Empty GAT

[ErkBek]

I've been running GAT at my past couple tournaments and I'm really happy with this list:

Mana 19
8 Fetch
3 Usea
2 Trop
1 Volc
1 Island
1 Lotus
1 Emerald
1 Sapphire
1 Jet
0 Ruby (not "on-color" enough, rather have another blue source I think)

Control 13
4 FoW
3 MisD
4 Duress
1 Echoing Truth
1 Fire/Ice

Kill 5
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Dryad
0 Tog

Draw/Broken 23
4 BS
4 Ponder
4 Scroll
4 Gush
1 VT
1 DT
1 MT
1 Fastbond
1 Ancestral
1 Will
1 Walk
0 Cunning Wish

SB
4 Flux
3 Goyf
3 REB
2 Jailer
3 Needle

I find it interesting that Menendian and I have nearly identical lists despite working on the deck completely independently. I really think Warrens is great in GAT now that Ponder is in the deck. Ponder finds you broken cards fast allowing much better comboing.

Basically, Empty the Warrens gives the deck a combo finish that alleviates the problem of needing to have a creature in play when you start comboing. You can combo freely into Warrens allowing you to jump through less hoops, often times meaning you can combo on less life or kill them quicker. ETW also allows you to not have to worry about cards like STP, Repeal, Chain of Vapor, etc. mid and post comboing. Lastly, the addition of Warrens allows you to cut Cunning Wish since it gives you a better combo finish that can win through almost all the same situations. Not running Wish frees up space for both Fire/Ice and Echoing Truth in the main giving you all the toolbox you need in the Scroll engine.

I like Goyfs on the board a lot, so against Stax you can have 7-2 mana creatures that come down fast. In conjunction with Engery Flux it seems they are always back pedaling.

Questions? Comments? Hate? Discuss!

[zimmerbloke]

Two comments on your list.

1) On the manabase... I'm not still sure about the right answer here, but what's your logic for only running a single basic?  I know Gush gives good Wasteland protection, but I like the added stability of having the second Island.  How has your Stax matchup been with only one basic?  I like being able to develop early without huge fear of Wasteland, and I feel basic #2 gives me that ability without really color-screwing me noticably.

2) This is the first time I've seen a list playing around with something I've been running through my head, the exclusion of Berserk.  Often it's been easy enough just to drop a threat and play control until the end, but I can't justify folding to repeatable blockers (Zombie Infestation), so it seems like the trample is necessary.  Also, there's the "oops, I win" factor often enough.  Can you expand on what finally pushed you to cutting Berserk?

Also, what sort of metagame have you tuned this list for?  With Misdirections over Drains and only Dryads maindeck, it seems like you're in a pretty control heavy meta.  Is Flux + 'goyf enough out of the board for Stax?  I've felt like some targeted artifact destruction is necessary.

[desolutionist]

Eric, I have a similar list.  Major differences are in the disruption package since I play Drains over Misdirections and I also maindeck Goyfs.  I definitely agree with Empty the Warrens in this deck though; first I tried testing Burning Wish->Tendrils, but realized that EtW is just better.

I still think REB is pretty awful, what are you siding it in against?

Here's my list:

// Lands
    3  Polluted Delta
    3  Flooded Strand
    1  Volcanic Island
    1  Island
    3  Underground Sea
    3  Tropical Island

// Creatures
    3  Tarmogoyf
    3  Quirion Dryad

// Spells
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Yawgmoth's Will
    1  Fastbond
    1  Hurkyl's Recall
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Time Walk
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Fire/Ice
    1  Empty the Warrens
    4  Merchant Scroll
    1  Ancestral Recall
    1  Demonic Tutor
    1  Mystical Tutor
    1  Vampiric Tutor
    3  Ponder
    3  Thoughtseize
    3  Mana Drain
    4  Force of Will
    4  Brainstorm
    4  Gush

// Sideboard
SB: 3  Energy Flux
SB: 1  Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1  Yixlid Jailer
SB: 1  Extirpate
SB: 2  Duress
SB: 1  Smother
SB: 2  Pithing Needle
SB: 1  Ancient Grudge
SB: 3  Repeal

[ErkBek]

Two comments on your list.

1) On the manabase... I'm not still sure about the right answer here, but what's your logic for only running a single basic?  I know Gush gives good Wasteland protection, but I like the added stability of having the second Island.  How has your Stax matchup been with only one basic?  I like being able to develop early without huge fear of Wasteland, and I feel basic #2 gives me that ability without really color-screwing me noticably.

2) This is the first time I've seen a list playing around with something I've been running through my head, the exclusion of Berserk.  Often it's been easy enough just to drop a threat and play control until the end, but I can't justify folding to repeatable blockers (Zombie Infestation), so it seems like the trample is necessary.  Also, there's the "oops, I win" factor often enough.  Can you expand on what finally pushed you to cutting Berserk?

Also, what sort of metagame have you tuned this list for?  With Misdirections over Drains and only Dryads maindeck, it seems like you're in a pretty control heavy meta.  Is Flux + 'goyf enough out of the board for Stax?  I've felt like some targeted artifact destruction is necessary.

1) I'd like 2 basics yeah, but I think you'll lose just as many games to color screw if you do. In 3C gat I ran 2 basics, 5 duals, and 8 fetches and it worked perfectly. I wanted the same strength to get the right colors in a 4C manabase. If you feel that 2 Islands are the way to go, don't let me stop you.

2) Echoing Truth provides answers to everything Trample does. The only think I'm lacking is the double power thing, which I don't think is that big of a deal since warrens gives you a whole new way to combo out. 

I built this list for an open metagame, with most consideration going to GAT, SS Nought, and Red Shop Aggro.

I like the Goyf/Flux plan since you make Shops have answer your threats rather than the other way around.

Eric, I have a similar list.  Major differences are in the disruption package since I play Drains over Misdirections and I also maindeck Goyfs.  I definitely agree with Empty the Warrens in this deck though; first I tried testing Burning Wish->Tendrils, but realized that EtW is just better.

I still think REB is pretty awful, what are you siding it in against?

I think both Shay and Menendian have said Reb is the best card for the GAT mirror. Knowing that they are both more familiar with the matchup, so I went with that. I haven't been totally impressed with REB for the mirror, but I've only played maybe 5 post boarded mirrors with this list.

[Millerd33]

I have no insite here but would like to read more of this deck so....

Bump it up!

Hello, and welcome to The Mana Drain.  While we appreciate new users taking an interest in our discussions, we do expect that all posts to the forums include a minimum amount of content that this post, unfortunately, does not satisfy.  Please review our site rules to avoid this problem going forward.  We look forward to your future contributions.  -DA

[EVG]

Hmm I seriously agree with zimmerbloke... I feel that Drains are way better then MisD at the moment. If you are going to be running ETW then I would def. recommend playing Drain over MisD. But that is just my opinion. Also what is your opinion on Thoughtseize in this build?

[ErkBek]

Hmm I seriously agree with zimmerbloke... I feel that Drains are way better then MisD at the moment. If you are going to be running ETW then I would def. recommend playing Drain over MisD. But that is just my opinion. Also what is your opinion on Thoughtseize in this build?

I feel if you want to play Mana Drains and Gush together, you should play Empty Gush. Drains and Dryads just aren't very synergistic. You don't need Drain into Will to combo with GAT.

I love MisD in GAT since it allows you to aggressively go for Scroll -> Ancestral and to protect from theirs.

It seems like I rarely have the opportunity to play Drain unless I'm already applying pressure with a Dryad.

[desolutionist]

Hmm I seriously agree with zimmerbloke... I feel that Drains are way better then MisD at the moment. If you are going to be running ETW then I would def. recommend playing Drain over MisD. But that is just my opinion. Also what is your opinion on Thoughtseize in this build?

I feel if you want to play Mana Drains and Gush together, you should play Empty Gush. Drains and Dryads just aren't very synergistic. You don't need Drain into Will to combo with GAT.

I love MisD in GAT since it allows you to aggressively go for Scroll -> Ancestral and to protect from theirs.

It seems like I rarely have the opportunity to play Drain unless I'm already applying pressure with a Dryad.

I've been pleased with Mana Drain in my build, I wonder why we're experiencing different results.

With the incline of MUD, could Null Rod become a really great sideboard card?  It's obviously really good to have out, but a lot less dynamic than something like Pithing Needle...  You might not even get to 2 mana before your opponent goes crazy.  At the same time, Pithing Needle is so hit-or-miss.  Worker, Karn, Ravager, and Triskelion; can't name them all.

[Grand Inquisitor]

1 Empty the Warrens
4 Dryad
0 Tog

I find this an interesting choice given your earlier comments:

Quirion Dryad was the weakest part of GAT.

Totally agree.

Granted, the format has slowed down since last summer.

This combination of win conditions seems strange to me since it doesn't alleviate many of the bottlenecks this deck faces.  You also no longer have a slow roll option.  When you commit a dryad you don't have the drains and wish to contain the opponent, and if you go with EtW you risk playing into echoing truth, or an opposing win condition that doesn't require time walk.  Not that Psychatog is any faster, and you do lose a slot to wish/truth.  However, you can drop a tog without having to blow your load, and you don't have to try to cram it into the big yawgwill turn like EtW (or make sure it's timed before, like Dryad).

3 MisD

I feel that Drains are way better then MisD at the moment

Drains and Dryads just aren't very synergistic...I love MisD in GAT since it allows you to aggressively go for Scroll -> Ancestral and to protect from theirs

ELD has done a great job elsewhere explaining why he likes misdirection in this metagame.  I tend to think the mirror isn't as focused on ancestral recall, and that it's more important to stop fastbond.  Since there's a number of ways to break down the matchup, I tend to think the more flexible the answer the better (drain).  However, this is also because I like playing the control into combo strategy (hence me playing tog, which has more synergy with drains).  People have had success with both approaches, so it's as much playstyle and metagame as anything.

[Smmenen]

At the same time, Pithing Needle is so hit-or-miss.  Worker, Karn, Ravager, and Triskelion; can't name them all.

Nor would you want to.   Needle does nothing on Worker.  That's what I was LOling about in the MUD thread.

[desolutionist]

Right, he's a mana source.  I wish I could make it look like I knew what I was talking about.

[ErkBek]

I've been pleased with Mana Drain in my build, I wonder why we're experiencing different results.

Basically, I like how MisD allows me to play much more aggressively and just stomp on my opponent on turn 1-3. They can't go for Ancestral and I can (among other plays). I'm not certain that 0 Drain is the best way to go, I like the MisD a lot since it serves as FoW 5-7 in many matches.

1 Empty the Warrens
4 Dryad
0 Tog

I find this an interesting choice given your earlier comments:

Quirion Dryad was the weakest part of GAT.

Totally agree.

Granted, the format has slowed down since last summer.

This combination of win conditions seems strange to me since it doesn't alleviate many of the bottlenecks this deck faces.  You also no longer have a slow roll option.  When you commit a dryad you don't have the drains and wish to contain the opponent, and if you go with EtW you risk playing into echoing truth, or an opposing win condition that doesn't require time walk.  Not that Psychatog is any faster, and you do lose a slot to wish/truth.  However, you can drop a tog without having to blow your load, and you don't have to try to cram it into the big yawgwill turn like EtW (or make sure it's timed before, like Dryad).

3 MisD

I feel that Drains are way better then MisD at the moment

Drains and Dryads just aren't very synergistic...I love MisD in GAT since it allows you to aggressively go for Scroll -> Ancestral and to protect from theirs

ELD has done a great job elsewhere explaining why he likes misdirection in this metagame.  I tend to think the mirror isn't as focused on ancestral recall, and that it's more important to stop fastbond.  Since there's a number of ways to break down the matchup, I tend to think the more flexible the answer the better (drain).  However, this is also because I like playing the control into combo strategy (hence me playing tog, which has more synergy with drains).  People have had success with both approaches, so it's as much playstyle and metagame as anything.

Ponder has totally changed GAT. GAT is faster and plays even more sorcery speed spells too.

Empty Gifts has entered the format as a better Gush-Drain Variant.

[LordHomerCat]

Ponder does seem like a pretty big consideration, along with the move to 5+ duress effects in a lot of lists, which makes drain worse.  Personally, when I first started up with Gro last year, I had 2 drains, but they just seemed worse and worse every time I played the deck until Ponder became legal and then they were not even a consideration.  I can see the temptation to run something more like Smennen and Mastriano's psychatog decks, in which case drain is very strong, but I don't feel like they are strong in GAT which tends to play a suprisingly large number of sorcery speed spells (the creatures, scrolls, ponders, duresses, demonic, fastbond, will) which are really hard to protect with drain.  MisD definitely feels like a better fit, but personally I had even been cutting those as of the last time I played because they were such trash in the Shop matchups (which seem like the hardest matchup).