[So Many Insane Plays] Something New in Vintage

[Smmenen]

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/15445.html

Blurb:
Wednesday, February 13th - The Vintage metagame, it seems, is undergoing a renaissance period of impressive innovation. The attack step has gained relevance, control is on the wane, and new strategies and ideas have proved powerful time and again. Today’s So Many Insane Plays sees Stephen Menendian turn to the past in order to build for the future. Oath of Druids may well be good again…

[OwenTheEnchanter]

Best article yet.

- Owen

[hauntedechos]

I would have to agree with the idea that Oath is good now.  As far as I can tell, it's only Tidespout Oath that is pulling some serious weight however.  With the current trend of permanents and critters, Tidespout Oath is certainly in a good position these days.

I don't want to hijack the thread so I'll leave it at that.   

[MadManiac21]

Decklist please for discussion here?

[Smmenen]

Part of the problem with just posting decklists is that people ask questions that have already been addressed in the article, like your questions last week.  Someone can post the decklist, if they'd like, but just realize that many points that may be raised are already discussed therein.   A decklist out of explanatory context may not really tell you that much.   

[The Atog Lord]

If I were going to a tournament and expected to face a decent number of decks involving Platinum Angel and Pact of Negation, I'd sleeve up some Krosan Grips. They remove Platinum Angel or Oath at any time, through a counter wall of any size. Even better, with good timing, you can win games by allowing Pact to do its job. For three mana, Krosan Grip remains solid against many other decks in the format as well.

[Smmenen]

Definitely.  That's another reason it wants Duress effects. 

[Troy_Costisick]

Heya,

Looking it over, it seems that one of the worst positions to be in with this deck is to have both angels in play or one in play and one in hand.  If, under those conditions, someone plays a bounce spell like Chain of Vapor or Echoing Truth on your Angel or even a StP in response to a Pact of Negation, you're going to be in for a really bad day. 

For me, personally, I'd be affraid to play an Oath deck with only two possible targets.  For me, it would be a little tenuous because I tend to make a lot of play mistakes.  Obviously, a very skilled player would have to pilot a deck like this one.

Peace,

-Troy

[OwenTheEnchanter]

If I were going to a tournament and expected to face a decent number of decks involving Platinum Angel and Pact of Negation, I'd sleeve up some Krosan Grips. They remove Platinum Angel or Oath at any time, through a counter wall of any size. Even better, with good timing, you can win games by allowing Pact to do its job. For three mana, Krosan Grip remains solid against many other decks in the format as well.

The problem I have with this logic is that no matter what deck Steve chooses to write about you can instantly say, 'nice storm deck, but if I expected this deck id be sure to pack Arcane Labs and Sphere of Resistance!'. As Ben posted on star city I did try the Plat Oath deck and put it down because people in my local play area were already sporting Krosan Grips and if I was playing an origional build of the Platinum Control deck I wouldn't be so scared of Krosan Grip unless I was at negative life, since the deck (when functioning properly) dominates the games and wins at its own pace so a Grip would only be a minor inconvenience. As opposed to the Oath version which plans to cast an Oath and protect it with Pact of Negations as early as turn 1, in which case a Krosan Grip is game over. Also in the Oath version, Krosan Reclaimation is masterful I wish I had of thought of it.

- Owen

[Nehptis]

Can we see a list?

I'm wondering how the deck remains in control without a draw engine.  Does it use AK, Gush, etc.?  Although there are Tyrant Oath builds that use Gush I don't find it to be a necessity (yet) since Tyrant Oath can win / control very quickly.  Platz Oath is slow to beat down.  So, how does it maintain control if it is not drawing cards?

[feyd]

Insert Quote
Part of the problem with just posting decklists is that people ask questions that have already been addressed in the article, like your questions last week.  Someone can post the decklist, if they'd like, but just realize that many points that may be raised are already discussed therein.   A decklist out of explanatory context may not really tell you that much.  


@Smmenen :  I'm a little lost    If some members here at TMD can't access your "members only" article why would you start up a discussion thread without any information other than a link to said "members only" article?  It seems almost as if you expect everyone to have a membership to your site.  Forgive me for imposing on you, sir.  Could you kindly at least start off a topic for discussion a little less vaguely than "Oath of Druids may well be good again…" ?  Since it's your article couldn't you very well just post the deck list here yourself to spark a discussion here on TMD?  I understand you are trying to endorse scg.com so I will not ask you to do anything which would take funding away from your employers' site... but throw us a bone. :>

[Smmenen]

Part of the reason for starting the thread here is to give people a forum to ask questions about the article and to discuss it.   I was just warning that in many cases, questions will often already have been raised and addressed in the article.     

[xycsoscyx]

It's a good article and I will admit (especially as a Stax player), that Oath is good currently.  Oath has a good game against Stax, which is already seeing a rise in play thanks to GAT.  I think the problem is that the Platinum Oath build relys too heavily on Platz herself, she's not a bad win condition, but now you're relying on A, getting out Oath early to get her into play, and B, keeping her in play so you don't die.  The fact that she's an Artifact AND a Creature just opens her up to twice as much hate.  Artifact hate will already be abound thanks to Stax, and Creature hate will already be abound thanks to GAT.  Like hauntedechos said, I don't want to hijack the thread either, but I'd be interesting to see you (Steve) write an article about Tyrant Oath, as well, since I also think that has a bit more ooomph over Platz Oath.

[kkoie]

Well a friend of mine has been testing with Oath for several months now, and so far we both have come to the conclusion that whatever varient of oath he tries out, any list that MD's two tyrants seems to have a more consistant game against a variety of decks than the platz ver.  I believe his list is very similar to the list being talked about in the oath thread.

[feyd]

I have played against platinum oath before and it isn't very fun.  Just as it was said before unless the opponent has a krosan grip or a bunch of counter backup the angel is hard to get rid of.  I can't say much of anything concerning platinum angel control w/o oath since I have never played against it.  I'd imagine both would play out like pure control decks.  The only ability that could really throw a wrench in the works is some split second cards.  Wipe away, krosan grip, extirpate, sudden death could all mean trouble for oath builds.  When I played against platinum oath my opponent basically put all his chips in once he resolved oath.  He went all in and protected the angel with his life.  And that is all he had to do to win.  Get an angel out and protect it.  Beats FTW.

[The Atog Lord]

In addition to Split Second cards, Shattering Spree could be fun to play against Platinum Oath. They're in bad shape if they don't have a counter for each red mana you have.

[hauntedechos]

Please take what I write with a grain of salt, as I have not read the article due to non premium membership.

In the current meta with Stax, and MuD decks....artifacts and thusly hate, why would one choose Plat Oath over Tidespout Oath?  To be accurate, I'm not saying that one should or shouldn't, it's mearly a question I was wondering if the community would like to either discuss or explain (if this is off the topic of Steve's article then let's just let the question be/start a seperate thread over it)

@ Steve:  I always enjoy your articles, and I think that I've developed enough frustration over the premium thing that I will be signing up..congrats Steve, you've just made moremoney for SSG  and yourself heh.

Haunted Echos

[Nehptis]

Can someone who saw the list explain how a deck that's win condition is slow wins the long game?  How does it keep it's hand full of counters to protect while it slow beats FTW?

[OwenTheEnchanter]

In addition to Split Second cards, Shattering Spree could be fun to play against Platinum Oath. They're in bad shape if they don't have a counter for each red mana you have.

Shattering Spree and Gempalm Incinerator are the biggest reason why the origional list had 2 Trickbind in the sideboard to Merchant Scroll for. Also there aren't any winning decks that play Shattering Spree.

[Rock Lee]

Interesting article.

I think almost all of the points discussed in the article have been covered at least twice in the Oath of Druids in the Current Meta thread.

I also see very little difference between platinum oath and this build. Platinum Oath, which has been around for months before Platinum Control, seems to have the same types of issues that this deck will have. (All of which are covered in the "Oath of Druids in the Current Meta" thread, but difficulty dealing with aggro, giving opponents 3+ turns to win, and GaT hate spashing easily onto Platinum control are a few.)

I question a few concepts such as running a Strip mine with little else for disruptive synergy. Only running one fetchable green source, although you do mention this in your article. Also running a black compliment without Yawg seems foolhardy, even with Blessing refreshing your Scrolls. This deck has very few ways to dig out of a hole.

I don't deny that this deck, in the right hands can win tournaments, but I would put the majority of such a victory on the pilot's shoulders rather than the deck's.

A good read though for sure. Especially for novices to the Oath archetype. The stream-of-thought writing style and high information density are always something I enjoy from your articles Steve.

For a further breakdown of Oath exploring many variations, winning lists, and a similar information density, check out the Oath in the current Meta thread. ^^

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

"oath in the current meta" had purposed platinum oath as a starting point I believe. After a great deal of testing and considering raw data we dropped it in favor of a more versatile/resilient list, re considering akroma/razia, and tidespout+ tidespout/pinger. Even revisiting Platz in the wake of platinum control style decks. All in different shells. What it comes down to is that platz control oath is no good with the amount of duress+ stifle in the current meta because of stifling oath. If I were to revisit the "you can't kill me" approach I would drop the pacts, and play 1 platz +1 blazing archon this makes you less of a victim to artifact hate and echoing truth.

[sundering jerk]

I tried playing this deck in tournaments way before this article was ever posted. Considering that the decks to beat right now are Workshop aggro, Goblins, and GAT, here is a list of reasons I found why this deck epically fails.

Against:

Workshop Agro:
1) whenever they resolved a quick welder I lost.
2) they SB 4 shattering spree. Not Fun
3) They play with duplicant
4) They sideboard Viashino Heretic   
5) They also sideboard Stingscourger   
6) magus of the moon first turn hurts
7) Eon Hub=GG

Goblins:
1) They play with Tin street hooligans
2) Earwig squad = Game over
3) Gempalm incinerator
4) Stingscourger
5) Ringleader gives them better card draw meaning your slow speed will be your downfall. (I wish fact or fiction was a 2/2 with haste!!!)
6) Goblin Matron get all of the terrible things I just mentioned!
7) Goblins now has a Diabolic edic that they can Wart up every turn= broken
8) Cabal Therapy can ruin your day before you have a chance
9) If all this maindeck terrible stuff wasn't bad enough they sideboard Shattering spree and Krosan Grip

Gat:
1) They don't have to play creatures until they explode in your face
2) Their draw engine is amazing, you can't have all of the answers all of the time
3) First turn Duress has a sick way of winning games
4) Good Gat players laugh at this deck
5) Crosin Grip

For all of the reasons I just mentioned this deck felt like I was fighting an uphill battle all day. Sometimes I would get an opening hand with mox orchard and squeak into a win but over all I hated playing this deck. I understand the deck has ways of getting around everything I mentioned but like I said you can't have all of the answers all of the time.

Smenen, stick to storm decks.

[Necrologia]

Just for discussion's sake, here's the list:

1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
2 Platinum Angel

4 Oath Of Druids

1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
1 Echoing Truth
4 Force Of Will
1 Mystical Tutor
4 Pact Of Negation
1 Vampiric Tutor

1 Demonic Tutor
4 Duress
1 Gaea's Blessing
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Ponder
1 Time Walk

1 Island
3 Flooded Strand
4 Forbidden Orchard
3 Polluted Delta
1 Strip Mine
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
   
Sideboard:
3 Pithing Needle
4 Leyline Of The Void
1 Fire / Ice
3 Hurkyl's Recall
3 Trickbind
1 Volcanic Island

[hauntedechos]

Smenen, stick to storm decks.

Is it really a smart thing to do, telling innovators which archtype to focus on? It also comes off as rude and arrogant.

I do have to agree that I feel Platinum Oath would be much harder to win tournament matches with versus Tidespout Oath.  I was hoping that Steve might elaborate on why he feels that Platinum Oath is the better Oath build of the many configurations that one could choose from.

cheers,
Haunted.

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

First up, kudos for finally bringing the idea out into the open. I played with the idea for a time after seeing Owens deck, too, as I was relly excited by the coolness of the idea of Pacting with Angel out and soonafter read something about upkeep-triggers that made me think of Oath. But I abandoned it in the conceptualizing stage as either being bad Flash or bad GAT.

Looking at the skeleton of the deck, it resembles Super-Long a real lot (-bombs, +Oath/Scroll) but with the additional difference that four of your disruption pieces only come online after/while "going off" - here casting Oath. Different from Superlong, though, you need 3-4 turns to actually finish the opponent once you have gone off. Without a relevant draw-engine, what exactly keeps GAT from just outdrawing you horribly and getting Truth? To be honest, against this list I'd even play my turn 3-4 Dryad once I have accumulated enough action and a Merchant Scroll for Truth in hand (something you can't ever do vs the Akroma or Tyrant versions) and simply trigger Oath even if you don't have Orchard, knowing that afterwards I'll grow Dryad faster than your Angels will deal me damage (if you don't feel like just chumping with them every turn, achieving nothing but giving me more time to prepare to fight throught the counterwall) ending it by forcing through the Truth after dealing the damage... And this doesn't even take the standard ways to fight Oath with GAT into account: stopping Oath - hard if you have Orchard, rather easy if you don't yet- or combo-winning while you dig for the second combo-piece - not all that hard with MD Berserk against only FoW + Duress. I mean, I can almost always engineer a kill on turn 5 vs resistence with GAT if I force the issue and play a bit more aggressive than I'm prone to do (I'll loose a few more games to not multiple protection draws so usually I play it slow). That is the turn this deck kills with its god-draw of Oath-Orchard turn 1...
As your defense gets a lot better once you draw the Orchard, because you can now use PoN to drop Oath, the game will often come down to you finding both pieces before turn 3 while sufficently slowing GAT using only FoW and Duress to still be in a position where Oath will resolve. What I mean is against Flash (4 PoN, 4 FoW, 3 MisD vs your 12 slots, granted) I was usually able to sculpt a hand through which Flash would never again resolve by turn 3 or 4. I don't see why this should turn out differently here, so I assume you will loose the games in which you haven't at least found Oath by turn 3. And I'm not even dead if I don't manage to get that kind of hand together...

What made SuperLong hard was that they created an opening also using 12 disruption slots BUT KILLED YOU when they had done so. Most games would have turned around to GAT otherwise. Having a control-deck that can't refuel its counterbase is doomed to fail against a powerful aggro-control deck. Short and simple, you need some kind of draw-engine if you want to keep the Angels in play for long enough to finish the game. And your SB doesn't even run anything to adress the control matchup.

As for the Stax matchup, once you have the mana to drop Oath, you don't really need many counters any more if you run something like Tyrant, largely negating the advantage of being able to Pact to protect yourself or your combo.

Sorry to be this negative, but I have played against MonoU-style decks and Oath literary more often than I can count with decks able to play combo-control. More or cheaper counters are decidedly not what will help Oath - or at least not if it means I suddenly have till turn 5 to win while only forcing me to resolve a bounce-spell.

I don't play Oath, but I do think Oath is a sweet idea in the current metagame. I sincerely believe it needs a draw engine really fitted to its needs, though (I haven't found anything I really like, Gush has horrible interactions with Orchard and/or the landcount in the deck, TFK misses artifacts, rest is to expensive), as well as something to Oath up that has immediate impact.

All that being said, thanks a lot simply for working on stuff. At least you (+ Meandeck I suppose) build and talk about new decks on a regular basis, there are precious few really competent deckbuilders in T1 compared to the PT formats. So please DON'T stick to storm decks but follow whatever tickles your fancy

[oAFLORD]

Smenen, stick to storm decks.

Is it really a smart thing to do, telling innovators which archtype to focus on? It also comes off as rude and arrogant.

Well, he is a sundering jerk... 

oAFLORD

[Nehptis]

Thanks Nec for posting the list so we can have a more meaningful discussion.

As I expected the deck lacks enough draw in combination with such a slow kill.  I don't run heavy draw in Tyrant Oath like Rock or 100 Year do in their lists with Gush.  But, Tyrant Oath can kill much quicker than Platz.  So, I don't need to protect my win for very long.

The other "miss" I see is not including Tinker.  Tyrant Oath doesn't run Crypt or Petal or Sol Ring.  But, it is not opposed to hard casting its creatures.  So, with even more targets it seems like Tinker is a must include in Platz Oath.

I think there is overwhelming agreement that Tyrant Oath is the Oath of today, Angel Oath being 2nd (Akorma / Razia) and Platz being a distant 3rd.  So, I'd like to see an article on Tyrant Oath.  Also, I love to see a response from Sean Ryan (or anyone) regarding why the lists posted by Rock, 100 year and myself are clunky?  What can be improved?

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=34008.150

[Harlequin]

Oath is clunky.  As a means of victory, it's not nessisarily ideal... You have to run 4 non-fetchalbe non-basics that you want to see exactly one of.  And you have to run large, generally uncastable creatures, as well as semi-useful cards with flashback as a contingency for not decking yourself.  Also as other have pointed out, there is no ideal draw engine for the deck, so you are forced to settle for a square-peg vrs round-hole type problem.  So yes, I would say that as compared to GAT or unrestricted Gifts, or even old Control Slaver - Any Oath list is "clunky."

But all that being said, I think it is still acceptably Clunky.  I really support Gush, especially in Tyrant Builds.  Its a free castable instant that recoups handsize and typically will chain into more playable spells.  I think one of the major hang-ups for most GAT players who try and go tyrant oath is that Gush is not a combo peice.  Its a reactionary spell that needs good timing just like brainstorm.  Tyrant oath actaully uses gush as an instant!

[hitman]

As far as a draw engine goes, I've played Accumulated Knowledge and Intuition with Life from the Loam/Wasteland/Strip Mine.  This draw engine is good before you Oath and after as it fills the graveyard with more AKs.  Intuition increases the robustness of your draw engine, tutors for Oath pieces, gets countermagic in tight spots and can make an unwinnable gamestate for your opponent off softlocks using Life from the Loam with Wasteland/Strip Mine and Engineered Explosives.  I've seen a list that plays two Deep Analysis so you can count on more draw after an Oath activation but I don't think it's worth the mainboard slots.  The benefits to Platinum Oath over Tyrant Oath should be obvious.  If you use Platinum Angel and Pact of Negation, you're effectively in control of the game a whole turn earlier than other Oath decks.  This is very important as one of Oath's biggest weaknesses is passing the turn to get an effect out of the Oath in the first place.  Once Tyrant hits the board, it's a more reliable ability since you don't need additional cards in hand but getting to that point is harder.  If you're worried about Welders, counter them or Engineered Explosives them.  If you're worried about Split Second cards or Replicate effects, play Duress.  There's always good cards against any deck.  Just play correctly and don't overextend yourself. 

[Harlequin]

As I said in the thread on SSG.  Part of the problem with Plats is that you don't have enough card slots in the deck to run 4 force, 4 Pacts, 4+ duress effects, EE, Etruth, and a robust enough draw engin to ensure you have the right answer at the right time. 

With Tyrant, your draw engine and your mana base double as your combo enablers.  The overlap in cards makes it the only viable option in my oppinion.  You say that in Plat Oath you control the game a turn earlier (am I'm not even sure what that means), but I contest that you have to maintain your stanglehold on that advantage for 3 turns longer than you do with Tyrant Oath.  It seems like Plat oath gets beaten by diversity...