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Author Topic: Optimal GAT builds  (Read 4155 times)
LSD/Cruise
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« on: February 09, 2008, 06:47:22 pm »


I wanted to start a discussion on the optimal GAT build for awhile. Here are some things to start some discussion;

-Should a 4th color be ran? If so, then what is the purpose of that 4th color?

-2nd win condition? Should it be EtW, Meloku, DSC/Tinker, Tog, or Goyf?

-Should GAT run Mana Drains? What about Thoughtseize, Mis-Ds, and such?

-Optimal Sideboard?

-MD Cunning Wish or Berserk, or none of the above?

-Faster approach or slower approach?


Discuss something...
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Petro_Nor
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« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2008, 12:16:08 pm »

ANother option of second win condition is tendrils of agony, very useful, and it introduce a non-creature based win condition.

I htink that it doesn't need mana drains, now including ponder is very hard to left to blue mana available, is better introduce 2 tgz and 2 misdirection. (apart from 4 fow and 4 duress).

I prefer not to include not cunnning neither berserk. IS enought our control and creature kill, and introducing tendrils meandeck more clear.

The side will depend on pur colour configuration. Really inlcuding red we have moreresources against MUD/stax variants, but on the othjr hand we have a weaker mana base. 3 colours build can inlcude  tarmogoyf, energy flux, hurkyls and oxidice, with red we gain ancient grudge, ingot chewer and maybe rack and ruin, and for control matchups REB an pyro).
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Necrologia
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« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2008, 01:41:14 pm »

GAT is a very adaptable deck. The optimal list depends on what metagame you're expecting. Are you expecting shops? If so, Mana Drain over Misdirection, and a pair of basics are the way to go. Lots of Flash? You'll want more Duresses and Misds. Lots of aggro? The red splash is excellent. You'll need to balance your MD and SB against what decks you're expecting to face all day. There's no single optimal GAT list until everyone's metagame looks the same.

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Should a 4th color be ran? If so, then what is the purpose of that 4th color?

A 4th color allows for additional options. Pyroclasm is huge against Goblins, while REB is helpful in many matchups. Fire/Ice is an excellent utility slot MD, giving you a scrollable solution to Welder, Confidant, and other random dorks.

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2nd win condition? Should it be EtW, Meloku, DSC/Tinker, Tog, or Goyf?

Meloku and DSC don't fit well in GAT. EtW, Dryad, Tarmo, and Tog are the only really viable options as far as I'm concerned. Like the rest of the deck, what you run is going to depend on the metagame. Recently I've been liking a mix of Tarmos and Togs main, with a single EtW. Tarmo is an immediate threat, even under multiple Thorns. Tog is solid in the mirror and steals games if you run a MD Berserk. Small empties for 6-8 can do the same, but EtW is nice because it doesn't rely on the GY. At the last tournament I went to I faced MD Leylines all day long, and my 1/2 Togs and 2/3 Tarmogoyfs took forever to go the distance. Since adding a EtW, Leyline hasn't been an issue.

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Should GAT run Mana Drains? What about Thoughtseize, Mis-Ds, and such?

I'd never cut Drain unless you were expecting a field of Flash with few to no Shops. Drain into Energy Flux is pretty much your solution to Stax. On the other hand, Drain is too slow against Flash, so a mix of Thoughseizes and Misds is the way to go.

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-Optimal Sideboard?

Even more metagame dependent than the MD. Energy Flux, Pyroclasm, Pithing Needle, REBs, Yixlid Jailers, 6 Leylines, Additional win conditions, artifact/creature spot removal, etc. A general purpose SB will run Flux, Pyro, Needle, Jailer, and some REBs. If you see a lot of Ichorid or Flash, you can swap the Needle and Jailer for the Leylines.

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MD Cunning Wish or Berserk, or none of the above?

If you run 2 Togs main a MD Berserk is solid. Gush + Berserk can make Tog very lethal very quickly. Otherwise neither Wish or Berserk make the main. Without the Togs, Berserk is too often a bad Snuff Out.

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Faster approach or slower approach?

This depends on your opening hand and what you're playing against. If you've got Fastbond, double land, Gush, Gush, Force go for it. If you've got a bunch of Duresses, Brainstorms, and Scrolls take your time disrupting the opponent before dropping a critter.

I hope I was able to help.
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Sephiroth
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« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2008, 02:25:18 pm »

Hi,
i my metagame there are a lot of oaths, artifacts and long decks...
can you suggest me an good side against this achetypes ?
thanks

seph.
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zeus-online
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« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2008, 03:45:22 pm »

I don't think there's a simple answer to this...here's what i'd do:

1 Cunning wish, simply put: it takes less slots compared to running fire/ice, e Truth and berserk, all of which are great and flexible answers.

I like having red, but i could easily see playing without red, the main thing you gain is REB's imo...You have enough answers to stax in green and blue (Flux, oxidize and mass-bounce.)

I'd probably prefer Tarmogoyf as it's better then dryad against shops, but still, dryad can be huge!

I think psychatog is a bomb, and it pitches to FoW which is nice when you've got it early and have no other use for it, there aren't alot of spells in GAT that i *like* pitching.

My current disruption is:
4 FoW
4 Duress
3 MisD
1 Drain
You don't really want a drain early, and 1 still allows you to scroll for it in certain match-ups or just naturally draw it...while misdirection is a card you want early and often to win counterwars.
In theory i do not like thoughtseize, it takes away precious life which can be a problem since the combo involves fastbond...And most oftenly i take a noncreature card anyway.

The Sideboard is pretty much supposed to be a reflection of the meta-game, but i prefer having multiple answers to Stax as i think it's one of the hardest match-ups, while i leave almost no answers to combo as scroll, fow and duress should be enough the majority of the time. I prefer answers i can hardcast against decks such as ichorid, that means jailer, crypt and needle...Although you can sometimes just skip out on that matchup if you expect ichorid to be absent.

Hope that helps...

/Zeus
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Mon, Goblin Chief
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« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2008, 08:40:18 am »

On most points, I definitly agree with Necrologia.

I dislike running the fourth color, because the gains are pretty marginal now that Thoughtseize exists to take REB's spot in the SB, while the less stable manabase makes your hardest matchup (shops) worse. A metagame with tons of Goblins and few Workshops would be the exception.

On winconditions: again EtW is not worth the splash imo but great once you do run red. DSC doesn't have enough artifacts to Tinker out and Meloku is simply to expensive and outclassed by other options.
Dryad is solid and the only creature that isn't actually bad in any matchup as long as she's dropped early, but neither is the best in any match if cast after turn 2 (SuperLong aside). She's pretty much your allround dude. It also makes her the only creature not necessary in general.
Tarmogoyf on the other hand is pretty bad against anything not running Workshops or mass-creatures (3/4s suck so much in the mirror!). It is your best option against shop though (against ShopAggro to buy time to develop mana out of Sphere-range, against Stax to come down early and finish it before the board gets eaten).
Psychatog (with a maindeck Berserk) gives the deck a second fast combo-kill not reliant on having a solid life-total or finding Fastbond. It's also the best lategame creature the deck has, besting everything in combat.

The creature-base I'd run in the end is dependant on the metagame, but should probably look something like this

2-3 Tarmogoyf OR Dryad  (with 2-3 Tarmogoyf SB), possibly even a mix if SB-space is low
2-3 Psychatog (MD Berserk)

So 5-6 creatures total, the more Shops the more creatures (and the more likely Goofy MD).

GAT should run Mana Drain and at least a single MisD is usually needed, too. Even with Ponder weakening it, a solid hardcounter aside from FoW is needed. It also helps immensely vs Stax. I think 2 Drains is the right number, as you definitly can't support four without being hampered in casting Ponders. A single Drain may be the correct option in certain metagames. MisD's value on the other hand is directly proportional to the amount of Merchant Scrolls floating around. If half the field is playing 3-4 Scrolls 2 or more MisD are pretty much mandatory imo, in a more balanced metagame one is fine to have the random fifth pitch-counter for the counterwars.
As for Thoughtseize, I believe Duress is strictly better in the deck as you don't support the lifeloss well against many decks. Four Duress effects are mandatory in the deck, imo, and six is the maximum number I would run. As mentioned before, if you're not running red, Thoughtseize is your go-to SB card (After board you might go up to 7 Duress' even, but I'd say never more).

Cunning Wish, ime, sucks. The only thing it does well is pitch to FoW. It is slow and clutters your SB or is really really bad if you don't need the Berserk atm. Your only MD answers should be a Echoing Truth and your creatures (plus likely a F/I if you're running red).
I would never ever cut the MD Truth just because I have a Wish, btw, like zeus suggests. Yes, sometimes it's the worst card you can draw, but I've been saved way to many times by the speed of Scroll-Truth to ever consider slowing it down by three mana. It's conceding games to bad players with good luck in drawing Tinker, EtW or Oath to do so.
Berserk MD on the other hand is just great, giving you a second speedy combo-kill that is cheaply accessible (mad important vs Shopp-aggro). I should note that I believe running Mystical MD is an error if you don't have the Berserk. Mystical is actually pretty bad in GAT and only the fact that you suddenly get four additional ways to go Tog + Berserk (think I'm gonna call this Tetris from now on) on the opponent with Tog makes it worth it.

The approach really depends on the matchup and your draw. Against most control-decks, FAST combo and Fish-like decks, I prefer going the slow route, outdrawing them, then dropping GushBond, Will or Tetris and ending it in one fell swoop. Against Oath, my prefered way to win is actually beating them to death with Spirits Wink
Against Shops, you want to be fast and just go for a quick Goyf-kill or Tetris them. Post SB Flux/Predator can often stand in for an actual kill.
Against control-combo like SuperLong, your role is most difficult to chose, as you have to be aggressive and defensive at the same time. This is the matchup where changing roles on the fly is most important. You have to sometimes be extremely disruptive (going as far as Vamping for Duress instead of Ancestral) and sometimes very aggressive (this is actually the matchup where Dryad is at its best as it is the only thing that kills fast even if you don't devote any resources to it whatsoever. And you will regularly not really have time to stop hitting disruption to get draw to refuel. Her only weakness here is not being blue, which is sadly huge.)

As for the SB, Jailer + Needle is far better than Leylines vs Ichorid (and Needle also helps the Shop-matchup). I'd play Leyline only if I expected quite some flash in addition. simply having six Duress postboard already is quite good against Flash so if I'm likely to face Flash only once, I'd stay with Jailer. 3 + 3 is what you need to actually make the matchup favorable enough post SB to turn it around generally, ime. If Ichorid is very low (and I mean VERY because without enough hate this is far worse than Stax), I might cut a needle, followed by a Jailer. I wouldn't go below four cards if I'm not 100% sure that there is not a single person playing Ichorid.
2+ Oxidize are mandatory, imo, as are 2 bombs be it Predator, Flux or something else (usually Artifact Mutation, Grudge etc). An additional land is pretty good for this matchup, too.
If you don't have them MD, Goofy is pretty much a given to shore up both aggro and Shops.
I also think you definitly want 2 additional Thoughtseize (assuming 4 Duress MD) or REB and possibly a MisD (if you run only onbe MD as I do).

So the base SB for me is

2 Oxidize
2 Predator/Flux
3 Jailer
2 Needle
2 Thoughtseize/REB

leaving four slots up for other factors (MD configuration, expected metagame, etc)

Well, those are my views on GAT, hope they help somone out there.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2008, 08:44:29 am by Mon, Goblin Chief » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2008, 01:10:36 pm »

The problem with MD Truth/Berserk/FireIce is that it takes up too many slots for my liking, if it weren't for that i'd deffinetly agree as i think both cards are really good MD.

@Mon, goblin chief:
I might try it out, could you pm me your list?


One problem with discussing GAT is that you can play the deck in many different ways making it hard to answer questions.

One thing that has not been discussed (atleast not in this thread) is LoA or not, i'm currently playing without it, although i like the card. The problem is that i always need colored mana and my lands need to be islands for gush, which is very important.....but still turn 1 LoA wins games.

/Zeus
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hvndr3d y34r h3x
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« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2008, 02:35:45 am »

just a quick comment on meloku. I'd like to start by saying that empty gifts plays very differently than gat, but since we are adressing tinker dsc, warrens and meloku I might be of some use. I piloted this list to top 8 a couple times, and I rarely had issues with its win. The weakest by far is dsc, its just easy to find an ansewer to 1 large permenant. Warrens was always good to me as well, but meloku was by far my favorite. When you were playing the control game vs gat or long it was always an easy hard cast, required 1 card (meloku)  to get on line, it gave you a chump blockaer for goy dryad and random aggro, made smokestack and wire terrable for the stax player, completely avoided strip lock, and hit for a minimum of 2 flying the whole time (usualy 5+ with tokens). Meloku also goes nuts with fast bond. Fire/ice was always an amazing scrolable ansewer to bob.
After all is said and done in a goyf/shop/long meta I'd opt for splashing red running fire/ice, 2 drain,1 misd, 1 Reb, 4 duress, 0 thoughtseize,  and 3  or 4 warrens(I know 3-4 seems a bit much) as a base. Typicly, I'd try to gold fish for about 8 tokens and hope heavy control keeps et or will from resolving. Then sb for ichorid with  ll's and shop with oxidize and rack and ruin.
I favor warrens because its easy to get up to a power total above goyf and wins against larger non-trampling aggro.
Inf I was not splashing red I'd probably play 3  dryad and 3 goyf. No wish or zerk, but 2 thoughtseize.
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LSD/Cruise
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« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2008, 06:06:06 pm »

With the rise of Goblins and Moon Effects, how should we addressed this?

Add a Fire // Ice Maindeck? Scrollable and takes care of Magus and other randomness. BEB? I might even put 3 Blood Moons in the SB myself to throw players off. It's not hard, but you really need to adjust the mana base for it.

Since I'm considering Red, should I put a number of Clasms in the SB like Shay? They deal with Goblins and such.

In a Goblin and Stax heavy meta, should I run Goyfs? I'm not a fan of Tog to be honest, but I'm considering a set of them over Dryads for that meta.


@hvndr3d y34r h3x: To be honest, I have always doubted that DSC would ever be good in GAT, but I may be wrong here considering the fact that GAT and EtW Gifts run a plethora of disruption. However, I have always thought that Meloku would be awesome in GAT... more so than EtW because it's a strong mid-late game card and it requires almost no set-up.
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Nickalisk3
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« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2008, 07:47:26 pm »

I seem to have trouble versus 9-ball aggro workshop variants, how should the build look to maximize effectiveness?

it seems hard to balance the sideboard in a diverse field.
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hvndr3d y34r h3x
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« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2008, 01:54:45 pm »

@lsd/cruise
Meloku was indeed strong. The reason I would suggest a high number of empty instead of meloku is that empty the warrens, I've found, gets on line faster than meloku, and a threatening dryad. Often with a combined power greater than goyf. The ability to micro manage your tokens has also won me games that I am certain other Gat win conditions would not. Just the fact that empty is red has been better that other win conditions for me. In the face of bloodmoon or magus, mox+ brainstorm= 6 power. giving you and excuse to run the easily scrollable fire/ice is also amazing too.
meloku definitely synergizes with fast bond apart from the gush engine more, but typically fast bond means your winning games simply because you run gush.
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JoshuaD
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« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2008, 06:24:08 pm »

I htink that it doesn't need mana drains, now including ponder is very hard to left to blue mana available, is better introduce 2 tgz and 2 misdirection. (apart from 4 fow and 4 duress).
.

What is TGZ?
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« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2008, 08:48:59 pm »

I think it is some sort of thought seize short form.
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« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2008, 07:38:58 am »

I again want to stress Dryad vs. Goyf vs. Tog.

In my experience I was never happy with Tog but liked Dryad and Goyf. Dryad is the combo kill. I never had problems to go Gushbond, then drop Dryad, then Yawgwill storm to 10 and then Time Walk/Berserk for the win. The constrained ressource when going into combo mode is mana and not spells and there were times where I could not have won with Tog because of its 3cc.
Against Stax Goyf is king and dryad sucks but even here Dryad is imho better then Tog as 3 mana is a LOT vs. stax.
In control and combo matchups winconditions are irrelevant and I side them out anyway. Winning the attrition war through draw and outplaying the oponent was always more succesfull to me than dropping a fast Tog.

So the only time I liked Tog better was when I topdecked it with a full graveyard mid game. You can then combo out a little bit faster than with dryad.

The real benefit of Tog is that its blue so it can be pitched but thats imho not enough to play it over dryads/goyfs. 
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