Vintage: A love/hate format.

[ErkBek]

I love playing vintage, but there are a few cards that just....unfair and make me hate playing the format. They make the format less fun to play because they can create unwinnable situations for your opponent simply because they are in your opening hand. I think there are certain broken cards that I make Vintage the unique and enjoyable format that we've all come to love, contributing more to the "fun factor" and allow us to push the limits of deckbuilding and have clean combo finishes, unlike any other format. Namely 3 restricted cards have highly shaped the format since as long as I can remember:

Black Lotus
Ancestral Recall
Yawgmoth's Will

These 3 cards are all staples of the UB combo and control decks that have always stood at the top of the format. Without any one of these cards, the format wouldn't be remotely the same, they define Vintage. If you lose these staples, you're not playing Vintage anymore, you're playing Legacy with better cards. I've heard people suggest that each of these cards should be banned, but I disagree. While these cards are all very good, there are other restricted cards that create just as many (if not more) "I can't lose no matter what games," cards that generally don't contribute to the format being skill intensive and cause it to be luck based. I've identified 3 restricted cards that I feel create more hate toward vintage than love:

Fastbond (with unrestricted Gush)
Necropotence
Trinisphere

These 3 cards contribute to more "I can't lose no matter what games" than Lotus, Ancestral, and Will because singlehandedly they win games and are often times playable on turn 1, do to the format's mana acceleration. These "I can't lose" cards remove interaction from the game, creating games and matches that are won and lost purely on luck and can have nothing at all to do with skill. A lot of people have called for the restriction of Flash and Bazaar of Baghdad for the exact same reasons, which I totally agree with.

I think Vintage players are a little too focused on precedents at times rather than what's best for the game. Is it more important that the game keeps the precedent of you can play all the cards ever printed? Or is it more important to have a healthy, enjoyable, skill rewarding format?

If you were to change anything about Vintage, what would you change? Do you think the format can be improved upon by breaking precedent?

Discuss!

[Twaun007]

Fastbond (with unrestricted Gush)
Necropotence
Trinisphere

How did Merchant Scroll miss this list? Fastbond would not be nearly as dangerous without Merchant Scroll.

[Harlequin]

I think this can all be traced back to a players perception of "Luck." 

A single game's outcome can be determined by "Luck" however I contest that all things being equal, the course of a tournament has nothing to to do with luck.

Consider a Typical Bell Curve that maps the probably of your -starting- hand (after you've mulliganed).  On the distant left, you have a low probability of keeping those terrible 5-hands.  this builds to the low probability of a "weak" hand.  Probability is clustered in the middle of a "Typical" hand.  And Probability Wanes as you approach "Amazing Hand" all the way up to "God-Hand."   

Now consider that your opponent has a similar bell curve.  Each of you draw your hand, and end up somewhere on your continuum.  If you have a "weak" hand, and your opponent has better than a "good" hand - you will lose no matter how good you are.  If the reverse is true, then the result is true.  These are what I'll call "Blow Out" Matches.  There is a high chance that both players will have relatively equal hands... Including situations where both players have "weak" hands or both have "Amazing" hands.  This is where the format becomes defined by skill.

The Curve for any given Competitive Vintage Deck is certainly has more probability in the "Amazing" section than say, Extended or even Legacy.  Vintage in essence has a huge scope of powerful hands.  This is what I love about the format.  The best games of magic are played when both players have "Amazing" hands.  This is why I play vintage and no other format.  I live for the chance to play an Amazing-vrs-Amazing match up. 

Over the course of the tournament, I should expect to get totally "Blown Out" in 1 or 2 games in 6 rounds.  Also, If I choose a competitive deck, I should also be able to have my own "Blow Out" games with the same frequency.  These probabilities are a wash.  Will my "luck" sometimes keep me out of top-8?  Of course! But I won't lose sleep over it.  There's always next time (Maybe next time my "luck" will make it easy for me to Top-8).  But Blow Out games aside, this still leaves more than half of the games played left up to skill.  This is why Top-8's from store to store, region to region consistently feature the same players.  It's not because these consistently Top-8ing players have some mystical Voodoo that makes them draw better cards more frequently.  It's because players like this consistently pull wins when hands are fair, and can even turn the tide on a "Typical-vrs-Amazing" or "Weak-vrs-Typical" opener.

You may have noticed that I have avoided talking about any of the specific cards you listed. I have so deliberately.  And this is because I think the game is in good balance.  I haven't lost sight of the fact that there IS a threshold.  No one wants Vintage to be the Coin-Flip format, where winning and losing is based solely on how good you draw your opening hand. 

While No format is 100% skill based, Formats with more restricted card pools typically have smaller gaps between "Weak" and "Amazing."  This means a higher proportion of matches will start on even footing.  As you widen the card pool, the gap between "I Mull to Oblivion" and "So many Insane plays" widens as well.  As I said before, Vintage is at the top of the heap.  Vintage is the only format where I talk about a new threshold of hand that I call the "God Hand."  These hands involve the most broken cards in vintage.  Hands fuled by Lotus, Ancestral, DT, Force of Will; Shop, Trinisphere, Stripmine/Crucible; Fow/Duress, Dark Rit, Necro. 

Again, This is why I play Vintage.  And Again, I think the format is currently in good balance.  In my Opinion, The current format has an acceptable ratio of "Blow Out" games to normal games; as well as maintaining a high frequency of truly "Amazing" games where both players have high caliber hands.

[Pyromaniac]

...
Again, This is why I play Vintage.  And Again, I think the format is currently in good balance.  In my Opinion, The current format has an acceptable ratio of "Blow Out" games to normal games; as well as maintaining a high frequency of truly "Amazing" games where both players have high caliber hands.

[rant] Let the whining, finger pointing and denial begin!![/rant]

Maybe I'll chime in (for the first time in a few years I'll actually post something on vintage ) on this for a bit. I think that the problem(well, problem, at least my perception of a problem, I'll leave it in the middle if it is one or not) is that most of the hands in "amazing games" are game winners on their own. They are quite independent on what your opponent is doing, unless he has multiple counters or disruption effects. "Amazing hand" games generally mean that someone has 1-2 threats AND your opponent has either answers or better threats. Or is there another definition of these amazing games?

We as a community are progressing in this format and understanding better and better how to build the best decks, which can fan open the most powerful 7-card hands as frequently as possible. We're striving to build decks that are least affected by your opponents plays. Let's face it, generally all of the decks we try to play now try to minimize interaction with your opponent by forcing through your own gameplan via counters/speed or just stopping him from playing stuff altogether(stax/MUD)

The format is becoming worse and worse for it as the amount of hands that "just win" is becoming larger and larger in decks: mulliganning to Bazaar as the sole requirement for Ichorid decks springs to mind(Oversimplification, I know, but it's just to make a point).

While I can see the fun of this and used to like T1 a lot, stepping back from it for a month or 9 let me see how bad it really was (or is, depending on your p.o.v). I don't want this to end in yet another debate for restrictions/bannings because frankly, I don't care. The format for now is still fun enough for me to play and random enough so I won't face god draws every other game. It's just a hobby and I can't say I spend any time on it at the moment because trying to invent something new is well..boring in this format. Generally speaking, unless a new mechanic comes out, it's just adding a few other cards to a certain pre-existing core.

Eventually, something will have to be done about this. While I doubt we'll see cards in future sets that enter the restricted list(Wizards is wisening up), a few others should be put onto it like:

Gush (free card draw is NEVER fair)
Flash (no-skill wins are what restricted 3sphere)
Merchant Scroll (tutors for restricted cards)
possibly Bazaar (dredge...blegh, what a dumb and unfortunately, skill-less mechanic)

Yes, I know that there are answers to these cards, but it should be apparent that playing answers isn't the solution to a problem: I'll point to T2-Ravager and leave it at that. There are other cards I'm pondering about occasionally as well, mostly mana acceleration, but this is always in combination with restricted cards.

Anyways, we're also continuously trying to abuse a few cards in this format and frankly I'm getting sick and tired of it, as I see that as "stifling innovation" or some random term like that: next to the unrestricted cards that don't require/reward skillfull play, a few restricted cards don't do this either, which is why they are restricted in the first place. I think Gifts' restriction was caused by 1 card: Will (and to a lesser extent, Lotus). There are numerous other cards that are on the list because of Will, Academy, Recall and a few other widely played(and horribly overpowered/undercosted) cards. I couldn't care less if these cards would be banned eventually, because the format will only get better: the precedent of "all the cards should be playable" should be dumped because it's old, outdated and in dire need of revision.

Yes, I know people will look at me and be like "we're playing legacy with better cards then". I know, BUT, Legacy is fair to a much larger extent and I much prefer it to playing vintage atm. What is wrong with a format being more fair and less "Look, I drew such-and-such card in my opening 7, I'm SO skillfull"?

[hauntedechos]

Certainly some good debate happening over here =)

I guess I'll try and add another point of view as well.  I've seen what Harlequin has brought up and Pyromaniac as well, both valid points to consider.  However I think that it's not quite so black and white as both seem to put it.  True as Harlequin said, you can look at the percentages and all that jazz, and compare it to possibilities and what have you, but breaking it down: based on our card pool these things happen.  On the other hand, looking at what Pyromaniac has said, I think he has some good points, but on the whole it feels like a haters point of view, based on personal preference on how the game "should be played".

If I could put my point plainly:  If you like the higher chances to "oops I win" or "luck factor" or "percentage to fan a God hand" or however you want to put it, then play something that has strong combo and runs the majority of the power cards.  If you want more interaction and would rather lean on "skill" and leave the "it's so broken it's boring" cards alone, play Fish or Goblins or something "fair" like that.  Vintage offeres something for everyone, and if for some reason you are SOO disgusted and disheartened by the power cards and enablers, then go play Legacy.

Clearly this debate seems fueled by the want/need to win games offset by how an individual feels about how they were beaten.  If it were about how YOU beat a player and it's acceptability, then you would play Fish.  If it's not that simple, then clearly you have a stronger need to actually WIN versus play the game.  It may seem very narrow a way of thinking to many of you, but be honest with yourselves.

In regards to the point made about how much innovation is going on versus, a consistent attempt to break the same cards.  I'd have to disagree.  There is a person currently trying to refine a list that plays heavy card draw (no gush mind you) and pure control with Tidespout (sans the cheating Oath card main) and cunning wish into Brainfreeze as the combo win.  Hrmm sounds pretty fair to me even with the damn power in it.

Still others that were flamed from Quebec for playing a "pile", yet these people are making top 8's at invitational tournies!!  that's pretty fair to me.  it's up to the individuals to DECIDE to play fair and innovate.  You can't wait for DCI to force you to, if it ACTUALLY means anything to you instead of some topic to rant on about.

I played U/W/B Fish for years and just recently stopped to explore Storm Combo that isn't fully powered, I never complained about the card pool once.  I actually enjoyed all of you people that go out there and buy/win power, so that I can drop an interactive Null Rod and laugh when kataki and Mage names and jotun grunts potentially win.  It's a choice the individual makes, you don't HAVE to play with power in Vintage, as long as you are happy with less than stellar percentages against top tier decks.

just my 2 cents and I don't think there is one right or wrong perception of this topic.  As well I applaud Eric for opening it up to see what the players are really made of.

[zeus-online]

Oh god no, don't turn this into legacy...tried for a few weeks and me and my test partners all arived simultaneously at the same point of "OMG, let's stop playing this boring format".

Anyway, on to the point:
There are only a few cards i think should be changed...I don't mind getting blown out by a turn 1 necropotence or most other restricted cards, but i do hate non-interactive decks like ichorid which dodges every normal piece of disruption you throw at them...i find that really unfun.

Let's just face it: Noone likes to watch their opponent play solitary.

Now in vintage most decks face the same dilema....If you press the speed button you decrease the consistency...Decks that dodge this problem is a serious problem - I'm talking about flash and ichorid mostly...While their results (Tournament wise) does not back up a restriction, i think the mere existence of such monsters is a horrible mistake! Getting blown out by necropotence is a simple low percentage chance of a game ending turn 1, while getting blown out by flash is a very real and common thing as the deck can often if not always kill within the first 3 turns with one or more counterspells to protect the combo....While ichorid dodges all the disruption that most people pack maindeck (Duress, FoW, Drain, Thoughtseize, lock components)

However, decks which involve more luck then skill (Ichorid, flash) Always seems to end up doing worse then the decks which rewards good play (GAT) This somewhat evens out the whole problem, but still - Getting blown out consistently just because your opponent drew flash, land, mox, hulk, Pact, Pact is not fun.

I think banning will could make the format better, but there's also the chance that the format becomes dull...everyone loves their will turns, me included and i think we might just all miss it if it left the format.

So what can be done?
Get rid of unrestricted cards which turns games into skill-less blind luck:
Flash namely
Something from ichorid that is not bazaar of baghdad (I love bazaar, but hate ichorid, what a mess)
Merchant scroll (Okay scroll decks usually requires your brain to be awake, but it's SO strong!)

/Zeus

Oh and as a side note, restricted cards that i feel are just too annoying to play against includes:
Library of alexandria - Fortunetly it's slow, but i have just seen too many matches end turn 1 with an active LoA.
Yawgmoth's bargain - It's expensive, but no card in all of magic makes me feel like i just lost no matter what i do, like good ol' bargain.
Trinisphere - Not being able to play your cards ever again is SLIGHTLY annoying.

[Sextiger]

The only cards/decks that send me into a rage are Flash, Fastbond and Ichorid

Fastbond: With the unrestriction of Gush, this has become a card that usually creates an auto-win on the first turn, it costs one mana and is backed by numerous pitch counters.
Flash: Similar to Fastbond, an essential auto win spell if the conditions are right, backed by numerous pitch counters
Ichorid: I have never lost to the deck but it has certainly warped my deckbuilding as well as everyone's else, forcing people to devote up to half a sideboard for one deck.

The easy way to cure the Fastbond problem is to simply re-restrict Gush.  Flash could easily get restricted as well due to its unfair nature.  As for dealing with Ichorid, the problem at hand is a bit more complicated.  I do not wish to see Bazaar restricted because it is completely fair in many other decks, if restricted it would make a lot of decks not viable.  Besides restricting Bazaar, the best solution would be to restrict a piece or two, most likely Bridge or possibly Serum Powder. 

With Flash and Ichorid gone, then people can begin to once again have a real sideboard, not 7-8 cards and 4 leylines/3 Needles/etc.

[diopter]

The only cards/decks that send me into a rage are Flash, Fastbond and Ichorid

Fastbond: With the unrestriction of Gush, this has become a card that usually creates an auto-win on the first turn, it costs one mana and is backed by numerous pitch counters.
Flash: Similar to Fastbond, an essential auto win spell if the conditions are right, backed by numerous pitch counters
Ichorid: I have never lost to the deck but it has certainly warped my deckbuilding as well as everyone's else, forcing people to devote up to half a sideboard for one deck.

The easy way to cure the Fastbond problem is to simply re-restrict Gush.  Flash could easily get restricted as well due to its unfair nature.  As for dealing with Ichorid, the problem at hand is a bit more complicated.  I do not wish to see Bazaar restricted because it is completely fair in many other decks, if restricted it would make a lot of decks not viable.  Besides restricting Bazaar, the best solution would be to restrict a piece or two, most likely Bridge or possibly Serum Powder. 

With Flash and Ichorid gone, then people can begin to once again have a real sideboard, not 7-8 cards and 4 leylines/3 Needles/etc.

I'm ambivalent towards Flash atm, so I wouldn't really blink if it went away. It's not putting up great numbers though, so I don't think it's a problem.

The other two, I'm going to have to disagree with, however. If you want to fix Fastbond, I don't think restricting Gush is the way to do it. Gush has created a lot of fun archetypes to play, I think it deserves to stay. As for Ichorid, it keeps Will decks honest. With 15-card sideboards, it used to be too easy to make a Drain deck that was very resilient to everything (Slaver, Gifts, etc.), which is why Drains dominated for so long. Now decks actually have autoloss (or at least very unfavorable) matchups, which is the way it is in other formats.

[Sextiger]

Gush has created a lot of fun archetypes??? What fantasy world do you live in? There are two real decks, GAT and Gush Storm, which is GAT with Rituals. 

[diopter]

Gush has created a lot of fun archetypes??? What fantasy world do you live in? There are two real decks, GAT and Gush Storm, which is GAT with Rituals. 

You're forgetting the type of decks that exist as a by product of the Gush metagame, mainly all the Workshop variants and even stuff like Goblins that is good against GAT.

Created was the wrong word, I should have said "enabled"

[Rock Lee]

I love fairness within unfairness. The only "hatred" I can understand for Vintage, is being forced to adapt to increasing innovative trends and responses to the meta.

If you're not riding that wave you're drowning in the riptide. Surfs up!

[Smmenen]

I dunno know about whether particular cards are too good, but in terms of the metagame, it's really hard to argue that this is anything but a golden age of Vintage.

A year ago this time, Gifts and Pitch Long were the two top decks.  Everything else was pretty much second tier.  The metagame was super fast, super brutal and not terribly diverse.

Now it is incredibly diverse and UB combo decks are at a very low ebb.

If you want to interact in Vintage and play a game that lasts more than a few turns, there has never been a better opportunity in the last 3 years than right now.

[forests failed you]

The brokenness kind of comes with the territory, it is also one of the reasons they don't have Vintage pro tours.

Yes, those cards are nuts--but most people who play Vintage like the nuts.  Its just part of the game.

[Webster]

I think Vintage players are a little too focused on precedents at times rather than what's best for the game. Is it more important that the game keeps the precedent of you can play all the cards ever printed? Or is it more important to have a healthy, enjoyable, skill rewarding format?

A few observations:

1. I follow basically any type 1 tournament data that gets posted at themanadrain.com, morphling.de, and germagic.de. For every geographic location, there is consistancy in who makes top 8. There are always a few people from a certain group who make it as well as some randoms.

2. The banned list for type 1 is broken down into three categories: ante cards, dexterity cards (falling star/chaos orb), and shahrazad (which is a nightmare for tournament play).



Do we, the collective group of people that plays type 1, not feel that the format is healthy, enjoyable, and skill rewarding right now? I certainly believe that it is. Unless whatever group I am in is in the minority and the majority is actually a group of barbarians demanding to wield their bronze tablets and chaos orbs on the field of battle, I don't see what the problem is.

If you were to change anything about Vintage, what would you change? Do you think the format can be improved upon by breaking precedent?

I think the format is fine. What I want for vintage will never happen. Sufficed to say, I'm content with the way things are right now; barely.

[tomjoad]

I think the format is fine. What I want for vintage will never happen. Sufficed to say, I'm content with the way things are right now; barely.

Well, now I'm curious. What is it that you would like to see happen, but never will?

[oneofchaos]

I'm more mad at the fact ichorid is allowed to exist than gush being unrestricted.  What happens when your favorite video game controller stops working then magically starts working by itself?  It plays the game for you, replaces you, is that acceptable?  When does interaction end?  We always based decks around a card or group of cards (drain decks, oath), but literally the deck uses math to mull into bazaar?  It also pretty much makes everyone take half their sideboard, play 7-8 cards, 4 of which make you become an ichorid player as you throw skill out hoping to a leyline.  The ichorid match is just math in magic sleeves.  While I like math, I like magic, I like math + magic, they should never exist in a way the deck does.  The fact every game plays out the same way and the lack of decisions the ichorid player has to make are scary.  Do I dredge troll or stinkweed imp?  Troll because it mills one more card.  Simple, no debate, no decisions are ever questionable.  It's never a chance of taking risks, making big plays, or capsizing on an opponents misplay.  I had a poker shuffler before it broke, and I bet it could play ichorid just as good as 90% of the players that play it.  While trinisphere, necro, fastbond remove fun from the game, ichorid wants to make me vomit.  Not only does it remove fun from the game, not only do I know EXACTLY what the other player is going to do, not only do I know whether or not I can win it based on his graveyard, but the deck still exists.  People complained about trinisphere being unfun and taking the fun out of the format.  Imagine trinisphere as a towelette absorbing the fun out of the game.  Now ichorid would be something along the lines of a sponge.  I don't know how to fix this problem, but hitting something like serum would probably be a good start.  A ti-83 graphing calculator could play ichorid given a program, as you never have to wonder why the opponent left 2 blue untapped, or how far do you go to counter a spell.  As much as I hate fastbond + gushes, I know my opponent hasn't set up his deck to work only using that combination of cards to win.  I also know he doesn't play 4 fastbonds, and 4 cards that screw with mulligans in order to find those fastbonds. 

[Webster]

I think the format is fine. What I want for vintage will never happen. Sufficed to say, I'm content with the way things are right now; barely.

Well, now I'm curious. What is it that you would like to see happen, but never will?

Having wizards strongly support type 1 with organized play. I don't want the sorry excuse for support that is currently in place. The vintage "world championship" is a joke. Period.

The business model and other wotc 'policy' goes against much of what would be required to happen in order to get type 1 GP and PT. It's simply not realistic. However, that doesn't stop me from having my pipe dream.

[feyd]

It was Benjamin Franklin who said:
"The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will ever recieve either."
  This can be loosely associated with vintage.  Someone who wants to give up their freedom to play any/all cards in the game should stop playing this game.  You don't like these cards?  Don't you play with these very same cards you criticize?  Is this a lesson in hypocrasy or a pity trip?  Give me a break.  You think that flash is broken?  Play flash.  You think will/lotus/recall are broken?  Play GAT...which is what I think you have been playing anyway isn't it?   
    The format of vintage makes everyone sit right at the edge of their seats every game.  You never know what kind of insane play your opponent is going to play.  They never know if you will rip a card that wins you the game right then and there.  I have said before that playing vintage is like rolling dice.  Sometimes you catch 4,5,6 and sometimes you catch one twenty third.  If you want a format of slow, non-broken circumstances you should focus elsewhere than vintage. 
   Taking fundamental cards away from the vintage card pool never profits anyone in the long run.  As the vintage community has seen in the last year just because gush and flash and ichorid are popping out of the woodwork does not mean a rogue ass deck can't come in and clean house.  R/G beats, workshop aggro, non-gush storm combo, bomberman, and fish do just fine without these so called "broken" cards.  Hell most of those decks don't play a any of the cards you named as "broken/unfair" to begin with. 
   I made my friend a R/G beats deck which absolutely slaughterhoused ichorid and flash!  GAME 1!  BADOOSH!  R/G beats goes first  against flash dropping mogg fanatic.  Flash goes flash slivers, beats blocks one pings the other, plays a goyf and another beater turn two game over flash.  Fanatic works well vs ichorid too so I hear<.<  Decks having autolosses vs other decks seems like a fair deal to me.  One deck shouldn't have an advantage over all other decks in the format.  If ichorid and flash were gone then what?  Gush decks and drain decks would roll in and take over. 
   The problem with vintage is one of the problems with America: people are too willing to give up a little bit of their freedom to have the illusion of safety.  Once ichorid/flash are gone then others decks will come in and clean house and then there's a crap load of people complaing about that deck.  No problem has been solved...only a short term problem has been temporarily aleveated.  People who like to whine will shortly stop whinning because they got spoiled by getting their way and having cards restricted.  Then they start bitching about other cards and then those get restricted..before you know it the format is legacy with trinisphere (if the whiny little babies don't get that banned, too).
   Long story short: shut yer lips and play the game.  It's a coin flip/dice roll.  It's fun as hell and I wouldn't change it for the world.

[Chippo]

Vintage in my opinion is not only a war of having the best deck in town but is also a war of attrition.

The most "fun" games that you've ever played where probably not the ones where you have Jet => Dritual => Dritual => Dtutor => Will and repeat. The most interesting matches for me are those where you have to fight the small battles to win the war. You start out with a threat but it gets countered and so forth.

There is no other format that can do this like Vintage can. We can state that the same is true for Legacy but most battles are fought there over the board control. In Vintage these battles are on the board, in the graveyard and in your head. Even Jedi Mindtricking is only used as a word in Vintage 

Skill will also be part of good tournament. And good players will usually not choose the less skill intensive decks but will choose something which renders them fun and gives them a headache after a tournament.

- Chippo

[hauntedechos]

It's good to see this thread really taking off, with a lot of unput from some good players and the general public alike.

I like some of what Feyd said in terms of never being happy.  There are always going to be cards that are going to have a huge impact on the format they are in.  It doesn't have to be Will, Lotus etc, though certainly these and others have a huge impact today.  With thoes cards restricted/banned, then other cards will be abused, and they will be, and thusly create other possible problems.

I also have to agree with Steve on his sentiment that this is a Golden Age for Vintage.  We have GAT and Flash back from the dead.  That fact has given rise to Staxx viability and subsequently Shop decks (where the hell were they untill Thorn was printed?) and R/G beats has made a presence at the very least, again where was that deck before?  The meta as a whole has slowed down and creativity is up as I said above.  Look at the types of decks that are being played.  Rouge decks winning invitational tournies here in Canada, Tidespout list that didn't just try and port Tidespout into the Oath shell.  About that same deck, its also attempting to being back Pure control!! where the hell has that been in ages?

Some people complain about Fastbond and the Gush engine.  People, really, get a hold of yourselves now.  We've ALWAYS had game warping cards that have forced the format to be aware and prepared for it.  It was said above, that Gifts and Long were reigning untill Gifts got a kick in the nuts and Flash and Gush were let out of their cage.  I was personaly playing U/W/B Fish at that time and got tired of seeing "Polluted, mox, mox, Dritual...proceed to go off or position yourself for an unbeatable turn 2..pass" against Storm builds.  It's not that I hated that play, I admired the decks ability to do thoes broken things, I just wanted variety in the TYPES of decks I faced at a tourny, now I have that and I'm very pleased about it.  Releasing the cards that enabled these decks to come back and effect the format as it has, has been awesome for me for what I get out of the game.

The complaining is likened to people complaining about Ichorid just because they have to give up X amount of slots to the game.  Give me a break, you have to give up 4 slots MAIN if you play U, just so you can have Force of Will, and a further 15-17 cards to support these 4 cards, but no one complains about that.  I actually LIKE going up against an Ichorid deck these days, I like ALL of it.  The sucker punch feeling of game 1 where it's like "oh you bastard, lol, ok on to game 2 punk and let's rock".  I also don't mind having 4 Leylines in my SB, because it makes Will based/dependant/accelerated decks deal with Lines or at least not feel as comfortable.  Will is another card on the suggested list and while I can value how it would force Storm combo players to be MUCH more skill intensive, it would also shut out many people who would like to gain entry into Storm combo out.  It would also kill Storm Combo I feel, as Duress effects would really be MUCH more painfull and potentially wreck games on turn 1.  I think of Will like I think of Tinker, it's another out.  Tinker > DSC is a win condition all on it's own, and casting Will is pretty much the same thing only it plays out differently.  But come on people, we have Chant, Abeyance, Arcane Lab, Rule of Law, leylines, Tormod's and Force of Will to keep yard/Will abusing combo in check.

Removing cards from the playable list is only going to create more problems.  this game has evolved, and as it has cards have been offset by other cards and continued on and on, removing one or more from the list is like taking mice out of the grasslands food chain people, think about it. The whole format would go into upheaval as some players quit outright, others scramble to figure out how to re-build the deck they loved (looking at people who still play with Gifts Ungiven post restriction) or what decks are simply dead.  Also banning cards like Ancestral and Black Lotus (while I welcome it so I can buy them finally at a cheap, cheap price, knowing that the horrible decision will be undone) would send the price for power into chaos.  As I said in an above post, you have a choice of what cards to play based on what you feel is fair to play against other people (if you are really somehow THAT considerate in tourny play), and fighting the other popular cards that you hate is also easily done.

I've recently been playing/tweaking a list that sits inbetween Beckers SuperLong offering and his Tropical storm list.  it's not Uber broken like Long lists, it has Fastbond in it, but it's not Fastbond.Dec it's a pretty damn fair combo deck really.  It has bad matchups, it has decent matchups and it has blowout matches.  In fact the only thing that is "unfair" about it, is the sheer amount of protection it has, but NO ONE is complaining about unrestricted Misdirections and Force of Wills are they?  No they aren't because we pretty much ALL use the damn things and thusly its ok.  Well aside from abusing U people, we aren't ALL going to play the same archtype and each archtype has the cards it chooses to abuse.  ichorid may seem like a braindead deck, but at least it's not following the herd and abusing U control cards.

I think that in the end, we're all going to  have to do what Feyd suggested, shut our mouths and play the game.  The game appeals to many different people for many different reasons and thusly we will never agree 100% as Vintage Format players on "the" cards to ban/restrict and that which is ok.  Some people love the fact that a full yard with Will garuntees the game, becasue winning is what they love most about Magic.  Others will continue to play Fish/Landstill/TMWA because they love interaction and shutting down $500 dollar cards with $20 dollar cards.

[wiley]

Speaking as someone who has played a large gambit of the current vintage decks (EmptyGush, GAT, Flash, TMWA, various Fish, and currently Ichorid [I think some people will stop reading here], as well as testing TurboGush) I have to say that the current format is absolutely amazing.  I remember in 2000 when I first started playing magic and played a single match of vintage, both games the opponent got out first turn bargain and stomped me right then and there, that wasn't mush fun.

Today, however, even with beasts like Ichorid and Flash running around, there is still a huge amount of interaction.  The people I see cry out the most against any one deck, complaining that it has no skill level to it, or that there is no interaction in it, are ususally people who have never tried the deck out and so don't know A) What it's true gameplan is/all the ways it can achieve this and B)The best, most effective ways to disrupt this.

Vintage in the last few years has become a game of almost pure "Jedi Mindtrickery" in that you definitely try to throw your opponent off the mark with his disruption.  You bait his counters, make FoF and Gift choices that are almost imposible to be out of your favor.  You make facial gestures to make them believe that you have nothing when you have it all or vice versa.  The battlefield for vintage is in every zone of the game and it rewards people who can think of it like that.

There are some cards that make the game unfun (trinishphere mostly) but they are all currently restricted.  I personally love what gush has done to the format.  It has actually slowed it down, now like never before I feel like there is an actual turn after turn one, whereas trini days and long days both took that feeling and threw it out the window.

Yes, it is true that there is very little new change happening in vintage as far as viable deck are concerned.  But remember what this format is about, I get to play with all the cards I own.  Out of ten thousand unique cards how many can actually make the cut into one of my 75 card decks?  Not to mention that with the internet and strong boards like TMD, the disemination of information allows for critical thinking on decks to be taken at an amazing pace.  You have a think tank of 100 people picking apart a deck within two hours of it being posted.  Far far more if its an article on SCG or Eternal Magic.

As for this being a luck based format, I don't think that is true for any deck currently played.  Every deck in the top teirs all maximize their chance to get their amazing hands, it is stupid to do otherwise.  Every deck among those can lose to the amazing hand of some other top deck.  This is true in every format, however it is more obvious in vintage due to the quality of those hands (remember every card in magic.  It makes sense that the quality is more than say, standard or extended.).  In my opinion vintage is just as balanced as any other format in magic, it just as a much higher quality pool of cards to pull from.

[rant]And just to defend Ichorid on the "most skilless deck" opinion, it runs some of the mose skill intensive cards in the game: Bazaar and Therapy.  Not to mention that it requires a good head to bait counters to force through a dread return, and to bait a crypt activation before the opponent needs to do it.  It plays less spells, but it requires intense knowledge of the rules in order to govern the triggers involved with narco, dredge, ichorid, and BfB.  I personally think of Ichorid as my two year old child.  It will take every opportunity to get you in trouble or hurt itself unless you take it by the hand and guide it through every step.  That is a very draining experience for an 8 round tourney.[/end randt]

That said, flash's first turn "oop's I just one a vintage game" hands are no different than GAT's first turn fast bond to gush to timewalk hands, or stax's first turn trini hands, of Ichorids first turn bazaar + leline + chalice hands.  Basically there are a lot of hands that make winning extremely hard for the opponent, but isn't that what a match is supposed to be a bout.  You entered a tournament, not a casual friendlies game.

[Methuselahn]

It's not the format that needs changing.  The list is fine.  It's the tournaments.  I've watched the monthly tournaments in MN slowly dry up in the span of seven years.  It's not because Flash can win the game on turn whatever or because Bazaar draws cards for no mana.  It's the prizes. 

Moxen are bad, people.  It's these stupid, overpriced pieces of cardboard that we can just proxy anyway.   They are bad tournament prizes.

I can't look my friend straight in the eyes and tell him to pay 25 dollars to play in a tournament that requires so much intimate knowledge to play in, just to win something he could proxy.  Oh but wait!  He could still come close and get 2nd!  Second place doesn't get you on the top-heavy side of the prize winnings.  (Okay, so most people just split anyway (doesn't that prove my point further that moxen suck!?))

Fact: paying anything over ten bucks to play in a tourny that's so inherently random and broken is dumb.

Top-heavy tournaments force you to play out a Top8, which are too long.  As asinine as it is to play in Mox tournaments, it's even worse to play in such where you lose once and you're out.  Therefore, top8s are required.  Straight Swiss style tournaments with a more attractive breakdown of prizes still let you play your favorite format while keeping entry fees at whatever you want them to be.

A TO could easily coordinate a 5 dollar tournament which would not only run a shorter amount of time (swiss style) but would likely attract players that are not willing to donate the 25$ necessary to support garbage power cards.  Seriously, do TO's make it that high because people demand to either win 400$ worth of cardboard or walk away with nothing?  No. It's that high because thats how much jewelry costs.

Break precedent.  Have cash payouts and swiss tournaments.

Have you ever seen a tournament report that goes like this?
I drew the nuts and won this match 2-0
I won this match 2-1
I won this match 2-0
ID
ID
I win a match
we split.

There's fame and glory for you right there.

More than once have I seen players in the other bracket of a top8 talk it out amongst themselves and then decide who's going to take the win because they've analyzed the upcoming matchup.   This is dirty top8ing, imo.  Not so much with Swiss.

Ask yourself, has Vintage tournament attendance in your area increased 100% even in the last THREE years?  if you can honestly say yes, then ignore the above.

[Rock Lee]

said alot.

I don't know any location that could boast a 100% increase in tournament attendance in any format. Magic is cyclical both in card pool but also player base.

I personally know New England is a Mecca for Vintage. Every month there are 2 or 3, 30+ player tournaments run by some of the most capable, eager, and sincere TO's I've ever heard of. They all have a passion for the format that normally is only found in the player-base.

So far as prizes being Moxen. I love the Moxen rewards versus packs/cash. Moxen let you build towards owning Power, which enables you to attend Gencon, the true determinate of the Best of the Best. Myself and my Teammate make a goal of earning a set of Power a year so an additional member can attend Gencon the following year. It sharpens our game and gives us the drive and incentive to innovate and analyze beyond the norm. If we were going out every other weekend to earn 300 bucks (or per your suggestion, even less), we would probably just work an extra day of work. The tangible allure is huge.

My suggestion the Vintage as a whole would be along the lines of Webster's Pipe Dream of greater support from Vintage. If Wizards could figure out a way to profit from the Vintage Community, (reprinting power, allowing purchased sanctioned proxies, etc.) then  I feel a Vintage Pro Tour, Vintage Invitational, and Vintage Limited could become viable archetypes. In the very least, a 2nd or 3rd Sanctioned Vintage Event would be hot.

So far as splitting in the top 8. The only times I prefer splitting is when there is an enormous gap between 1st and 2nd so far as prizes are concerned. My teammate often encourages my splitting due to statistical calculated risk analysis. I prefer to duke it out to have a victor, one way or another. Remember splitting requires consent from all players involved, so show your determinism to play it out and go do it! =P

[hauntedechos]

@ RockLee and others who dream of a day when Wizards ups it's contribution.

I know that Wizards is a business and it's primary concern is money, after wich comes keeping the buyers happy with a solid product.  That said, I really have to agree with both Rock and others on this matter, Vintage players shell out stupid amounts of cash, and if they have good paying jobs, even go so far as to shell out for Power.  Of course this does not go into Wizards pocket, but it shows an incredible dedication to thier product.  Further to that, many Vintage players buy 1-3 box of boosters per release, which does go into Wizards pocket as well as being on par with thier supported type 2 and blah blah blah formats.  That being said, it would be nice to be honestly recognized and supported for once.  Type 2 for me is boring and way to slow for me to stay awake.  It's nice to have the pro tours and the chance for cash earnings etc etc, but really it's not worth the outright boredom of the format.

This brings us back to the actual point of this thread:  If you water down the power levels and enablers, you are slowly killing off decks and therefore the amount of people willing to continue to play/shell out for Vintage, which is pretty much based on ourselves to keep it alive, Wizards sure as hell isn't going to do it.

[meadbert]

Skill & Ichorid
Skill in magic can be broken down into some categories:
1: Metagaming your deck  / sideboard construction
2:  Sideboarding
3:  Mulliganning
4:  Play Skill

I concede that Mulliganing in Ichorid is fairly simple since you go for Bazaar.  That said, I know many players with experience with the deck who cannot resist the urge to keep certain non-Bazaar hands and thus lose matches.

Constructing Ichorid's sideboard is more important and more difficult than just about any other deck in the format.  First you must anticipate which hate you are likely to see.  Second, you are generally going to be bringing in most of your board in most matches post board.  Rather than thinking 4 cards for Stax, 4 card for Long you are forced to consider how each card will impact your matchup with many decks.

Sideboarding in Ichorid is again far more difficult than any other deck is simply because you generally have to pick which 13-15 cards you are going to pull out.  This is never easy

Finally there is play skill.  Ichorid is one of the most skill intensive decks in the format.  Every turn you activate Bazaar and must decide which cards to pitch.  This is more skill intensive than Brainstorming every turn, because with Brainstorm you at least know which cards are on top when you are done.  With Ichorid you don't know what you are going to draw/dredge into next turn.
Cabal Therapy is the most important disruption that Ichorid plays and it is the most skill intensive unrestricted card in the format.  Making optimal decisions when you know all information is much easier than making optimal decisions with only partial information.  Picking optimal Gifts piles may be hard, but at least you know which 60 cards are in your deck.  Playing Cabal Therapy is much harder and very skill intensive.
Bridge from Below can be a skill intensive card because you must be very careful about which creatures you attack with and how you block lest you lose your bridges.

The biggest problem with Ichorid is its power.
Ichorid is just really, really good.

When does interaction end? 

Ichorid is highly interactive.  It just turns out that Ichorid interacts with its opponents before they interact with it.  If not, Flash and Long would tear Ichorid up since those decks are faster.  Ichorid is the better decks and devestates's its opponent first in game 1, by packing 4 turn 0 disruption cards and 8 turn 1 disruption cards.  Saying Ichorid is not interactive is the standard response from Blue Based Control players who are used to winning games because they have Force of Will and Mana Drain.  Yes, blue can use counterspells to target every spell and they can bounce anything, and yes it is fair for one deck in the format to dodge counter magic and beat blue based control.

We always based decks around a card or group of cards (drain decks, oath), but literally the deck uses math to mull into bazaar?

Ichorid uses 4 Bazaars and 4 Serum Powders to mulligan into Bazaar just like Blue based Combo/Control uses 14 blue mana sources to mulligan into a blue mana source which incidently it needs even more than Ichorid needs Bazaar.

It also pretty much makes everyone take half their sideboard, play 7-8 cards, 4 of which make you become an ichorid player as you throw skill out hoping to a leyline.

Who is everyone?
I run 4 sideboard cards in Uba Stax (Leyline) and they double as Flash/Ichorid hate.  I have basiclaly devoted 2 card in my board to Ichorid.  Powder Kegs and other cards hit Ichorid too, but they have plenty of other uses and would be in there without Ichorid.
Long can run 4 Leyline of the Void and do just fine.  Again Leyline doubles against Flash and Ichorid.
Deez Naughts decks which run Strip, Wastes, and Needle and Crypt in the main only need to add a few cards.
There is basically one archetype that needs 7-8 cards in the board and that is Blue Based control.  Blue based Combo/Control players get very upset with Ichorid because they are used to playing the best deck and they hate it when someone else is playing a better deck and this forces the Blue Based Combo/Control player to actually construct a sideboard to address this one bad matchup.
As Long as Misdirection and Red Elemental Blast are showing up in maindecks and Leylines are not then it is clear to me that Blue Based Combo/Control defines the format and Ichorid is one of the decks holding the dominant archetype in check.

The fact every game plays out the same way and the lack of decisions the ichorid player has to make are scary.

Deciding what to name with Cabal Therapy and deciding how to discard to Bazaar are decisions that show up frequently.  If you are playing a deck with no maindeck answer to Ichorid then you just lose game 1.  You may add hate in game 1 in the form of Pithing Needles, you may hope not to play Ichorid or you may rely on your sideboard.  There are a host of things that can go wrong in game 1.  Your opponent can combo out in your face.  Waste can limit you to one Bazaar activation and heavy aggro with creatures hitting the yard can beat.  Against a Blue Based Control deck with no answer game 1 will usually play out the same way since your opponent has no answers.  Just as I have no Sympathy for Blue Based Combo/Control players who run 0 main deck Hurkles or Rebuild and lose to Stax, I also have no sympathy for those to lose to Ichorid because they fail to run a single card that hates out Ichorid in their main.  You, the Blue Based Control player, made the decision to concede match 1 in rounds against Ichorid.

Do I dredge troll or stinkweed imp?  Troll because it mills one more card.  Simple, no debate, no decisions are ever questionable.

There are many situations where you must decide whether to dredge Thug (hardcast), Troll or Darkblast.  Also, there are several cases where it is better to draw than to dredge such as when you cannot win this turn and know you can win next turn and you really just want to see a Chalice or an Unmask.  Compare this to Blue Based Combo/Control's decisions of:
Do I draw for my draw phase or do I ... draw for my draw phase?

I don't know how to fix this problem, but hitting something like serum would probably be a good start. 

If Ichorid needs to be hit with a restriction I agree that it is Serum Powder that should go.  Uncounterable, one-sided, free draw 7s that  can be played on turn 0 are just REALLY good.  Any deck that wants to run 4 Serum Powder is going to be doing something nasty to its opponent on turn 1 whether it is find Bazaar, Trinisphere or a turn 1 win.

you never have to wonder why the opponent left 2 blue untapped

Mana Drain can target Dread Return. 
Many folks believe that Blue Based Control is difficult to play since you must remember to Brainstorm before you crack your fetchland, or after your opponent Duresses you, and you must remember to keep  available so you can use or bluff Mana Drain.  Most difficult is to decide which spell to counter that is much easier than deciding what to name with a blind Cabal Therapy.
I still contend that activating Bazaar every turn is more skill intensive than all the Brainstorm tricks that Blue Based Combo/Control goes through.

All of this said there are plenty of reasons that Ichorid is bad.  Although most games should be fun, there are plenty of unfun games.  Reasons include:
1)  Ichorid mulligans to oblivion.  This is not a fun way for your opponent to win.
2)  Opponent mulls to oblivion post board trying to find Needle or Leyline.  This should only happen 3% of the time if your opponent runs 4 Leyline and 4 Needle, so it is not any more common than most decks screwing up.  Your bottom 3% of hands are almost always going to lose you the game.
3)  You have no maindeck hate and Ichorid just rolls over you game 1.  I have little sympathy here as packing no maindeck hate was your decision.  Essentially you are the one who decided to concede your game 1 to Ichorid.  That does not make this game any more fun, but it is unfair to blame the Ichorid deck which did what it was supposed to do (win), and not blame the opponent for essentially concedingg the match by having no answer to Ichorid.  Add a token Planar Void to your deck and you can make this game interesting.
4)  Opponent opens with uber-hate.  I am not sure that I would count 2xLeyline as uber-hate, but Turn 1 Leyline + Needle is a lot.
5)  Who is on the play matters a ton in Ichorid matchups.  This is because Unmask, Chalice of the Void and Pithing Needle are all far better when played on the play than when played on the draw.

[madmanmike25]

Who is on the play matters a ton in Ichorid matchups.

This is a HUGE understatement imo.  Any deck that goes first has an advantage(not necessarily game-winning);  hence the reason you rarely ever hear your opponent say "I choose to draw" after winning the die roll. 

Also, I'm seeing a ton of Ichorid hate.  I for one like the deck, even though I am still fairly new to it(both playing with and against).  There are plenty of decisions I have found that are not just as simple as choosing to dredge Troll since he dredges the most.

And yes, I do own Mana Drains(5 to be precise) and I still like Ichorid.  What a fun deck.

However, decks which involve more luck then skill always seems to end up doing worse then the decks which rewards good play  This somewhat evens out the whole problem, but still - Getting blown out consistently just because your opponent drew flash, land, mox, hulk, Pact, Pact is not fun.

I agree 100% with the bolded statement.  I hope that remains true.

But let's be real, losing is never truly 'fun'.  I like good games and all, but I usually have more fun when I win.  That's just me I suppose, but I am gracious in defeat however.  I hate losing to a turn 1 Tinker->DSC just as much as I hate losing to Flash->Hulk->Slivers.  To be honest, Flash can have a tough time on the draw against a host of staple cards in Vintage decks.  People just tend to focus on the turn 1 double protected wins..and those dont' always happen nor are they the norm.  Using the Pacts SHOULD have a high risk/return imo.

I've identified 3 restricted cards that I feel create more hate toward vintage than love:

Fastbond (with unrestricted Gush)
Necropotence
Trinisphere

These 3 cards contribute to more "I can't lose no matter what games" than Lotus, Ancestral, and Will because singlehandedly they win games and are often times playable on turn 1, do to the format's mana acceleration. These "I can't lose" cards remove interaction from the game, creating games and matches that are won and lost purely on luck and can have nothing at all to do with skill

Vintage decks can run Fastbond again(with success).  I have no problem with that whatsoever.  Ever have an opponent not be able to play land because he was at a low life total?  It happens.  Is Fastbond restricted for a reason?  You betcha.

Necro?  I have no particular hate for that card either.  At least you have to pass the turn before you win.

Trini I can somewhat understand.  A turn 1 Trini doesn't always win you the game though, especially when playing against another workshop deck.  I once fell prey to the belief that it would always win, and kept sub-par hands solely because I could play the dreaded 3-ball.  I don't make that mistake anymore.


How much skill is involved when my opponent topdecks/tutors Yawgmoth's Will?  I don't remember being offered any 'interaction' in games where that happened.  And yet I feel Vintage would suffer if this card was banned.  Because what would be next?  And don't kid yourself, there WOULD be a next.

Luck will ALWAYS be a part of the game.  It begins with the die roll.  Some games my opponent wouldn't have been able to go broken if only I had been the one to start.  So it goes...I say let Vintage decks do what they do best, that's what separates it from Legacy.  I feel that Vintage is doing just fine right now and I wouldn't change anything, not even restrict Merchant Scroll.  Aren't opinions grand?

[oneofchaos]

A lot of stuff

Ichorid may take skill to build but that's like saying hey I built a highly complex PC but now any person can use it.  Once the decklist is on paper, your job is done and the deck picks up it's shift.  Also, bridge causes a lot of gameplay errors just due to the fact enchantments in the graveyard shouldn't be doing things.  You say drain decks go upkeep draw or draw?  How about mystical/vampiric tutor?  Dark confidant?  Top in bomberman?  You also say cabal therapy takes skill.  I'll argue since there are over 5000 cards in magic, you've got a lot of options.  However you never end up naming enduring ideal or dragonstorm.  Why?  They don't exist in vintage.  Ichorid players may be smart (I know a good plently), and they are also well read on the meta.  Preparing for a meta with ichorid I do have respect for the players since there are a lot of decisions and no right ones either.  However once that game begins, the deck is going on cruise control.

Edit:

On mulliganing into blue lands, that's not nearly the same arguement as bazaars.  I've won games without blue lands, although not so often.  But the thing is, if your playing red aggro with a splash of green you don't mull into red mana.  You know your deck is reliant on red mana, and thus thats how you built it.  Blue decks all the same have around 15 mana sources which involve getting you the color you need. 

[meadbert]

[You say drain decks go upkeep draw or draw?  How about mystical/vampiric tutor?  Dark confidant?  Top in bomberman? 

I was comparing draw phase to draw phase.  None of these can be played or activated prior to your draw in your draw phase. 
The Ichorid player must decide which card to dredge or whether to dredge at all.  The blue based control player has no decision until after he or she has drawn.  It is fairly rare for blue based control to do anything during their draw phase.  The most common play I can think of is when Tangle Wire is out and they floated mana from their upkeep phase to play an instant speed spell which they top decked.

If you want to address the upkeep phase that is fine.  Ichorid has an upkeep phase which is far more complicated than blue based control's upkeep phase.

[Webster]

Ichorid may take skill to build but that's like saying hey I built a highly complex PC but now any person can use it.  Once the decklist is on paper, your job is done and the deck picks up it's shift.  Also, bridge causes a lot of gameplay errors just due to the fact enchantments in the graveyard shouldn't be doing things.  You say drain decks go upkeep draw or draw?  How about mystical/vampiric tutor?  Dark confidant?  Top in bomberman?  You also say cabal therapy takes skill.  I'll argue since there are over 5000 cards in magic, you've got a lot of options.  However you never end up naming enduring ideal or dragonstorm.  Why?  They don't exist in vintage.  Ichorid players may be smart (I know a good plently), and they are also well read on the meta.  Preparing for a meta with ichorid I do have respect for the players since there are a lot of decisions and no right ones either.  However once that game begins, the deck is going on cruise control.

Edit:

On mulliganing into blue lands, that's not nearly the same arguement as bazaars.  I've won games without blue lands, although not so often.  But the thing is, if your playing red aggro with a splash of green you don't mull into red mana.  You know your deck is reliant on red mana, and thus thats how you built it.  Blue decks all the same have around 15 mana sources which involve getting you the color you need. 

There are just so many responses that I have to this post that it's almost funny.

Once the decklist is on paper, your job is done and the deck picks up it's shift.

Ichorid by no means plays itself.

Also, bridge causes a lot of gameplay errors just due to the fact enchantments in the graveyard shouldn't be doing things.

Cards in graveyards have been 'doing things' since alpha; example: nether shadow. I would hope that since odyssey block, people have been accustomed to knowing that cards function in the graveyard with regularity.

You also say cabal therapy takes skill.  I'll argue since there are over 5000 cards in magic, you've got a lot of options.  However you never end up naming enduring ideal or dragonstorm.  Why?  They don't exist in vintage.

Cabal therapy one of the true measures of skill. Being able to consistantly name the correct card shows a knowledge of a specific deck, matchup, and understanding of the gamestate. The fact that there are over 5,000 possibilities is irrelevant. Being able to consistantly name the one card in 2-5 that matters is a lot more difficult than it would seem.


I suggest that before anyone goes on a rampage bashing ichorid for being a deck that requires very little from its pilot, go play ichorid in a 6 round swiss, top 8, and then tell me your opinion afterwards.

[DarkfnTemplar]

While I want to agree with you, I'm living proof that you don't need a lot of skill. While I think a lot of people don't give me enough credit, I have always felt like the least talented player in any major t8. Then again, the lists I ran were huge meta game predictions and thats were I think the wins came from. So do I think that an Ichorid players needs a good sense of the metagame and deck building? Yes. Does he have to be Finkel? No, not even close.
P.S. I don't want to cut down on top Ichorid players like Meadbert or Flux, but this shouldn't even be debated about anymore.

Also, Im going to say that the format is the healthiest it has ever been since I started vintage. Look at the top 8's and the playable decks. The only deck that I would consider top tier is GAT. Everything else is tier 2 or lower but not by much. Only its consistency has it outranked everything else. Even Shop, Oath, stax, and fish have made comebacks while long has really fallen off its former pedestal (Its still top tier, but super ong has yet to totally prove itself. Not that the others haven't because of the lack of huge tournies).