroma? Blazing Archon?

Draw Stuff:
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Serum Powder
4 Street Wraith


Dredgers:
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
1 Shambling Shell

Beaters:
4 Bridge from Below
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba

Free Disruption:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Unmask
4 Chalice of the Void

Flashback Stuff:
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
2 Flame-Kin Zealot

Mana:
3 Dryad Arbor

Sideboard:
4 Taiga
2 Ancient Grudge
4 Emerald Charm
2 Reverent Silence
3 Contagion

Regarding a Token independent win post board:  I run Golgari Grave-Troll.  I only Dread Returned once in my last tournament and I grabbed this guy and he was 17/17 for me which was big enough.  Titan has some risks.  Dragon can animate him when under Leyline.  Also he can be Welded out.  These concerns are not as significant as they once were so perhaps I should test him again.    Basically, when I found that I could Dread Return on turn 2 or 3 instead of turn 3 or 4 after the printing of Bridge from Below I decided that Titan was worse since he was destroying fewer Lands.  At that point I started running 2 Ancestor's Chosen instead of 1 Chosen and 1 Titan.  Titan is still very good and I cannot rule out going back to him at some point in the future.

Regarding Akroma:  Ichorids already have haste.  This means that if you are sacrificing Ichorids to Dread Return a hasty Akroma you are not gaining as much.  Basically the fact that Akroma has haste means little.

Regarding Blazing Archon:  If you are playing Aggro then Ancestor's Chosen is good enough.  After gaining 40 life Juggernaughts, DSC, Goblins and just about any other aggro heavy deck is going to be in no position to beat you down the next turn.  Ancestor's Chosen also makes it more difficult to win via Tendrils.  This is something that Blazing Archon cannot do.  Finally, if GAT should play a huge Yawg then GAT can easily bounce your creature.  Once Blazing Archon is bounced you are SOL as GAT swings for the win.  If Ancestor's Chosen is bounced you are still sitting on your extra 30-40 life which may buy you an additional turn.
Blazing Archon is great tech against Ichorid.  This is just one of many reasons why I run Chain of Vapor. 

Regarding Darkblast:  Darkblast is not random.  I see you run 1 Shambling Shell.  What are the pros and cons of Darkblast and Shambling Shell?  The differences are that Darkblast can remove Welder, Dark Confidant, Heart Sliver and Yixlid Jailer should he show up post board.  Meanwhile the only advantage of Shambling Shell is that he can be RFGed to Ichorid.  Since I rarely run out of Ichorid fodder I do not value this nearly as much.  Note that you can also Darkblast your own Narcomoebas to create more Bridge Tokens if you have multiple Bridges in the yard.

5 Mana sources and 6 Leyline removal spells are not enough.  Most opponents will mulligan to Leyline and you cannot afford to wait to Bazaar through a fifth of your deck before you cast your first removal spell.  On average you would find Leyline removal on turn 4.  By then your opponent will have a counter spell and you might not find your next removal spell till turn eight or nine.  By then you should have lost.

Street Wraith versus Petrfied Field:  Street Wraith gives you one extra draw on turn 1 while Petrified Field provides two extra draws on turn 3 and every turn after turn 3.  The relevant question here is how much better is that extra draw on turn 1?  If you are playing Goblins or Flash and you really want that first creature or two in play to block Lackey or block enough Slivers to survive then the draw on turn 1 matters.  Also if you want to combo out on turn 2 then Petrified Field does nothing, while Stree Wraith gives you that extra draw.  Since in the current meta it is far more likely that you will be facing heavy aggro + Wasteland, I find Petrified Field to be the vastly superior card.  Consider the top decks right now.  GAT and Empty Gush rarely win on turn 1 or 2.  I realize there are plenty of Fastbond, I win hands that occur on turns 1 and 2 but this is rare.  They are generally looking to win around turn 4 and possibly push through on turn 3.  In this case Petrified Field is the better card.
Against Stax or Shop Aggro Petrified Field is the better card.
Against Fish Petrified Field is the better card.
Against Deez Goyfs, SS and Deez Noughts Petrified Field is the better card.
Against Oath Petrified Field is better.
Basically the only two exceptions are Long and Flash and even Long is less likely to win turn 2 than it used to be.

I already explained above why I believe that Rainbow Lands and Chain of Vapor are better than Dryad Arbor and Reverent Silence.  For those of you who still believe Reverent Silence and Dryad Arbor are better than Rainbow Lands and Chain of Vapor I would be interested in hearing your thoughts and explanations on why.

[wiley]

If you opponet is playing Flash or Ichorid then you leave Leylines in and drop something else.  In the case of Ichorid Therapies can go.

Wouldn't it be better for the unmask to go instead?  With therapy you can get rid of their narcos and thugs, and also have a sac outlet for bridge removal/activation.  Unmask probably steals either Ichorid foor or a dead leyline for your hand just to see how much you can help them (since whiffing on therapy naming narco isn't as bad as unmasking a grave-troll w/o a leyline in play).

[meadbert]

That is good question.  I actually usually board out both, but you are correct that being able to sacrifice a creature to RFG all of your opponent's bridges is huge.  A big question for me is whether it is okay to drop to fewer than 10 Leyline removal spells and also whether Ancestor's Chosen should stay in.  Chosen is amazing in the mirror so this might be one matchup where you want to keep your Dread Return targets.  Also Grave-Troll is not that good since your opponent can chump block him all day.

I have been boarding like this for the mirror:
+15 entire sideboard
-4 Cabal Therapy
-4 Unmask
-4 Chalice of the Void
-2 Ancestor's Chosen
-1 Dread Return

I am not sure that boarding out Chosen and Dread Return is right.

[wiley]

Two questions on that.  Do you keep the fields in just to increase the chances of casting narco, thug, and stinkweed?  (I think this is a good idea to do.)
Also, would you dig to leyline or still keep a hand with bazaar and possibly removal spells/colored mana?

It migh be benificial to leave the sb darkblast out and keep a single Chosen.  Since it's not really rational to board in less than 10 removal spells for the leyline unless you want to set yourself up for a loss.

[meadbert]

Preboard if you are playing the mirror then you mulligan to Leyline and start hardcasting dudes.

Postboard you mulligan to Bazaar and then quickly remove your opponents Leyline.

Since the mirror can start out slow I love Fields because they give you those two extra draws on turn 3 and then two more on turn 4.  I keep them in for the speed they provide.

[PltnmNgl]

I'm planning on going to an un-powered, un-proxied tourney not too long from now. I'm definitely upping the Fields to 4 and getting rid of Chalice for Contagion or Sickening Shoal. Any other changes I need to make? (I have the BoB's, by the way)

[Everrid1234]

meadbert,

you points are convincing.
since you can block a huge critter with ancestor's chosen and then resurrect  it again it seems pretty nice here.
The lone Darkblast has no disavdantage comparing it to the Shell. Since you don't play Sutured Ghoul it is really ok.
Petrified Filed is of course a nice card and in the matches you mentioned there is a definite pro for the Fields. But Wraith gives you speed and also a carddraw when you need Leyline-solutions on game 2. I think they are both really good but you have to find the space.

I think you could maybe cut the Leylines since having them AND the Bazaar on the starting hand is a bit unrealistic. But the Mirror is going to be unwinnnable then.

I think the rainbow lands are a nice idea. But imo Ichorid has no real chance to win a tournament, just because it is so easily hateable and has not many protection for its solutions and just no real good draw engine.

Anyways, I like your build, all in all it seems better than my proposed one. Good luck.

[meadbert]

I'm planning on going to an un-powered, un-proxied tourney not too long from now. I'm definitely upping the Fields to 4 and getting rid of Chalice for Contagion or Sickening Shoal. Any other changes I need to make? (I have the BoB's, by the way)

I do not have much experience with such a meta, but your proposed changes sound good to me.  An extra Darkblast or two could help against Jailer if that might show up and is good at shooting Lackey if you run into goblins.  Also, the more dredgers the better if you expect a Wasteland heavy meta.

[PltnmNgl]

I'm planning on going to an un-powered, un-proxied tourney not too long from now. I'm definitely upping the Fields to 4 and getting rid of Chalice for Contagion or Sickening Shoal. Any other changes I need to make? (I have the BoB's, by the way)

I do not have much experience with such a meta, but your proposed changes sound good to me.  An extra Darkblast or two could help against Jailer if that might show up and is good at shooting Lackey if you run into goblins.  Also, the more dredgers the better if you expect a Wasteland heavy meta.

What if I were to use my Legacy build? What changes should I make to gear it towards Unpowered Vintage decks?

4x Ichorid
4x cabal therapy
4x breakthrough
4x golgari grave troll
3x deep analysis
4x lion's eye diamond
3x dread return
4x putrid imp
1x flame kin zealot
2x cephalid sage
4x bridge from bellow
4x stinkweed imp
4x narcomoeba
4x gemstone mine
4x city of brass
3x golgari thug
4x cephalid coliseum

side:
4x leyline of he void
2x ray of revelation
1x ancient grudge
4x chain of vapor
4x pithing needle

[meadbert]

Wispmare:
cost = 
Creature Elemental
Flying
When Wispmare comes into play, destroy target Enchantment.
Evoke 
1/3

So when I first saw Ingot Chewer and immediately searched for a guy that handled enchantments and could not find one.  Some how I missed Wispmare.
One of the remaining weakness that my list has is that it is vulnerable to Leyline of the Void + Chalice@1.  Wispmare dodges Chalice@1.  Also Wispmare is unaffected by Thorn of Amethyst.  A common Stax strategy is to open with Leyline and then start playing Spheres, Thorns and Wastelands fast enough that I never get enough mana to remove Leyline.  That strategy is weaker against Wispmare.

A second advantage is if Leyline is already removed and you have multiple Bridges in the yard then you essentially pay  to put two tokens into play.  That is pretty good.  Being able to RFG an opposing Ichorid player's Bridges is nice.

The final advantage is you can Dread Return this guy.  I did once lose a game to Moat at an SCG.  I actually considered Ingot Chewer for removing Needle and to Dread Return against Platinum Angel, but dropped the idea.  This is not that big but could matter.  I could see an Oath player playing Oath and giving me the token I need to Dread Return.  I then Dread Return Wispmare and remove Oath.  Seems good.

There is one major drawback.  This guy cannot be played at instant speed.  This means that you opponent could use draw spells eot rather than keeping drain mana up.  Still, since I will have plenty of insteed speed removal that would be risky.  I expect folks to keep their drain mana online.
The second problem is that it cannot take out Fastbond when GAT is comboing out (I do this fairly frequently), and it cannot stop Dragon from comboing out.

I think the advantages outway the drawbacks so I am modifying my recommended list.  I am dropping 2 Wax/Wanes and I am adding 2 Wispmares.
I may consider dropping an Emerald Charm to add Wispmare #3.  With GAT on the downswing and Metalworker decks on the upswing working around Chalice@1 and Thorn may be more important than removing Fastbond and untapping Bazaar.

[Methuselahn]

You didn't mention either Ancient Grudge or Encroach anywhere in your primer.  Do you have any comments on these cards?

[meadbert]

I do not think Ancient Grudge is good enough.  Basically Ray of Revelation would be better since it can remove Leyline, but I do not play that either.  If I wanted an answer from the graveyard, I would actually run Eternal Witness.  I have been close to doing this several times.  Witness has several advantages.
1:  Get a Bazaar and in this manner act as a mini Cephalid Sage.
2:  With black card in hand get Unmask to pull a threat out of opponent's hand.
3:  Get Chalice to protect from combo.
4:  Get Chain of Vapor to bounce annoying Platz, Bridge, Moat etc.

Individually those options are not as broken as other Dread Return targets but when you consider the flexibility Eternal Witness is very close to making the cut.  If I wanted a graveyard Solution to Platz I would probably run Eternal Witness and then just Dread Return him out and get Chain to bounce Platz.

A friend of mine still plays Suicide black a lot and he played Encroach for a while.  It does randomly win games against a ton of decks, but it is only good on the play.  He eventually stuffed it in his board and would use it everyone including against Stax and Gifts.  Grabbing Shop or Gifts only blue source was huge.  Petrified Field is the best solution there.

[Elfrago]

Today I placed second with meadbert list at a 28 person tournament in L'Aquila, Italy. I lost only in the first turn of swiss versus MUD and in the finals versus UW Fish. Both due to an early wasteland and some crappy dredging afterwards.
Unmask is sooooo good, and it won me at least two games. What I really missed was something to get rid of pithing needle. Maybe we should find slots in the SB for a couple of Shattering Sprees?

[meadbert]

I would add Ingot Chewer before Shattering Spree.  Ingot Chewer removes Chalice@1 for 1 mana.  It also removes Pithing Needle.  You can Dread Return it to remove Platinum Angel.  Finally if you have Bridge from Below in the yard then Ingot Chewer creates some tokens along with destroying an artifact.  Shattering Spree has the advantage of removing multiple artifacts if you get 2 Rainbow lands out, but Ingot's Chewer's advantages probably outweigh Shattering Sprees.

Both losses were to Wasteland?
Perhaps, there should be a 4th Petrified Field in the main.

[Elfrago]

I agree on Ingot chewer, it's definitely better than spree. I will probably remove 1 darkbalst and 1 emerald charm from the SB to try a couple of them. This is just a metagame call: here Jailer is almost non-existent, while needle is really common.


And ,I lost two game out of four in those matchups due to wasteland. Another one to needle and the last thanks to a horrible sideboarding mistake of mine. Sometimes a single activation of baazar is enough, and you proceed winning with EOT discarding and slow-dredging in draw step (for example, it worked in the quarterfinals aganist 5c-Stax). Sometimes it's just TOO slow and luck dependandant, especially if you had to mulligan to find baazar. A fourth field could be useful, but I really dont know what to cut.

This also looks like a metagame call: yesterday MUD and Stax were everywhere and the fourth Field could have been helpful (shame on me for not realizing this before!), but probably three it's fine on the "standard" list.