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Author Topic: Undefeated at Myriad's March 1st Event with Mana'd Ichorid  (Read 11658 times)
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Eric Dupuis

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« on: March 02, 2008, 11:26:36 pm »

The deck that drew me solidly into Vintage was Miracle Gro.  From when I first saw the Extended list, I immediately questioned how I could best include some of Vintage's best cards.  Since then, I have always looked at Extended as a source of potential decks.  The deck I played was basically the extended dredge list, but with some Vintage goodness crammed in there.  Bazaar easily replaces Putrid Imp.  Mox Sapphire, Black Lotus and Lotus Petal are extremely strong, leading to turn 1 and 2 kills when put to good use.  Ancestral Recall is of course amazing, with or without dredge.  Lion's Eye Diamond has been amazing at times, and marginal at others.  I experimented with two mana bases.  The dual land mana base allows for Reverent Silence, as well as Wonder from the sideboard.  The 5c mana base stops the potential color screw and allows for consistently hardcast creatures, Cabal Therapy and Emerald Charm.  With a 5c build, there are many more sideboard options available as well.  Evoke creatures, Ancient Grudge and Rey of Revelation are all much more easily used in the 5c build.  In the end, I think it is a matter of identifying the differences between the two, and determining which one is more appropriate for ones metagame. 

The deck performed very well, losing only one game.  This loss came from keeping a hand with Careful Study and Breakthrough, only to be stopped by an opening Land, Mox, Chalice at 1.  This was avoidable, as if I knew the contents of my opponents deck, I would have viewed the hand differently. 

I was happy with the explosiveness of the deck, and it allows for much more skill than Manaless builds.  Everything from opening hands to how to play Cabal Therapy is greatly magnified.  Were I to play in an event tomorrow, I would make a couple changes.  I would replace the Angel to a 2nd Cephalid Sage.  The Angel being black comes up more than the fact that it can be dread returned.  The need for an answer to Platinum Angel is the factor that would determine the slot more than anything.  I would also replace the Underground Sea with the 4th Cephalid Coliseum.  I went back and forth on this during testing, and I think the 5c Mana base can handle it much better than the Dual land base.  Coliseum is often better than Bazaar, which is a scary claim in a Dredge deck. 

Round 1 GAT Craig Dupre

Game 1 Craig wins the roll and keeps a hand that is likely good vs GAT.  I proceed to play Bazaar and ruin his day. 
Game 2 No Bazaar this game, but I have a solid 7.  He is forced to Mystical Tutor for Force, and then Accumulated Knowledge for one to slow me down.  I win shortly after. 

Round 2 Bomberman Oliver Beaumont


Game 1 No Bazaar, but the hand is pretty explosive.  Cabal Therapy is huge in this game, grabbing key cards and allowing me to get the win. 
Game 2 No Bazaar again, but Ancestral resolves early, and I empty a hand containing Brain Freeze and two Forces.  Mana Crypt takes some chunks off his life, and he mana burns to death from Draining a Dread Returns. 

Round 3 TMWA sans Mountains?  Dan Yarrington

Game 1 I win on Turn 2 despite having my Bazaar wasted. 
Game 2 He opens with Land Mox Chalice at one.  I look at my 1cc hand and wish I had Bazaar.  I die to Angel beats shortly after. 
Game 3 I open with some draw/discard.  He opens with Chalice at one.  I dread returns a Golgari Grave Troll and a Flamekin to get a huge amount of damage.  With Chalice at one, I'm certain he can't remove the Gravetroll.  He hardcasts Exalted Angel to try and buy time.  On my turn, I dread return my Angel to clear the way.   

Round 4 Black Shops Bill Copes


Game 1 He opens with Metal Worker and Staff.  I have an incredible start, and remove his entire hand.  It's over a the next turn.   
Game 2 He opens with Ravager and Skullclamp.  He goes to equip a Myr Retriever with clamp, and I break it up with Chain of Vapor.  On my turn I Cabal Therapy his hand, leaving him with no cards.  He sacs Ravager to remove some bridges, but I the damage gets done eventually and it's over. 

Here's the list

// Lands
    1  Underground Sea
    3  Cephalid Coliseum
    3  City of Brass
    4  Bazaar of Baghdad
    4  Gemstone Mine

// Creatures
    1  Flame-Kin Zealot
    1  Angel of Despair
    1  Cephalid Sage
    3  Ichorid
    3  Golgari Thug
    4  Narcomoeba
    4  Stinkweed Imp
    4  Golgari Grave-Troll

// Spells
    4  Cabal Therapy
    1  Lion's Eye Diamond
    4  Careful Study
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Ancestral Recall
    4  Breakthrough
    1  Lotus Petal
    1  Mox Sapphire
    3  Dread Return
    4  Bridge from Below

// Sideboard
SB: 3  Emerald Charm
SB: 4  Chain of Vapor
SB: 4  Leyline of the Void
SB: 4  Contagion

I think this list is a leap forward from Manaless Ichorid.  It gives more opportunities to make exceptional plays, especially with Therapy.  The number of Turn 1 and 2 wins is much higher.  If you have a discard outlet, and a Breakthrough, you're probably looking at a turn 2 win.  I have won Turn 1 through Leyline of the Void, and I am consistently impressed with the deck whenever I play it.  The mana gives you so many more options in the sideboard, which makes the deck much more adaptable.  The fact that Spheres do not shut off Dread Returns has come up often as well.  My favorite trick is easily hardcastting Golgari Thug, then saccing him to put Narcomoeba on top of the library only to be dredged back in.  Another fun play is saccing LED for mana, and then Dread Returning Cephalid Sage to end up casting a whichever creature you keep.  Overall, the deck gives you so many more options when playing, and is a lot more fun.  Enjoy. 
« Last Edit: March 03, 2008, 12:14:23 pm by ELD » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2008, 12:05:30 am »

Eric, congratulations on your excellent performance. Your new deck is very innovative and original. I'd advise anyone who claims that there is nothing new in Vintage to behold your deck. Time to test against this thing, I suppose.
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« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2008, 12:40:30 am »

Quote
Your new deck is very innovative and original.

I wouldn't go that far, considering all the mana builds thus far are literally Extended Dredge decks with Bazaar over some amount of Putrid Imp / Tireless Tribe. If it catches on, everyone will have to do like the Extended players have done and devote actual sideboard space.
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« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2008, 09:31:08 am »

Yes Eric in fact it is very innovative. Ive never seen anyone pilot an extended mana ichorid build in vintage never mind do well with it. Good stuff!
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« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2008, 10:57:10 am »

This is basically my list i won the ICBM open with a Month or so ago within like 3 cards main and side. Its a sick deck!
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« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2008, 12:10:02 pm »

The deck is indeed sick.  It has quite an upside.  The Shops match up is extremely difficult to lose.  Flash doesn't like the massive amount of zombies it quickly create.  The speed is increased to the point of Oath being a turn behind.  GAT has always been favorable for Ichorid, and that continues here.  Control decks have almost no chance without huge amounts of hate.  VS manaless, you both hit leyline, and then you hardcast your men while they struggle.  If people do not prepare for this deck, either by playing a deck that doesn't get squashed by it, or by sideboarding appropriately, I suspect it will be a huge force in the metagame.  The only "downside" from Manaless Ichorid is it is a lot more skill intensive, but I don not consider that a negative.  It will prevent many players from making the switch, and that is likely a good thing.  This deck is truly busted and I do not think the metagame is prepared for it. 
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« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2008, 01:06:53 pm »

VS manaless, you both hit leyline, and then you hardcast your men while they struggle.   

I have tested this matchup extensivey, with what I guessed to be TKs list at the time.  I was off by many cards.

I would like to comment on my experience.

In game 1 Manaless Ichorid has Leyline and you don't so you lose.  If this is the unknown mirror then this is less important since Manaless Ichorid will only open with Leyline 30% of the time, but if this is the known mirror then mulliganing to Leyline will win it for Manaless Ichorid almost every time.

Games 2/3 are actually in Mana Ichorid's favor.  The reason has almost nothing to do with hardcasting dudes.  It is not that hardcasting dudes is not important.  It is that both decks can do it.
The way games 2/3 play out is that both decks mulligan to Leyline.  Manaless Ichorid has an advantage here since it runs Serum Powder.  16% of the time Mana Ichorid mulls to oblivion, while Manaless Ichorid only does this 6% of the time.  21% of the time someone mulligans to oblivion.  Next, each deck wants to remove Leyline as quickly as possible.  Manaless Ichorid has a slight advantage here since it runs 10 Leyline removal spells, 6 of which are not symmetrical. This ratio is mitigated by the draw that Mana Ichorid has and the fact that Mana Ichorid runs more colored mana.  Incidently being on the play is very important in this portion.  Both decks run a full set of Chains and they really want to Chain their opponent's Leyline before their opponent has a chance to sac a land to Chain back.

The third stage of the game is where you race to win after removing your opponent's Leyline.  Here is where Mana Ichorid has an advantage.  While Serum Powder does wonders for helping Manaless Ichorid mulligan into Leyline, it does nothing once the game is started.  At the same time, Mana Ichorid has the advantage of running Careful Study and Breakthrough which gives it more ways to jumpstart the race once Leyline is removed.  Each deck could also Unmask or Therapy itself.
I was boarding out Therapies from each deck.  I am not sure this is correct since Therapy is a discard outlet to start the dredging.  I was also boarding out all of Manaless Ichorid's Unmasks.  I am not sure this was correct.  Unmask could steal Leyline removal on turn 1 or it could be used as a discard outlet.  I think I would be tempted to use Unmask on turn 1 to hopefully take my opponent's only Leyline removal spell.  It probably should come in on the play and then go back out on the draw.

Anyway, Mana Ichorid has a pretty huge advantage post board on the play, but it has a slight disadvantage on the draw since it relies heavily on Chain of Vapor to remove Leyline and this has a symetrical effect.
Overall Mana Ichorid has the advantage post board, but this advantage is wiped out by the fact that it loses the vast majority of game 1s.

This is my experience, but I was off by almost 10 cards so it may not all apply to your deck which looks to be better than what I was testing with.
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« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2008, 12:11:13 am »

congrats on your performance.

i'm curious, how does this square with your notion of playing the best deck until the DCI restricts it?  You said in the thread about Gifts that you played GAT until the DCI restricted Gush.  Then you played Gifts until the DCI restricted Gifts.   But the DCI didn't restrict anything.   You said that you took inspiration from Extended, but you previously explained that your deck preference comes from your avowed views as to what is best.    How do you reconcile the two?

Also, Team Reflection's testing suggests that the Tyrant Oath deck actually does not have a hugely unfavorable game 1 against Ichorid, going as high as 40% since it only needs to Oath once in order to win the game.  I have to wonder if that win percentage isn't even higher against you since their counterspells become relevant.  Although post-board you can bring in lots of anti-enchantment hate, Oath brings in Tormod's Crypts and Extirpates.   I've discovered that Tormod's Crypt is hugely effective against Mana Ichorid because it often relies on spells instead of a reusable resource.   Extirpate is also very good against Mana Ichorid where it is not against Manaless Ichorid for the same reason, allthough not as bombastic as T. Crypt.   But I would prefer either over Leyline agaisnt Mana Ichorid. 

I've long known that Ichorid with mana has been good, going so far as to top8 with Ichorid at a SCG event almost two years ago - in fact, I was the first to top 8 with Ichorid at a major Vintage event -- but I wonder if this isn't just the worst possible timing.  With Tyrant Oath on the rise, this seems like a regression in terms of metagaming.   

I'm not trying to trap you in contradictions or be an ass; i'm genuinely interested in hearing your thoughts.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2008, 12:21:06 am by Smmenen » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2008, 12:46:37 am »

I play other decks, but I do play the best deck at any event that I am doing my best to win.  I find it's important to know how to play all the decks in the format well enough to win events with them.  When I'm really keeping up with the game, I make sure to do just that.  I have won events with dozens of decks, and these were not the ones that I would consider the best available at the time.  This was much easier when there were weekly events in my area.  At one point, I was able to play in Vintage tournaments 5 to 6 times every single week.  During that era, I would sleeve up every new deck that looked any good.  Every variant of Long, new builds of Stax, new builds of Dragon, Rector decks, anything not terrible - when possible I get real tournament experience with the new contenders.  In the last few years, this has not been possible.  With Mox events replacing weekly Vintage events, I simply do my best to win each event I play in. 

I was happy to be able to to mix it up for this tounament, as it was an impromptu event and I expected less than 20 people.  This is very similar to the type of events that I used to be able to play so often back in the day.  I didn't think I would lose the event, as people would not be expecting me to be playing Ichorid.  While it is likely I could have won with GAT, I do not feel I was giving away any large advantage.  This is not to say I could not have lost.  The event was small, but the quality of my opponents was very high.  Everyone I played had multiple Mox wins under their belt, or was a frequent T8er in heavily competitive New England.  When people do not dedicate significant sideboard space to beating this deck, they will certainly have a hard time vs it.  Unless people start to bring tons of hate, I suspect it would be unlikely to not Top 8 with flawless play.  This puts the deck in the same category as Gush decks in my book. 

The Oath match has not been tested vs quality opponents.  I have been smashing the tar out of people on MWS, but that really doesn't amount to anything.  My gut tells me that the explosiveness of the deck is a strong asset, and Cabal Therapy is a powerhouse as well.  I feel this match is a race, and Ichorid is well equipped to win it, especially if slots are dedicated post board.  The 5c Mana base allows for many different answers to Oath, including Wispmare and Ray of Revelation. 

This build is so far beyond the older Ichorid builds, I hesitate to even think about them as similar decks.  This deck is able to win games on Turn 2 with tremendous consistency that it sidesteps many problems Ichorid can run into.  I think the biggest advantage of this build over previous ones is also it's liability.  The deck provides plenty of opportunities to make great plays.  It is much harder to play this deck optimally, and that may keep it out of the hands of many Manaless Ichorid players.  I do think this deck can and will succeed in the current meta if good players pick it up and learn the deck/match ups well. 
« Last Edit: March 07, 2008, 02:43:58 pm by ELD » Logged

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« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2008, 02:14:20 am »

ELD,

What's the basic sideboard strategy for this deck? You seem to have more options with the sideboard here than with manaless ichorid.

I imagine 4 chains of vapors always come in and probably taking out careful study (since they are weaker than breakthrough) in all matchups.

Against stax I could see cutting dread returns down to 1 (-2) and removing dread return targets (-2) (except for angel of despair) to bring in emerald charms. Chalice at 1 is rough though. Maybe though you found that this build plays out entirely differently against Stax and keeping dread returns in is optimal since you can build up mana to play them through a flurry of spheres.

Do you generally keep it at just the 4 chains of vapors going into game 2 provided that you won game 1 to see what kind of hate the opponent brings in and ramp up the emerald charms (versus leyline) and contagions (versus jailers, welders)?

As with all builds of vintage ichorid, since game 1 is generally a one-sided slaughter, the real game is played out in games 2 and 3 and struggling tooth and nail to break past the hate. It would be great if you could give us some insight into your strategies about sideboarding this deck.
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« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2008, 02:33:39 am »

I generally bring in 4x Chain of Vapor for game two, and make adjustments if there is a game three.  In this event, I only went to G3 once.  For that game, I actually went back to my maindeck configuration, after seeing the lack of meaningful dedicated hate.  For the Chains, I usually bring out the Angel, Sage, LED and a Breakthrough.  The logic there is making the deck less "all in" and more able to deal with situations that occur.  If I'm dread returning, or using LED, I'm already ahead, and post board you want cards that are good when you're behind.  The breakthrough comes out as I'm unable to use it to dig for answers, and the deck does not need to be quite as explosive post board. 

Shops are very difficult to lose to.  Barring welder tricks keeping Bridges off-line while creating blockers, there is practically no way to lose.  Spheres are terrible vs this list, as getting the one mana to pay is no issue.  If they drop multiple spheres, they are not as likely to be applying adequate pressure.  Ichorid and company set a solid clock, even without resolving spells.  I have considered Ingot Chewer, but it is not likely worth the slot.  The card functions very well, giving Zombies even when there's no target for him.  If I started losing to shops, I would certainly bring him back to the sideboard. 

The sideboard is wide open, as the 5c mana base allows for lots of answers.  The deck can definitely be tuned to fight in practically any metagame. 
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« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2008, 04:18:44 am »


I was happy with the explosiveness of the deck, and it allows for much more skill than Manaless builds.  Everything from opening hands to how to play Cabal Therapy is greatly magnified. 

I am so glad this deck is introduced to vintage. I used to abhor Ichorid as a deck because of it's lack of play skill.  This deck seems like it will challenge me.

Jeramey: No! Ichorid takes a lot of skill!
Louis: Yea it takes a lot of skill to flip cards from the top of your deck.

This deck seems like it took pressure off the post games. Do you think Leyline of Singularity will be a problem for this deck???
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« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2008, 04:24:57 am »

A good player can play around leyline of singularity much more often in this deck.  The normal gameplan is to get 3 bodies in play to return a Golgari Grave-Troll, and if you can manage, sometimes event the Flame-kin.  Hardcasting a Golgari Thug, Narcomoeba or even the Stinkweed Imp gives you the variety to be able to work around the Leyline of Singularity more often.  Of course, if you have access to the Angel, you can easily remove any problem permanent. 
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« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2008, 10:52:09 am »

I have found two major advantages with this list.  First of all of you are less vulnerable to Pithing Needle.  This shows up in two ways.  The first way is that you can use Careful Study/Breakthrough/Colliseum to go nuts without Bazaar at all.  The second advantage is that I mulligan less with this deck and am far more likely to keep a full hand so using the discard phase to pitch a dredger on turn 1 and casting Breakthrough on turn 2 to go nuts.  Although this list does better against a resolved Pithing Needle, the lack of Unmask makes it more likely to face Needle.  Have you considered Unmask over Contagion in the sideboard?  As long as you are running mana, I would guess that running 1-2 Darkblast and 2-3 Unmask would make more sense than running Contagion.  This lists ability to beat Pithing Needle is huge.  I cannot emphasize enough how important this is post board. 

The second advantage is that this deck is MUCH faster.  This does not come into play quite as much as thought.  I actually consider the resiliency against Wasteland to be far more important.  Being faster is good against combo, but if you are forced to drop Chalice, Unmask and Leyline in order to gain that speed then you are at no more of an advantage.  Against Control the speed is less important.  Where the speed shows up most is against heavy aggro + Wasteland.  With manaless Ichorid if your oppoent plays turn 1 Juggernaught and then Wastes your Bazaar then you have some problems.  This list is so fast that Juggernaught is insignificant and this list plays around Wasteland FAR better.

There are some drawbacks to this list.  I think Steve already mentioned all of these but I will mention them again.  Any Bazaarless hand is very risky.  Force of Will on a lone Careful Study can really ruin your day.  Also, Chalice@1 is a wrecking ball.  Even Duress or Thoughtseize on a lone Careful Study can really ruin your plans.  You mention that it is hard to lose to Stax, but it seems to me that if Stax drops Chalice@1 on the play then you are in a world of pain if you do not have access to Bazaar.  With GAT running 4-5 Duress/Thoughtseize and Forces, it seems to me that keeping any hand that does not contain Bazaar or multiple Careful Studies is very risky.
The final drawback is Tormod's Crypt.  Steve mentioned how painful this card is above.  What compounds the pain is that without access to Unmask or Chalice of the Void, you are far more likely to face a resolved Tormod's Crypt.  Again, replacing Contagion with Unmasks in the board would help.

Sweet deck and thanks for posting a list for all to see!
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« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2008, 10:57:45 pm »

Excellent deck, and congratulations.  Do you plan to run this in the future, or are you planning to return to 'Tog?

Also:
Do you need cephalid sage?  You mentioned you would like 2, as opposed to the angel.  It seems you would usually have better targets (grave-troll, flame-kin, angel) for Dread Return, and have plenty of draw/discard to Dredge with breakthrough, careful study, and LED.
You run 3 ichorids, 3 thugs, and 4 imps.  Do you ever have trouble finding a creature to remove to Ichorid?
Do you usually dredge or draw off your ancestral?

Thanks!

P.S. Ron Paul appears primed to win his congressional primary.  At least some people out there like freedom.
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« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2008, 11:28:21 pm »

Quote
Do you need cephalid sage?  You mentioned you would like 2, as opposed to the angel.  It seems you would usually have better targets (grave-troll, flame-kin, angel) for Dread Return, and have plenty of draw/discard to Dredge with breakthrough, careful study, and LED.

Hitting Sage almost always means game over.  It leads to putting your entire deck in the graveyard barring extremely bad luck (like accidentally lighting your deck on fire kind of bad luck).  This will get all 4 Narcomoebas and all 4 bridges, making the subsequent Flamekin lethal. 
Quote
You run 3 ichorids, 3 thugs, and 4 imps.  Do you ever have trouble finding a creature to remove to Ichorid?
Since Ichorid usually only has to come in once, I do find it's an issue.  The Angel is also black. 

Quote
Do you usually dredge or draw off your ancestral?
There are games where I open with Ancestral and see where it goes.  Whenever possible though, draws are replaced with dredges. 
Quote
P.S. Ron Paul appears primed to win his congressional primary.  At least some people out there like freedom.
I donated to $500 to that campaign ($4600 to the presidential).  There are plenty of people who still believe in what the USA is supposed to stand for.  I am certain we will either return to what made us great, or the we will see a Soviet Union style collapse.  Spread the word, ignorance is the greatest obstacle at this point. 
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« Reply #16 on: March 04, 2008, 11:51:43 pm »

Eternal Witness my function as an alternative to Angel of Despair.

Witness can get Chain of Vapor to bounce any hate that Angel of Despair would have removed.  The exception would be a land like Glacial Chasm, but that is unplayed.

Witness can also grab a Bazaar out of the yard and in that manner function as a mini Cephalid Sage.  The trouble is you still need to have your land drop free and this deck with 15 lands may be unlikely to have that free land drop.
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« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2008, 02:33:16 pm »

I think having a way to deal with Platinum Angel game 1 is very important and the Angel should stay.  I also believe this list is much more solid than manaless ichorid due to the fact of Chain of Vapor.  Chain makes sideboarding as a catch 22 easier to not lose game 2 then have to swap out strategies.  Also breakthrough is the stone cold nuts in this deck.  Good job ELD, I might have to play ichorid once (everyone has to do it once, like a fat chick obv).
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« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2008, 06:36:31 pm »

I think having a way to deal with Platinum Angel game 1 is very important and the Angel should stay.  I also believe this list is much more solid than manaless ichorid due to the fact of Chain of Vapor.  Chain makes sideboarding as a catch 22 easier to not lose game 2 then have to swap out strategies.  Also breakthrough is the stone cold nuts in this deck.  Good job ELD, I might have to play ichorid once (everyone has to do it once, like a fat chick obv).

Actually if Eternal Witness gets Breakthrough then it can act as a better version of Cephalid Sage.  The trouble is you have to have  {U} available to cast Breakthrough.
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« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2008, 09:17:58 pm »

Have you tried running Putrid Imp instead of Careful Study? It seems like Bazaar is a closer analog to Careful Study than it is to Imp, so my first instinct would have been to keep the Imps as a reusable discard outlet/black creature, and cut the Studies from the extended build for the Bazaars. With Imps over Studies, you would have 8 reusable discard outlets instead of just 4 Bazaar, which would make you better against Pithing Needle/Wasteland. You would have 4 more dudes to remove for Ichorid, and last but not least you would have 4 more hardcastable attackers (a 2/2 Flyer for 1 isn't bad at all).
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« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2008, 09:41:33 pm »

Multiple dredges win games, and that is only possible with additional draws.  Putrid Imp doesn't add enough to the deck.  Resolving Careful Study is often game over.  Resolving Putrid Imp does nothing on it's own.  A 2/2 flyer for 1 is a fine deal, but not compared to a card that usually amounts to "U - Draw 12 cards, Discard 2".  The games where you're not getting 2 dredges, you're digging for answers.  I would add Brainstorm before I added Putrid Imp.  That said, he is incredible in the slower formats. 
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« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2008, 11:05:33 pm »

Multiple dredges win games, and that is only possible with additional draws.  Putrid Imp doesn't add enough to the deck.  Resolving Careful Study is often game over.  Resolving Putrid Imp does nothing on it's own.  A 2/2 flyer for 1 is a fine deal, but not compared to a card that usually amounts to "U - Draw 12 cards, Discard 2".  The games where you're not getting 2 dredges, you're digging for answers.  I would add Brainstorm before I added Putrid Imp.  That said, he is incredible in the slower formats. 

On that note: have you tested Brainstorm over study?
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« Reply #22 on: March 06, 2008, 12:33:04 am »

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On that note: have you tested Brainstorm over study?

I have not tested any games with Brainstorm over Study.  I believe Brainstorm very good as an additional Breakthrough effect, but Careful Study is the equivalent of a Bazaar Activation.  On turn 1, you need either Careful Study or Bazaar, or some crazy all in hand with LED and Breakthrough.  I could actually see running Brainstorm over Ancestral in the deck, as well as replacing situational cards like LED and Angel.  Putting Narcomoeba back on top would certainly be a benefit.  IMO, mulling to 5 with Ancestral is a keeper, while I would not keep the same hand with Brainstorm instead. 

I think there is a lot of room to tinker with the deck, including cutting 1 or 2 Golgari Thugs.  I am happy with the current list, but I do not discourage anyone from testing the huge number of possibilities.  I think there is tons of room for improvement, but I feel this build is far beyond any previous lists.  I am glad to see that the community has been able to get past the scorn that many players have for this deck, and discuss how to make it better.  I feel getting all the solid options on the table is the best way to begin the refining process.  Eternal Witness may well be better than Angel.  Platinum Angel is rubbish vs GAT, Oath and Shops, as well as Bomberman, Goblins and so many other decks.  To me, an answer for Angel Game 1 is likely unneeded, and it's easy to answer post board. 
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« Reply #23 on: March 06, 2008, 11:06:47 am »

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On that note: have you tested Brainstorm over study?

I have not tested any games with Brainstorm over Study.  I believe Brainstorm very good as an additional Breakthrough effect, but Careful Study is the equivalent of a Bazaar Activation.  On turn 1, you need either Careful Study or Bazaar, or some crazy all in hand with LED and Breakthrough.  I could actually see running Brainstorm over Ancestral in the deck, as well as replacing situational cards like LED and Angel.  Putting Narcomoeba back on top would certainly be a benefit.  IMO, mulling to 5 with Ancestral is a keeper, while I would not keep the same hand with Brainstorm instead. 

I think there is a lot of room to tinker with the deck, including cutting 1 or 2 Golgari Thugs.  I am happy with the current list, but I do not discourage anyone from testing the huge number of possibilities.  I think there is tons of room for improvement, but I feel this build is far beyond any previous lists.  I am glad to see that the community has been able to get past the scorn that many players have for this deck, and discuss how to make it better.  I feel getting all the solid options on the table is the best way to begin the refining process.  Eternal Witness may well be better than Angel.  Platinum Angel is rubbish vs GAT, Oath and Shops, as well as Bomberman, Goblins and so many other decks.  To me, an answer for Angel Game 1 is likely unneeded, and it's easy to answer post board. 

Even perhaps running 1 sort of answer card (grudge, chain main) and witness could be great.  By the time you return the witness you'll have whatever answer in the bin you can answer what you need to (in process bouncing witness to re-return).  At least with that sort of set up the Witness does not have to find an answer but it could find a proactive spell like breakthrough or return bazaar to continue the chain.
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« Reply #24 on: March 06, 2008, 11:48:34 am »

In my experience with this deck there is no way you can cut the angel from the main. it is literally one of the strongest cards in the deck in my opinion. It is just to versatile to cut. I also agree with the need of two cephalid sage. if you ever dread return one the game will immediately end. If your going to run 3 dread return there is no reason to not run 2 sage it just speeds your clock by a turn in most cases.
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« Reply #25 on: March 06, 2008, 12:49:45 pm »

Also in how many cases do you actually activate Cephalid Colliseum?  You need to have it in play with another land annnd threshold.  I could see these being replaced by streetwraiths if mana is not the issue.  Running 3 street wraiths can speed the deck up quite heavily especially with running 4 bazaars and 4 careful study.  In my testing I never activated Colliseum and used it solely for U mana.  I think cutting the underground sea for the 4th city of brass is fine also. 

Turn 1 Careful Study 2 dredgers in the bin.
Cycle street wraith, hopefully hitting a bridge, bridge, moeba, and cabal therapy, X X.  This sets you up to win the next turn without a doubt and there is the chance for turn 1 wins. 
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« Reply #26 on: March 06, 2008, 01:02:27 pm »

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Also in how many cases do you actually activate Cephalid Colliseum?  You need to have it in play with another land annnd threshold.  I could see these being replaced by streetwraiths if mana is not the issue.  Running 3 street wraiths can speed the deck up quite heavily especially with running 4 bazaars and 4 careful study.  In my testing I never activated Colliseum and used it solely for U mana.  I think cutting the underground sea for the 4th city of brass is fine also.

Turn 1 Careful Study 2 dredgers in the bin.
Cycle street wraith, hopefully hitting a bridge, bridge, moeba, and cabal therapy, X X.  This sets you up to win the next turn without a doubt and there is the chance for turn 1 wins.

Coliseum lead to about half my wins at Myriad.  Threshold is going to happen on Turn 2 at the latest every single game.  If you're going off on turn 2, the Coliseum is often better than Bazaar.  Better than Bazaar in a dredge deck is pretty insane.  It gets around Pithing Needle, and is second only to Breakthrough as far as furthering your gameplan.  Lotus and Coliseum have combined in the vast majority of my Turn 1 wins as well.  Black Lotus, Cephalid Coliseum, Sac Lotus, Careful Study, Breakthrough, Active Coliseum is almost certainly dredging your entire deck for lethal.  The deck does need the land to produce Blue mana regardless, as the base is very slim as it is.  Without them, the draw spells would certainly be dicey at best. 

Two Sage is definitely worth cutting Lion's Eye Diamond over.  I am still not sure that I need Angel, as if I'm dread returning, I do not usually need to remove any permanents.  My last match vs Bomberman illustrates why this deck is so strong.  Game 1 involved a turn 1 Needle when I never saw Bazaar.  Careful Study was followed by a turn 2 draw spell, and then turn 3 Double Cabal Therapy cleared the way for the lethal Breakthrough.  I could have hit the Angel here, but instead hit Sage to get barely lethal with Golgari Grave Troll + Flamekin.  I also could have moved all in on Turn 2, but there was no need as he presented no clock.  Game 2 His turn 2 Meddling Mage hitting Therapy (presumably to protect his hand full of counters) was outclassed by double Bazaar.  I was able to get a massive board, and multiple dread returns online.  Scoopage followed.  My current build is as follows. 

// Lands
    4  Cephalid Coliseum
    3  City of Brass
    4  Bazaar of Baghdad
    4  Gemstone Mine

// Creatures
    1  Flame-Kin Zealot
    1  Angel of Despair
    2  Cephalid Sage
    3  Ichorid
    3  Golgari Thug
    4  Narcomoeba
    4  Stinkweed Imp
    4  Golgari Grave-Troll

// Spells
    4  Cabal Therapy
    4  Careful Study
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Ancestral Recall
    4  Breakthrough
    1  Lotus Petal
    1  Mox Sapphire
    3  Dread Return
    4  Bridge from Below

// Sideboard
SB: 3  Emerald Charm
SB: 4  Chain of Vapor
SB: 4  Leyline of the Void
SB: 4  Contagion

The sideboard is generic.  Wispmare and Ray of Revelation would be a fine choices if there is a ton of Oath.  Firestorm is a reasonable choice if there's a ton of aggro, but you generally crush them so it is likely not worth the slot.  The same is essentially true of Ingot Chewer, as you usually beat Shops.  Of course, if Chalice at 1 is a concern, Ingot Chewer is likely the best answer, though Ancient Grudge is solid as well.  As said earlier, I generally just bring in the Chain of Vapors, and see what kind of hate I'm up against. 
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« Reply #27 on: March 07, 2008, 06:10:34 am »

Congratulations on your finish, the deck indeed looks very impressive and surprisingly similar to what I'm testing Smile

Did you ever consider a Crop Rotation?
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« Reply #28 on: March 07, 2008, 12:17:07 pm »

Hi,
congratulation for your great result !

Usually what do you side out in games 2 and 3 ?

You have considered pithing neddle against tormod's crypt ?
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« Reply #29 on: March 07, 2008, 12:24:22 pm »

Nice win ELD. I may just have to play this thing...it looks fun as hell and quite strong to boot!

Cheers,

travis
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