[Primer] Doomsday

[AmbivalentDuck]

{This whole post will be editted and improved as I have free time/boredom over spring break.}

Doomsday has traditionally been 'sold' as an incredibly difficult to pilot all-or-nothing combo deck.  My recent experiences strongly contradict that perception: I've played Doomsday as a control deck that *can* go all in when/if it wants to, but doesn't need to.

Here's a reasonable, but evolving, list.

// Lands
    4  Underground Sea
    1  Snow-Covered Island
    4  Polluted Delta
    2  Bloodstained Mire
    1  Swamp
    2  Volcanic Island

// Creatures
    3  Dark Confidant

// Spells
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Lotus Petal
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Mox Ruby
    4  Dark Ritual
    2  Thoughtseize
    4  Duress
    4  Force of Will
    1  Mind's Desire
    1  Tendrils of Agony
    1  Empty the Warrens
    1  Yawgmoth's Will
    1  Research/Development
    3  Doomsday
    1  Vampiric Tutor
    1  Demonic Tutor
    1  Mystical Tutor
    1  Ancestral Recall
    4  Brainstorm
    3  Gush
    1  Time Walk
    1  Chain of Vapor
    1  Extirpate
    2  Engineered Explosives

// Sideboard
SB: 1  Ingot Chewer
SB: 1  Empty the Warrens
SB: 1  Fire/Ice
SB: 3  Extirpate
SB: 2 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1  Pyroclasm
SB: 1  Slaughter Pact
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1  Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 2  Threads of Disloyalty
SB: 2  Red Elemental Blast

Along with the decklist, Doomsday requires a list of Doomsday piles.  The 'main' piles will carry you through pretty much everything you'll encounter, though you may occasionally need to invent one on the spot.  This is rare, and I've never had to do anything more than a simple substitution at a tourney.

After resolving Dday, you can:

Pass the turn (need UB open)
Ancestral
Lotus
Ritual
Mind's Desire
Research -> 2x Tendrils + defense of some sort

Cast Gush (nothing else needed)
Lotus
Ancestral
Lotus Petal
Yawgmoth's Will
Research -> Lotus, Petal, Tendrils

Lotus for UUU, Ancestral, Petal for B, Will, Lotus for UUU, Petal for G, Research for Lotus, Petal, Tendrils, Ancestral, Lotus for BBB, Petal for B, Tendrils

Cast Gush with Leyline in play (nothing else needed)
Lotus (for UUU)
Ancestral
Lotus Petal (for G)
Brainstorm
Research -> Lotus, Petal, Tendrils

Cast Brainstorm (nothing else needed)
Black Lotus
Dark Ritual
Yawgmoth's Will
Mind' s Desire
Research -> 2x Tendrils, protection

Those piles will probably carry you through a tournament.  Notice that none of them incorporate their own protection and none can win through Chalice at 0, 1, or 2.  I've presented minimal mana use piles: that means that when hate hits the table, Doomsday is more costly.  With any mana available, you should be able to make substitutions.  With all of this said, Doomsday is a bad combo deck.  The combo is fragile in the face of hate, a well-timed Extirpate means a game loss, and you run some suboptimal cards both main and in the sideboard.  So, don't play it like a combo deck.  Let's face it: Doomsday doesn't hold a candle to Grim Tutor as a Will enabler.

Once you understand that you *can* go all in pretty much whenever you want, you can also see why you wouldn't want to.  Example:

It's turn 1 and your hand is:
Mox Jet
Volcanic Island
Dark Ritual
Doomsday
Ancestral Recall
Thoughseize
Dark Confidant

If you try to combo out, you may succeed.  Or your opponent can be holding Will/Misdirection even though you have a turn 1 goldfish kill in hand.  By contrast, look at this hand from a control stand point.  If you drop the Jet and cast the Ritual into Thoughtseize and Confidant, then Ancestral after the Thoughtseize, you'll be in a solid position to control the first two turns of the game *then* go off.  Control here doesn't mean control in the 20 counterspell, 20 board sweeper sense.   Here, control means slowing down your opponent in a way that makes them vulnerable to your combo.  Most of your 'control' spells double as combo enablers or protectors.

Extirpate strips Drain/Fow from opponents' hands OR nails Gush to slow down Gro
Engineered Explosives destroys Chalice/Spheres OR destroys Fastbond/2cc green creatures/Zombie tokens
Empty the Warrens lets you go aggro OR eliminate aggro's clock
Tendrils lets you kill OR reset aggro's clock
Dark Confidant shows you extra cards AND chump blocks
Hand disruption clears the road for a win AND slows them down

This informs our sideboarding choices.

GAT:
-1 Mind's Desire (you won't be passing the turn after playing Dday)
-2 Dday (Multiple copies are about speed, you have to be incredibly cautious in this matchup)
-1 Tendrils of Agony
-1 Chain of Vapor
+3 Extirpate
+1 Slaughter Pact/Red Blast
+1 Empty the Warrens

The sum of your strategy is controlling their speed.  GAT is a faster combo deck than Dday.  That said, it's also quite vulnerable to Extirpate on Gush since that takes away both its fast mana and a lot of its card drawing in an uncounterable way.  We don't have much GAT in my local meta and the only time I played against it in a tourney, I had an explosive hand game 1 (1st turn Duress, Confidant, Ancestral) and the opponent was mana screwed game 2.

Flash:
-1 Mind's Desire
-1 Tendrils of Agony
-1 Extirpate
+1 Slaughter Pact
+2 Red Blast

Still haven't had an opportunity to playtest this.  Extirpate vs. the Reveillark version, this suggestion vs. slivers.

Generalized Ichorid:
-4 Duress
-2 Thoughtseize
+3 Extirpate
+1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Empty the Warrens
+1 Slaughter Pact (I've had grave trolls reanimated against me)

Extirpate >>> Ichorid decks.  I've never lost a match to Ichorid.  Either I leave them dead in the water with an early Extirpate on Ichorid or Narcomoeba, or just go off with Dday.  They have will likely have NO ANSWER to your pass-the-turn pile.  They'll play Chalice @ 0 turn 1 if they have it.

Generalized Aggro:
-4 Duress
-1 Mind's Desire
-1 Extirpate
+1 Engineered Explosives/Slaughter Pact
+1 Pyroclasm/Slaughter Pact
+1 Fire/Ice/Empty the Warrens
+2 Threads of Disloyalty
+1 Ingot Chewer/Development

Ritualing into Development or Ingot Chewer is better than it sounds.  Online and at actual tourneys, I can usually attribute aggro losses to Wasteland or failing to draw mana.  You board in enough aggro hate to play actual control if necessary.

Generalized Brown:
-1 Extirpate
-3 Dark Confidant
+1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Ingot Chewer
+1 Hurkyl's Recall
+1 Empty the Warrens

You're goal is to win ASAP.  Take out the cards that can slow you down, and win before they take control.  I don't like admitting this, but you'll likely win/lose based on who wins the die roll.  You need game 1.

[diopter]

Good primer. I've taken a liking to Doomsday myself, but I run with a full set of Gush. I must try main deck Dark Confidant as it seems like it gives you a low-commitment card advantage play. One thing I really like about your build is that it is not just a worse version of The Tropical Storm (which I sometimes feel my version is).

I would run Necropotence before the third Doomsday, as it is usually better for pass-the-turn kills. I am also curious as to how fast this deck can be if you push it. Confidants are slower (not necessarily a bad thing) but against some decks (such as Ichorid, or Workshop as you identified), you really want to win in the first two turns.

Great work!

[AmbivalentDuck]

but I run with a full set of Gush

Gush/Explosives are interchangeable.  If you want to win faster, run 4 Gush.  If you want more control power and resilience to hate, run the second Explosives.

I must try main deck Dark Confidant as it seems like it gives you a low-commitment card advantage play. One thing I really like about your build is that it is not just a worse version of The Tropical Storm (which I sometimes feel my version is).

Doomsday is a bad combo deck.  If you're playing a worse version of a good combo deck, you should try out the control angle.  Confidant gives you a lot of staying power.

I would run Necropotence before the third Doomsday, as it is usually better for pass-the-turn kills.

I had one in my sideboard for a while, but I wasn't a fan.  My strategy for using it may have been suboptimal, though.  How do you use Necro in Doomsday?

I am also curious as to how fast this deck can be if you push it. Confidants are slower (not necessarily a bad thing) but against some decks (such as Ichorid, or Workshop as you identified), you really want to win in the first two turns.!

You can 'go off' with Dday first turn, as shown in the example pile.  I've also had a first turn tendrils kill in a tourney off:

Black Lotus
Demonic
Will
Dark Ritual
Land (I think volcanic or underground)
Brainstorm
Thoughtseize


If you were building for speed, you'd cut the Confidants for Street Wraiths and Gush #4.  That said, I don't think you want it.  Going all-in too early will cost you games; it's certainly cost me games.  One time, against aggro, I opened with Ritual, Dday->Ancestral pile.  The opponent proceeded to cast Lotus Petal, followed by Hide/Seek, taking Research.  If I'd waited, I probably would have won.

There's absolutely nothing stopping you from putting 4x Xantid Swarm in the sideboard and a Trop in the main deck.  You could 'go off' with no fear.  The problem is, you're just too slow when/if you do that.  You've wasted a card to stop the opponent from interacting with you.  Instead, you could have used Duress to interact *better.*  Either by taking their interactive cards or by slowing down their strategy. 

[diopter]

Ok, so I decided to explore the benefits of Dark Confidant in the deck as much as I could. I added 4 Confidants, then changed the maindeck and sideboard around. My goal was to preserve the fast Doomsday engine as much as possible while retaining the midgame robustness and alternate routes to victory that Confidant provides. In the end I had to make a painful decision: cut all but 1 Gush. Here's what I'm testing:

// Main deck

3   Bloodstained Mire
1   Island
4   Polluted Delta
2   Swamp
4   Underground Sea
   
1   Black Lotus
1   Lotus Petal
1   Mana Crypt
1   Mox Jet
1   Mox Ruby
1   Mox Sapphire

1   Necropotence

4   Dark Confidant

1   Ancestral Recall
4   Brainstorm
4   Dark Ritual
1   Echoing Truth
4   Force of Will
1   Gush
1   Mystical Tutor
1   Research / Development
1   Vampiric Tutor

1   Demonic Tutor
3   Doomsday
4   Duress
1   Mind's Desire
3   Ponder
2   Tendrils of Agony
2   Thoughtseize
1   Yawgmoth's Will

// Sideboard

1   Badlands
2   Cabal Ritual
1   Demonic Consultation
3   Extirpate
3   Ingot Chewer
4   Leyline of the Void
1   Tendrils of Agony

I am going to miss turn 2 Gushing into Doomsday for the win, but I think turn 1 Dark Confidant into the nuts on turn 2 is just as strong. I feel that Confidant lets you make a lot of Doomsday piles not previously possible, since a simple attack for 2 opens up a whole host of 9-storm options. Also I like how I can combo out without Doomsday, that I can go beatdown into mini-Tendrils mode if, say, a Workshop opponent is hosing me with Spheres or something.

I'm not too sure about the transformative board, but my logic is this. The Doomsday engine is probably a turn 2.5 kill whose setup is now easily facilitated by Dark Confidant. If you need a faster kill, against say, Ichorid, you can board into more combo pieces (keeping Doomsday). Alternatively if you are facing too much disruption from, say, Workshop, you can swap Doomsday for the extra mana and board in Chewers too.

Time to test.

[AmbivalentDuck]

There's a lot I like about your list:

-2+ Tendrils is probably better than running Sins of the Past and the extra R&D, this doesn't leave dead cards in the SB.
Ie.
Ancestral
Lotus
Ritual
MD
Research->3x Tendrils, or 2x Tendrils + bounce

-4x Confidant and 3x Ponder means a lot more ability to find cards when desired, and strongly enables the control role.
-Maindeck Necro means that you will always outdraw your opponent.

What I don't like:
-No EE.  With ET, you're paying 3+ mana to bounce a single sphere.  With EE, you're paying 4 mana to destroy every Sphere, Dryad, Goyf, Meddling Mage, Thorn, Oath of Druids, and Zombie Infestation on the table.  I doubt this actually comes down to a metagame call.  The utility to also hit Fastbond and Chalice of the Void (if you're playing proactively) is similarly strong.

-1 Gush.  With 3+ Gush, you're practically assured off going off the same turn you play Dday without a mana investment.  This deck is not particularly mana hungry, so Gifts actually doubles as both a mana source and card drawing once I hit turn 3 or so.  I try to board out Mind's Desire once I know that being able to pass the turn into a winning pile is not critical, MD is easily the 'worst' maindeck card.

-Mana Crypt main.  Especially in your build, where's the mana go?  It's not like you'll be hardcasting multiple gush.  Seems like a lot of ouch for little gain.  I may be overlooking something, and I'm interested to here your reasoning.

[Stormanimagus]

So I've been rudely posting a D-Day list in the TTS thread because we somehow got on that topic, but I'd like to post it here to see what you all think. It doesn't run Gush/Bond but I think that may be better for the deck. Here's my list:

Doomsday 2008 Update

Land (14):
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Underground Sea
3 Swamp
1 Island

Artifacts (5):
1 Black Lotus
1 Lion’s Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire

Creatures (4):
4 Street Wraith

Instants (13):
4 Dark Ritual
4 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Research / Development
1 Hurkyl’s Recall

Sorceries (24):
4 Doomsday
4 Unmask
4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
4 Ponder
1 Mind’s Desire
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth’s Will

SB
4 Leyline Of The Void
3 Extirpate
2 Tendrils Of Agony
2 Hurkyl’s Recall
2 Snuff Out
2 Massacre

This seems a little off the beatin path, but I do think it could be a good choice as it packs a LOT of discard and Flash/Oath are pretty big right now. Thoughts?

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

@stormanimagus
With flash and oath being in the meta, casting doomsday and passing the turn could be fatal. I really think you should look into running some number of gush (and fixing the mana base accordingly) as a way to access your doomsday pile the turn you cast it (as emphasized earlier in this thread). Your probably thinking to your self "I've got street wraith to get into my pile, this guy didn't read/ think about my list at all". From my testing with doomsday lists street wrath just doesn't dig deep enough into your pile, nor does it add to storm. The ability to replay a land, if your haven't already, or be able to gush into petal + ancestral into appropriate doomsday pile will just add more consistency and versatility to your list.

[Stormanimagus]

@stormanimagus
With flash and oath being in the meta, casting doomsday and passing the turn could be fatal. I really think you should look into running some number of gush (and fixing the mana base accordingly) as a way to access your doomsday pile the turn you cast it (as emphasized earlier in this thread). Your probably thinking to your self "I've got street wraith to get into my pile, this guy didn't read/ think about my list at all". From my testing with doomsday lists street wrath just doesn't dig deep enough into your pile, nor does it add to storm. The ability to replay a land, if your haven't already, or be able to gush into petal + ancestral into appropriate doomsday pile will just add more consistency and versatility to your list.

I think perhaps you're forgetting about the other 8 ways I have to win on the same turn.

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

I'm not sure exactly HOW much mana you'd need to win off one of these, but it is at least possible. If we MD 1 copy of Tendrils I'm sure that'd make things a bit easier and perhaps that's what I'll end up doing. The Gush/Bond engine is sweepting Vintage like a plague right now and I'm just offering an alternative. That's all. I realize Gush can be good in this deck but I'm just not sold on it when we have other amazing potential hate cards that need a heavy emphasis on Black (Unmask, Extirpate and Duress/Seize). I'll have to continue tinkering with the list until I come up with something I really like.

[nineisnoone]

I don't think you can go without FOW.  Lacking a turn 0 play is rough.  Having to preemptively clear their hand is going to slow you down as well.  Doomsday or Duress isn't really a choice you want to be forcing the deck to constantly make.  And 12 discard is also a bit much.  Honestly, I would rather have some Hymns thrown in their as they'll at least give you CA relatlvely.  Hey, I like discard too.    

But yeah, I would switch out Wraith for Gush and some combination of Duress/Unmask/Thoughtseize for FOW.   Of course, now it's more like a typical list.

Now that I'm thinking about it...

I wonder if there is a way to work Gush and Grim Tutor into the deck.  Gush is just that good, and Grim Tutor is basically the "Merchant Scroll" of black.  (Funny how MS is still better though).  Granted it's a turn slower, but it grabs anything rather than just combo pieces.  I also like that it gives you another use for Ritual.  People did Scroll -> Recall/Gush.  Grim does come out a turn slower, but it also grabs Fastbond/Hate-Of-Choice/Doomsday.

Just throwing stuff out there.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

@stormanimagus
ponder still only digs one card deep, the same flaw as street wraith, and if you consider the numbers on brainstorm, into recall, it doesn't quite get you into full access of your pile. If those are your plan, you need them in multiples, this is sometimes a tall order, considering cards in hand and colored mana occasionally. You also seem to have misunderstood my comment, I'm not advocating gush because I don't think you have enough ways to access your doomsday pile, it's simply the optimal, most proven, way to access it. Also, I'd strongly suggest main decking ToA.

[XxtSundaybxX]

I completely agree with h3x, you posted a list In the TTS thread which youve seen people having success partly because of gush, gush allows you to dig 2 cards deep for free and then make a land drop. I agree that ponder/brainstorm/wraith just isn't gonna cut it. Unmask seems solid though but I mean you said your self it can be a control deck, so with this in mind why play unmask when your not really going for the turn 1 kill anyway.... You can just play combinations of duress and thoughtseize and FoW is a must in this format.