Hidden treasures for Vintage (deck ideas, good cards, combos)?

[Everrid1234]

Hi,

does anyone have an idea if there are some cards out there which are not often played but tend to be strong, but are still "unknown"?
Or any combos which are relatively easy to cast/ bring together, maybe even playable in an artifact deck or with the colors blue and black? The lesser the needed parts, the better. If the parts are at least effective on their own its much better.
Or any basically newer deck idea? Or a really modified Tier1 deck? Or just a nice idea for an aggro or control deck with a new route to win with lots of the standard cards but some essential changes?

Maybe we can do some brainstorming here....

If you post here, it's no longer hidden, that's clear! But maybe someone likes to share ideas or even a complete decklist!

[hauntedechos]

I think there are a tonne of viable combos and cards that can be played.  The real trick is finding these cards and combos and justifying why one would play them over exsisting "optimal" choices.  For instance, I used to have a fast list for a combo deck that ran 4Retrivers, diciple of the vault and ashnods alter (chosen over the ironworks because of the casting cost and that only creatures were being sacked anyways).  In the end, it was dropped because of the fact that it was slower than all combo decks and required 4 pieces.  There was another person who had a similar list as mine, but in the end I think he/she dropped it as well.

I love fact or fiction.  I run it in my SuperLong list due to staying in 5 proxy limit because I don't own twister.  however I find that the card accelerates the Threshold factor for Cabal Ritual and thusly allows me to "go off" sooner becaue of the huge boost that ritual goves me.  I'm saying this as an example of optimal cards to run, because many have already told me they feel it's a horrible card when compared to running a fourth Ponder, Repeal, or basicly anything other than Fact.

Still I hope that someone out there can come up with some ideas/cards for you to enjoy and talk about.

As a last thought, this thread really should be in Improvement, as nice as the thread topic is.

cheers
Mike

[ErkBek]

Counterbalance Top is relatively unexplored for vintage. The combo is ridiculously powerful against all non-Shop decks. I think that it's best used in a big mana, blue scroll frame, something like this

mana 23
5 Mox
1 Lotus
1 Ring
1 Academy
4 Usea
3 Island
8 Fetchlands

Control 15
4 FoW
4 Counterbalance
4 Duress/Thoughtseize
2 Mana Drain
1 Echoing Truth

Draw/Good 15
4 BS
3 Top
2 Scroll
1 VT
1 DT
1 MT
1 Ancestral
1 Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will

Kill 2
1 Tinker
1 Plat

There is still 5 open spaces in this frame to toy around with. Basically, you need a way to deal with a fast creature rush so probably something like Smother or another bounce spell. 3 Tarmogoyfs might be a solid addition since Goyf can be a fast clock with Counterbalance out and can muck up the ground. I ran Confidants and a Sower of Temptation in these 5 slots, they were good but I felt something might just work better.

Like other Scroll based decks, this can just go off with Yawg Will. Sensei's Top is great just to fix your draws after one of the many shuffle effects. Since you've got big mana, it's not hard to find 1 to invest to fix your draws. I stopped working on the deck basically cause I had lost interest in it, though it was testing well.

-------

Intuition Loam/Toolbox is another archetype that's relatively unexplored as well. On it's own, Intuition based decks tend to be a little slow and tend not to run very many 1-costers (typically all you run is Sol Ring, Brainstorms, and Ancestral) so Chalice @1 is an option too. Here are some potential things you can Intuition for:

Loam
LOA (Loam fills your hand)
Bazaar (Loam gives you stuff to pitch)
Strip Mine
Academy Ruins
AK (obv)
Deep Analysis
Ancient Grudge
Cabal Therapy
Lava Dart
(ray or revelation, post board)

or Set up a Yawg Will

Meadbert has a list for an Intuition based Turbo Land deck in the Improvement Forum, which might just be better. I think an Intuition Toolbox deck could become a premier control deck since Intuition enables some very broken plays.

------------

Magus of the Future / Future Sight - both of these are ridiculously powerful on their own.

[sorcutt]

Candelabra of Tawnos and Transmute Artifact are both cards that I've been trying to do something with for years.  The thing is they're really fun cards but they really aren't fast enough in today's meta.  Let me know if anyone has a way to break them effectively.

[Everrid1234]

Yes, more ideas please! What about some totally new ideas?

Some of my ideas (maybe crap):

-Some enchantment-heavy lock-deck with Opalescence-Kill with the "best" enchantments available (e.g. Oath, Energy Flux main, Hoofprints of the Stag, Genju of the Cedars)
-some deck abusing Helm of Awakening
-some deck using Crucible/Life from the Loam/Vinelasher Kudzu/Dryad/Horn of Greed/Fastbond/Zuran Orb/
Exploration AND some hate

I know it is nearly impossible to find something strong what is still unexplored, but let's see.

[GrandpaBelcher]

I've been trying to make Workshop-Helm of Awakening-Egg combo for a while.  It might work now that Cloud Key exists.

Workshop -> Cloud Key
Ancient Tomb -> break a bunch of Eggs (Darkwater, Mossfire, Skycloud, etc.), draw your deck, play Tendrils or multiple Grapeshots.

Seems almost viable (Belcher-esque, perhaps).  It's probably better without Workshops, though, as they can't activate Eggs to start the combo.

Counterbalance and Top are really unexplored though.  MonoBlue CounterTop with Guile!   

[daikunzeon]

in our meta. counterbalance/top is used in the shell of a u/r landstill
0 cc spells countered by lands
1 cc spells countered by the top activation
2 cc spells countered by most 2cc spells that landstill has
3 cc spells few and far in between spells (COW, dead/gone)
then higher cc spells are countered by FOW, drains etc.

but with that route that means no null rod maindeck.

[xycsoscyx]

With the unrestriction of Voltaic Key, I think a Shop Combo deck could be viable.  Big mana with things like Monoliths, Gilded Lotus, etc, keep untapping, Hurkylls Recall yourself (with a lot of mana floating), play them all again, etc, then storm out.

[Twaun007]

4x Voltaic Keys and Door to Nothingness

[Everrid1234]

Ok, for the Shop-Combodecks or Door to Nothingness (nice card): What could be played in such a deck to have a nice draw to draw into the winning conditions? Is there some artifact which enables making colored mana out of colorless sources? At least you could untap Gilded by Voltaic Key, but I doubt this would give you the needed mana.

Regard Ring of the Brighthearth.

[dicemanx]

I am planning to re-examine three ideas in the near future:

1) Eureka + Show and Tell + Elvish Piper (or Oath) + Eladamri's Vineyard + Magus of the Vineyard + 4 Ancient Tomb + 4 Sylvan Library + Titans/DSC/Triskelion/Duplicant

2) Eureka + Sneak Attack + Oath + Survival of the Fittest + Penumbra Wurm/Symbiotic Wurm/Verdant Force (Skull.dec v2.0)

3) Metalworker + Staff + 4 Mindslaver + Welder + Time Vault + Reliquat + Transmute Artifact/Tinker (HyperMUD v2.0)

Because of the sudden tilt towards aggro-control away from fast combo, these ideas could be viable. Fun stuff.

[Twaun007]

Ok, for the Shop-Combodecks or Door to Nothingness (nice card): What could be played in such a deck to have a nice draw to draw into the winning conditions? Is there some artifact which enables making colored mana out of colorless sources?

Composite Golem, Transmutate Artifact, Giulded Lotus, Copy Artifact, Metal Worker, Staff of Domination.

They can all be used as a key to unlock the combo. It is just that there are better cards that are more at sufficient at the combo role such as Dark Ritual and Tendrils of Agony.

Another type of deck that I have been looking at is the exploration/fastbond Fathom Seer combo. It seems like it is based in unexplored territory.

[Harlequin]

This is where I left off my Pure Shop Combo deck:

4 Workshops
3 City of Traitors
4 Anceint Tombs
1 Tolarian Acad
2 Seat of the Synod
2 Academy Ruins
8 Mox, Lotus, Mana Crypt, Sol Ring

4 Metal Workers
3 Basalt Monolith

4 Staff of Domination
3 Sensie's Divining Top
3 Timevault
1 Goblin Cannon
1 Pentavus

4 Rings of the Brighthearth
2 Voltaic Key
1 Tinker
2 Well of Knowledge
1 Memory Jar

3 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Sphere of Resisance
1 Tinisphere

/////////////////////

Basic Combos are:

Worker, Staff - 3 artifacts in hand, and a turn for worker to become un-sick
Worker, Staff, Rings - 2 artifacts in hand, and a turn for worker to become un-sick
Basault, Rings, Staff - mana kick-start
Basault, Rings, Top - mana kick-start
Basault, Rings, Well of knoweldge - mana and a turn
Timevault, Rings - mana, and a turn
Timevault, Rings, Voltatic Key - mana (no turn needed)

It had amazing turn2 win stats.  like insane... turn 2 I WIN!  But a few well placed counters, bounce, or artifact removeal cards made the deck not as viable as I would have liked.

[Everrid1234]

Ok, for the Shop-Combodecks or Door to Nothingness (nice card): What could be played in such a deck to have a nice draw to draw into the winning conditions? Is there some artifact which enables making colored mana out of colorless sources?

Composite Golem, Transmutate Artifact, Giulded Lotus, Copy Artifact, Metal Worker, Staff of Domination.

They can all be used as a key to unlock the combo. It is just that there are better cards that are more at sufficient at the combo role such as Dark Ritual and Tendrils of Agony.

Another type of deck that I have been looking at is the exploration/fastbond Fathom Seer combo. It seems like it is based in unexplored territory.

The Golem is nice, didn't know him. Anyways, such combos tend to be very fragile. But maybe we find something playable with not so many pieces and some nice draw/tutoring to find these.

I still find this enchantment deck idea interesting.

Opalescence, Enchantresses, Moat/Crackdown/Propaganda, Birds of Paradise etc, Energy Flux, Serras Sanctum, Gaeas Cradle (?), Story Circle, maybe some lifegain and of course some fast hate . More draw in form of Survival/Squee/Bazaar.

Does anyone know really strong enchantments which would fit in here? This kind of deck tends to be too slow, i know. I really have no good idea how to accelerate an enchantment deck....


Harlequin, the deck looks quite cool! I like the lots of combos and the huge possible draw.

[Twaun007]

In the Eye of Chaos is house!

[ashiXIII]

Time Vault + Mizzium Transreliquat is a too card infinte turn combo that doesn't cost very much mana to get going. It also seems to be largely unexplored in Vintage, and might be a viable archetype, possibly in a Workshop shell, but also possibly in something with more protection. (read: U/B)

[Twaun007]

Another card combo that I have been trying to explore is Umbilicus/Boold Clock in a welderless stax deck. Think about it....Umbilicus, Smokestack, Tangle Wire. Bounce sack tap.....
Also, the card Suppression Field might be a possibility in this format filled with activated abilities.

[Everrid1234]

Umbilicus/Blood Clock are a bit weak imo if you don't have something nice to return with a comes into play effect.

How could I forget In the Eye of Chaos, thanks. Suppression Field looks good, at least as a SB card.

[SonataOfTheCathedral]

Sneaky-Go concepts are completely untested I bet.

Counterbalance Top is probably the most successful in other formats but never made a dent in Vintage.

Cephalid Illusionist has never been done yet. It's fairly stable.

Aluren has a ton of potential imo. Since it is a combo that is focussed around creatures.

Dragonstorm...lol

[Pyromaniac]

Everrid: Dovescape? That makes sure your opponent doesn't screw you over with random bounce spells anymore and if played correclt, doesn't affect you at all.

[Everrid1234]

How does Dovescape not affect me? If I want to continue playing spells I just can't.

[dicemanx]

Dovescape has some interesting potential with Propaganda + Ghostly Prison + Boseiju along with Eureka/Show and Tell and Bazaar + Replenish. The Boseijus are nice in forcing through Eureka/Replenish and not having your spells countered by Dovescape.

[Ulthrion]

I'm just a beginning Vintage player, but I've always had a soft spot for Ray of Erasure. It attacks topdeck tutors quite efficiently, and it prevents people from hiding cards on the top of their libraries with brainstorm (especially nice when coupled with duress). It's probably much too narrow, but I kind of hoped/expected to see it in a rogue build somewhere because at the very least it cantrips, so it's never truely dead.

[Smmenen]

Culling the Weak is the most insane card that will never have a home.  The constraint of 60 cards and 4 cards per card make this card too inconsistent to ever work, but it's completely insane from an objective perspective. 

[vartemis]

I would love to bust out Mindslicer then cast a Diabolic intent for a Haunting Echoes.

j

[Philatio]

Culling the Weak is the most insane card that will never have a home.  The constraint of 60 cards and 4 cards per card make this card too inconsistent to ever work, but it's completely insane from an objective perspective. 

no way.  Songs of the Damned has a leg up on that card - I mean what you said is also tre but more so for SotD.  One mana often nets you seven mana in the right deck, but alas, it'll never have the right home. 

[Smmenen]

Culling the Weak is the most insane card that will never have a home.  The constraint of 60 cards and 4 cards per card make this card too inconsistent to ever work, but it's completely insane from an objective perspective. 

no way.  Songs of the Damned has a leg up on that card - I mean what you said is also tre but more so for SotD.  One mana often nets you seven mana in the right deck, but alas, it'll never have the right home. 

Not even close.   Songs of the Damned can't fuel a turn one storm kill without some serious shenanigans which enormously multiply your GY. 

Turn one land, mox, Dark Ritual, Priest of Gix/Thopter, Culling the Weak, Grim Tutor, Yawg Will, wash, rinse, repeat, gg. 

[Moxlotus]

Oh man, culling of the weak.  Reminds me of an old favorite.

Turn 1, stuff
Turn 2: Somehow have 2UB available, Trinket, Culling, Grim in hand.  The mana is either from Moxen, or Dark Ritual or whatever, but I won't count it towards storm.
Spend 2U on Trinket (storm 1, B), get Lotus.
Play Lotus, break for BBB (storm 2, BBBB)
Play Grim for Will (storm 3, B)
Culling away Trinket (storm 4, BBBB)
Cast Will (storm 5, B)
Replay Lotus, sack for blue (storm 6, BUUU)
Use blue to replay Trinket, search for LED, break for BBB (storm 8, BBBB)
Replay Culling on Trinket (storm 9, BBBBBBB)
Replay Grim for Tendrils (storm 10, BBBB)
Tendrils for 22.

[feyd]

artifacts
1 zuran orb
1 mana vault
1 candelabra of tawnos
1 mox diamond
1 crucible of worlds
1 sol ring
1 lotus petal
1 grim monolith
1 memory jar
1 darksteel colossus

land
1 strip mine
1 shivan gorge
1 bloodstained mire
1 tolarian academy
1 glacial chasm
1 tropical island
1 volcanic island
1 gemstone mine
4 flooded strand
2 underground sea
2 bayou

instants
4 force of will
4 dark ritual
3 brainstorm
2 misdirection
2 cunning wish
2 meditate
1 hurkyl's recall
1 chain of vapor
1 frantic search
1 mystical tutoy
1 vampiric tutor
1 crop rotation sorcery
1 living wish
1 burning wish
1 demonic tutor
1 empty the warrens
1 yawgmoth's will
1 windfall
1 tinker
1 mind's desire

enchantments
1 fastbond
1 yawgmoth's bargain
1 power artifact sideboard
1 The tabernacle at pendrell vale
1 tormod's crypt
1 platinum angel
1 glacial chasm
1 boseiju, who shelters all
1 massacre
1 infest
1 deep analysis
1 wheel of fortune
1 extirpate
1 tranquil domain
1 stroke of genius
1 echoing truth
1 ebony charm
1 rack and ruin

I pulled this off an old piece of paper.  It was written in pencil in the back of one of my high school notebooks :>
The deck won by recurring a land.  I played this until my friends got really wise to it really quick and started playing wastelands left and right >.< Ouch!  It celebrated victory in my local card shop where they did not aloow proxies.  I completely ripped it apart once I found out about tendrils of agony though.  It was a really interesting and fun deck to play though, recurring shivan legendary land to deal 1 damage to each opponent while gaining infinite life and mana, haha...the good old days.  In fact the newest card I used was empty the warrens and I thought that was the coolest card I had ever seen in my life.  Storm has been a...fascination of mine until this very day.  LANDS FTW BABY!

[Zwadishim]

I always wondered whether mystic remora could be good in a long build.  It doesn't help you storm, but it might be good in the sideboard for the mirror match to help find FOW or just to force them to kill on turn 1/2 or give you the game.  The opponent must think twice about the setting up they do.  I also think it could be good against stacks/GAT or anything that plays a lot of non-creature spells... pretty much everything.  Hell if it cycles for one its good, if it buys you a turn its good, and if it actually draws you cards its good.  Some people talked about using it with EON HUB in order to never pay upkeep... probably as good as necro if you do that!  One mana to stall/draw seems okay.  The upkeep sucks but perhaps a deck like landstill could do it as a second Standstill.

Any thoughts?