[Premium Article] So Many Insane Plays - Unrestriction Proposals

[Smmenen]

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/15480.html

With the next B&R list announcement around the corner, I go through four cards - Dream Halls, Fact or Fiction, Grim Monolith and Mox Diamond -- exploring all of their potential uses - in making the case for unrestrictions. 

[Polynomial P]

Mox Diamond could also be erratted back to its actual wording since it shares very similar wording with phyrexian dreadnought. That would allow Mox Diamond to be played as a strictly superior lotus petal. But the DCI should do one or the other.

The same goes for Lotus Vale and Scorched ruins.

[Matt]

Mox Diamond should AT LEAST be reworded so that the land isn't an additional cost - it makes it vulnerable to a counterspell in ways that the printed wording never implied even under old rulesets.

"As Mox Diamond comes into play, discard a land card or sacrifice Mox Diamond."

That way it's neither a Petal nor has the counterspell weakness. It does lose its Welder-synergy but whatever.

[Troy_Costisick]

Hey Steve,

What about cards like Crop Rotation, Enlightened Tutor, Lotus Petal, and Library of Alexandria?  They're ones I've felt lately that wouldn't break the format and would potentially spawn new archetypes.  Could you give us your thoughts on those four?

Peace,

-Troy

[Necrologia]

Hey Steve,

What about cards like Crop Rotation, Enlightened Tutor, Lotus Petal, and Library of Alexandria?  They're ones I've felt lately that wouldn't break the format and would potentially spawn new archetypes.  Could you give us your thoughts on those four?

Peace,

-Troy

Crop Rotation is dangerous, allowing Stax access to 4x Strip Mines, while Lotus Petal is just nuts in combo in general. I've messed around with lots of topdeck tutors and Chromatic Spheres in a 5 color long shell before. Anything that fetches Necro and Lotus for 1 mana is a little risky as far as I'm concerned.

LoA is a potential unrestriction candidate based on power, simply because no one is ever going to want to run more than 2. Colorless lands are simply not helpful in control decks these days. Needing UU for Mana Drain and 2 Islands for Gush really limits LoA's power in anything but the control mirror. There are secondary market concerns, but for every player scrambling to get a playset there will be a collector who's excited that his LoA just tripled in value.

I'm a fan of a better safe than sorry approach. The format is great right now, and I don't see a need to try something new to shake things up. Wait until people have stopped being creative and the meta's started to stagnate again, like it was in the Pitch Long/Gifts era.

[Smmenen]

Copy-post your replies in the SCG forums where Turian said he'd read them, FYI.

[zeus-online]

Actually Mox diamond is working pretty close to how it worked when it was printed.

About the cards in question:
From steve's article:
Dream halls - Wouldn't do squat, so let it go off the list...Hell i HOPE a good dream halls deck can be made, but it's not possible if you ask me.
FoF - That's interesting, i'd like that! it's not really better then gush, so why not?
Monolith - Might get played, but doubt it.
Diamond - A crappy card that's hard to fit in with the low-land mana bases in vintage.

Troy's suggestions:
Crop rotation - A little dangerous i think, but heck i could be wrong.
E. Tutor - not too scared of this card, can only get a few playable cards worth fetching: Oath (Minor) Lotus (Major) Necro (Major) Bargain (Minor, because of the casting cost) can't think of anything else...most artifacts not named black lotus isn't worth fetching.
Lotus petal - No way in hell, it's a major boost for storm.
LoA - It's too good if you ask me....Alot of people have been cutting it lately, but i still think it's way too good.

my 2 cents. (Although we don't have cents in denmark  )

/Zeus

[Smmenen]

Mike Turian, a member of R&D and the DCI, has posted in the SCG forums that he wants to hear what the Vintage community thinks of my proposals and others.    If you speak up, this is a great opportunity to have the DCI listen to us directly about what should be unrestricted. 

[Troy_Costisick]

I emailed him, hopefully he got it

Thanks for being such a great advocate, Steve.  I can't speak for others, but I personally appreciate you work.

Peace,

-Troy

[DerDaniel]

Good to see, that (at least parts of the community) can create influence on those policies. I think there is too much distance between DCI policies and player's opinions. Thank you Steve for being one of the few institutions which are able try to improve Vintage as itself. Of course it's exciting to improve the game in given borders, but being involved in the process of format-creating, gives you the opportunites to improve the game ITSELF. I'm pretty sure, it couldnt be in better hands.

[Oath of Happy]

Enlightened Tutor gets fastbond, does it not?

[Matt]

Actually Mox diamond is working pretty close to how it worked when it was printed.

Yes, it works pretty close. But not exactly. Which is the entire point.

And it COULD work EXACTLY as it originally did. It is not a difficult fix at all.

[Shock Wave]

I was always of the opinion that FoF should never become unrestricted. Then Gush became unrestricted ...

Obviously Dream Halls can come back. Mox Diamond seems like it should be alright.

If I was a betting man, I'd wager Steve is right about these four unrestrictions. However, I really think that unrestricting four cards all at once is a little much, since even the most seemingly innocent changes can sometimes prove to be disastrous. I say we try two at a time, and if after four-six months everything is kosher, we unleash another two. My proposal would be to pair either of the two iffier cards (Grim or FoF) with the one of the two weaker cards and then immerse the sets back into the card pool separately. That way we lessen the probability of any nonsense and still shake things up a little at a time.

Enlightened Tutor and LoA should not be unrestricted. These are dangerous cards with high potential for abuse.

[zeus-online]

Actually Mox diamond is working pretty close to how it worked when it was printed.

Yes, it works pretty close. But not exactly. Which is the entire point.

And it COULD work EXACTLY as it originally did. It is not a difficult fix at all.

When mox diamond was printed you could not respond to it's comes into play effect, and therefore not use it as a lotus petal.

/Zeus

[Troy_Costisick]

It's amazing how many people don't realize that the game was radically different before Sixth Edition.  It was a whole 'nother beast back then.

[Mr. Nightmare]

Actually Mox diamond is working pretty close to how it worked when it was printed.

Yes, it works pretty close. But not exactly. Which is the entire point.

And it COULD work EXACTLY as it originally did. It is not a difficult fix at all.

When mox diamond was printed you could not respond to it's comes into play effect, and therefore not use it as a lotus petal.

/Zeus

With Matt's proposed wording, you still can't do that.  Changing "as an additional cost" to "as this comes into play" makes it like the Rav block duals.  You choose to either sacrifice it or to discard a land, but you don't choose until the spell resolves.  This means you lose the auto 2-for-1 if the Mox is countered.  You never had that happen in pre-6th world.

[zeus-online]

Actually Mox diamond is working pretty close to how it worked when it was printed.

Yes, it works pretty close. But not exactly. Which is the entire point.

And it COULD work EXACTLY as it originally did. It is not a difficult fix at all.

When mox diamond was printed you could not respond to it's comes into play effect, and therefore not use it as a lotus petal.

/Zeus

With Matt's proposed wording, you still can't do that.  Changing "as an additional cost" to "as this comes into play" makes it like the Rav block duals.  You choose to either sacrifice it or to discard a land, but you don't choose until the spell resolves.  This means you lose the auto 2-for-1 if the Mox is countered.  You never had that happen in pre-6th world.

Oh sorry, must've misread his post.

/Zeus

[twault]

Dream Halls, Grim Monolith, and Mox Diamond are definitely able to come off the restricted list.

I don't think there's any way to realistically abuse Dream Halls with it's casting cost being so high. There's always alternate ways to get cards into play, but doesn't the Storm mechanic just work more efficiently?

I could see Grim Monolith being used, but it don't think it would be overly-abusive, even with Voltaic Key. Myself, I'd be happy to try 4 of them in a Belcher build and let you know. I don't anticipate any major change.

Mox Diamond is also pretty safe. Trading a land to play this is a steep cost, especially now when decks are running less lands and more fetches. You just can't afford to trade lands and lose card advantage in some decks.

Fact or Fiction is still pretty sick, but can probably come off the list. Gush is definitely more broken and the sky didn't fall when it became unrestricted.

Here's my .02 on the other suggestions:

Library of Alexandria can come off the list simply because it doesn't really make sense to run more than one. I think it's lost a little luster over the years, and I think there's better card choices than Library to run as multiples in most decks.

Enlightened tutor might be alright too. Running 4 white tutors that only fetch artifacts & enchantments doesn't seem too scary, but it would probably see a lot of play. Bomberman? Oath? GAT? My main benchmark is that Merchant Scroll (which is unrestricted) is a more powerful card and remains unrestricted.

Lotus Petal is one to watch, because it has potential to maybe someday come off the list. I don't think now is the right time. Again, another card that's broken, but not as broken as it used to be. If unrestriction happens, Chalice @ 0 will be required.

Crop Rotation is one that should be further discussed. It doesn't auto-win games, yet, it's still pretty broken. It might be best to err on the side of caution here.

Huge chunk of blank space removed. -Matt

[forests failed you]

I would be in favor of unrestricting all of the cards Steve has proposed with the exception of Mox Diamond.

Fact or Fiction, Grim Monolotih, and Dream Halls are all surprisingly fair cards--in the sense that they are not absurdly fast and do not lead to abusive turn one or two kills.  With the number of Workshop prision/beatdown decks in the metagame I don't really think that slow Fact or Fiction control decks would be potent or fast enough to rise to power in the current metagame.  However, Mox Diamond on the otherhand does enable lots of quick combo, and also seems to have a nice fit into the modern 9sphere/Smokestack decks.  Most importantly Mox would fix one of the major problems with the 9sphere mud archetype, which has always been the fact that it really doesn't have good access to colored mana.  Mox Diamond+Crucible gives the deck a solid way of making up the initial loss of card advantage and gives the deck a really stellar way of taking advantage of tempo while easily recouping the card disadvantge.  Most importantly however is that if the deck can play 4 Mox Diamond it would easily be able to splash powerful spells--most importantly Goblin Welder and Gorilla Shaman.

In adition to how strong Mox Diamond would obviously be in Workshop decks--It also seems like it would be abusive in fast Strom based combo decks.  Decks that want to win quickly with cards like Tendrils of Agony or Empty the Warrens would love to have 4 extra 0 casting cost artifact mana sources--especially ones that can tap for one Mana of any color.

Chrome Mox quickly got itself restricted because it was so obviously abusive in Long.dec (among other abusive cards of course LED, Burning Wish, et cetera), and Mox Diamond overall is an objectively more powerful card than even Chrome is (which is saying a lot).

One of the fundimental flaws of the Vintage format that people complain about is that the format tends to be too fast.  Whether individually we Vintage players agree or disagree is a completely different story--but the fact remains that the overall perception is that the format is degenerate and too fast, luck based, degenerate.  In my opinion unrestricting a card that would almost certainly speed up specific decks which are already among the best in the format seems to be a mistake.  4x Mox Diamond is the kind of thing that would certainly lead to some decks having a higher probablity of drawing 'the nuts' and winning too quickly, too early.

Aside from the Mox Diamond for the reasons that I have already explained, I certainly feel that the unrestriction of Dream Halls, Fact or Fiction, and Grim Monolith would be both healthy and interesting for the Vintage metagame--and would welcome that change should the DCI choose to do so.

[Shock Wave]

I would be in favor of unrestricting all of the cards Steve has proposed with the exception of Mox Diamond.

Fact or Fiction, Grim Monolotih, and Dream Halls are all surprisingly fair cards--in the sense that they are not absurdly fast and do not lead to abusive turn one or two kills.  With the number of Workshop prision/beatdown decks in the metagame I don't really think that slow Fact or Fiction control decks would be potent or fast enough to rise to power in the current metagame.  However, Mox Diamond on the otherhand does enable lots of quick combo, and also seems to have a nice fit into the modern 9sphere/Smokestack decks.  Most importantly Mox would fix one of the major problems with the 9sphere mud archetype, which has always been the fact that it really doesn't have good access to colored mana.  Mox Diamond+Crucible gives the deck a solid way of making up the initial loss of card advantage and gives the deck a really stellar way of taking advantage of tempo while easily recouping the card disadvantge.  Most importantly however is that if the deck can play 4 Mox Diamond it would easily be able to splash powerful spells--most importantly Goblin Welder and Gorilla Shaman.

In adition to how strong Mox Diamond would obviously be in Workshop decks--It also seems like it would be abusive in fast Strom based combo decks.  Decks that want to win quickly with cards like Tendrils of Agony or Empty the Warrens would love to have 4 extra 0 casting cost artifact mana sources--especially ones that can tap for one Mana of any color.

Chrome Mox quickly got itself restricted because it was so obviously abusive in Long.dec (among other abusive cards of course LED, Burning Wish, et cetera), and Mox Diamond overall is an objectively more powerful card than even Chrome is (which is saying a lot).

One of the fundimental flaws of the Vintage format that people complain about is that the format tends to be too fast.  Whether individually we Vintage players agree or disagree is a completely different story--but the fact remains that the overall perception is that the format is degenerate and too fast, luck based, degenerate.  In my opinion unrestricting a card that would almost certainly speed up specific decks which are already among the best in the format seems to be a mistake.  4x Mox Diamond is the kind of thing that would certainly lead to some decks having a higher probablity of drawing 'the nuts' and winning too quickly, too early.

Aside from the Mox Diamond for the reasons that I have already explained, I certainly feel that the unrestriction of Dream Halls, Fact or Fiction, and Grim Monolith would be both healthy and interesting for the Vintage metagame--and would welcome that change should the DCI choose to do so.

That's a compelling argument against the restriction of Mox Diamond. I personally haven't tested it in the archetypes you mention, but I agree with the logic behind your concern.  I love how interactive this format can be, which is why I have a penchant dislike for decks like Flash and Ichorid, which attempt to remove the fundamental element of skill from this game. Your concern is along the same vein: if we allow more fast mana accelerants, we flirt with crossing a very dangerous threshold of "brokenness", to the detriment of the format. Great post!

[Moxlotus]

In adition to how strong Mox Diamond would obviously be in Workshop decks--It also seems like it would be abusive in fast Strom based combo decks.  Decks that want to win quickly with cards like Tendrils of Agony or Empty the Warrens would love to have 4 extra 0 casting cost artifact mana sources--especially ones that can tap for one Mana of any color

If Mox Diamond would be insanely strong in Workshop or combo decks, they would already be playing one.  They aren't.  Combo decks run like 12-14 lands so the chances of them getting a land to go with their Diamond isn't the best.  Steve and Kevin Cron thought about playing Diamond in one of their stax versions a long time ago, but it is terrible on the topdeck.  And it is even worse in a mulligan.  If it would be amazing as a 4-of, it would be played as a 1-of.  While not necessarily true of "bombs" (stuff like Doomsday needs a deck built around it), I would wager it is true with fast mana.

[Sextiger]

To me it seems that Shop decks can get enough Colored mana out of Coalition Relic, yes it costs 3, but it can produce more than one mana, it doesn't cost a land drop, and isn't as easily destroyed by Gorilla Shaman.

Unrestricting Mox Diamond would most likely lead to some decent Loam decks.

[Smmenen]

The problem with Mox Diamond is outlined in my article: it requires a high land base.  It is unabusable in Combo, even Flash combo, because of it.  As a storm combo builder who has designed and won power with more different vintage storm decks than anyone (yes, even becker), I assure that it is horrid in storm combo.   Equally important, it is terrible in a mulligan.  A mulligan to 6 or 5 with two Mox Diamonds is terrible.   

[nicofromtokyo]

Just a word about the japanese vintage metagame : Flash.

Vintage from Tokyo #3 (2007/10/13)
TOP 8, 4th : Hulk Flash

Vintage from Tokyo #4 (2007/11/10)
TOP8, 8th : Hulk Flash

Vintage from Tokyo #5 (2007/12/08)
TOP 8, Winner : Hulk FLash
TOP 8, 8th : Hulk Flash

TOKAIDO VINTAGE 2007 FINAL (2007/12/23)
Quarterfinals
A :Hulk Flash vs Affinity
B: Hulk Flash vs Fish
C: Hulk Flash vs Belcher
D: Hulk Flash vs Manaless Ichorid
Semifinals
A. Hulk Flash vs B.Hulk Flash
C. Hulk Flash vs D.Manaless Ichorid
Finals
Hulk Flash vs Hulk Flash
Champion
Hulk Flash

Kashiwagi Cup (2008/1/12)
Winner :  Hulk Flash

Vintage from Tokyo #7 (2008/02/09)
TOP 8, 2dnd : Hulk FLash

CDC Cup (2008/2/17)
Winner : Hulk Flash

DCI, do something!!!

[Shock Wave]

Just a word about the japanese vintage metagame : Flash.

Vintage from Tokyo #3 (2007/10/13)
TOP 8, 4th : Hulk Flash

Vintage from Tokyo #4 (2007/11/10)
TOP8, 8th : Hulk Flash

Vintage from Tokyo #5 (2007/12/08)
TOP 8, Winner : Hulk FLash
TOP 8, 8th : Hulk Flash

TOKAIDO VINTAGE 2007 FINAL (2007/12/23)
Quarterfinals
A :Hulk Flash vs Affinity
B: Hulk Flash vs Fish
C: Hulk Flash vs Belcher
D: Hulk Flash vs Manaless Ichorid
Semifinals
A. Hulk Flash vs B.Hulk Flash
C. Hulk Flash vs D.Manaless Ichorid
Finals
Hulk Flash vs Hulk Flash
Champion
Hulk Flash

Kashiwagi Cup (2008/1/12)
Winner :  Hulk Flash

Vintage from Tokyo #7 (2008/02/09)
TOP 8, 2dnd : Hulk FLash

CDC Cup (2008/2/17)
Winner : Hulk Flash

DCI, do something!!!

The problem with this post is that people are just going to contend with the validity of the results in your region. They'll argue that in their metagame, Flash doesn't win enough to present compelling evidence of dominance. They'll argue that all you need to do is run Leyline. Apparently, Flash doesn't win enough in the US to be considered a serious threat. It wins here and there, but I guess that isn't good enough to warrant any action.

If it were up to me, Flash would've been neutered long ago based upon on several principles of interactivity: If a deck can win on Turn 0 or Turn 1 with appreciable frequency (let's not get bogged down in the numbers, because it is clear that Flash does this way too often), and has demonstrated potential to win tournaments (Flash satisfies this condition as well), then it presents a serious problem which needs to be addressed. Trinisphere has already been restricted based upon the principle that too often, it does not allow the opponent to play their cards. When Flash kills on Turn 0 or Turn 1, and on occasion accompanied with counter backup, it's difficult to argue that the opposition had a chance to play. I don't understand why the DCI has essentially reneged on their reasoning.

Moreover, in order to remain competitive in a metagame where Flash is prevalent, you need to board heavily against it. Rich Shay, a seasoned and respected Vintage veteran, even concluded after Flash won Waterbury that running 4 Leyline is not enough to give you a chance. He ran 6 at Gencon. That is absurd. It is unreasonable that one of the most resilient and disruptive decks in the format must run 6 specific sideboard cards, which must be part of the opening hand to be effective, in order to have a good chance of interacting with its opponent.

Previous to Flash, we had Grim Long and Pitch Long, both which occasionally won the game on Turn 1, but hardly ever through a Force of Will. Yes, even in these instances, you might have been required to mulligan into a Force of Will, but at least if you did draw a FoW, there was a reasonable chance of surviving long enough to play additional disruption. Not so, when you're playing against Flash. Not only are the odds of Flash being able to win early higher, but the probability that they will also be able to win through your Force of Will increase as well. Now, Force of Will is no longer reliable enough as protection. Leyline of the Void is required. So what's the difference between mulling into Force of Will and mulling into Leyline? Not a whole lot. The difference is that with the existence of Flash, unless you run Leyline main (which most archetypes do not), you're going to blown out before you can play with unacceptable frequency. So what is this "frequency" that I'm talking about? I would say that Grim/Pitch Long are the benchmarks. Yes, they sometimes won on Turn 1, but hardly ever through disruption, and never on Turn 0 (Flash opens up this ugly possibility). These decks also required significantly more thought than Flash when winning on Turn 1 or setting up to win on Turn 2.

I strongly suggest that the DCI reconsider the reasons why Trinisphere was restricted and then reevaluate the place that Flash has in Vintage. Once we start introducing decks that untrained monkeys can wield, and that kill the opponent faster and with greater resiliency than the aforementioned archetypes, we are moving this format in a direction more semblant of blackjack, where playskill is significantly mitigated.

[zeus-online]

As has been said, the DCI is watching this thread:
http://www.starcitygames.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=307814&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
So please post arguments there

/Zeus

[Troy_Costisick]

One of the fundimental flaws of the Vintage format that people complain about is that the format tends to be too fast.  Whether individually we Vintage players agree or disagree is a completely different story--but the fact remains that the overall perception is that the format is degenerate and too fast, luck based, degenerate.  In my opinion unrestricting a card that would almost certainly speed up specific decks which are already among the best in the format seems to be a mistake.  4x Mox Diamond is the kind of thing that would certainly lead to some decks having a higher probablity of drawing 'the nuts' and winning too quickly, too early.

Well, I think this is why Steve also proposed unrestricting Fact or Fiction at the same time.  FoF would slow the the format down (Steve correct me if I'm wrong here).  It sounds contradictory that more draw spells slows down the format, but it's true.  The format slowed after Gush's unrestriction, and that can serve as evidence.  But the reason it slows things down is that cards like FoF help people draw answers to counter their opponent's strategy.  Finding and answer stalls your opponent and does cost you some time as well.  So, any speed gained frmo the Diamond would be balanced by the answers gained from FoF.  Personally, I'd prefer to see Library of Alexandria unrestricted rather than FoF.  FoF can be pitched to FoW & Misdirection, it's an instant, and it gets you cards faster than LoA.  LoA can accomplish essentially the same thing as FOF but is also vulnerable to land hate.  However, either way would be fine IMO.  We'll just have to see.

Peace,

-Troy

[Phele]

As said on Starcitygames, just a few notes on the possible candidates – just my opinion. The most relevant arguments are meanwhile all noted. I just add a little more:

Dream Halls: can come off the list, there are more broken possibilities out there

Mox Diamond: can come off the list, as it won't help current or new broken combo decks too much, but would maybe help to establish interesting new archetypes like Loam in T1

Fact or Fiction: can come off the list. As long as Gush is unrestricted which is by far more broken, it can easily come off to help out slower control archetypes.

Grim Monolith: can come off the list, as I don't see any broken stuff that this is really helping out, beside Monolith + Power Artefact maybe - just kidding.

Library of Alexandria: should definately stay on the restricted list. Imo its too broken on its own, and it would for sure establish some new, überbroken combo archetypes yet not seen and we won't like to see. And I don't want to see this as a four of at least in every control sideboard for the mirror.

Crop Rotation: should stay on the list, an instant, direct into play tutor like this can help too many archetyps - not just Workshops.

Chrome Mox: should stay on the list, as different to Mox Diamond this will help already established combo decks too much

Regrowth: should stay on the list simply for power reasons!

Enlightened Tutor: I am still frightened by a tutor that gives you Lotus or Necro on turn two, so this should stay on the list

Personal Tutor: I am as frightend by a Tutor, that finds you Tinker and Will on turn two and is blue, so this should stay on the list

Gifts Ungiven: this should stay on the list for power reasons. But I still don't see the logic behind unrestricting Gush instead.

Time Spiral: I am conflicted with this. Seems overcosted and so safe to come off, but in the same time it's a Draw 7 with a very powerfull advantage

Merchant Scroll: This should go on the list. It is just to boring to see so many tutors get played. While Brainstorm still has the random factor this gives you just exactly the card you want. This is what makes Flash and GAT annoying.

[Smmenen]

One of the fundimental flaws of the Vintage format that people complain about is that the format tends to be too fast.  Whether individually we Vintage players agree or disagree is a completely different story--but the fact remains that the overall perception is that the format is degenerate and too fast, luck based, degenerate.  In my opinion unrestricting a card that would almost certainly speed up specific decks which are already among the best in the format seems to be a mistake.  4x Mox Diamond is the kind of thing that would certainly lead to some decks having a higher probablity of drawing 'the nuts' and winning too quickly, too early.

But how does Mox Diamond help a player draw the "nuts" any more than Mishra's Workshop, Elvish Spirit Guide, Simian Spirit Guide, Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual or any number of unrestricted accellerants that do precisely what you described, but better?

[matthewCURBSTOMP]

If it would be amazing as a 4-of, it would be played as a 1-of.

If we go by this logic, how come we never saw a singleton gush being played?