Fish + Tarmogoyf. What to do?

[Campee]

Tarmogoyf seems like the best creature that Fish could ever ask for. A 5/6 for 2 mana? Yikes. Kinda puts Isamaru and Savannah Lions to shame. I'm trying to find a way to fit Tarmogoyf into the deck but have been struggling with it. I've been playing blue/white/black fish in vintage and have done somewhat well with it. Here's the decklist that I've played in the past:

1 x Ancestral Recall
4 x Dark Confidant
4 x Meddling Mage
3 x Daze
4 x Force of Will
4 x Duress
4 x Swords to Plowshares
4 x Brainstorm
3 x Jotun Grunt
3 x Aven Mindcensor
2 x Stifle
1 x Time Walk

1 x Black Lotus
1 x Mox Jet
1 x Mox Pearl
1 x Mox Sapphire
1 x Strip Mine
2 x Wasteland
1 x Island
1 x Plains
3 x Polluted Delta
3 x Flooded Strand
4 x Underground Sea
4 x Tundra

First, some random thoughts on Fish and some things I've tried.

This is a very solid deck, and it's mostly thanks to Dark Confidant. This guy is so good. Once in a while he ends up killing you when you flip over a force of will or two, but whatever. Needless to say, I'd like to keep him in there. Even though I love Dark Confidant, I actually tried cutting black for Goyf but it was a disaster. I don't see how I could cut white either. I even tried running Grimoire Thief to see if he could somehow make up for the absence of Dark Confidant/black and that was also a failure. I really think that Grimoire Thief sucks in vintage. I've heard a couple of notable vintage players suggest that he might be good but I have to disagree. Maybe you can get lucky and mill their only tendrils, but most of the time it's pretty substandard. You can't really afford to sacrifice him to counter a spell either because then you just slow yourself down. Also, if you play Tarmogoyf you can't really play Jotun Grunt. Losing Jotun Grunt really hurts. Everyone in vintage loves casting Yawgmoth's Will. Since Fish can't really play Yawgmoth's Will (or can it?!), you need a way to deal with it.. and Force Of Will doesn't cut it. There's also the recurring wastelands, goblin welders, Psychatogs, etc that Jotun Grunt slows down considerably. I thought about cutting white to play Blue/Green/Black but you need Swords To Plowshares, Meddling Mage, and Aven Mindcensor. So, how can you possibly play Tarmogoyf? I really want to play him in Fish but I just don't see how he can fit into the deck. I guess I could go 4 colors. Here's a 4 color list:

1 x Ancestral Recall
4 x Dark Confidant
4 x Meddling Mage
3 x Daze
4 x Force of Will
3 x Duress    (Should these be Thoughtseize? Kinda rough with Dark Confidant.)
4 x Swords to Plowshares
4 x Brainstorm
4x Tarmogoyf
3 x Aven Mindcensor
2 x Stifle
1 x Time Walk

1 x Black Lotus
1 x Mox Jet
1 x Mox Emerald
1 x Mox Pearl
1 x Mox Sapphire
3 x Polluted Delta
3 x Flooded Strand
1 x Savannah
3 x Tropical Island
4 x Underground Sea
4 x Tundra

No more wastelands and strip mines We're losing the disruption strategy here. But we're also making a faster clock with Tarmogoyf, maybe that'll make up for it. I could throw a Yawgmoth's Will in there, but I'll wait on that. We're really vulnerable to wastelands now also. The deck is a little faster now though with the 4th mox in there, and it kind of makes me want to play all 5, although that probably isn't necessary and will hurt the mana. First turn Dark Confidant is huge though and if you have an opening draw with a mox and a bob you're in pretty good shape. Maybe I could play Lotus Petal but I've always thought that card is substandard. Well, that's all I've got for now. If anyone has any suggestions or experience with the 'Goyf in fish, let's hear it!

[Duncan]

Have you considered DeezNoughts? It's basically fish, but just with Goyfs and a bigger clock.

[the boogie man]

have you thought about running vial? you could ease up your reliance on fetches and duals, and you could drop mindscensor and add kataki, who I think is better anyway. That way you wouldn't necessarily have to come up with uw for mage, then next turn come up with the black for confidant. this would also let you add in at least a couple strip effects. Maybe something like:

Edit: Rather than pollute the thread with another list, Here is a list I have been toying with. I'm just throwing it in in stead of my other suggestive one. This is uwg and I kind of wanted to try and fit rootmaze in as a major player. It seems weird in a gushy deck, but the vials help to ease up the loss of tempo.

4 confidant
4 mage
4 goyf
2 kataki

4 force of will
4 Root maze
2 stp

4 brainstorm
4 vial
2 walk/recall
4 gush
1 fastbond

mox g
mox u
mox w
black lotus

4 strand
3 sea
3 tundra
2 tropical
4-5 strip effects
1 island

since there is a heavily expected combo meta, you could toss chalice in the main or side without hurting yourself too much. I kind of want to find a spot for stifle, but The list is a little tight. Rootmaze hurts a lot of decks, and since I run a low-ish amount of fetches, I could avoid, or at least prepare, for it. Maze+wasteland against fetches aren't bad either.

[Necrologia]

One of my friends has been playing with a G/U/B fish list for a while. The last tourney we made it to he finished first in the swiss.

Tourney Results are here

Here's the list he used:

Sean Robbins (B/U/G Fish) 7th
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Waterfront Bouncer
4 Brainstorm
1 Regrowth
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Life from the Loam
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus
2 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Echoing Truth
1 Extirpate
1 Bayou
-------------
2 Duress
2 Diabolic Edict
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Oxidize
4 Trygon Predator

His screen name on the drain is The Duressed if you want to send him a PM. His current list is pretty close, except the bouncers have been cut for some maindeck Trygons. We're starting to see more Shops and fewer GAT lists around here.

[The Duressed]

It also runs Stifles main. It's pretty much 'Noughtless 'Noughts.

Edit:
I've gotten a couple PM's for the decklist, so I suppose I'll post my current build.

'Noughtless 'Noughts
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Trygon Predator
4 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Regrowth
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Life from the Loam
4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize
3 Stifle
1 Echoing Truth
1 Extirpate
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
current sideboard:
2 Duress
3 Threads of Disloyalty
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Trygon Predator
3 Oxidize
2 Diabolic Edict

My current build has a pretty heavy focus on mana denial, much more so than the build I played at Blue Bell in the link posted above. I went with the Waterfront Bouncers before because I figured I'd see lots of Dryads, but in fact I didn't see any of them. It's good because it was able to remove the +1/+1s from the dryads, but now that GAT is starting to go with warrens tokens and goyfs, it has become much worse. Trygons main are good against Stax, alright against Oath, and just enhance the mana denial plan. Also, they have 3 toughness, which is remarkably good right now, and they fly. Get a Jitte on one of these guys and you're golden.

Feel free to post any questions you might have. (I hope I'm not threadjacking-- this seems like the discussion that Campee wanted to be having)

[Stormanimagus]

IMO, two of the best shells to squeeze goyf into are Dawn Of The Dead (aka, Squee/Bazaar.dec) or, my little RGub Beats concoction. Red is an amazing color in Vintage right now and I cannot stress enough how important it is to have access to REB against Oath. It is very good in that matchup. Here's a list I'll throw everyone's way that I think is pretty solid:

GRusome fish

Land (17):
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Taiga
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Strip Mine

Artifacts (6):
1 Black Lotus (0)       (Proxy)
1 Mox Ruby (0)       (Proxy)
1 Mox Emerald (0)       (Proxy)
1 Mox Sapphire (0)       (Proxy)
1 Mox Jet (0)         (Proxy)
1 Lotus Petal (0)

Creatures (11):
4 Dark Confidant (1B)
4 Tarmogoyf (1G)       (Proxy x4)
3 Trygon Predator (1UG)

Instants (18):
4 Force Of Will (3UU)
4 Brainstorm (U)
1 Ancestral Recall (U)    (Proxy)
3 Artifact Mutation (RG)
4 Fire // Ice (1R // 1U)
2 Chain Of Vapor (U)

Sorceries (8):
1 Time Walk (1U)       (Proxy)
4 Cabal Therapy(B)
2 Duress (B)
1 Demonic Tutor (1B)

SB
4 Extirpate (B)
4 Stifle (U)
3 Pyroblast (R)
4 Red Elemental Blast (R)

One weakness I see in the deck is a lack of cards to pitch to FoW. That will have to be dealt with at a later time as I still think FoW needs to be run.

[The Duressed]

4 Cabal Therapy with only 11 creatures? How well does that work for you? Does Artifact Mutation really fix this?

[Nantuko]

@The duressed or anybody who wants reply me:What advantage do you think have this deck over TK Deeznaughts??

I play a lot TK and Its a nice deck but I think trinket mage and his toolbox its the weaknest part of the deck,so I try to play something like it,but the results arent all good that i can think.

Sorry for my english

[The Duressed]

I tried the singleton Dreadnought with Trinket Magi and the toolbox, and it just seemed clunky and didn't feel like it had enough synergy. With my Trygons and more utility cards that I can tutor up anyway, I feel more prepared for every match-up and I always feel like I have outs. When I started playing the deck, I really liked the overall feel, but wasn't a fan of the Trinket Magi; when I took out the magi and toolbox, I felt more prepared for what's in my meta--lots of shops and bomberman. Due to the new path that bomberman has taken recently, I could see TK having a better match-up against it than I have, but I'd be very surprised if his current build is the same that took a couple spots at the Chicago SCG events a while back. I might start fiddling with a TK 'Noughts list again in the near future, but I'm currently very happy with my build.

[hauntedechos]

Greetings Fish lovers,

It is I, Fish player, pushed out of the meta in the face of diversity.  Rejected for my puny utility dorks, unable to take a backhander from 'Goyf.  My arch type chastized for it's shamefull match up with the Druids and thier secretive Oaths and meetings in the Forbidden Orchard.....


I'll be honest here, I've moved on from Fish.  I've thrown myself into other archtypes that have a solid strategy strategy over being the pain in the skin mountains aaaannd I'll also be the first to admit that I love the archtype and have a hankerin' to play with the deck once again.  So what are the issues surrounding us?  Let's dive in and have a look -Dave, please feel free to jump in here whenever you like, on a theorhetical level of course.

                              "dear sweet, tender, 5lb 6oz. baby jesus, we ask you give our archtype a chance..."
                              *NP do0dz, just drop  for something that....works*

That was how I felt when I talked to the jesus of Fish.  It certainly makes sense and confirmed something that I was thinking about already.  Admittedly, with all the testing that I've been doing with Tog and  Shop, I haven't given Fish much more than a passing thought and lament.  After reciving a PM from Sean aka Duressed, I took a few moments to look over what I was thinking and what some communication with Dave (jesus of Fish) had revealled:  Jacob Orlove had a great idea that should never have dissapated, or in other words, add  .

                              "Sick of being an Ornithopter?  Start beating with  " (to the dialogue of the *stop cooking with cheese commercial* here in Canada)

Jacob Orlove won a Waterbury with his metagamed Fish list, lovingly entitled "WTF" or "Worse Than Fish".  It was fast and the creatures got out of hand quick and most importantly, no one saw it comming, outside of the Meandeck camp...bravo Jacob, bravo.   Unfortunatly, it then swam into the sunset.  It seems that now would be a good time to revisit the creature base of WTF at least, and consider the new all stars that could be added.

So what has changed in Vintage in terms of Fish?  We've added  for Confidants and the options of ThoughtSeize, Duress, Demonic and Vampiric Tutor, Extirpate....options basicly.  This leaves us with  and our look into  .    just doesn't bring enough to the table anymore, even Jotun is out classed and was never a good card in my books anyways.  Kataki is still some good -with the brown decks rampant as the buggers are- as is StP....so 7 cards basicly...not going to cut it.

  gives us a number of options to look at here.  Seal of Primordium, to replace cleansing (not unimportant when considering the Oath and Brown matchups), Regrowth, Life From the Loam (as Sean pointed out to me), 'Goyf (almost singlehandedly the reason we are switching over), Predator, Basking Rootwalla and Wild Mongrel or our own mini Tog.  Thats not too bad for starters is it?  We can then move onto lower tier creatures such as Blastoderm, troll asthetic etc, however I think that on the surface the casting costs may be a bit out of Fish's comfort zone.

I've given some more thought into the use of  in Fish and will continue to look into the matter.  I think it would be a good time to hand the reigns over to the rest of the Vintage community and hear some thoughts on the matter.

Just remember to evaluate:

1)What am I getting out of  that I can't from  ?
2)How do I make up for the matches where Kataki War's Wage and Orims Chant was really good?
3)What does "kippered" mean anyways?
4)How have my match percentages changed?
5)How will my personal play style interact with the new deck's attitude?
6)Why do they let Haunted continue to post?

Haunted.

[The Duressed]

I really feel that some version of Noughts (with or without the Dreadnoughts) is going to be the best choice of fish-y decks for the time being. In TK DeezNoughts and in my Noughtsless Noughts, there are so many amazing synergies between cards, and there are so many different paths to victory. I can't begin to tell you how many important games I've won solely on the back of recurring Wastelands with Life from the Loam. It's virtually a lock, and is also virtually uncounterable. There is space for tons of silver bullets and tons of utility cards, especially with tutors. The game plan that the decks use is fairly different than that of the old  fish build, but let's be honest-- the metagame is also very different.

Addressing a few key points: Trygon takes over fairly well where Kataki used to see play, and also has new uses (against Oath, for example. Also, it doesn't lose to Eon Hub). Seal of Primordium is there if you want to replace your Seals of Cleansing, but you've also got access to Oxidize, Naturalize, and Krosan Grip. In terms of the storm match-up (Orim's Chant), the gameplan has totally changed. You deny their mana, counter their key spells, and don't let them resolve the good spells. It sounds a lot like the old play style, except that you don't get to fall back on the ol' Orim's chant with backup. You need, dare I say, maybe a little more play skill. The deck is more like Sullivan Solution in that sense, except they played Erayo as well. I personally feel like this type of deck has to sacrifice the utter storm-owning bombs for better matches against the metagame overall; storm doesn't seem to constitute a huge portion of decks being played right now.

Just my thoughts.
-Duressed

[hauntedechos]

Well, I'm not sure how well discussion of Noughts fits into this thread, but certainly it may be a deck to look to for thoes playing Fish in the current metagame.

In concerns with predator, I think I would have to agree at least somewhat with it's inclusion.  I haven't tested a  Fish list as of this post, however it certainly seems as though that is the colour that Fish needs to include to remain competative.  It does have some abilities that overlap  , given wizards attempt to modify the colour wheel as of late.  A focus for Fish players is the Oath matchup in the current meta, it's always been troublesome and really needs to be a point of focus for Fish players.  Another concern is to remain efficient in the face of Shop decks, thorns won't bother us too badly, however keeping an eye on Sphere is important as well as moon effects and tanglewire.  Null Rod is still an option, however, without Kataki, we are working harder to address the brown players (that came out wrong didn't it). MUD/Shop/stax players threats.

Recurring and or tutoring strip effects is fairly important given the Gush/bond land light builds as well as non-basic heavy Shop decks..  It's only important if that is the point of attack that your build chooses to stress.  To that end, life from the loam seems to be pretty viable as Sean spoke on.

A few people have mentioned that with the power of the  creatures, the number of creatures themselves can be reduced.  This is good news for Fish as traditionaly the number of creatures have forced us to spread ourselves thin outside of the creature base.

So where do the rest of the Fish community stand on these and other matters?  We should like to hear more support for the Hate decks of the Vintage scene, so let's to it then mates.

Haunted.

[salthecarp]

I think it's important to consider the loss of Meddling Mage and Swords to Plowshares when you eschew white in a fish deck. You give up two solid answers to the Oath of Druids problem. Meddling Mage can also be the key to cementing a victory by protecting your board position from silliness like echoing truth or our dear old friend Massacre. A fringe benefit of playing white in a fish build is that these days if your opponent sees a Tundra, they will probably assume you're playing Bomberman until you prove otherwise.

[The Duressed]

Re: Meddling Mage--
You're right, this guy is good. The problem with him lies in the metagame. Say you're playing against GAT, dropping him on turn 2. Seems like a good play, but what do you name? Gush, right? Well, it just so happens that GAT runs some infinite answers to MM. Fire/Ice and Echoing Truth are common. Doesn't seem so bad, except that they also play Vamp, Demonic, Mystical, Scroll, Brainstorm, Ponder. If you say "Well, I can just keep him on the board with backup," I can say the same thing about just not letting them resolve the bomb spells. The difference between a fish deck running  and one running  is that the  build also has access to better attackers (not to mention decks like GAT opting for the Tarmo plan themselves), better mana denial (Life from the Loam is insane with your 4 or 5 wastelands, and Trygon Predator can hit that all-important mox), and, in my opinion, a better game against oath. You have all the same solutions that white would have, except you also get to run Krosan Grip, if you feel it's necessary.
Moreover, what do you do with Meddling Mage against Stax? Smokestack? Tangle wire? Metalworker? Sword of Fire and Ice? Against the most popular deck archetype in the format, Mage is a shot in the dark. The deck runs no card draw. They don't rely on just a couple key spells (like Gushes or Yawgmoth's Will). They just lock you out in whatever way the deck presents them with.

Re: Massacre--
1) Does not scare Trygon Predators or Tarmogoyfs
2) Costs mana against the non-white builds. If they want to pay 4 mana to kill your Dark Confidants, let them. You'll win anyway.

Re: Swords--
It's easily replaced by a number of cards that are still very strong. Diabolic Edict is my favorite, but you also have access to all sorts of interesting options that you may need for metagaming properly. Slaughter Pact is a good one, and Sudden Death can be too.

Re: Your scenario about Tundra bluffing--
I don't actually see how this is going to be very relevant. A deck like  fish needs to get the dudes down quickly, or get those Duresses out there immediately. You can leave an untapped Tundra for Stifle or Brainstorm funsies, but to be perfectly honest, either your opponent is playing around Stifle and you're wasting your turns, or you'll get that Stifle in there regardless. And, in any case, eventually the jig will be up. The question I have for you is: are you gaining tempo by pretending to be Bomberman? Fish is a tempo deck, and you absolutely can't afford to give them extra turns.

I hope I wasn't rude or anything. Let's keep this conversation flowing 
-Duressed

[feyd]

White's options are just as good as green's, in my opinion.  Swords to plowshares is the cheapest, most powerful creature removal white has.  Black is the only other color with a spell that approaches it's power level (diabolic edict).  If you are expecting other fish decks I think white has a good shot at matching their board blow for blow.  Green has a better toolbox for control decks via oxidize, trygon predator, rootmaze.  I think that if you believe tarmogoyf is a good enough reason to run green then you should run support cards on color in the side.  I think blue/white/black is a more controlling archetype for fish than blue/green/black. 
     There's also the option of not running the more traditional color combinations and branching off towards TMWA or urbana fish.  Red has some very solid support and direct damage cards that can replace anything that black,blue,white, or green can offer.  Good ol' lightning bolt counts as creature removal/win condition.  Price of progress, goblin vandal, stingscourger, and goblin tinkerer hold their own.  I think it comes down to what color combinations you like the most and what deck suits your playstyle more than choosing a traditional list with the "best" cards.  True, red might not have a great answer to oath of druids but I can tell you a timely stingscourger against oath can be just as devastating as a swords to plowshares or diabolic edict. 
    My two cents.

[the boogie man]

   I think that green is a pretty popular discussion topic because of tarmogoyf, mostly. Sure, red and white have good options, tarmogoyf, though, has the ability to end the game in four turns uncontested. He also holds back a large percent of anything an opponent will play, and he's only a two mana investment. They still have to deal with wastes, duress and force, trygon, and other stuff you may be up to. You don't have to wait around for 3 2/2's to go the distance. And he stays on the board much longer than grunt.

   Plus, green has oxidize and predator. you don't need to wait around for kataki to slow them down, you just blow everything up. predator is even immune to thorn, and he is a wrecking ball. Meddling Mage is a great card, but not only is the metagame extremely diverse, mage is already a deceptively hard card to play right. Plus, mud and stax are very popular, and mage isn't crazy good against them.

[feyd]

What I meant was that green seems like a more agreesive color to splash and that doesn't always fit into blue's game plan of control.  It seems to me having mana leak or arcane denial or daze in hand is useless if you have to cast your tarmogoyf to win.  I would say white plays more into the subtle control role than green does.  PLyaing white in fish might mean you have to sit on an aven mindcensor for three turns before you cast it at the perfect time and ruin the opponents game plan.  On the other hand what green has going for it is to throw caution into the wind drop a tarmogoyf ASAP and beats FTW.  Different win conditions call for different lines of play; whether it be more/less aggressive more/less controlling.  For a balls-to-the-walls game plan red/green/black or even just green and black might be best.  Eschewing conventional counterspells with proactive answer like thoughtseize/duress and chains of mephistopholes and the reactive answers like diabolic edict/infest/massacre can be a real beating...and that is only looking at black's cardpool which I have only touched on.  Red and green have some really very solid metagame cards which was evident in Jameson's R/G beatz deck.  Stingscourger, seal of primordium, pyrostatic pillar, ancient grudge are all very rounded cards which adress the decks really bad matchups. 
     The problem that tarmogoyf runs into sometimes is that you do run into resistance, whether it be an opposing goyf, a bigger robot, or a crap-ton of 1/1 goblins.  Jameson figured that he would rather throw caution to the win and make sure to clear the way for his beaters by any means necessary.  Spot removal, creture bounce, and board sweepers did the trick for him.  Tarmogoyf has absolutely no evasion whatsoever...he's just a big guy most of the time.  That's why whatever build you choose you should make it a point to clear the way for your hoard. 

[Rock Lee]

I'm a bit late on this thread from the OP, but a neat decklist I saw was this one from Tokyo recently:

from morphling.de
1. Ogasawara Sho
went (4-0-1)

Maindeck (60):
Spells (41):

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
3 Null Rod
4 Dark Confidant
1 Demonic Tutor
3 Duress
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Grimoire Thief
3 Stifle
1 Time Walk
3 Trygon Predator
3 Werebear

Lands (19):

2 Flooded Strand
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Strip Mine
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
3 Wasteland


Sideboard (15):

2 Extirpate
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Naturalize
4 Thoughtseize
2 Trickbind

You could easily sub out the werebears for goyfs and still maintain your solid fish shell. Predator is huge against oath and anything shoppy. While the dazes, duresses, and stifles give you enough time for grimoire thief or goyf to wreck their face. It seems like a solid build that "abuses" grimoire's drawback (having to attack), just slow them down.

[beder]

I am not so sure about this sentence "succeeding in adding tarmogoyf in a fish deck will improve it". Indeed, with the current configuration of most fish decks, they already have access to a solid beated that is also a nice "graveyard disrupter", mister jotun.
Sure, Tarmo is bigger, may be played sooner in the game and so is a more efficent clock. But you loose the "free graveyard disruption" effect of Jotun.
So according to me, tarmo by itself is not the real point. It's the whole green package that has to be compared to the white one. For instance, as it has been said, adding life of the loam in a deck that already runs brainstorm, fetch lands and wastes effect, is perhaps even more important than the tarmo/jotun replacement.
Just my 2 cents

[hauntedechos]

With Gat on the decline, and most builds of Storm Combo in check by sphere effects, what graveyards are you worrying about?  If you are looking at Welder reursion, doesn't e.Flux take care of that?  The only real issue I see Fish having these days is Sphere effects and TSOath.

Haunted.

[Duncan]

With Gat on the decline, and most builds of Storm Combo in check by sphere effects, what graveyards are you worrying about?  If you are looking at Welder reursion, doesn't e.Flux take care of that?  The only real issue I see Fish having these days is Sphere effects and TSOath.

Haunted.

Actually, welder recursion is a solid answer to EFlux most of the time. Welding artifacts out with Flux on the stack.

Fish doesnt care that much about Thorn imo. SoR is a different story.

What is a good way to fight TSOath? Green gives you Krosan Grip, white gives you MMage and Kami of Ancient Law/Ronom Unicorn. The combination gives my personal favourite weapon in fighting oath: Ray of Revelation.

[korgano]

placed 5th at the Eudemonia lotus tourney with a derivative of uwb fish similar to what the OP posted. I had a really good time with it and I only lost twice to a mirror deck where the only difference was that he sb'ed jittes, which I did not have. needless to say they are currently in my sb for the deck.

for coming vintage I was considering just throwing two thoughtseizes or so to make it a bit more with the times. however I get the general impression from this thread that the current meta makes uwb fish worse off then it was in aug 07. Is this true? I did play against goyf decks back then, and I was still able to handle them with fish, yet I am concerned...any thoughts?

I must say that I am quite enticed by The Duressed's Nought's. but the prospect of dropping 200 for 4 goyfs seems pretty steap....haha I suppose I could proxy.

[The Duressed]

I did some testing last night, specifically against Tyrant Oath. I found that a general fish-y plan is enough to disrupt them severely. By that I mean just using all kinds of Wastelands, Strip Mines, Stifles, Duresses, etc just messes with their plan so much. There have been numerous debates on Oath whether or not there were enough islands to run a reasonable gush-bond engine. With the huge mana denial strategy that we bring to the table, their chances of getting screwed are even greater.

Just a little tidbit I thought you guys might like to know.

[Serenity]

Hi,
first of all sorry for my bad english I´am from Germany^^

I realy like to play fishy decks, they`re my favourites 

I had played a lot uw and at least uwb fish and I`ve tried something similar
like the Duressed "Noughtless Noughts".

My favourite was UWB-fish, because it could handle all the decks out there.
With UWB-fish I was able to handle almost every deck in my meta.
But now I´m in trouble, the whole meta is going to be more aggressive and aggroish...
The Decks to beat arent anymore TPS, Stax or Oath...
The new Killer Decks are GAT, MUD/Aggro Stax, Tyrant Oath or something like that.
With my old UWB-fish I wasn`t able to deal with the top decks anymore..
Because I´m playing unpowered, I`m just to slow for Stax and I cant play UWB-fish like I want to (no Cutpurses, no mage or confi 1st turn)...
Aggro-Stax is a deck iam not able to deal wiith uwb-fish...

but I don`t want to drop my favourite deck typ, so I need to splash an other color...
my first thoughts went to playing green but which color should i cut?
I considered white to be the color to cut, because black is to essential to cut because of the "cardadvantage machine" dark confidant.

so what color should I splash ?
my first thought went on green because of the "killer machine" tharmogoyf and the oxidizes in sb...because I´m playing unpowered, I wasnt shure about the predators..
at least I played with 2 predators, nimble mongoose, were bears and goyfs, with jitte main.
The deck was able to deal with my horror matchup aggro stax, but it couldnt consistantly beat gat...

So I went on and I read this post about green in fish decks and i looked at the list from stormanimagus where red was played.
And I think back to the days where red has been the color used in fish builds, and so my thoughts went on may urbana fish be the deck to beat both stax and gat???

I tried it out and built a urbana fish deck, thats what i cam up with:

urbana fish (unpowered)



3 flooded strand
3 polluted delta
4 underground sea
4 volcanic island
3 wasteland
1 strip mine
1 mountain
1 island
---
20

4 waterfront bouncer
4 dark confidant
3 ninjas of the deep hours
3 goblin vandal
2 gorilla shaman
---
16

2 thoughtseize
3 duress
3 null rod
4 daze
4 fow
4 brainstorm
4 chain of vapor
---
24

---
60

SB:
3 mind harness
3 annul
2 yixlid jailer
3 umezawas jitte
4 leyline of the void

---
15

after some play testing i made the following suggestions:

the mana base is pretty good, 3wasteland is the right number in my opinion.
i wouldnt play fewer lands because iam playing unpowered and i dont want to
loose to stax or other decks with much mana denial or thorns or spheres or something like that...

the creature base seems to be ok, iam just thinking about adding goblin welder, to deal with bigger artifacts or welder artifacts out to lotus or moxen and kill them with the mox monkey...
playing mox monkey and goblin vandal looks also pretty cool and beats stax. also a high number of onedrops supports the ninja

the spells seems to be standart, but iam not sure about the chains.. maybe they should be something else maybe fire/ice or echoing truth or stifle..iam not sure about that at the moment...

also iam not sure about the sideboard, because i havn`t played this deck at a tournament until now...

what do you think? is that the right way to go if you want to keep playing fish unpowered? or do you like to play it ugb or even the old uwb? anny suggestions?

ps: I hope that this dont look like spamming with another list of fish, because it doesnt run green...
it`s just that i think that red is the better choice for unpowered players...
so please dont delete my post and keep on playing fish

so far

serenity

[Campee]

placed 5th at the Eudemonia lotus tourney with a derivative of uwb fish similar to what the OP posted. I had a really good time with it and I only lost twice to a mirror deck where the only difference was that he sb'ed jittes, which I did not have. needless to say they are currently in my sb for the deck.

for coming vintage I was considering just throwing two thoughtseizes or so to make it a bit more with the times. however I get the general impression from this thread that the current meta makes uwb fish worse off then it was in aug 07. Is this true? I did play against goyf decks back then, and I was still able to handle them with fish, yet I am concerned...any thoughts?

I must say that I am quite enticed by The Duressed's Nought's. but the prospect of dropping 200 for 4 goyfs seems pretty steap....haha I suppose I could proxy.

I was the person playing fish in the top 8 at Eudemonia =P

[Mantis]

At last tourney over here there was a guy playing Fish ending up playing the finals (not sure if he won). Although he was a very solid player, his deck looked pretty awesome. He was playing Force Spike, Confidant, Kataki, Meddling Mage, FoW, Waste + Strip, Jotun Grunt and Stifle. He was lacking Brainstorm.
Stifle is just awesome right now. It's the cheapest land destruction spell out there and singlehandedly stops Flash. Also stops an Oath trigger, can decimate Storm decks and counters the Bazaar trigger so you can waste it next turn. I would run 4 in every Fish deck.

Kataki is probably an unorthodox choice, but seems good nevertheless. It's a beating on Stax and is yet another mana disruption spell.
Then there's Force Spike, nobody expects it. Coupled with all your mana disruption people are going to have a hard time paying for the cost. 
I think we all agree Jotun Grunt isn't going to die because you can't pay the upkeep in this format. It's great against Ichorid, a 4/4 roadblock that disrupts the main strategy while Ichorid is trying to deal with it.

Hope it helps,
Mantis.

[the boogie man]

I know that this thread is getting old, but there are some cool things coming out in shadowmoor that are potentially useful in fish, And I really like ubg fish, so this seemed to be the best place to put it.

The first card that caught my attention was guttural response. This could be awsome side or main, depending on the meta. They basically cover a reb slot, and are some good versus a lot right now.

the next couple of cards are kind of grouped together. augery adept, fulminator mage, and vexing shusher could all be useful. I don't like how the mage and shusher are not blue, but the shusher would be a much more powerful tool in a slower metagame. Seeing as how wasteland is not the powerhouse it was, due to the speed of the game right now, coupled with low reliance on land in play, the mage may not be the best choice. The adept, though, is blue, can be cast solely on blue, and draws cards.

I think that wtf needs more good creatures, and these are what came up in shadowmoor. I really like the adept, but I think that dimir cutpurse or shadowmage do a much better job, especially shadowmage, who has evasion and 3 toughness. If you get a jitte on this guy, It could really be a beating. The one mana 2/1 could activate a ninja really well, but then again has no evasion, and neither does the ninja

As far as evasive beaters go, Could bitterblossom fit, or is it too slow? Either way, infinite chumps and an awesome place to stick a jitte. plus, it doesn't die to creature removal.

So here is my current list. I haven't implemented any changes with the rumored stuff (which is fro mtgsalvation).

land:

6 fetch
3 ug sea
3 tropical
2 island
3 waste effects
1 factory

4 artifact acceleration (mox x3 lotus)

win:
4 confidant
4 tarmogoyf
2 trygon predator
2 infiltrator

Draw:
4 brainstorm
1 ponder
2 ancestral walk
2 demonic vamp

Disruption:
4 force of will
3 stifle
3 thoughtseize
2 duress
1 engineered explosives
1 echoing truth

other:
2 jitte
1 life from the loam

Any thoughts?

[The Duressed]

It's an interesting list, but I have a couple questions:

The singleton Engineered Explosives and Mishra's Factory seem pretty random. What's your logic here?

Infiltrator is a tough call... If you have very few creatures to worry about, I would certainly go with Dimir Cutpurse over these. In any case, you're going to have a pretty slow dude here. That being the case, I think I would go with Cutpurse simply because he's much better against all the combo, and your goal against them is to make it to the long game. If you get down the Cutpurse, the game looks much better for you. The thing you need to remember is that neither of these creatures have evasion against Stax.

What's your metagame like? What does your sideboard look like?

[the boogie man]

I don't have a real metagame, So I lust play a pretty general list.

The logic of the engineered explosives is that it is just another part of the answers. It is good against some, like tokens and aggro, and the truth covers tokens and platz (hopefully) and colossus and such. The two tutors just make them more available.

The factory is simply just to add another threat to carry jitte and present pressure. i really didn't need another color source, and wasteland is much less important right now than it was a while ago. If the general metagame changes, then another waste would go in. plus, It is easily recycled with life from the loam, making one annoying chump blocker.

I agree on cutpurse. He seems much better all around. I have been trying to fit an extirpate in, but I don't know where. Maybe a jitte or a cutpurse?

[The Duressed]

Alright, Boogie Man, I think I can help. I spent months and months working on a build in much the same way that you are working now, and this was my most current iteration. I had Jittes in the main for a long time, but recently moved them to the side in light of the fact that they simply aren't fast enough. I tried to run Mishra's Factories for a while, but testing just proved to me that they were better off as more blue sources. Jitte makes any of your creatures into win conditions, this is true. However, this also means that you don't need to have as many creatures as  needs. I really was able to scrape by with 11 well enough. To be perfectly honest, playing a  build is actually rather limiting in terms of creature choice. Green seems to be short on good metagame guys, so the choice I took was to take control of the board and then win with 1 creature, which was largely successful.  beats can do a good job of messing with this plan, so it obviously isn't perfect, but the deck was designed to play a game plan where it started by just trying not to lose, and then attacked with guys after the game was pretty much won.

Another thing that you have to keep in mind on this note: Life from the Loam is awfully slow. I'd sideboard it, if you want it in your 75 at all. It just doesn't seem pertinent enough in today's metagame to warrant maindeck inclusion. It's not going to do the job against Stax, it's way too slow against Flash, and you'll be lucky if you get it to work for you in time to beat Storm variants or Oath. Generally it's the first Wasteland that really throws off their rhythm, not the 3rd or 4th. The recursion is very mana-intensive and seems to me to be very much a win-more strategy. There have been rare occasions wherein it was a win, but that can be said about many cards. It's also usually a miserable late-game topdeck.

Personally, I never felt comfortable with Dimir Cutpurse. That said, I also didn't like Shadowmage Infiltrator, for the same reasons: They're slow, and they don't have evasion in the match-up that they need it: Stax. The fact that Trygon Predator has flying makes him amazing.

Recently, I narrowly missed top 8 at a 40-ish man event with this build:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Trygon Predator

4 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Life from the Loam
1 Regrowth

4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize
3 Extirpate
3 Stifle
1 Echoing Truth

4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Mox
1 Lotus Petal
1 Black Lotus

Sideboard:
2 Duress
1 Extirpate
2 Diabolic Edict
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Oxidize
1 Trygon Predator
2 Umezawa's Jitte

(For the record, the maindeck Trygons unfortunately turned out to be a poor metagame choice. I'd never play this deck without them at least in the side, but it wasn't the right day to bring them to the main.)

The problem that I ran into with this deck is that it doesn't really have the ability to straight-up put the game away. Tarmogoyf beats are good, but the aren't always good enough. No, I'm sorry, 1 more 2-power dude and a Mishra's Factory are not going to push your deck to where it needs to be.

So, I wanted to mix things up a bit. Fortunately, a teammate of mine suggested that I play a deck that included a 12/12, and this got me thinking about a lot of things. To be perfectly honest, the deck for me started out as a TK DeezNoughts build without the Trinket engine. Having affectionately called the deck 'Naughtsless 'Naughts, the transition was not a rough one. Trygons are in the side, and I now have a 12/12 to win me some games. Here's my working list:

3 Tarmogoyf
4 Trinket Mage
4 Dark Confidant
1 Phyrexian Dreadnought

4 Brainstorm
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize
2 Extirpate
4 Stifle
1 Echoing Truth

1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
3 Mox

3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Sideboard:
2 Duress
1 Extirpate
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Tarmogoyf
4 Trygon Predator
1 Pithing Needle
2 Umezawa's Jitte

The list is still very much under construction, but I like it so far. It's entirely possible that Trinket Mage is the best card in this deck-- controlling when you draw a Dreadnought is very comfortable, and playing 5 Tormod's Crypts just seems so good. Also, Sensei's top can be nuts. The nuts and bolts of the deck remain largely unchanged, except that it now also has a 12/12 to win games.

I wouldn't pay a ton of attention to my sideboard; it's still very much on the drawing board.

I hope I've provided you with some useful insights    I spent a lot of time working on the same deck that you're trying to develop now, and it's a lot of fun to play. I hope you enjoy yourself in whatever you decide to do with it.

-Duressed