TurboGush

[meadbert]

Ryan raises a good point.  This means opponent's can Gush once they see Titan hit.  That is scary. 
I would not drop DSC from the board.  Against certain decks like Stax and Ichorid Titan is just terrible.  Stax can potentially wreck you by Weldering Titan in and out while Ichorid can chump block all day long.  The question is, should Titan be added to the sideboard in addition to DSC.  Right now I am leaning against it.  My reasoning is that Control is already one of TurboGushes better matchups.  I definitely see how Titan can be good against Control though.

I have tried dropping Intuitions and Scrolls.  I can say pretty conclusively that dropping Intuition is wrong.  It is so good in this deck.  Finding Crucible against Stax is huge.  Finding all your combo lands is huge.  Finding AKs is huge.  Finding Fastbond is huge.  Finding Ray of Revelation is huge against Oath.  Intuition never just sits in my hand.  It is a huge bomb every time I cast it.  Intuition, more than any other card is the engine behind this deck.  Scroll is less conculsive.  In the early game your first Scroll gets Ancestral and in the very late game it helps you comb out.  In the middle a second Scroll is pretty weak.  I would rather go Scroll->Ancestral and then follow up with Thirst.  Dropping to three Scroll might be right since it halves the chance of drawing multiples.  I will probably continue to run four.

I have been testing and I definitely like the idea of attacking Ichorid by boarding out all counter magic and bringing in 8ish hate cards and trying to win that way.  I tried beating Ichorid without Tinker->DSC and I lost to often to turn Unmask taking Fastbond with Leyline out and other nonsense to justify not bringing in DSC.  This means AKs come out since they are already weak against Leyline.

Out:
4 Force
4 Drain
4 AK

In:
9 Hate
3 Tinker, DSC, Mystical

There are two more developments.  First, Mana Ichorid has reared its ugly head and that deck dodges Needle to a certain degree, but is more vulnerable to countermagic.  I am not sure what the optimal strategy there is yet, but I am guessing we want to keep our Forces in.  I am not sure what to do with Needles.

The second is that Flash is a problem with only 4 Leyline of the Void.  In a nutshell there were reasons that I ran 7 Leylines before.

A token Ray of Revelation is really good.  After that addionals are less useful.
Balance has continued to be a bomb.

I am pretty sold on at least these guys in the board:
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Pithing Needle
1 Tinker
1 DSC
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Balance
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Hurkle's Recall

This leaves two more slots.  Each should be good against Manaless Ichorid.  Ideally I also want some Flash and Mana Ichorid help.
Leyline of Singularity again drifts to the top of the list.  Needle number 4 is still a good option.  Echoing Truth is strong against both versions of Ichorid and Flash so that is an option.  Swords is interesting in that it could help against Oath in theory.  In general, Oath can just Oath again so really Swords buys you a turn same as Echoing Truth would.
Ray of Revelation is solid and is even slightly helpful against Ichorid since you can remove their Leyline wiith it.  Still, I do not think there is room for a second.  The final guy I am considering is Spell Snare.  It counters both Oath and Flash which is pretty huge.  Against, the problem is it does nothing against Ichorid.  Tyrant Oath is a really good deck right now, but it is a deck I can fight reasonably well with my main deck.  I am not claiming it is a good matchup.  I am just pointing out that none of my maindeck cards are bad in that matchup.  There are no cards that I am eager to board out, so trying to find a spot for a second Ray of Revelation was hard and finding a spot for Spell Snare is just about impossible.  The strategy I am leaning towards for Oath is -4 Gush, +3 Mystical->Tinker->DSC, +1 Ray of Revelation.  Playing your first Intuition for (2xAK + Ray) is actually a pretty strong plan since you either get AK for 2 + Ray or 2xEnchantment Removal with AK for 3 and 4 floating around in your deck to be Scrolled up.


Right now I think I am going to stick with Needle#4.  It is really good against Manaless Ichorid and still pretty strong against Mana Ichorid.  Also Welder is a real pain since it can hurt both win conditions so Extra Needles help there.

For the final spot I am probably going to go back to Leyline of Singularity.  It is very strong against both Ichorids and Flash.

I have still not settled on a boarding strategy for Flash.  I am leaning towards -4 AK, -4 Gush, +3 Mystical->Tinker->DSC, +5 Leyline.

[wiley]

in case you haven't seen it yet, this deck placed 5th at the latest myriad tourney piloted by Chad Behre

heres the link
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=35453.msg0#new

[meadbert]

Wow!  Great job by Chad!  Hopefully he can comment on how the black cards worked out for him?  How was Reclaim?  Was it used on Tinker or Ancestral much?

[Furious George]

Hey -- this is Chad.  Here's the list I played for reference:

3x Island
3x Polluted Delta
3x Flooded Strand
2x Underground Sea
2x Tropical Island
1x Tundra
1x Library of Alexandria
1x Strip Mine
1x Nomad Stadium
1x Cephalid Coliseum
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Jet
1x Black Lotus
4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
1x Time Walk
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Echoing Truth
1x Tinker
1x Mystical Tutor
3x Merchant Scroll
2x Intuition
1x Gifts Ungiven
4x Gush
4x Mana Drain
1x Fastbond
1x Yawgmoth's Will
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Darksteel Colossus
3x Crucible of Worlds
1x Reclaim
1x Regrowth

Sideboard
3x Ray of Revelation
4x Leyline of the Void
4x Extirpate
1x Balance
2x Simic Sky Swallower
1x Hurkyl's Recall


About a week before the tournament I started playing a GWU version from earlier in this thread.  I admit that I only played about a dozen games with the deck, but  I found that I didn't like AKs (even though they work so well with intuition, you have to invest a lot of card slots and a lot of mana to get some AKs in the yard).  Also, I really liked having the alternative win condition in the main deck.  In some matchups, it's much simpler (and faster) to tinker for DSC.  I found that it was sometimes very tempo consuming to get the main combo together.  It generally meant resolving at least two intuitions.  One to get the lands, and another to get fastbond, and some ways to get fastbond back from the yard -- and this assumes you have crucible in hand.  Drain mana speeds it up a lot, but it still takes several turns to set it up.

Then on the morning of the tournament -- I arbitrarily decided to add black to the deck with out testing it.  I won a couple of my games with Tinker for DSC, and a couple of games by resolving a Yawg will.  Yes, it's true that you can't combo out the turn you play Will, but it doesn't generally matter.  It has two primary purposes: gaining massive card advantage against a control deck, or if Fastbond and/or Crucible are in your GY, then you can Will to get them back (like a super Regrowth).

How was Reclaim?  I'd say it was an adequate replacement for Argivian Find.  I would have preferred to run an Argivian Find, but it was just too unrealistic with only a couple white sources.  Obviously the nice thing about Reclaim over Find is that you can do stuff like Intuition for 'Will, Regrowth, Reclaim" and know for certain that you get Will next turn.

The mana base was treacherous at best.  I had to constantly plan, and do a lot of guesswork.  I would never fetch for Tundra unless I knew that I'd be comboing out next turn.  If I had the black tutors or will -- I'd go with Underground, otherwise I was just go for Trop -- because you know that you'll need it for Fastbond eventually.  It was stressful to say the least.  All in all, I never really got mana screwed.  I only recall one mulligan that I took because my spells and dual lands didn't match.

Oh, btw -- I added the Simic Sky Swallowers in there mainly because I thought it would be funny to play one against an Oath player that "Show and Tell"ed a Tyrant into play.  At 7 they should be playable with drain mana.  I never played against Oath though.  I suspect that they aren't great, but I knew that there would be a LOT of Tyrant Oath players at Myriad, (and there were).

Other comments:
1)Boarding in Ray of Revelation was hit or miss.  Sometimes I'd suspect that my opponent would have Leyline of Void in game two, so I'd bring in one Ray, only to have it dead in my hand the whole game.

2)There was another time when I didn't board in the Hurkyl's Recall, and I boarded out the ET, only to lose to a very unexpected Tormod's Crypt.

3) 4xLeyline + 4xEtirpate helped remarkably against Ichorid.  I think the Extirpates would help in a lot of other matches as well.

4) Balance is a very strong card -- but it was hard for me to cast, having to rely on white.


I've thought about the deck much since then -- I think I might try something like this next time:
3x Island
3x Polluted Delta
3x Flooded Strand
2x Underground Sea
2x Tropical Island
1x Library of Alexandria
1x Strip Mine
1x Cephalid Coliseum

1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Jet
1x Sol Ring
1x Black Lotus

4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
1x Time Walk
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Echoing Truth
1x Tinker
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Gifts Ungiven
2x Merchant Scroll
3x Gush
2x Thirst for Knowledge
4x Mana Drain
1x Fastbond
1x Yawgmoth's Will
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Darksteel Colossus
3x Crucible of Worlds
2x Zuran Orb
1x Reclaim
1x Regrowth

Sideboard
4x Leyline of the Void
4x Extirpate
2x Simic Sky Swallower
1x Show and Tell
1x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Chain of Vapor
1x Echoing Truth
1x Glacial Chasm


I feel that if you want to play black in this deck, you should probably just drop white all together.  Once you do that, it seems more sensible to drop Intuition -- there's no room for AKs in this deck, you have more direct tutors.

With out white, you need something like Zuran Orb to gain infinite life.

I added in a couple of Thirst for Knowledge (you can drop any extra Orb or Crucible you have) -- because early in the game, if you haven't managed to get a Fastbond down yet, Gush is pretty terrible. 

I dropped the Scrolls down to 2.  As someone mentioned earlier in the thread, getting one scroll early, means going for Ancestral, getting two early means...well you'd rather just have a draw spell in hand already.  In addition the black tutors are replacing much of your blue tutors.

[Mr. Sligh]

I see this list on a top8 on morphling.de and I spend a quarter of hour to try to find the winning condition...
This deck seems innovative and it could some chances to began competitive if you add some more consistant way to win the game... I'm really scared about playing only 1 cards (the threshold-white land I don't remember the name) that could bring me to victory... I think you need a plan B...
Tormod's Crypt and Pithing could be played in game 1 (e.g. Bomberman.deck against which you probably does not play more times), but in my opinion the real problem is leyline of the void... You suck if some ichorid.deck drop turn 0 Leyline...
Otherwise I noticed that you only win gaining life (or decking opponent with coliseum) what would you do against decking yourself??? How could you win against decks that use Brainfreeze as alternative winning condition (some GAT version inspired to Rich Shay one)???

Mr. Sligh

[meadbert]

The deck as I originally designed it has two huge weaknesses.

First, graveyard hate is a problem.  It not only shuts off your ONLY win condition in the mainboard, but it also shuts off your engine in Intuition + AK.
Post board I bring in Tinker->DSC, but there are still problems there.  I only run 6 low cc artifacts which means frequently there is no artifact to Tinker.  Needles do come in a lot and that helps for sure, but against decks where I do not want Needle, finding artifacts can be a problem.  Adding Zuran Orb gives you another artifact to Tinker out which is nice.

Second, Shop Aggro has been a huge problem for me.  Resistor's are not threatening against Stax, because Crucible answers Smokestack and against Stax I usually have plenty of time to stabilize the manabase and win.
Against Shop Aggro Spheres are great for slowing you down while Dudes bash face.  Crucible does not answer Juggernaught the way it answers Smokestack.

Adding Thirsts and Zuran Orbs really solidifies your strategy both in game 1 and post board when you are facing graveyard hate.

I realize your main deck should do better against Shop Aggro than my main deck did, but I am still concerned about Shop Aggro post board.  I do not see 1 Hurkles Recall being enough.

Perhaps the Hurkles count should be higher.  Also, perhaps Drop of Honey could be effective.  If they drop two Dudes then being able to remove two guys with a 1cc spell is nice.  The problem is you have to wait a few turns for the effect.

Tormod's Crypt is getting better right now.  It is better against the new Flash Kill since it limits your opponent to a 6/6 and a 1/1.  Note that Drain is way worse since they can win at instant speed.  Tormod's Crypt is nice since it is free and does not involve tapping mana.
Crypt is also much better against Mana Ichorid than against Manaless Ichorid since without Bazaar it is harder to reload and without Chalice and Unmask it is easier to get Crypt into play.
With Thirsts and Tinker, Crypt is pretty solid so that could make sense.

Would Seal of Primordium or Deglamer make sense?  They answer Oath and Shop Aggro's creatures.  I do not like fetching Trops against Stax or Shop Aggro though.

I have even considered Ensaring Bridge for Shop Aggro since some Mud versions run no removal.  Their only answer is Memory Jar.

Finally, Spell Snare might be decent since it counters Oath, Flash and Resistors.

[Furious George]

Stifle and Spell Snare are strong sideboard options against Flash and Oath.  Stifle can be used to counter the Brainfreeze win against Oath, or to stop Flash.  If you run black, Duress and Thoughtseize would be strong cards to bring in against control and combo.  Then again, spell snare would help a lot in the early game against Spheres and Thorns.

Against Aggro workshop -- your plan is too tinker for DSC.  They don't have any answer for it.  Hopefully you can do it before you lose control of the board.  If they manage to get a Magus down and you have no blue -- you're in trouble.  You'll have an uphill battle against spheres -- so you'll want to counter those if you can.

Against traditional Stax decks -- I agree that your goal should be to get down a Crucible as fast as you can.  I don't think the matchup is bad.  If they chalice on 1, you can still answer it with ET.  If they chalice on 1 and 2, you can still always tinker for DSC to win.

[meadbert]

So I have spent all day and all night wondering about how to build a board.  I have tested several ideas, none of which were working.

Finally I think I have hit a new idea that addresses the current meta.

The problem matchups are Ichorid, Flash and now Shop Aggro.
For Ichorid and Flash Leyline of the Void is good.
What is good against Shop Aggro and Ichorid or Flash?  Pithing Needle used to take that spot, but many Mud decks don't run Welder and Needle is weak. On top of that mana Ichorid doges Needle better than Manaless Ichorid.  I tried Tormod's Crypt for Flash and Ichorid, but that gets unmasked and loses to Chalice.  Resistor is a huge problem but how do you answer it?  Annul and Spell Snare were not doing the trick.  They had the same problem as Oxidize and drop of honey.  Your opponent will look to drop Chalice@1 on you as fast as possible.  Your board cannot play into that.  I got up to 4 Hurkles with Shop Aggro, but I was still struggling despite devoting 4 cards to 1 matchup.  Although that did largely fix Shop Aggro I now found no way to have a shot against Ichorid and Flash.
Trygon Predator did not work out against anyway.  It is hard to resolve against Tanglewire, Wasteland and Spheres.  It does dodge Thorn and Predator is a beating if it hits.  Against Oath it was frequently a turn to slow.
Really I was just very stuck.

Finally it hit me.  Wasteland is the answer.
Obviously Wasteland is golden against Ichorid.  The relevant game against Manaless Ichorid is game 3 when you are on the draw against them.  Needle is somewhat weak here since they definitely get a first Bazaar, they can Chain it and it can be Unmasked.  Wasteland is much better!  It cannot be Unmasked and it cannot be Chained.  It still allows Bazaar the same 1 activation.

Against Shop Aggro Wasteland is also solid.  This is especially true since they do not run Crucilbe or run very few.  Even if they do run Crucible they may board it out and they are unlikely to open with it.
Consider:  Shop aggro opens with Shop->Crucible.  I am doing the dance!  There are a ton of threatening cards including Juggernaught, Metalworker, Trinisphere, Smokestack, Resistor, Thorn and Chalice@1.  Crucible I just don't care about.
Consider:  Shop Aggro opens with Shop->Resistor.  I Wasteland Shop!  Now where do things stand?  I have 1cc and free spells.  I am also running 26 mana sources with 4 Wastelands added.  I should be able to play out from under Sphere much better than Shop aggro without Shop.

Wasteland also makes Hurkles better since it is harder to replay threats.  Shop, Mox, Juggs is threatening even with Wasteland.  Hurkles is definitely the answer of choice in conjunction with Wasteland. 

I already mentioned this but going from 22 to 26 mana sources is huge.  Also from a stability against Spheres perspective Wasteland can function as a fetchland/basic.  Shop Aggro will be hesitant to Waste your untapped Wasteland since you can waste something else in response and it is a 2 for 1 trade.
If Shop Aggro uses Wasteland to cast Permanents then you are free to tap your own Wasteland for mana to cost Intuition or which ever instant spell you want.


Oh, I almost forgot to mention.  We do run 3 Crucible so Wasteland has nice synergy with the deck to begin with.

I already tested this new board as much as I could:
4 Wasteland
1 Darksteel Colossus
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Tinker
2 Hurkles Recall
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Balance
1 Ray of Revelation

The Shop Aggro plan is vastly improved.  The full round is not great since game 1 is a terrible matchup (for my main deck) but post board things get much better.
Manaless Ichorid is solid.
Tyrant Oath remains solid.
Flash has issues still.  I am somewhat tempted to add a Tormod's Crypt or a Stifle/Trickbind.  The thing about Flash is none of the main deck cards are terrible so the incremental advantage of adding Flash hate is small.
Also, Mana Ichorid is a problem in that it dodges Wasteland nicely.  It is all to happy to go Bazaar turn 1 and then manaland, Breakthrough turn 2 and destroy me.

A maindeck like what Chad is running could improve things.  First, game 1 against Shop aggro gets much better with Tinker.  Second, the board has 3 more spots to play with since Mystical, Tinker and DSC are not clogging up space.  Adding 3 Crypts to shore up Flash/Mana Ichorid would do wonders!  That might be the right direction for this deck.

I thought losing Needle would be problematic against Welder, but it did not work out that way.  First, Welder is frequently shut out by Chalice@1.
Second, Welder does not answer Crucible unless I put Lotus in my yard.  Welder does answer Tinker, but when will I be forced to Tinker?  Usually when Leyline of the Void hits.  In that case Welder cannot weld out DSC so I am in the clear.

[meadbert]

I see this list on a top8 on morphling.de and I spend a quarter of hour to try to find the winning condition...

http://www.morphling.de/printview.php?c=764&d=7

I just saw that there are two versions of TurboGush on Morphling.  The above list ran my maindeck -1 Island, +1 Library.  His board is solid.
The other guy ran Claws of Gix, which can act as a Zuran Orb or even Oath hate.  Interesting idea.

[islanderboi10]

If you cut white, then doesn't Chalice for zero hose Zuran Orb?

Why not cut Library for Glacial Chasm?

It is soo good against Shop Aggro anyways.
and with Crucible it is insane against any other aggro decks.

EDIT:

Here is a list I am considering...

3x Island
3x Polluted Delta
3x Flooded Strand
2x Underground Sea
2x Tropical Island
1x Glacial Chasm
1x Strip Mine
1x Cephalid Coliseum

1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Jet
1x Sol Ring
1x Black Lotus

4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
1x Time Walk
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Echoing Truth
1x Tinker
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Gifts Ungiven
2x Merchant Scroll
3x Gush
2x Thirst for Knowledge
4x Mana Drain
1x Fastbond
1x Yawgmoth's Will
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Darksteel Colossus
3x Crucible of Worlds
2x Zuran Orb
1x Reclaim
1x Regrowth

Sideboard
4x Leyline of the Void
3x Extirpate
2x Simic Sky Swallower
4x Duress/Thoughsieze
1x Echoing Truth
1x Glacial Chasm


Don't know what to change.  Pretty much it is the same list as above, just -1 Library and +1 Chasm.
I have a lot of aggro in my meta.
I think maybe Duress could be good. Duress + Extripate is one of my favorite little combos that can be really good against control and combo.

Thoughts?

I'm thinking of going -2 Merchant Scroll +1 Gush +1 Thirst

[wiley]

Concerning the Tyrant Oath matchup: (note: I am currently testing the UGB version)

Wouldn't 1-2 gaea's blessing in the side work to stop the brain freeze combo?  Since decking us is typically how they are going to win, an agressive strategy with wastelands, blessing and extirpate should allow us to combo off w/ the orb.  I ask here because I don't have any quality testing partners that play tyrant oath right now, and I don't trust myself two fisting it.

Blessing would also give a chance to shuffle back in tinker targets/will/tutors and be a bad draw spell.

Oh, and the Ichorid matchup is greatly improved in the UGB version with a side of leyline and extirpate.  pating bridges slows them down to our speed, and ichorid can do nothing against inf life.

My hardest matchups with my current list are shop aggro (mainly because of spheres, but I think the wastes will help in that regard), flash (sliver version, I can handle the lark version with consistancy), and super fish decks like bomberman and deeznaughts that run as much or more counter magic (I think this is because I try to go nuts too soon, not because of the deck).

The list I will be trying out now is:
// Lands
        4 Island
        1 Cephalid Coliseum
        3 Flooded Strand
        3 Polluted Delta
        1 Strip Mine
        2 Tropical Island
        2 Underground Sea
        1 Wasteland
// Creatures
        1 Darksteel Colossus
// Enchantments
        1 Fastbond
// Spells
        1 Ancestral Recall
        4 Brainstorm
        1 Echoing Truth
        4 Force of Will
        1 Gifts Ungiven
        3 Gush
        1 Mystical Tutor
        1 Reclaim
        2 Thirst for Knowledge
        1 Vampiric Tutor
        4 Mana Drain
        1 Demonic Tutor
        2 Merchant Scroll
        1 Regrowth
        1 Time Walk
        1 Tinker
        1 Yawgmoth's Will
// Artifacts
        3 Crucible of Worlds
        2 Zuran Orb
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Sapphire
// Sideboard
SB:  4 Extirpate
SB:  2 Gaea's Blessing
SB:  2 Hurkyl's Recall
SB:  4 Leyline of the Void
SB:  3 Wasteland

[Furious George]

I was thinking about different ways to deal with the Brain Freeze.  Krosan Reclamation is another trick that could be used. The huge advantage of Krosan over Gaea's Blessing is that you can try to set yourself up to win next turn by shuffling in Yawg Will.  The obvious downside is that you could get targeted with a draw spell and lose before you get a chance to win.

Don't forget that if you have DSC in the deck -- it will get shuffled back into the library repeatedly as it gets milled away -- so you'll get to draw that when it ends up in your deck next turn.

>>to all the people who put Simic Sky Swallower in the SB (myself included).  Simic was more of a goof.
It makes more sense to run Duresses\Thoughtseizes which are useful generally great cards against control and combo, as opposed to Simic which you are unlikely to get into play, and even if you do, you aren't guaranteed a win.

BTW -- There's hasn't been much discussion about LoA.  I know that the mana base is already very tight, but Library is an exceptional card in control mirrors.  It can single handedly win games -- an uncounterable, reusable, free draw each turn.  At worse it's a corlorless mana source (unlike Bazaar for instance).  If you live in a place where you don't play against any control decks at all, I could see not running it, otherwise try it out at least.

>>Chalice on 0
Yeah, if they drop Chalice on 0 -- and you are relying on the Zuran orb you can't go off.  But you can't go off if they cast Chalice on 1 either, because that stops Fastbond.  In fact, Chalice on one is a lot worse than Chalice on 0 because with it on 1, you also lose Brainstorm, Ancestral, 1 cost tutors...which will impede your ability to get ET.  You should have a couple of answers to Chalice between your MD and SB -- Echoing Truth, Hurkyl's, Oxidize, Engineered Explosives, Naturalize -- the trick is to figuring out which ones will help you the most all around.

>>Claws of Gix
It doesn't give you infiite life like Zuran Orb does -- because you only get 1 life, and you have to pay one with Fastbond.  While it may help you against some Oath builds -- it won't help if they Show and Tell a Tyrant into play, which is rapidly gaining popularity.

[meadbert]

Good point about Claws of Gix.  I guess that is not tech after all.

I agree with Chad about Zuran Orb.  I hated it in Turboland back when Uba Stax was king because between Chalice, Rod, Mox Monkey and Welder, Zuran Orb was easy to hate out and could be a liability.
In general I would prefer that my opponent drops Chalice@0 rather than Chalice@1.
If we have Fastbond and Crucible out, but no Zuran Orb then we still have a ton of mana to do what we want with and with Strip Mine we can Strip lock an opponent, while Crucilbe + Zuran Orb is not a great combo.

I think answering Brain Freeze is the wrong way to address the Oath matchup.  Tyrant is fully capable of beating for the win.  Bounce is generally weak against TurboLand, but by repeatedly bouncing our lands and Crucible, Tyrant can hold us at bay and just keep swinging for 5.  Answering Brain Freeze does not mean that we have answered Oath.

If white is dropped making Ray of Revelation a poor choice, then I expect Deglamor, Naturalize and Seal of Primordium to become solid answers to Oath since they also address Shop Aggro.

[wiley]

With the advent of a new popular deck that can run infinite damage (revilark flash, even though sliver flash still killed with poison the deck has had a jump in popularity) do you find this deck still viable?  For me the sb leyline and extirpate haven't really been enough to stop them consistantly and I don't think that the main can make enough room for 4 duress, and even if it does then the mana has to be reworked slightly to have consistant black up turn 1.

I've also tried switching out dsc in the main with titan but first turn tinker doesn't come up very often, and when it does it usually gets countered by pact or force.

Any ideas on how to improve the disruption speed/consistancy of this deck or are we relegated to the sideline until flash falls off the charts?

[feyd]

The metagame is going through a period of flux right now where flash is becoming very popular.  In order to defeat flash people are going to start running more waste effects and stifle will probably make a big comeback.  That means combo, flash included, is going to take a hit in the balls again.  Combo already took a hit when stax and workshop sphere decks made a big comeback.   This deck is best suited for a metagame full of deeznoughts and fish.  It shrugs off artifact hate pretty well and enchantment hate to boot.  The combo is solid so I think that although this may not be the best time for this deck I certainly believe it could do well when the meta calms down again.

[meadbert]

With the advent of a new popular deck that can run infinite damage (revilark flash, even though sliver flash still killed with poison the deck has had a jump in popularity) do you find this deck still viable?  For me the sb leyline and extirpate haven't really been enough to stop them consistantly and I don't think that the main can make enough room for 4 duress, and even if it does then the mana has to be reworked slightly to have consistant black up turn 1.

I've also tried switching out dsc in the main with titan but first turn tinker doesn't come up very often, and when it does it usually gets countered by pact or force.

Any ideas on how to improve the disruption speed/consistancy of this deck or are we relegated to the sideline until flash falls off the charts?

The Flash matchup is pretty bad, since it is a faster Combo.  I have found the best sideboarding strategy has been to board in 4 Leylines and out the Mana Drains.  Drains are really no good in the Flash matchup because they can win at instant speed.  This means we must either give them a chance to win every time we cast a draw spell or we must sit on Drain Mana forever.  We cannot afford to just sit on Drain Mana at all times.  This would entail waiting till we get 4 lands in play to Gush waiting till we have 4 mana out to cast AK and Scroll.  By boarding out 4 Drains and in 4 Leylines the speed is maintained so you are still looking at winning on turn 3 or 4.  Also you have 8 ways to stop the combo.  Flash protection suite is meant for that, protection.  Pact of Negation is less useful if Flash is trying to stop you from comboing out.  If the game is delayed much at all then your superior draw engine starts to really matter.

Stifle is actually an interesting sideboard card that I had not considered recently.  There is also Spell Snare which can hit Resistors/Thorns against Shop Agro, Oath, and Dryads against GAT.  Stifle is actually better since your opponent must reload both a Flash and a Hulk.

Is Wasteland effective against Flash?  I have not even bothered testing it.  I would think that it is not effective since Flash only needs 2 Mana to win, but if you all think is has potentially I will put in some time to test it.

The new instant speed Flash win really makes that deck a lot better.  I used to feel okay about game 1.  It was not great but with Forces, Scrolls and Drains and a strong draw engine I had a fighting chance.  Now that Drain has essentially been neutralized the matchup is much worse.  Incidently, I think it is best to just use your Drains on Ponder and whatever else they give you a chance to Drain they will be unlikely to walk Flash into a Drain.

[wiley]

I have been trying to bring this deck up to speed with the current format and after many unpromising leads I had an idea today at work that peaked my interest.  Would it be possible to run mystic remora in TurboGush?  This card has a large amount of power, it puts huge pressure on the opponent often causing even experienced players to make minor play mistakes as well as being an excellent draw engine throughout the game including the first couple of turns.

With this thought in mind I tried to build this deck in a Uwg fashion from scratch using the primer on the first post as a guide.  I basically added in everything that I could want into the deck (draw, the combo, protection and mana base) then started cutting cards.  This is the initial brainstorm from that:

// Lands
        4 Island
        1 Cephalid Coliseum
        3 Flooded Strand
        2 Polluted Delta
        1 Strip Mine
        2 Tropical Island
        2 Tundra
        1 Tolarian Academy
// Creatures
        1 Darksteel Colossus
// Enchantments
        1 Fastbond
        3 Mystic Remora
// Spells
        1 Ancestral Recall
        2 Argivian Find
        4 Brainstorm
        4 Force of Will
        4 Gush
        1 Hurkyl's Recall
        2 Intuition
        1 Mystical Tutor
        2 Stifle
        4 Mana Drain
        2 Merchant Scroll
        1 Time Walk
        1 Tinker
// Artifacts
        3 Crucible of Worlds
        1 Mana Crypt
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Sapphire
// Sideboard
SB:  1 Echoing Truth
SB:  1 Hurkyl's Recall
SB:  2 Island Sanctuary
SB:  4 Leyline of the Void
SB:  1 Platinum Angel
SB:  2 Stifle
SB:  4 Threads of Disloyalty


The AK are certianlty more explosive than remora, however I believe the speed and pressure aspects of remora simply deserve the deck space right now.  This build has added stifle to the main which adds to game 1 chance against Ichorid and Flash, as wells as servin as random mana denial against other decks and protecting your combo from welder tricks.  I run slightly more mana sources because I feel that the abundance of shops and the increased bar for explosive turns currently demand it, plus it helps keep the remora around.  You also have tinker -> colossus in the main for any deck that runs maindeck grave hate.

The side is kind of up in the air, GAT isn't near as prevelant as when the thread was created, but shows good promise of coming back strong so I included threads.  Platinum Angel, Island sanctuary, echoing truth, Leyline of the void and stifle all fight ichorid.  Leyline, echoing truth and stifle all fight flash, though it is still probably an even to unfavorable match up.  Shops hate drain decks, this one is not really different, hurkyl's recall main and side go a long way here against mud and stax.  Island sanctuary stop haterator aggro as well as deeznaughts and GAT creatures.  As I have said before it doesn't matter if they rip into bounce, your still protected till next turn.

As I said this is an initial brainstorm so it certianly isn't perfect and I would like feedback on why/why not the idea would work.  I feel this certianly could be a strong enough addition to the deck to warrent the 1 month necro from the second page.

[meadbert]

Very interesting list.  It turns out that Stifle will also be needed to defend from Faerie Macabre.  My original list just rolls over and dies to any deck that ran Faerie Macabre in the main.

Mystic Remora may very well be an improvement.
Are you able to find Fastbond reliably enough with just Mystical, 2 Intuitions and 2 Scrolls?

I will have to test your list some time soon.

[meadbert]

So I actually played TurboGush day two in Richmond.  I was all set to run Uba Stax day two, but then I won a Time Walk on day 1 and really wanted to play with it day two and there is no Walk in Uba Stax.

I ran the exact maindeck that I have been running for 8 months.  It is at the top of this thread.

My board was:
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Pithing Needle
1 Tinker
1 Mystical Tutor
1 DSC
1 Gaea's Blessing (Painter Tech, decent against Ichorid)
1 Balance
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Hurkles Recall
1 Trickbind (Faerie Macabre) - This was bad and I never used it.

I did not top 8 day two but I started 3-0 and finished 11th so my results were decent.  I am not ready to say this deck is a metagame contender though because some of my wins were to lucksackery.

Here a brief report:

Round 1:  My opponent is running Root Maze/Pyrostatic Pillar/Ank of Mishra.dec with 4 Seal of Primordium in the board.  I should lose this badly.  Game 1 is barely worth playing.  Post board I must Tinker.
My opponent is late and thus I win game 1.  Huge!  Still, we must play game 2 pre board so that should be an autoloss.  My opponent opens with turn 1 Null Rod which is good.
I open with Trop, Fastbond, Island, Gush, Gush, Scroll->Gush, Crucible, Scroll->Intuition win.  That was a 1 turn round.  Turn 1 wins happend, but it is pretty rare to win on turn 1 through Null Rod!
My opponent and I play test for the next 30 minutes and he smokes me in every game.  This is a horrendous matchup and there is no way I should have survived it!

Round 2:  I am playing Klep who has Belcher.  Game 1 I win because I have the Force for his turn 1/2 Belcher and then I combo out quickly.
In game 2 I try to mize a hand with Force and a Mox but no blue source.  I draw no blue source over six turns and lose to Spirt Guide beats.
In game 3  Klep goes to cast Belcher with Lotus in play and untapped.  I am holding Force, Gush and like 3 land.  I foolishly decide to Gush.  Incidently, I definitely would have Gushed if Lotus were not on the table since I could have hit Needle as an out.  I do hit Needle, but no blue card thus Belcher resolves.  Klep then proceeds to Belch for 1.  Terrible luck!  Klep follows up with a sizeable Empty the Warrens which I neuter with Balance.  A turn or two later Klep Consults for one of his 2 remaining Warrens but hits both in the top 6 cards.  I swear I have never seen such bad luck.  At this point I am 2-0 but probably deserve to be 0-2.

Round 3:  I play Jeremy Seroogy who is playing Painter.dec with Rebs.  REBs are fine since they slow the game down and I eventually will outdraw anyway.  I comboed out on turn 4 in game 1 and then in game 2 Seroogy dropped Tormod's quickly.  I played control and eventually Drained a Leyline of the Void which led to a huge turn where I Tinker for DSC and was able to protect it for the win.

Round 4:  I play Brian Demars who is playing a controlling creation of his own design with tops, Warrens, Bobs and Drains.  We are playing for top 8 here.  He crushes me both games.  In game 1 I almost came back from oblivion twice.  First, I was able to Balance with Bob out and Brian ahead by 4 in card advantage.  He countered but I Intuitioned for Drains and Drained back.  Later he ripped Yawg and then went to combo out but I Echoing Truth Fastbond at the right time.  It did not matter as the Ancestral and Gush he played were plenty to win.
In game 2 I was behind the whole way after mulliganing and never went anywhere.  I could have survied an extra turn by Echoing Truthing Confidant at the right time, but I doubt it would have mattered.

Round 5:  I play Lou Christopher playing Ichorid.  The winner top 8s.  The loser does not.  This is a tense high pressure match and I make numerous mistakes:
1:  I flip over a Narcomoeba while shuffling Lou's deck.  He did not call a judge since I was well aware he was on Ichorid before hand.
2:  During an Intuition I put a card in my hand instead of the pile.  This was an accident, but I am sure it looked shady to Lou.  (Note I was Intuitioning for Fastbond, Find, Find and put find in hand out of habit.)
3:  I picked up two cards for my draw phase when I went to draw.
After the third Lou had enough and called a judge who gave me a well deserved game loss.  It was a shame since I was going to combo out that turn regardless of what I drew.

Game 2 I win with turn 1 Needle and an irrelevant turn 2 Lotus, Leyline.  He had Leyline removal.

Game 3 I get no mana in my first hand and mull to 6.   I then get a 1 land hand with 2 brainstorm, no mox and no hate.  Maybe I should have mulled but instead I keep.  I Brainstorm twice into no lands and lose.

Round 6:  I am playing Gush/Dark Confidant control similar to Demars list.  I forget the player's name and do not have notes.  Game 1 was a long control game that I won by casting AKs for 1, 2 and 3 along with Gushing.
Game 2 I resolve turn 1 Ancestral and then combo out on turn 2.

I finished the day 4-2 and in 11th place.

[wiley]

Sounds like you would have done better in the later rounds with more confidence in yourself/the deck.  Still a good job on the standings.  Was there any flash floating around day 2?  Flash is pretty much the only reason I wouldn't run this deck.

On the remora route I proposed earlier:  it hasn't really panned out, it doesn't add enough power to the deck.  I tried it in both a UWG and UBG build and neither worked out very well.  It often ended up tying up drain mana too much and choking off more relevant plays that only became apparent (to me anyway) after I drew for the turn.

As a thought on your side board, would it have been better to make the blessing another dsc for an instant draw with painter?  Also, what would you put in place of trickbind in hindsight?

[meadbert]

Day one I played Flash twice.  Day two I did not play it at all and I am not sure how much there was.

Generally I would say that Painter is a good matchup.  I would rather have Gaea's Blessing reshuffle my deck so I can Intuition->AK again and have a good chance of winning rather than drawing the game.

I suppose that I could say that I wish Trickbind had been another Pithing Needle.  Actually here is a rules question.  Can you Pithing Needle a Faerie Macabre?  If so there was never a need for Trickbind.
Misdirection might have been nice as well to bring in against all of the Control that I played against.

Another issue.  Given the lack of damage going around in the metagame I probably should have played Mana Crypt.

[wiley]

http://magiccards.info/10e/en/338.html

According to the ruling (for those too lazy to click the link here it is :    *  The choice of a named card refers to all cards of that name in the game, even ones that have not entered play. And it even prevents the use of activated abilities of cards with that name in the graveyard or hand. [D'Angelo 2005/12/01]) pithing needle can indeed hit faerie macabre.

[meadbert]

http://magiccards.info/10e/en/338.html

According to the ruling (for those too lazy to click the link here it is :    *  The choice of a named card refers to all cards of that name in the game, even ones that have not entered play. And it even prevents the use of activated abilities of cards with that name in the graveyard or hand. [D'Angelo 2005/12/01]) pithing needle can indeed hit faerie macabre.

That is great news!  I fear Faerie much less now.

[forests failed you]

Round 4:  I play Brian Demars who is playing a controlling creation of his own design with tops, Warrens, Bobs and Drains.  We are playing for top 8 here.  He crushes me both games.  In game 1 I almost came back from oblivion twice.  First, I was able to Balance with Bob out and Brian ahead by 4 in card advantage.  He countered but I Intuitioned for Drains and Drained back.  Later he ripped Yawg and then went to combo out but I Echoing Truth Fastbond at the right time.  It did not matter as the Ancestral and Gush he played were plenty to win.
In game 2 I was behind the whole way after mulliganing and never went anywhere.  I could have survied an extra turn by Echoing Truthing Confidant at the right time, but I doubt it would have mattered.

When you cast Balance I actually already had Yawgmoth's Will in my hand.  In game two I was impressed with your Nomad Stadium and Crucible combo.  I was put into an awkward position where I had a Dark Confidant attacking each turn, but did not have a top so that I could protect my life total.  Both of our lives were around tenish.  I couldn't attack your life total because you could just always gain more life than I could deal with the two power creature, and the Bob kept causing me to lose life.  I actually had to Extirpate the Nomad Stadium in order to push through damage so I could race your life total! 

[wiley]

This deck has had 12 cards cut down:
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Gush
4 Brainstorm

What is the future of the deck?

Obviously these three can fit in as a 1 of, but do we now go back to the past somewhat and add in horn of greed's?  Do we include the zuran orb/glacial chasm in addition and run thirst for knowledge?

replacing those cards with:
1 merchant scroll
1 gush
4 horn of Greed
1 zuran orb
1 glacial chasm
4 thirst for knowledge

Or does the deck go back to an older time such as the versions in these threads:
TurboLand
TurboLand/Oath
** Waterbury TOP 16 report ** Turboland 6th after Round 8
Turboland deck wins Lotus in Minneapolis
TurboNevyn

[meadbert]

Actually, I did not think of Turbo Oath till you mentioned it.  That deck might be good now!

It would tear up Painter since basically Painter would be comboing out for you!

Let them mill your whole deck and then Krosan Reclamation your wins to your library and win.

Interesting.

My most recent straight Turboland list is this:
2 WoodedFoothills
3 WindsweptHeath
2 Bayou
3 TropicalIsland
1 CephalidColliseum
2 Mishra'sFactory
1 StripMine
4 Wasteland
3 Mishra'sWorkshop
2 BazaarOfBaghdad
2 GlacialChasm
1 BlackLotus
1 MoxJet
1 MoxSapphire
1 MoxEmerald
1 SolRing
4 CrucibleOfWorlds
4 HornOfGreed
4 NullRod
1 Yawgmoth'sWill
1 DemonicTutor
1 ImperialSeal
1 VampiricTutor
1 TimeWalk
4 Intuition
1 AncestralRecall
1 Seal of Primordium
4 Exploration
1 Fastbond
1 LifeFromTheLoam
1 Regrowth
sideboard
1 Plateau
3 AncientGrudge
3 RayOfRevelation
4 LeylineOfTheVoid
4 WheelOfSonAndMoon

Horn is safe to play now that Gushbond is nuked.
Mana Denial will be stronger than ever with fewer low cc spells to play.
Null Rod should be good again.

[wiley]

These have been stated in older threads, but I feel they could do with some consideration here.

The Words cycle, specifically War and Wilding:  With bazaar out these become extreme card advantage engines from dealing with aggro hordes to creating a horde of your own.

Vinlasher Kudzu:  Cheap, effecient for the deck, and has no need of the graveyard.

Oath of Druids + Battlefield Scrounger:  Oath is good against creature decks, turbo land is good against control decks.  The way the deck would play oath (infinitely recurring time walk) gives it better game against combo to an extent.

EDIT:  Hoofprints of the Stag is another, newer card to consider as you would then have a renewable army independent of the graveyard and capable of trading with the majority of shop aggro threats, not to mention that the tokens fly.  This may be a better inclusion than oath, since it takes less space and answer the vulnerability to graveyard hate that oath doesn't offer.  The only problem is that it requires 4 draws to get a creature, but that should be doable once per turn with the inclusion of horns and bazaars.

I understand that turboland is not a very popular deck, however it still shows up from time to time and has done well in the past and continues to do so.  I beleive this deck, wether taken in Meadbert's current direction or in a TurboLand/Oath hybrid is a strong choice no matter the meta ahead, I believe this because of the fact that TurboLand's worst match up has always been faster combo decks.  With the recent restrictions it remains to be seen wether combo will maintain its blistering spped.  I predict that it will not.

[wiley]

First off, sorry for the double post, I simply didn't think anyone would look at the thread without the "new" button next to it...

My most recent straight Turboland list is this:
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
3 Tropical Island
1 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Workshop
2 Bazaar Of Baghdad
2 Glacial Chasm
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Sol Ring
4 Crucible Of Worlds
4 Horn Of Greed
4 Null Rod
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Time Walk
4 Intuition
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Seal of Primordium
4 Exploration
1 Fastbond
1 Life From The Loam
1 Regrowth
sideboard
1 Plateau
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Ray Of Revelation
4 Leyline Of The Void
4 Wheel Of Son And Moon

Some questions on your build Meadbert:
1)No Nomad Stadium, I'm assuming that this, like in the last list I proposed, was an oversight?  Without it or Zuran Orb you have no way to combo out.

2)Only Seal of Primordium to take care of your Horn of Greeds for when you want to combo out?  Old lists ran Echoing Truth, as it stands you have to play Yawgmoth's will if you have to get rid of 2 horns.

3)No backup plan, if the opponent extirpates a piece like coliseum I see no way to win.  With the expected increase in "remove target graveyard piece from the game" effects would it be a good idea to run living wish again?

4)4 Crucible of Worlds and 4 Null Rods, is this really the right number?  I would think that you could cut down to three on both and not worry about it thanks to draw from bazaar and horn.

5)3 Ray of Revelation in the sideboard.  Is Oath that bad of a match up?  Against Leyline this card is better off as a seal, and for Oath you should have an excellent stall tactic in Glacial Chasm.  What exactly are these supposed to fight against?

6)Wheel of Sun and Moon, this breaks up your own combo, and without fastbond, zuran orb and horn of greed in play it completely shuts you down as well.  This one doesn't actually help you with the current build, though it certainly could with modifications to the deck.

7)No Argivian Find or Enlightened Tutor, you haven't cut white so I was wondering why these weren't in here.  You've made cases on why to include them several times, is there a reason they were left out of this latest build?

8)No Balance?  This still seems like a good card and had done well for you in the past (though I was/am skeptical of its use in this deck, where you often have more cards and land), was there a reason you did not include this?

9)No Pithing Needle side?  Are there simply better catch all cards for the relevant hate to the deck?  Are you no longer worried about faerie macabre?  How about mindslaver?

10)Is Underscovered Paradise useful anymore?  Especially now that we have horn back in I would think it deserves a spot back into the main deck to draw us cards and fix our mana (though it isn't fetchable).

11)How useful is null rod really?  It will slow down mana accel and stop things like slaver, it doesn't do anything to stacks, wires, juggernoughts, 7/10, welders, platinum angels etc.  I was taking a break in 05 so I'm not sure how viable storm decks will be in the upcoming environment, but is keeping the moxen shut down enough/is it worth dedicating 4 maindeck slots to?

After the 20th we are back down to 1-2 other decks with an infinite combo (dragon and possibly tyrant oath [or bazaar oath if you wish]) and Wheel of Sun and Moon can throw a good curve ball to dragon.  For Tyrant being oathed up it might be good to include Swords to Plowshares in the side, though I'd have to test the match to find out how good/bad it is.

I will post my list after some general testing against DeezNoughts, Slaver and Ichorid.  I'm a little busy on my off time right now (don't you just love it when your water heater breaks >.<), so I don't expect it will be on here for a few days at least.

[meadbert]

You raise some good questions Wiley and I have already tweaked that list because I made some of the same observations that you are making earlier.  In particular I have added Tinker and DSC.
DSC is gorgeous as a backup win condition.  It discards to Bazaar, is easily hardcast and dodges graveyard hate.  Because I run moxes and Rod I can usually tinker out a dead mox.  Also I can Tinker out Horn to keep from decking myself.  I will answer your other questions 1 at a time.

First off, sorry for the double post, I simply didn't think anyone would look at the thread without the "new" button next to it...

Some questions on your build Meadbert:
1)No Nomad Stadium, I'm assuming that this, like in the last list I proposed, was an oversight?  Without it or Zuran Orb you have no way to combo out.

Glacial Chasm functions as Nomad Stadium.  It means you take no damage from Fastbond and can thus combo out as you please.  It also totally hoses Ichorid.  This list is vulnerable to Extirpate on Glacial Chasm.

2)Only Seal of Primordium to take care of your Horn of Greeds for when you want to combo out?  Old lists ran Echoing Truth, as it stands you have to play Yawgmoth's will if you have to get rid of 2 horns.

This was a slight problem.  You have 3 ways to remove Horn since you can also play Regrowth and post board Ancient Grudge frequently comes in.  Still, Intuitioning for Fastbond, Regrowth and Yawg becomes weaker if you already have 2 Horns on the table.  Still even if you are at Risk to decking yourself you can always drop 2 Rods, Strip lock your opponent and win with Factory beats so this was rarely that much of a problem.  It is certainly a consideration though.

3)No backup plan, if the opponent extirpates a piece like coliseum I see no way to win.  With the expected increase in "remove target graveyard piece from the game" effects would it be a good idea to run living wish again?

It turns out that with Wasteland, Glacial Chasm and 2 Factories you can use one Factory to infinitely pump the other and swing in for the win!  In that manner there is a backup combo win.  You can also swing with Factories over several turns if needed.  I love Factories as a backup win and they totally hose SS which is a nice side effect.

4)4 Crucible of Worlds and 4 Null Rods, is this really the right number?  I would think that you could cut down to three on both and not worry about it thanks to draw from bazaar and horn.

After Fastbond and Ancestral Crucible of Worlds and Null Rod are the best cards in the deck.  This is post restriction.  If I could run infinite of each I might run 8 Crucibles and 6 Rods.  They combine to help you play prison and really shut down your opponent.

5)3 Ray of Revelation in the sideboard.  Is Oath that bad of a match up?  Against Leyline this card is better off as a seal, and for Oath you should have an excellent stall tactic in Glacial Chasm.  What exactly are these supposed to fight against?

Leyline of the Void.  You want to be able to Intuition for 3xLeyline removal when you are ready to win.  Seal of Primordium counts as one, but it or a Ray could be Therapies.  Therefore I like access to 4 total and that means 3 Rays.

6)Wheel of Sun and Moon, this breaks up your own combo, and without fastbond, zuran orb and horn of greed in play it completely shuts you down as well.  This one doesn't actually help you with the current build, though it certainly could with modifications to the deck.

The idea is to Enchant your opponent rather than yourself.

7)No Argivian Find or Enlightened Tutor, you haven't cut white so I was wondering why these weren't in here.  You've made cases on why to include them several times, is there a reason they were left out of this latest build?

Basically I have cut white.  There is no white in the maindeck, but there is a Plateau in the board.  Plateau is convenient in that it can be fetched by Windswept Heath and Wooded Foothills and Ancient Grudge and Ray of Revelation are so good against many decks.  Argivian Find and Enlightened Tutor are really good and they would make sense in a 5 color version.  I am working on a 5 color Turbo Oath deck that runs Rainbow lands, but thus far it is not good enough yet.

8)No Balance?  This still seems like a good card and had done well for you in the past (though I was/am skeptical of its use in this deck, where you often have more cards and land), was there a reason you did not include this?

Balance is amazing and could definitely be added to the sideboard.  Keep in mind that it can cause trouble when you have more lands and cards than your opponent.  In that manner it is only removing creatures.  Sickening Dreams can out perform Balance in that scenario.  Sickening Dreams also allows you to draw your whole deck and then win without having to remove Horns.
I have no white in the main and thus Balance is only possible as a sideboard card.

9)No Pithing Needle side?  Are there simply better catch all cards for the relevant hate to the deck?  Are you no longer worried about faerie macabre?  How about mindslaver?

This list is resilient to Faerie.  Basically I drop Rod and Strip lock them and then start milling them with 5 Waste/Strips out.  If they use Faerie to RFG Colliseum then I just Time Walk and swing with an infinite/infinite Factory.
Slaver is shut off by Null Rod.  So is Belcher.
Needle is best for removing Welder and Bazaar.  I already have 5 Wastes so Bazaar rarely stays on the table long as it is.  Welder is more problematic, but that is what Darkblast is for.  I can Intuition for it and thus remove Welder, Confidant or other problematic creatures.

10)Is Underscovered Paradise useful anymore?  Especially now that we have horn back in I would think it deserves a spot back into the main deck to draw us cards and fix our mana (though it isn't fetchable).

Undiscovered Paradise is definitely good.  In 5 colors lists it makes more sense.  It combos with Bazaar and Crucible sort of.  This goes back to the Rainbow Land versus Fetch Land question.  This list runs Fetchlands which allows you to run fewer lands since a single fetch can be replayed with Crucible or Loam.  Another option is to go the rainbow land route in which case maindeck Ancient Grudge is better as are Enlightened Tutor, Argivian Find and Balance.

11)How useful is null rod really?  It will slow down mana accel and stop things like slaver, it doesn't do anything to stacks, wires, juggernoughts, 7/10, welders, platinum angels etc.  I was taking a break in 05 so I'm not sure how viable storm decks will be in the upcoming environment, but is keeping the moxen shut down enough/is it worth dedicating 4 maindeck slots to?

Null Rod is definitely worth it and it is problematic for Stax.  The best reason to use Null Rod is to hose the mana bases of most decks.  Stax is included here.  Stax is more vulnerable to Wasteland than other decks because of the few basic lands that are run.  Also, much of Stax's disruption is helpful for us.  Tangle Wire, Smokestack, Sphere of Resistance and Trinisphere help more than they hurt since we will have more lands in the long run.  Shutting of Stax's moxen makes it tougher for them to cast bombs like Tinker.  Tinker is a big problem since a quick Sundering Titan that takes out a few of our lands is frequently more than we can answer.
Null Rod almost ALWAYS draws a counter spell.  It happens all the time that a game starts like this:
Turn 1:  Land, Exploration, Land, eot vamp.
Turn 2:  Shop->Rod (Forced), Fastbond, Crucible/Horn, win.

The changes I ended up making were to the main deck and they were:
-1 Bazaar
-1 Seal of Primordium
+1 Tinker
+1 DSC

The are two weaknesses I have come across.   
1) If Ray of Revelation is Duresses with Leyline out then I can no longer Intuition for 3x Enchantment removal.  This is mitigated because I can add Tinker to that list and thus either remove Leyline and win or Tinker for DSC.  Tinker frequently grabs Crucible and Null Rod as well.  Also, if I am trying to set up a huge Yawg I can Tinker out Null Rod for Black Lotus and in that manner make the Yawg that much better.
2)  There is no longer any maindeck removal for Platinum Angel.  Perhaps Barbarian Ring should be put back in.  Basically I am still expecting Angles to mostly go away because of Welder, but ICBM seems to consider Platz the best Oath target.  Post board I have 3x Ray and 3xGrudge along with Intuition to find them so Platz becomes a very weak Oath target.  Also, Tyrant is not scary at all since it is trivial to go Land, Fastbond, win next turn even if your whole board is bounced!  If they Force Fastbond you are hosed, but if they were able to resolve Oath and Oath out Tyrant with Force in hand the whole time you were already losing badly anyway.

Anyway, Turboland tends to struggle a bit with Slaver although this list is meta-ed to beat Slaver.  Turboland is CRUSHED by Drain Tendrils so I am not sure this is a great option right now.  I am trying out various configurations with Rainbow mana bases and Oath of Druids.  I have also tried dropping Explorations and Horns.  The problem I keep running into is that the Battlefield Scrounger win ends up being too reliant on the yard.  One option is to put some Duress/Thoughtseize/Therapy in the board then run a different Oath creature such as DSC or Razia/Akroma/Spirit.

Finally, River Kelpie seems like it could be really good in Turboland in theory since it acts like a 1 sided Horn of Greed with Crucible out.  Also, Flashback cards like Grudge and Ray would be good as would Cabal Therapy.  Again, everything I put together ends up being too reliant on the graveyard.

Here is a sample of what I have in mind for TurboOath.  It has not tested THAT well so far but it does better against Drain Tendrils and Control Slaver than the list above.
Having access to Duress in the board should help against Long as well.

4 CityOfBrass
4 ForbiddenOrchard
4 GemstoneMine
1 NomadStadium
1 BarbarianRing
1 CephalidColliseum
4 AncientTomb
1 StripMine
4 Wasteland
1 BazaarOfBaghdad
1 GlacialChasm
1 BlackLotus
4 CrucibleOfWorlds
4 Intuition
4 NullRod
1 Yawgmoth'sWill
1 DemonicTutor
1 ImperialSeal
1 VampiricTutor
1 TimeWalk
1 EchoingTruth
1 AncestralRecall
4 OathOfDruids
1 Fastbond
1 BattlefieldScrounger
1 LifeFromTheLoam
1 Regrowth
1 KrosanReclamation
4 ArgivianFind
1 EnlightenedTutor
sideboard:
1 Razia,BorosArchangel
1 AncientGrudge
4 LeylineOfTheVoid
1 SpiritOfTheNight
4 Duress
1 InTheEyeOfChaos
1 SealOfPrimordium
1 AkromaAngelOfWrath
1 RayOfRevelation

There are something like 26 lands in this list and 0 Explorations which is a bit clunky.  It means Chasm lock is tougher to establish against Ichorid.  Still, there are a ton of Tutors for Fastbond and Exploration seemed a bit weak in a deck with no Horns and such a low mana curve.  Also, while the fetchland list just wants a fetch so it card start replaying lands with Crucible, this list has no Fetches and thus wants to draw into more land.

Also, many of the lands are utility lands such as Bazaar, Chasm, Barbarian Ring, Nomad Stadium, Cephalid Colliseum, Strip Mine and Wasteland.  In that manner there are only 12 lands who function as "just" lands and Orchard can work against you if you are not close to finding Oath.  Anyway, this list is not optimal nor is it even close to optimal.  Balance might make sense in the main deck or sideboard.  4xArgivian Find is probably too many.  It is just what I have right now.

[wiley]

Ok, so apparently it helps if I RTFC.  That clears up chasm and wheel pretty easily 

Have you thought of running a Platz as a tinker target?  It keeps you from drawing to death, allows you to combo out normally, is easier to cast, can stall you into a win, still gets toyed with by welder and beats slower.

In terms of a graveyard independant strategy (aside from tinker -> robot) I think Hoofprints of the Stag is probably the best bet, but since you aren't running white you could steal a little from worse than gro and run vinelasher kudzu and some ghost quarters.  They (the quarters) could work work kind of like fetch lands for you and fix your mana/ pump the kudzu.  Plus that adds another redundant piece to the strip mine/wasteland portion of the combo.  Another option if you run red is Atog, since it can eat useless moxen, null rods, horns
and crucibles, either helping you combo out or providing a good alternate win con/chump blocker.  Just some thoughts.

How hard would it be to squeeze in a single zuran orb main, and how often do you think playing it against a storm deck would actually happen?  I'm guessing things like drain tendrils aren't going to run rod so you could tinker it out for orb and gain inf. life, blanking all of their win cons.  If you run maindeck artifact destruction they couldn't even stall with platz (also true if you use a barbarian ring).

I'm not sure I like the kelpie as you can't cast it off a workshop like you can horn, yes it is one sided and has persist but it most likely comes out a turn later and you want the effect asap.